How much do you love her? Is it deep? Do you desire more of her? Do you learn fascinating things about her every day? Do you love listening to her? Is developing conversation skills exciting? Does she look more beautiful to you over time?

I've got to believe that I am depositing a lot of love units. I bet you are too. You seem very good at this. I wonder if there is some common feeling among people who married young and started the baby train. You just lose yourself in your twenties when work and family start to take over. Having fun becomes harder to do. We both put RC down in the bottom five on our EN's but maybe we both miss that a lot. My wife shared that with me....("We haven't just had 'FUN' like we did when we were first dating.")

Its so slow. I get little bits of fog lifting... little cracks. With your help NW, frankly, and the help of others I am learning to slow myself down and watch those cracks open, and use care with my responses to get a little tiny bit more open.... and carefully, carefully take the tiny bit I am given, cherish it, consider my response, and watch a little more open up.

After fifteen years of M I suddenly fell madly in love with her all over again last fall. What was holding her back? I did not know. Well on Jan 30 D-Day I learned a big reason. But I am still madly in love with her.

NW, our wives left us. Not physically, but they quit the marriage. It took them a long time to make that decision. It was wrong. It was abusive. They struggle to understand themselves and admit remorse or guilt. But the fact is that they did leave us and its really hard for them to come back. The Love Units we are showering upon them don't all hit the mark. Many do NW. Many, many do. I understand how you feel. You want to rush it. You want her 100% on the MB plan and right with you... excited about this new marriage.

I am taking it slow. I found that the slower I take it, the more I get from her in return.

stretch-

that last sentence is soooo true. I am anxious about the slow progress of things, the lack of momentum, etc. WW is happier now than probably any point in the last couple of years.

But as soon as I push just a little too hard, its as if she is reminded of all the reasons she checked out. There is clearly a cadence and pace to recovery and it can go no faster than the more reluctant party can handle and there's no way to accelerate it. Sometimes it seems like I can only make progress when she is unaware of it. I guess its a dance - you have to move in unison with your partner to the rhythym of the music or else it becomes just a mess.

Stretch I am glad you are doing so well. I read on Andys thread shes given you total access. I just wanted to mention that does not mean you don't snoop. Keep the keylogger if you have one.

And yes I know it sucks having someone tell you that when you are starting recovery and feeling good.

That makes a lot of sense and, now that I've read that, describes exactly what I'm noticing.

Unfortunately for me and my wife, patience has never been one of my strong-suits. But you're right, the slower that I take it, the more that I get in return. And when I push the limits, her limits retreat. Sometimes I cannot believe that I'm having to think so hard on this--almost reminds me of being a teenager and playing those "does she like me"?" games of adolescence.

I feel like I'm too old for this (at 33, yeah, I know) but maybe I just never learned anything the first time around.

EDIT: Stretch, I owe you one. Just when I posted this, W comes in (she had been asleep) and asked if everything was ok. We had a really good day today--it isn't hot yet and the weather is great so we did a lot of things around the house, cleaned out the garage, ate a crap load of crawfish, kids played with neighbor's kids and stayed out of our hair (ha ha)..a nice relaxing day. But she knew something was off and sensed that my "perfect" ending would be SF. Shoot, if she only knew that the beginning of my "perfect" day starts with that, she'd be overwhelmed.

So I borrowed what you said, about letting things go slow based on her and she agreed 100% with that. Talked about my patience and then impatience and wanting to get this fixed right. She said she felt like everything was going great, but then I'd push a little bit and she'd back off and then felt sad thinking that I thought she didn't love me. I said that it felt that way, she said it was hardly that. [It's the romantic love thing, actually] Conversation was only for a minute or so, but she basically confirmed what you said and we had a good talk and both felt better.

I added the red to your text for emphasis. You know, we all need to quit being so much like each other--it's unoriginal!

You described my current position in life to a tee, f4L and stretch, and I hadn't been able to put my finger on it yet. Thanks for that, you made me understand things a little better!

Stretch, NW, F4L - I'm really happy for you guys. You have a shot at restoring and improving your marriage. Sounds like taking it slow is a theme. I'll have to remember that, if I ever reach your level. LOL. The only thing you have control over is yourself, so that's an area you can always work to improve and the results will (hopefully) last a lifetime.

I just wanted to give you guys my support and encouragement, as you've all done for me on my thread.

Thanks Andy.
Update... we have a tough couple of days ahead. Here is what happened:

We talked yesterday afternoon a little more about intimacy and SF. This is something I wanted more dialogue about. In MC session a few weeks ago he told me to open up more dialogue. I hadn't. It intimidates me because it seems my wife always reacts badly and I always feel wrong for being honest about my feelings. I love her, SF is very special to me, and she is the only one for me. I really, really feel deeply connected to her. Perhaps because she is the only woman I have ever loved / or made love to.

