I see this problem as very similar to the presence of actual violence, alcohol or drug abuse or other addictions: MB will not work while these things are present, and I don't think the programme will work if you have angry outbursts, including leaving the house for hours at a time.

I can understand leaving for MINUTES, in order to avoid saying unacceptable things and to gain control of yourself, but when you leave for hours, you are saying a big FU to Prisca and the kids, and you are tying to hurt her. You are hoping that she'll have a horrible time trying to cope with the 6 of them, especially if they known this is a day when Daddy should be home playing with them. You are hoping to make her REALLY sorry.

This is like those other conditions that Dr H speaks of because, while the angry outburst and verbal abuse exist, you cannot make sufficient LB deposits to create romantic love in Prisca. Indeed you cannot begin to compensate for the deposits you obliterated with your violence.

So you will schedule UA time and she will look at you with contempt when the time comes. You will long for affection and hugs on the sofa in the evening and you will wait a long time for them because she dislikes you. She will probably have sex with you, because she knows that this is a quick and efficient way of creating a lot of LB deposits for her, and you won't be as nasty to her for a few days as you might otherwise be. But the sex won't be "SF" for her, and it won't create LB deposits for her. Housework and playing with the kids WILL mean a lot to her but not enough to make up for the losses.

MB won't work if you kill the love with AOs. You know that, yet you still do it.

I'll just say that my H's disproportionate, utterly baffling, childish and ridiculous AOs years ago made me think that he must really dislike me and feel regret that he had ever married and had kids with me. I didn't think I was worthy of that regret or dislike, so it did not make me miserable about myself. I just thought my H was a lucky man who had a nice set-up with his wife and kids and who had everything to be thankful for, including good health and sufficient money. We had no real problems, although we did have a very naughty younger child. That was difficult, but we could have managed so much better if we didn't keep fighting each other over our son's behaviour.

My realisation that he disliked me, despite the positives that we shared, made my contempt for him insurmountable. How pathetic he was, to my mind to be unable to enjoy what he had.

Your anger is not just intolerable, markos; it is bringing about the end of your marriage, in one year or in five.

I think it's great that the two of you arrived at a mutual agreement, but do you think it's a good idea to carve out 15 minutes every evening for bills?

I know that would quickly derail the first time H or I decided we were too tired one night to do that. JMO - I'd sooner see you sitting down with the bills once a week instead of devoting scraps of time to them every night.

I know I'm late to this and some of it's already been covered, however:


Good grief, Markos. We can't very well help you if THIS is happening. You have zero leverage to be complaining about her DJs when you are being verbally and emotionally abusive. And on top of it, lying to us about the extent of your goof-ups.

I'm beginning to understand why she doesn't particularly want to spend time with you...but more importantly, do YOU understand why?

Markos, we aren't trying to beat you up but this is really serious.

Hopefully our posts describing how this affects US will clue you in as to how badly your behavior affects Prisca.

You SAY you understand but when it keeps happening, it's clear that you don't. Words are meaningless ~ your actions of stopping this atrocious behavior would mean you really DO understand.

I don't know how to tell you to stop having AOs ~ it sounds like you're in an anger management program. What are THEY saying you need to do?

And now, perhaps I can see why Prisca gave up doing MB months ago.

None of the activities - the UA time, the use of POJA, the identifying of ENs - none of them was making the marriage romantic because this anger of yours was obliterating all the good. Why would Prisca commit to UA time after a day in which you said anything like what you said yesterday? Why would she be happy with POJA when you used it to insist that she did a job (like bill-paying) that you had agreed was YOURS?

I wonder if you have been trying to use POJA to manipulate her in other ways?

No wonder she was done with MB. I see why now.

Excuse me, MF. I AM trying to beat him up BECAUSE this is really serious.

You guys are absolutely right.

SugarCane, you are absolutely right.

You are right, and I don't expect her to.


There is actually a difference of opinion over whether or not we agreed it was mine.

I became disgruntled last year when my list of responsibilities was growing larger. I told Prisca I was having problems and wanted to reallocate things. Prisca became very upset at me for not getting some tasks done. Dr. Harley assigned us material from his domestic support lesson and predicted we would continue to have conflicts over these things until we organized ourselves with a plan like that. We went through the first step and compiled a list of tasks that somebody needed to be responsible for, but Prisca wasn't willing to go any further.

I don't quite understand the details, markos, and I don't need to.

I'm concerned that I'm seeing your having used the MB programme, or parts of it, to get Prisca to do things your way. You went through some motions of doing things on your side - like going on the AM course - and yet these activities of yours have not changed the marriage for Prisca.

