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Just so Pep's thread doesn't become about any one person, how can a BH effectively plan A a WW or WAW.
Is the MB plan to deal with a WW or even a WAW really only successful in restoring the marriage 15% of the time?
How does that compared with dealing with a WH, or a WAH?
What needs can a BH meet for his WW, or will any need meeting be treated as a love buster, too little, to late by the typical WW?
Is it wrong for a guy who tried the plans and failed to say he would not ever attempt them again, nor would he advise anyone to do so if they asked what they should do?
Will Dr Harley comment on any of these questions that I believe have been previously presented to him?
What are we to make of Dr Harley saying he would not seek to win Joyce back if she were to betray him?
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I just read some of your first posts on MB and boy did this forum SUCK back then.
Nobody would accept your conclusion that "I asked her and she said she wasn't having an affair and I'd be able to tell if she were lying"
I can't believe it took from early Sept. until November for you to figure it out.
Your posts on the prayer forum are heartbreaking (though you may want to go back and have first names removed).
I take it hard when I post advice and miss something or fail to properly advise someone correctly. It's a tough business COACHING people as it's a lot more responsibility than merely "counseling" (whereupon you try to draw out of a person their own conclusions and decision of what they ought to and want to do).
Your experience is yours and your perspective is valuable here. I asked Heartsore about regrets because I was upset over feeling like I failed him. It was important to me that he didn't feel like I made things worse for him as I spent a lot of time and effort trying to help. I've gotten much more used to "failure" here and much more aware of, as you say, likely outcomes...divorce.
Oh yeah...another difference btwn men and women. I think that it's harder to get a ww to end her affair than a wh but, if you do, a ww is more likely to do the MB work necessary to earn her "f" and commit to a full recovery than a WH who more often just want to bury it under a rug. I think one of the important goals of MB is not just to end affair and recover marriage but instead see that recovered marriage become part of the 33% or so subset of marriages that are marriages of love and extraordinary care.
In the end...15%, 20%, 10%...either way...either percentage...there IS a chance any betrayed spouse can and will save their marriage and by using MB they hopefully have a better shot at doing so and when they do they have a better shot of making it a wonderful marriage. I think if you run around and try to find another plan or tweak the plan to make the 15%, 20% or 10% figure higher...you're just giving up the end result. Only certain WS's have the inclination and ability to make it to a fully recovered marriage of extraordinary care and we can't predict or know before hand which wayward spouses are in that category.
[in other words...some "plans" suggest the betrayed spouse date others in an attempt to get the wayward spouse to wake up and come back to the marriage...to me...the "solution" of more adultery only makes matters worse...maybe...MAYBE in some situations it would work better (or just faster) than Plan A and Plan B but at what costs to the betrayed spouses integrity and very soul not to mention their chances at a true recovery (where they BOTH have to clear their wayward entitled foggy butt brains)]
Mr. Wondering Hey, I was (and still am) an engineer. I'm a little slow on the uptake when it comes to reading people. Now designing, implementing and maintaining multi-million dollar computer systems I can do in my sleep. Relationships and reading people, not so easy for me.
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EE, where have these questions been presented to Dr Harley?
Earlier, you said that you have asked him. Where and how did you ask him? My understanding is that he does not routinely read these forums.
An email to the radio show seems in order. I think these are important questions and I believe that Dr Harley will answer if they are brought to his attention.
I think it's a bit pointless our trying to guess his answers in his absence.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I've e-mailed.
Did so again today, the radio show e-mail address.
Never ever have I received a reply.
We'll see if I actually get a reply.
I don't expect him to read the forums. But e-mails to him via the MB Radio e-mail address have gone unanswered so far.