So my wife opened some dialogue yesterday. She shared she was upset about something I said two weeks ago after SF. (I was wrong. It was immature and cheap comment. Teasing. Not cool. I apologized. I need to learn from that immature mistake.)

Also, she talked more about how she views SF as less important that I. Honestly uses it as a tool or reward often for her hubby. We agreed that later last night we would have SF.

Now I still don't plan on a sure thing. I figure it may never happen and my mind is always prepared to go without. During the day, I started thinking about her words: "using it as a tool and reward..." and "During the EA I would give you more when I was guilty or felt you were suspicious. I was covering up" Yuck ! Then, I realized several times when she was particularly guilty she gave me a specific SF act. Yuck again !

So I lay there with four layers of PJ's on that night, sleeping pill and Xanax, hoping she would forget our plan for some SF. Well she jumped into bed ready to go. I panicked. Should I? Grit my teeth and perform even though I feel like crap? Should I? Say I changed my mind, I just don't feel comfortable... no explanation? Should I? Tell the truth?

I just told the truth. I feel uncomfortable because I realized that all these times when you felt specifically guilty you gave me special SF attention.

She walked away, slept on the couch (I understand--what I shared really hurt.) And she is staying at her mom's for a couple days....

Maybe I should have said, "I just don't feel comfortable at this moment and I want to wait." But I don't think my feelings were dishonest. I feel used and abused now. I feel like crap. Is it just too soon and too raw to open up certain dialogues? Why are they off limits? Are they off limits?

Harley says on an article, "go slow and take breaks." Well, we have a two day break now.

Sorry to hear that, Stretch, but I think you did the right thing. Otherwise, you'd start to resent her and "wonder" about things when SF was going on. Not healthy.

Her reaction is a little odd-- get her to cut her visit short and y'all talk about this. Running away from a problem isn't going to fix anything and I imagine that's just how she's always dealt with conflict? Tell her (in a laughing tone so it doesn't sound like criticism or a DJ) that avoiding problems didn't work for y'all before, and it isn't going to work now, so come on back to the house and let's go over this and get it straightened out.

Perhaps she was just shocked that you stood up for yourself and, but sleeping on the couch and running off to mom's means she wants you to back down and feel bad for daring to question her. I'd wager it's pure guilt and posturing, and she knows that what she did was wrong and doesn't know how to handle it now that you know.

So ask her about it. Tell her how you felt when she said that about SF. Ask her if she understands why you would feel that way.

As an aside, my W said the same thing about SF some time ago...that it was all just for me, etc. My view of history doesn't really jive with that. But it's probably the cruelest thing I've ever been told.

Part of the revisionist fog.

Indeed, I own that I didn't cherish her or respect her properly. Heard this story before? The husband neglects the wife except he still expects SF. And she resents that after many years.

Yeah that's about how it goes and, for me, it's such a Catch-22. I rely on SF to really get that connection and feel trust for my wife, both of which were taken away by the affair. But now that she's removed my most familiar way of regaining a connection/trust, it's a bit difficult for me to "feel" something for her again. Sure, her conversations and other things she does for me are nice, but they don't carry the same weight. A double-whammy and I wish I didn't feel like that.

Well, good luck with your wife. You going to talk tonight?

this stuff has to be discussed. I would want to know why she stalked off rather than talk about the fallout of her actions. Is it her expectation that you just go forward and never discuss these things?

Trying for a minute to see it from her point of view, maybe she is excited that SF is no longer an affair management tool and is feeling connected too, and it seems like you're "punishing" her? IDK, but she definitely needs to tell you what's going on.

Wouldn't you think that she would have apologized or something? Going to sleep on the couch is such a strange reaction, and I'm sure it was a major LB or trigger for stretch. I just figured she was mad that stretch dared get upset by her behavior, and worse, he called her on it, and so she put on a show to make him back down in fear. Dunno.

Hope you've worked it out by now, stretch.

We are texting.

And also, everyone, fyi there is a convenient reason for her to be gone... Mom got home from the hospital after 9 days in with pneumonia. She needs a lot of care at home. Its great that she is staying at mom's to care for her for a couple days. And it raises no suspicions with the kids. I would have POJA her staying with her mom anyway. But this has the added pain of, "needing a break."

So we've texted. I have the impression she feels like she over-reacted some and is trying to make ammends. But she was hurt. That's hurtful to hear. But my feelings are honest. There was an affair and I feel used and abused.

I sent a few emails and underlined some passages in her favorite Affair book (non-Harley... but we have those too.) The written word in emails is often a great way to communicate with pace and precision.

