I wonder why I can't access Marcos's new thread

I wonder why it says no one has even read it.

I wonder if the same thing will happen to this new thread...

THUS...

a new thread about nothing is born. (at least it's not a website about nothing).

Mr. W

I am magic, MrWondering. I have super secret powers and can do things noone else knows how to do, like make threads noone can read or access.

I have a colonoscopy coming up next week with the double whammy of an endoscopy the same day.

There's something to talk about!

Discuss.....

The Colonoscopy Song

That is my contribution.

Nobody ever reads my threads, Mr. W!

Hey W, tried to email you while the forum was down. Can you give me your thoughts on my thread? I am mucked up a little right now.

Thanks

For anyone who really wants to know what that thread was about:

That's a piece of damage I inflicted while the board was down.

While the board was down it was possible to access posts and threads, user profiles, user posting histories, watchlist, and the front page of most forums. (Strangely I could not access the front page of MB101 yesterday, but could this morning.)

So I decided to try to post.

It blew up; the most recent created post was #2486041, and it told me it was attempting to create my post as #2486042, but there was already an entry in a table for a post with that number (apparently I'm not the only person who tried to post), and so there was a collision and my post was never created. But the thread had already been created. So now it's a thread, with no posts, which the UBB software doesn't expect can ever occur and doesn't know what to do with it, and trying to access it gives an error, so noone can ever post to it.

I think it should be harmless but a database admin could probably remove it if they wanted. Or we could keep it as a curiosity piece.

If the post had worked I was going to email a link to it around and watch it during the downtime.

Incidentally, since it was possible to access old posts, a great way to cope with the withdrawal and DTs yesterday was to go through somebody's posting history, like say:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=7840&view=posts

At least for those of us who can view his complete history.

There's plenty of other good users to follow around, too.

So what other exercises in futility do you enjoy?

tl

People that can't spell MarKos aren't allowed to read his thread, Dear!

Mrs. W

P.S. Reynolds, Mr. W just called me and told me about your post on this thread -- he'll be away from the computer until much later tonight, so he asked me to take a look...On my way over to see if there is anything I can add.

Look, I didn't say my superpowers were useful...

Originally I was going to make a big deal about that with folks, until I saw Prisca had spelled it with a C.

It seems that if majority rules, I'm marcos.

It's supposed to look Greek rather than Hispanic. I'm not either one, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

markos,

how about starting your own thread here? It does seem as if you might need help.

Hey, Markos? Tell Prisca to swing by her thread.

Okay.

I've been getting some pretty good help. I've been posting to Dr. Harley as well as emailing through our coach, and a friend from Marriage Builders has been talking to me a LOT on the phone and through email.

I'm focused really hard on trying to meet Prisca's emotional needs and eliminate controlling Love Busters. I started an anger management course and have read most of the materials from a second course when the first one didn't quite measure up. (Neither one is a 100% match for what Dr. Harley said to look for, but the second one is definitely much closer.) I'm trying to take advantage of every opportunity to be alone with Prisca and make being with her a pleasant experience.

You are working really hard on the marriage. Well done. Do you see changes in how you relate to each other?

Yes, there have been a lot of changes, and a lot of good moments over the last year. I can see the difference in Prisca when I've gone a long time without love busting her.

Right now I think my main job is to make these changes permanent. I "eliminated" AOs, DJs, and SDs last year once; Prisca even told me so. But "spontaneous recovery" occurred. I discovered new frustrating situations I wasn't prepared for, and they came back. So now I'm working on handling frustration, in general, learning to never respond with any of these behaviors in any circumstances.

What was behind your asking Prisca to post here, though? What has been the problem, from your point of view?

Disrespectful judgments.

But it seems Prisca and I are not on the same page. Since she told me she didn't know what to do to stop disrespectful judgments, I asked her to get help, but I don't remember saying she should post here; at her request I offered a list of possible suggestions including posting to Dr. Harley or talking with our MB coach, so I probably mentioned it as one of those possibilities.

And the conversation was over a week ago, and this last week the problem has been much better! So I thought that whatever she had done to get help, was working pretty well. There was a DJ last night, though, and she left our bed to sleep on the coach and isn't saying much today, so I am worried about what is going on.

Prisca's disrespectful judgments seem to come from an assumption that I do not care about her. When she feels something is lacking I'd like her to ask for it (and if I can't just give it to her I'd like her to be accepting of my feelings and point of view and negotiate alternatives with me), but sometimes what has happened is she starts the conversation with assumptions. She has told me I am ignoring her and that I don't care about her. She's told me that I must expect her to take care of everything by herself.

And she has argued with me when I've spoken about this problem. She's told me she wasn't being disrespectful, tried to explain to me why her DJs aren't DJs.