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I don't think anyone tells a guy things like that. However, I think many "interpret" plan A to mean just that. Meet her needs, don't make waves, etc. Nope, they dont' interpret any such thing on this board. If they do, they are soundly rebuked. By board members and by Dr Harley on the radio. WE tell them: 1. don't leave the home 2. don't let her take the kids without a court order 3. file for divorce on grounds of adultery if she won't stop 4. expose the affair wide and far 5. DEMAND - yes, I said DEMAND, which is Dr Harley's EXACT WORD - that she end her affair 6. confront the OM and tell him to buzz off So no, the only misinterpretation is on your part, EE. You apparently haven't been reading this board and don't know what goes on. Would have been great to get that advice from Steve Harley. That's the advice I give today, but it doesn't square with what SH told me back in 2003 when I was being coached by him. He didn't advise that I require my wife to get a court order to take the children. Nope, fill out the questionnaires, identify your LB's and her EN's and act on that information. Nor did he sound pleased when I told him I exposed the affair once I knew about it. FWIW
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The e-mail I sent today, me to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com
Dr and Mrs Harley,
How often does a betrayed husband who executes the plans, Plan A, Plan B, exposure actually witness a recovery of his marriage? I've seen the number of 15% bandied about in the forums. How often does the Marriage Builder plan to end an affair result in a recovered marriage for the betrayed husband?
If the 15% success rate is correct, then what have you learned from the remaining 85% of wayward wives who chose not to end the affair and build a satisfying marriage with their husband who wants a mutually satisfying marriage?
Thanks,
Me EE, where have these questions been presented to Dr Harley?
Earlier, you said that you have asked him. Where and how did you ask him? My understanding is that he does not routinely read these forums.
An email to the radio show seems in order. I think these are important questions and I believe that Dr Harley will answer if they are brought to his attention.
I think it's a bit pointless our trying to guess his answers in his absence.
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Now maybe 15% is the best possible outcome. If that's the case, then why not protect BH's and their families from the prospect of the WW not only getting the divorce she'll probably get, but also getting primary custody and a favorable division of assets? They can and do protect their families by filing for divorce and getting custody of their children. Many here have done that at our recommendation. While only 15% of affairs end in PLAN A, many more than that end in Plan B. [I don't have the statistic] Most marriages do not end over affairs - 65% stay together. So it is a mistake to assume that only 15% reconcile, 15% is simply the # of affairs that end in PLAN A. And in Plan A, most BS's cannot meet their spouses needs anyway. The point of Plan A is to pledge to meet the WS's emotional needs in the FUTURE if they end the affair. EE, I am catching up on your posts, but you have a very foreign view of Plan A that we don't have on this board. We bust up about 2 to 3 affairs a month using these techniques. And when a WW doesn't end her affair, we tell the BH to open up a can of Texas whoop [censored] on his WW and file for divorce on grounds of adultery. What is my foreign view, that it is ineffective in ending the affair. I don't for a minute believe that around 3x as many WW's are won back to their husbands due to plan B. But until I hear Dr Harley give some real life numbers, specific to WW's I tend to believe my impressions. The 65% number you give is not for WWs but winning back the entire population of WWs. So if BW's have an 85% success rate, winning back their WH, then BH's are going to have a far lower success rate. So how about we wait until Dr Harley says I'm wrong and provides some solid numbers? What percentage of BH's successfully win their WW's back to the marriage using the MB program consisting of exposure, plan A and plan B? Which measures are most successful. I.E. do more come back at confrontation/exposure, after plan A, or after plan B. Similar questions for BW's what are their success rates and at what points is success typically achieved. Other than duration, what the key differences between a BH's successful winning his wife back compared to a BW's successful winning her husband back. Are there significant differences in the success rates based on the gender of the WS? What are the keys that signal you and your team that that BS is likely to experience success if any? Are they different for WW vs WHs? Melody, I think most marriages can be saved, but that it will take both spouses ultimately becoming engaged in doing just that. How probably is it for a WW to join the MB team and what things can a BH do to improve his odds for a recovered marriage.
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Let me see if I understand. Are you saying most affairs end on D day, when the BH confronts the WW, she just up and ends her affair more than 50% of the time?
Or is it just the WS?
Are the results the same for a BH or a BW. Do WH's end their affairs more than BW's at this point?
I think the number who actually end their affairs on D-day is remarkably small, especially when we are talking about the WW. Given what we've read about WW's, I think that number is even smaller than the 15% who end their affairs as a result of the BH's plan A. If I were going to give an anecdotal answer to this, based on what I have seen on this board, I would place it at about 50% too. This would apply to both WW's and WH's. In fact, the WW count seems to be a little higher. When a BH stands up for his marriage like this, it is very appealing to the WW. Perhaps Dr H will weigh in and give us the results of his work and we can eliminate anecdotes all together. After all, he's worked with thousands of BH's as well as thousands of BW's. So maybe he'll answer my e-mail and we'll all know for sure. Or he'll post on one of these threads and put the matter to rest.