I might get an email with her thoughts later tonight. I hope she calmed down. But I hate feeling like I kicked her in the teeth. She may believe that I actually TRY to hurt her. I don't. That thought breaks my heart. Of course we sometimes hurt the ones we love and it pains us to see that. But the foggy WW thinks her BH is actually trying to hurt her!?!?!? That makes me cry. But there is ugliness after an affair, and the can has been kicked down the road a long time. We are not in recovery. We are in Plan A I believe until she puts her ring back on (4 1/2 more months is what I think I can stand.) But even in Plan A the BS should let their very real hurt be known (no LB, AO, DJ of course.)

Oh, I thought she had gone to her mother's just because she didn't want to be around you. Was she planning on doing that anyways, even if the whole SF-event hadn't happened?

Sounds like you're thinking clearly, no reason to not speak your mind out of fear or anything. Hopefully y'all can have a good conversation soon once the emotions of the moment die down a bit.

Has she said why she isn't wearing her ring? I guess we know the answer, was just wondering if she had ever vocalized it.

This is painful for sure. We've talked about it and it hurts. Add it to the list.

Well, she never loved her ring too much. Guess I picked out an annoying setting. It pulled out her hair. Fuzz from gloves got caught. Scratched the babies face. So she would take it off a lot over the years. To her it was becoming a symbol of how hard the marriage was to maintain. Well... summer of 2009 she started almost never wearing it. She took it off and just could not put it back on. Actually, I hardly noticed that for over a year. Probably really reinforced how clueless she thought I was.

I asked if she would like a new one last Christmas and she said, "I'm not ready yet." I just about died and she knew it. First time I really realized it was so intentional to remove the ring and she had ambivalence about the M. I thought I was doing great after three months of solid work and commitment. Clearly, those were some $LB deposits missing the mark because we were still months away from my D-Day.

So... its been one only two or three times she ever wore it since June of 09. Actually, the first night she went out and met OM she was drinking heavily with divorced girlfriend at her house, and took it off as a joke before going out and said, "I will help you pick up guys." Her friends I am told were like, "WTH is going on with you??" But they went out, got drunk, met OM.... she was ripe for an A. And the cheerleading divorced friend plus the other unfaithful married friend didn't help. Running in a pack those three ladies.

I have some trust issues. Imagine that ?!?!

She's not still hanging around them is she?

Well, there were many nights after D-Day and Exposure day where I couldn't sleep at all. Slept on the floor several times, slept with the TV on, heavily drugged myself, slept downstairs on the couch, vomitted, hyper-ventillated, lost 20 lbs...

I understand her emotional response. After just being confronted with, "When you felt really guilty, you would perform something for me..." She felt vulnerable lying there in bed with me. I defend her. And POJA the visit to mom's too.

Just worried about the formal reaction now. We will deal with it. Maybe (hopefully) we can get real and move into actually repairing from the A.

They are like family. Can't separate them. Known em since they were all 13 yr old girls. Can't make em choose. They are "aunts" and both are godmothers to our children.

So I need to repair with them as well. I think they know its coming someday. WW has adamantly defended them. The "other people" are a distraction right now. We are worrying about my friends / your friends way too much right now.

We'll repair and recover with them too. They are part of the package. But they will all need to make some life choices. And girlfriend weekends simply have to modify groundrules if my trust matters... if our M matters! BUT... that's in the future during recovery. Not right now. Too distracting.

Guess I should clarify that going to sleep on the couch seemed like a strange reaction given where you are today.

Oh yeah, I did the 25-lb diet, trying to sleep on the couch, started smoking again, all that fun stuff during the worst of it. My wife--and it pissed me off to no end-- was always sound asleep by 9:00 seemingly without a care in the world.

Good that you have a feel for her response, hopefully y'all can both get a feel for what the other was thinking. I guess this is just a hiccup that we all seem to run into from time to time. Fortunately, from what I hear :), they start happening less and less. Sure hope so!

In theory, you'll start doing such a good job with each others needs that the toxic friends will kind of fade into the background. Too, she'll likely start seeing them as negative influences.

About the time my wife started her affair, our neighbors wife started one on her own. We socialized with them a good bit when we first moved here, and she and WW were friends. So toxic friend leaves her husband and two kids (ages 4 and 2) and moves to an apartment. They divorce. WW keeps contacting toxic friend and disagrees when I say that the toxic friend is a lousy influence, was a lousy wife and is a lousy mother.

Fast forward eight months later to yesterday when we're outside eating crawfish and the neighbors boy, now 5, comes over to play with our son. They had a blast and we fed the neighbor boy while we ate. W commented that she felt sorry for him, that he'd had it rough and his mother was a big problem for him. Ahhhh, what was that, a bit or reason that I heard? It was so nice to hear!

Things kind of work out by themselves sometimes.