And she's gotten very mad at me when I've tried to disengage from dangerous conversations. I have spent a lot of the last year learning how wrong and hurtful it is to try to force her to talk about a problem, and I'd like to have the same consideration extended to me. When I feel like there is a DJ I don't want to discuss the details of it (our coach said that was a very difficult thing to do without a fight). Last year Prisca highlighted a sentence in Love Busters that said "If your negotiation turns sour, and one of you succumbs to the temptation of the Taker with demands, disrespect or anger, end the discussion by changing the subject to something more pleasant." So I think that she would like me to do that. But sometimes when I have tried to gently change the subject or indicate I'm uncomfortable with a conversation she has responded with DJs. We agreed awhile back that we would grant each other at least ten minutes to calm down at any time (that's how long Dr. Harley says to take when you are frustrated to get all the adrenaline out of your system and avoid an angry outburst), but sometimes when I have tried to take that long to respond (we still talk a lot by instant messenger while I am at work) she has gotten upset with me or told me I am ignoring her. And truthfully if we take ten minutes and start again and I'm still subjected to DJs, the conversation is still not safe for me to continue.

I gave Prisca several DJ worksheets last year but haven't seen a lot of response. I did these on paper for awhile, but I started doing them through email after one MB lesson night we scheduled, when I gave her my form and she wouldn't extend her hand to take it from me. I was left standing there with my hand outstretched with the paper in it and she just looked at me; finally I just let go and dropped it to the ground. The last DJ worksheet I sent I asked "Can we talk about these some time?" but there was no response.

markos, I am very concerned that you are barking up the wrong tree entirely and are getting frustrated as a result. If she has been in an affair all this time, then many of her complaints stem from that fog that comes with an affair.

A WW will manufacture and concoct grievances to justify her bad behavior. So, in effect she will have you tap dancing until you are practically dead in an attempt to please someone who really doesn't want to be pleased.

If she has been in an affair all this time, then of course nothing you do could persuade her to engage in the program. It is all a waste of time.

Has she ended all contact with her affair partner? Has she changed the conditions that led to the affair?

I agree with Mel.

Yes, she has.


I have felt practically dead and hopeless a lot the last few months. But my understanding is that the relationship did not develop until the beginning of this year; it hasn't been going on all this time.

Prisca has asked me how I felt about sending a no-contact letter to OM, and I'd like to mention here how I feel about it: I think it's a terrible idea. No contact is firm, FB is blocked, I warned another mutual friend that I felt that OM was a predator and should be watched, and I don't expect to ever see or hear from him again. I suspected from his behavior for awhile he was aiming for my wife (or any other woman online who would flirt with him; he is recently divorced and has abandoned any belief in morality), and I'd like him to either never notice us again or notice we've vanished and wonder why, not to suspect that there was any kind of a problem and think that this target might be a good one to continue to pursue.

Then I wouldn't see the need for the NC letter. It's your call, Markos. The value of NC letters are more for peace of mind for the betrayed spouse, IMO. If you're comfortable the Prisca is no longer engaging with OM and if OM isn't contacting you I would say let the NC letter go.

Really? You know better than Dr. Harley?

Personally, I think you BOTH should send this POSOM a NC letter. Markos, you should let him know beyond the shadow of a doubt that he had better stay far, far away from your wife, that you know alllll about their little game and you are not tolerating it. Prisca can add her own note in there that you didn't deserve this and she deeply regrets hurting you. Then you both sign it.

Additionally, I think you should expose him to any and all mutual friends. They need to be aware that he's a predator and needs to be kept far away from all married women.

Why are you so against the NC letter, despite Dr. Harley's opinion on the importance of it?

He won't think that if it comes from YOU. YOU are the protector of your wife and family and this is what OM needs to know...that you are going to stand up and protect Prisca and your family at all costs.

I think you are making a grave mistake in not doing this. What are you afraid of?

Maybe I'll ask Dr. Harley specifically about to clear it up, but here's my thinking on the matter.

This man is a predator. He was openly flirting with many, many women.

I do not know if he realized my wife was attracted to him or not, or to what degree. AND I DON'T WANT HIM TO KNOW. He can continue to try to build his Facebook flirt house, if he wants, without us.

Ironically, this is the man who first told to me, explicitly, that men and women can't be friends unless married. I had come to that conclusion on my own, and he reinforced it. After his divorce ... well, he knew just what to do.

I have heard Dr. Harley say that when you discover you are inordinately attracted to someone, you should tell YOUR SPOUSE, and NOT tell the person you are attracted to. I think that would be his advice in this case. Do you guys think I should ask, to be sure?

Nobody's ever accused me of claiming to know better than Dr. Harley before. I'm sure I don't. And if lots of folks think something dangerous is going on here, well, let me know.

We're six weeks out from D-Day, by the way.

I'm afraid he'll think "Oh, great, so she WAS interested!"

I think being the slime he is he will simply continue to cavort with the numerous women posting on his Facebook page. He may not have even noticed that we disappeared six weeks ago.

I will know immediately if he tries to contact either one of us. IF that happens, we will definitely take action. In that event, I am sure Prisca would be sending a no-contact letter.

I'm thinking it over and I can't even figure out how OM could contact Prisca. I think he'd have to get her email address from me.