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I just read some of your first posts on MB and boy did this forum SUCK back then.
Nobody would accept your conclusion that "I asked her and she said she wasn't having an affair and I'd be able to tell if she were lying"
I can't believe it took from early Sept. until November for you to figure it out.
Your posts on the prayer forum are heartbreaking (though you may want to go back and have first names removed).
I take it hard when I post advice and miss something or fail to properly advise someone correctly. It's a tough business COACHING people as it's a lot more responsibility than merely "counseling" (whereupon you try to draw out of a person their own conclusions and decision of what they ought to and want to do).
Your experience is yours and your perspective is valuable here. I asked Heartsore about regrets because I was upset over feeling like I failed him. It was important to me that he didn't feel like I made things worse for him as I spent a lot of time and effort trying to help. I've gotten much more used to "failure" here and much more aware of, as you say, likely outcomes...divorce.
Oh yeah...another difference btwn men and women. I think that it's harder to get a ww to end her affair than a wh but, if you do, a ww is more likely to do the MB work necessary to earn her "f" and commit to a full recovery than a WH who more often just want to bury it under a rug. I think one of the important goals of MB is not just to end affair and recover marriage but instead see that recovered marriage become part of the 33% or so subset of marriages that are marriages of love and extraordinary care.
In the end...15%, 20%, 10%...either way...either percentage...there IS a chance any betrayed spouse can and will save their marriage and by using MB they hopefully have a better shot at doing so and when they do they have a better shot of making it a wonderful marriage. I think if you run around and try to find another plan or tweak the plan to make the 15%, 20% or 10% figure higher...you're just giving up the end result. Only certain WS's have the inclination and ability to make it to a fully recovered marriage of extraordinary care and we can't predict or know before hand which wayward spouses are in that category.
[in other words...some "plans" suggest the betrayed spouse date others in an attempt to get the wayward spouse to wake up and come back to the marriage...to me...the "solution" of more adultery only makes matters worse...maybe...MAYBE in some situations it would work better (or just faster) than Plan A and Plan B but at what costs to the betrayed spouses integrity and very soul not to mention their chances at a true recovery (where they BOTH have to clear their wayward entitled foggy butt brains)]
Mr. Wondering Hey, I was (and still am) an engineer. I'm a little slow on the uptake when it comes to reading people. Now designing, implementing and maintaining multi-million dollar computer systems I can do in my sleep. Relationships and reading people, not so easy for me. Yeah...I feel ya. Between MelodyLane, myself and many others we'd have convinced your engineering butt to, at least, snoop to cover your bases. I would have appealed to your logic and told you to trust, but verify and exclude the possibility based upon hard date and not speculation. Instead what you got was a board of coaches taking your words and speculation that the woman your trust with all your heart was moving out and taking the kids with her to get some space. My dad was an engineer. As a tax attorney, I believe we kind of think in a similar manner. Seems to me you were trained to test things...so getting duped when you should know you "don't read people well" should be substantially YOUR responsibility. It DID come up on the board in one of the first responses and YOU shut it down as impossible. Like I said...you'd have heard more fight from us now-a-days on the forums pushing you to snoop...ultimately you suffered the consequences of being too trusting. I snooped instinctively. My attorney brain needed data and information upon which I could hopefully make intelligent decisions. It seems to me that at some point...you CHOSE to be and to remain naive until the truth smacked you in the face. Sure the board could have insisted and Steve could have been more aggressive about it...but YOU weren't willing to go there in your head....YET. Frankly, it's possible Steve mentioned it and you dismissed so casually that he just believed you ---walk away wives do happen. This is really old stuff for you. Any chance you can "win" more custody of your children as they age. At some point they may CHOOSE you over her and her wayward lifestyle. Have you attempted to position yourself to gain their favor awaiting the day they may decide to "come home". Mr. W
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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I think my daughter simply has that wayward mindset. Admittedly she's on ly 12 going on 13. But as long as mom buys her every pair of shoes she wants and I make her live on an allowance while she's with me, the immature girl is going to choose mom.