Or at least, they did; I remember her saying so over on 101, but they have not lasted. The very severe problem of your AOs and vile words (she will remember those) have not stopped, but you have been hoping for her to respond to you like a happy MB wife. When she did not, you have come to the board with incomplete stories in order to gain...what?

Have you really never understood the connection between your angry behaviour and her permanent state of withdrawal? Is that why you have come here and posted around the subject without identifying or acknowledging it?

I lived the above too SC. I have been reading this thread in disbelief....it is much like my marriage was. Those looking on just could not believe my XH could act that way. The board members here are shocked at Markos behavior...and it will destroy their marriage.

In my marriage, I did withdraw to protect myself. I too had a healthy dose of self esteem, so I knew it was him not me...but there is only so much one can take. My XH didn't see the connection...I am sure he still doesn't...if he had not gone wayward with multiple OW, I might still be living in that Hades. Of course in HIS mind he went wayward because I didn't give a *hit about him. Much like Markos is so hung up on Prisca's DJ.....when really as you are all saying, no amount of work on her part will save this marriage if he continues with the AO.

My biggest regret is not leaving my XH sooner. I shouldn't have waited for the OW to move me to divorce.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that you've lived with this too, SW.

Of course, the complication here is that, unlike in your case and mine, the abused became the abuser when Prisca had an affair. She also said more than a few abusive things to markos during it.

I would guess that unresolved anger over the affair had (has?) a lot to do with markos's behaviour. What do you think, markos?

"My way" has never been my goal. My goal has been to get to a point where we are living in a way that makes us both happy.

I have been unhappy about a lot of things for a long time.

Last year made it worse, on the whole, and I'm still dealing with a lot of bitterness over that.


I have been hoping for her to join me in the program. It is very frustrating to make changes and see that her changes did not last, or have her tell me she didn't care if she stopped being disrespectful to me or not.


I came to vent, which is never a good idea, especially for a person with anger problems. But I picked this forum to come to because I knew that people would not let me get away with wrong behavior.

Prisca just told me that she is glad to see me posting here, because she knows that I will be held accountable.

I am going to move from doing online anger management seminars to anger management therapy with Newton Hightower. Some might have seen the link I posted to his site awhile back, angerbusters.com . I have been viewing his materials and think it is much better than the first program I tried.

I was married at age 18 and stayed married for 26 years. For the first 10-12 years of marriage I had the same hot temper and said and did many hurtful things---and this sounds like justification but it is true---almost always in response to his AO which were crazy making. I did not like the person I turned into...so I got control of myself. I tell this to give Markos hope that he can indeed learn to control himself. I didn't have my son in those years. I worked really hard--beginning with things most people can't believe would require work...

I will not throw anything
I will not curse at all
I will not say hurtful things
I will not push buttons

I prayed a lot in those days. It was hard because I was being treated horribly still, but had vowed to not retaliate.

The funny thing is my XH never seemed to notice. I realized this one day when he was excusing himself for an AO and brought up my dish smashing....I said, 'I haven't thrown a dish in 5 years.' The look on his face! He had not even realized! He was so caught up in his own misery that he couldn't see the good deal he had.

And of course he will blame Prisca's EA for the resentment that is now making him out of control angry. I don't buy it.

If you think you need a program well, ok. I didn't use any program except my faith and prayer. I just vowed to get control of myself. It is in the thinking. But if you need a program, so be it. You will be divorced if you do not stop this nonsense.

Last year? What happened then? The EA was this January, wasn't it, so what are you referring to?

Yes, particularly many of the things she said as I begged for her to work on our marriage with me.

But none of that resentment justifies an angry outburst, of course.

Prisca spent the entire most of the second half of last year using my commitment to this program to get what she wanted out of me without giving much in return. She backed out of numerous agreements, while abusing me when I overcommitted myself to helping her and became unable to give her everything I'd agreed to. She demanded that we negotiate issues that were important to her without eliminating disrespectful judgments and other love busters on her part to make the process safe, threatening to withdraw from the program if I did not. Then she declined to participate in the program afterward anyway, and refused to negotiate issues that were important to me (such as scheduling concerns, budgeting, paying the bills).

None of that justifies an angry outburst, of course, but it certainly hurt HORRIBLY.

I wouldn't, either.

Markos ~

I just found this on Prisca's thread:


Can you comment? What are you doing to make her think this?

Reminder: Please be HONEST with us.