I'm not going to get into the Disneyland dad mode to buy her off. Either she will want to spend time with dad, or she'll learn to manipulate folks and drain them dry before moving on to the next like her mother.
Since she cannot manipulate me, she really doesn't want to be here, so it is what it is.
So as long as she never sees her mother suffer any consequences for her choices, why would she choose the structure and rules in my home over the get everything she asks for at mom's?
It's my perception that she merely tolerates coming here, looking to get back to mom's as soon as possible, so she doesn't have the age appropriate chores she has here, or a room without a TV as it is in her bedroom here.
Her mother and I have very different views on parenting, and since mom appears more fun, and the grasshopper hasn't experienced winter yet, she wants to be there more than here.
Of course, mom can buy her a car, send her to college, etc, and I don't think she'll be able to do that on her income. Especially when the CS ends upon her graduation from HS as is stipulated in the divorce decree.
I paid my way through college, so I don't think any kid should expect their parents to pay their way through school.
But I know my view is not typical, so I doubt I'll find much support for that.
But somehow, I managed to pay my way through a top-25 private school and earn two degrees while I was there. So I think it works.
But that's not necessarily appealing to a 12 year old when mom can be santa using other people's money. (CS, money from her parents, etc.)
I try to set a good example. It's just not very exciting in this day of flash and all about me world we live in.
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What is my foreign view, that it is ineffective in ending the affair. But, you wouldn't know because you are not over here posting every day. I don't for a minute believe that around 3x as many WW's are won back to their husbands due to plan B. But until I hear Dr Harley give some real life numbers, specific to WW's I tend to believe my impressions. Keep in mind that your "impressions" are not based on any experience and are not any more valid than my "impressions" and I have been over here on the SAA board every day for 10 years. You are rarely here. So while we might not have exact #'s I would wager my impressions are more accurate than yours. The 65% number you give is not for WWs but winning back the entire population of WWs. So if BW's have an 85% success rate, winning back their WH, then BH's are going to have a far lower success rate. Please show me the basis for the 85% statistic you gave. And maybe you are right, but so what? So how about we wait until Dr Harley says I'm wrong and provides some solid numbers? And why are we waiting for "solid numbers?" For what reason? Solid #s for what? What percentage of BH's successfully win their WW's back to the marriage using the MB program consisting of exposure, plan A and plan B? Which measures are most successful. I.E. do more come back at confrontation/exposure, after plan A, or after plan B. I have no idea and doubt it is tracked. I only know that 2 to 3 affairs are killed a month on this board and those marriages are reconciled. Similar questions for BW's what are their success rates and at what points is success typically achieved. Again, dont' know. And don't know why it is relevant. I just know that it works sometimes. Sometimes nothing will work. EE, I don't see how any of this is relevant. Lets say that it only works in 15% of the cases, then so what? Does that mean that a person doesn't try? What is your point?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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My point is I think someone needs to know that going in.
I've said before that I think MB is the best plan. However, I've also said that a recovered marriage when there is a WW is not the typical outcome.
I think in the interest of full disclosure the BH needs to know the odds to make an informed decision. It's not enough to say this is the best program, it's key to say that it's your best chance, but even that is only an X% chance you'll end up with a recovered marriage.
After all, in the other thread, folks mentioned the idea of cancer patients, etc. Those folks are given the odds and allowed to decide. Do they want to fight, or do they just want the pain to go away and enjoy their last days.
So why not the same for a BH or BW? If someone asks the odds, then shouldn't we tell them? If someone is promoting the plan, shouldn't we also say that it's effective in X% of cases where it's applied?
If it is only 15%, then shouldn't we find out why it's ineffective in 85% of cases, in order to save even more marriages?
Do I expect all marriages to be saved? Nope. But given that Dr H believes most can and should be saved, if the numbers are 15% for BH/WW scenarios, then it's a legitimate question why the plans (or plan) only works in 15% of cases and doesn't in the other 85%.
And if I'm wrong, I'll shut up, apologize, evangelize, whatever.
But so far, Dr H hasn't answered my e-mails, nor has he posted here.
He is welcome to correct any faulty conclusions I've drawn. He's welcome to kick me off the forums, it's his place. He's welcome to say nothing at all. He doesn't owe me anything.
But I think it's a key piece of information that a BH or BW should have before they choose to implement the plan or not.
If there are significant differences in outcome based on factors such as the gender of the WS, then we need to know that so the advice and coaching is tailored to the circumstance, or so we can set the expectations.
I want to provide REALISTIC hope. So if the odds are better than 50/50 that a BH will win his WW back, let let him know. If they are not, don't we need to be honest about that.
What's wrong with radical honesty about the effectiveness of MB at ending an affair and restoring or creating romantic love in a marriage when a BH faces a WW?
Let's hear the RH about the effectiveness of the plans for a BH!
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My point is I think someone needs to know that going in. Well, you did get your 15% chance of Plan A working statistics from the web site, didn't you? I don't see anyone here trying to imply that the program works 100% of the time. Dr. Harley doesn't offer any such guarantees. No one can guarantee anything. So, who is being misled and who is doing the misleading? I don't see anyone on this site (Dr. Harley included) who is misleading anyone into believing that if they simply follow the plan in its entirety, they are guaranteed success at saving their marriage. That would be absurd.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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My point is I think someone needs to know that going in. And why is that? It is not like he has something to lose from trying. Given that we have 2 to 3 marriages saved a month on average, there is always hope. So I don't see your point. I've said before that I think MB is the best plan. However, I've also said that a recovered marriage when there is a WW is not the typical outcome. Oh, I don't know if I agree with that. I have seen too many recovered marriages with WW's. Even it is not "typical," it is very possible. It can and does happen here all the time. I think in the interest of full disclosure the BH needs to know the odds to make an informed decision. It's not enough to say this is the best program, it's key to say that it's your best chance, but even that is only an X% chance you'll end up with a recovered marriage. Again, what is the point, though? Let's say the % is only 15% [and in my experience it is actually higher], what if that discourages someone who could have saved his marriage? Wouldn't that be a tragedy if you succeeded in discouraging someone who could have saved his marriage? I don't understand your point unless it is to discourage other men from trying to save their marriages. It seems that is often your goal. Since you lost your marriage, you want others to give up too, don't you?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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But, you wouldn't know because you are not over here posting every day. Posting and reading here do not accurate statistics, just more anecdotes. Dr H has experienced thousands working his plans. What does his data say about the end results. How many working his plans end up with a recovered marriage? I don't for a minute believe that around 3x as many WW's are won back to their husbands due to plan B. But until I hear Dr Harley give some real life numbers, specific to WW's I tend to believe my impressions. Keep in mind that your "impressions" are not based on any experience and are not any more valid than my "impressions" and I have been over here on the SAA board every day for 10 years. You are rarely here. So while we might not have exact #'s I would wager my impressions are more accurate than yours. Am I rarely here, or do I merely rarely post? So you've been here two to three years longer than I have. So what? Anecdotes. What does Dr H find? The 65% number you give is not for WWs but winning back the entire population of WWs. So if BW's have an 85% success rate, winning back their WH, then BH's are going to have a far lower success rate. Please show me the basis for the 85% statistic you gave. And maybe you are right, but so what? It was a hypothetical. I clearly said IF, not as a fact, but pointing out that idea that the 65% figure you give is for all cases. IF (a conditional statement) BW's have a higher success rate, then BH's are going to experience a lower rate in order for the overall rate to be 65%. And if there are more BW's posting or participating in the plans than BH's, then the rates for BH's marriage recovery drop. WARNING, the below is a hypothetical example of how it works. Let's say we have 1000 cases, and since many believe that women are more likely to perform MB compared to men, we have 333 BH's and 667 BW's. Overall, we have a marriage recovery rate of the number you give, which is 65%. So that means for the population as a whole, 650 of the 1000 marriages will recover. Now if the percentages are the same for men and women, then that means that 216 men will save their marriages and 434 women will save their marriages. Now what happens if 70% of the women will save their marriages? If that's the case, then the women experience a recovered marriage in 467 cases. The men will experience a marriage recovery in 183 cases or 55% So the general trend is for every percentage point increase in BW success, there is a 2% loss for BH's. That's at a rate of 2 BW for every BH here. If the we look at 3 BW for every 1 BH, then the figures have the potential for being far worse for the BH while not differing much above the average for the BW. So if the results are largely different for a BH and a BW, you can't just present the average of both populations and treat it as a useful number, especially for the BH. That was my point with the 85% hypothetical. If BW's are 85% successful and outnumber BH's participating in the program by 2 to 1, then if the overall success rate is 65%, the BH success rate is going to be around 25%. So if that is indeed the case, then how helpful or accurate is the 65% number for the BH? Not very. So we need Dr H to tell us what the rates are and if there is more failure than success when implementing the plans, why is it and what is being done to address the failure rate? So how about we wait until Dr Harley says I'm wrong and provides some solid numbers? And why are we waiting for "solid numbers?" For what reason? Solid #s for what? What percentage of BH's successfully win their WW's back to the marriage using the MB program consisting of exposure, plan A and plan B? Which measures are most successful. I.E. do more come back at confrontation/exposure, after plan A, or after plan B. I have no idea and doubt it is tracked. I only know that 2 to 3 affairs are killed a month on this board and those marriages are reconciled. Similar questions for BW's what are their success rates and at what points is success typically achieved. Again, dont' know. And don't know why it is relevant. I just know that it works sometimes. Sometimes nothing will work. EE, I don't see how any of this is relevant. Lets say that it only works in 15% of the cases, then so what? Does that mean that a person doesn't try? What is your point?
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My point is I think someone needs to know that going in. Well, you did get your 15% chance of Plan A working statistics from the web site, didn't you? I don't see anyone here trying to imply that the program works 100% of the time. Dr. Harley doesn't offer any such guarantees. No one can guarantee anything. So, who is being misled and who is doing the misleading? I don't see anyone on this site (Dr. Harley included) who is misleading anyone into believing that if they simply follow the plan in its entirety, they are guaranteed success at saving their marriage. That would be absurd. I don't know if they are being misled or not. I think IF and you are a writer, so you understand conditional statements. If there is a large disparity between the BH's results and the BW's results, figures such as a 65% success rate can be very misleading. See above, if there are far greater numbers of women participating, but men are having far more success than failure, telling the man the overall rate of 65% success is indeed misleading. So as I've said before, let's hear it from Dr H himself. What is the rate for BH's executing the plans? What is the rate for BW's? Does he see as many BH's as he does BW's who implement the plans? If he does and they get similar results, I'm all wet. But I suspect he doesn't and he sees far more BW's restore their marriages than he does BH's, both implementing the very same plans.
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Let me put this another way, EE. If you agree that this plan is the BEST HOPE for reconciliation then why would it matter what the % of success is? There are really no good options in such a bad situation, but this seems to be the best I know of and it sometimes works.
When a BS comes here in such dire straits there is nothing to lose at that point and every thing to gain.
It is the same with alcoholics. In AA, they do not keep records of success. And they do that for a reason. Let's say it was LOW, then that might discourage someone from trying that could have very well saved his life. It is the same principle with this. It really doesn't matter what the percentage of success is, we only know that very often it does WORK and it works better than anything else we know of.
In view of that, I don't see how exact #'s would be relevant.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Joined: Sep 2003
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It's relevant to me, that should be enough.
Why is it relevant to you why I'm asking the question. I've asked it, I'd like an answer, shouldn't that be sufficient for you?
I want to know, period. You just have to accept that I want to know and that it's relevant to me. It may not be relevant to you, but because you are not me, it's not your place to decide what is isn't should or shouldn't be relevant to me.
It's relevant to me, that's all I need to tell you. It not being relevant to you will not change the fact that it is relevant to me.
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Joined: Sep 2008
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But its being relevant to you should not be a reason for your discouraging BH's from trying to restore their marriages using Dr Harley's plans.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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But its being relevant to you should not be a reason for your discouraging BH's from trying to restore their marriages using Dr Harley's plans. Exactly. Just because it's relevant to you personally doesn't mean it's relevant to the other BH's who come here trying to save their marriages.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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by BrainHurts - 10/19/24 04:02 PM
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