I am virtually certain that he is not addicted to her as she was to him. He's just out swinging with whatever he can find.

But if I get any signs to the contrary, there will certainly be a forceful response, including a no contact letter.

I see...so this was a one-way EA?

This is what gives me pause about sending the OM a no contact letter. Markos, was this a one sided infatuation along with a little flirting or was this an AFFAIR? A romantic relationship? Because if someone has a romantic relationship, they don't question if the other person was interested.

He was coming on to her, but in my opinion he was also coming on to anyone else female who was posting to him. He was basically being extremely flirtatious and Prisca hung around to keep flirting. You're right, it's different from a full blown affair in that I don't know if he ever knew just how much he'd hit the target.

sounds like a private dr. harley forum question. I think your logic is sound. Why alert him that he was s problem at all and feed his ego. Probably better he just thinks he said something to tick her off and she's rejected his friendship, if he notices at all.

Mr. W

The cool thing is we had a joint Facebook account. So he may think I did something to tick him off.

Or, hopefully, he doesn't even notice.

I blocked him on a couple of other places where he and I had potential connections, and I don't think he has any connections to Prisca at all other than FB.

Markos, I agree with you that under these conditions, a nc letter might fuel the flame for no good reason.

I think Mr. W's advice is the most sound ~ ask Dr. H. I just found this on Prisca's thread:


I still think he needs to know Marcos is onto him and his dirty antics. I also think others need to be aware that this POSOM pursues married women.

No HARM can be done by Markos contacting him and telling him he knows and is protecting his W and family. If all forms of possible communication with Prisca have been blocked, then they're safe.

Same goes for exposure.

MarriedForever, what I might stir up is a situation where this guy starts trying to reconcile with ME or make amends to ME. He has what I consider to be a very slippery concept of religion, and I can easily see him doing what Delta_'s family did to her, trying to force her to reconcile with her sister by telling her she had to because she is a Christian.

Now obviously I would respond to that by taking more drastic measures to make sure I never hear from him again, but I'd rather not be subjected to it for what I see as so little to gain.

I think harm could be done in this way and I also think harm could be done by letting him know just how much of an impact he had on Prisca.

I have exposed this online-only friend to the only real mutual friend that the two of us have, someone who shared a lot of unusual mutual interests.

But just to be really good and sure, I'm writing a letter to Dr. Harley about it that I hope he'll answer on the radio show.

I know you will emphasize this but it was an EA.

One of the boundaries on the slippery slope to affairdom is the sharing of how you feel about each other. The reason you don't share feelings as this often leads to sharing of more feelings (real or not). Giving a predatory OM any access to the thoughts in your head, Prisca's head or your marriage is just feeding the demon.

Let's see what Dr. Harley says. I'd hate to think I was just buying into the rationalizations and justifications of conflict avoiding.

Mr. W

I could just take care of it, but if my motivation for just taking care of it is "so that I don't have to be subject to these disrespectful judgments," how am I going to feel?

I should have done it.

She didn't stop me from doing it. She never told me not to do it.

This is my job.

I have no idea how much it hurts her when I don't do it.

In fact, I have no idea how much it hurts her when I ask "Can we schedule 15 minutes a day for me to take care of it for you?" It hurts so bad she can't even respond to that, other than to tell me it's my fault because I could have taken 15 minutes a day any time. She sure doesn't want to participate in any scheduling, or offer any suggestion other than that I take care of it at 1 A.M.

I'm hardly required to do anything else. I hardly have anything else to do, I'm told.

It's paying the bills. Anyone can do it, of course. I'm embarrassed to admit it wasn't done. I know I should have done it. But it hurts worse to be raked over the coals for it by my wife.

Especially when I have brought up the issue, several times, over the last several months, that we don't have any regular time for me to sit down and do it.

I am tired of living such a chaotic life.

I want to negotiate it, not be DJed for not doing it.

I want to be taken seriously when I ask for time to do the job.

It would be okay with me for her to do it. I'd still want to keep tabs on it, and I'd probably need to schedule time to do that, too.

And after a day full of DJs on the subject, she wants to know why I didn't tell her a bill was late.

Yes, I should have told her.

It is clear to me that the most important thing here is getting the bills paid, not taking care of my feelings. Punishing me verbally for not getting it done is also ranking highly important.

Thank you for listening to me vent.

I guess I will just take care of it.

markos, slow down and talk in full sentences please!

Are you saying that the "it" is all about paying the bills? Does not having them paid on time make Prisca anxious?

Why do you get behind with doing the paperwork?

Yes, the issue is paying the bills.

Not paying them on time is very upsetting to Prisca, and justifiably so.

She has turned down many requests from me to do them with me, do them herself, or agree on a planned time for me to do them.

This is part of a more general problem: Prisca wants a lot of help from me, but we are so disorganized and chaotic that it is hard to get much done. I am happy to provide help. I am not happy to be the punching bag when something is left undone, especially when I have been asking for her to cooperate with me to make the situation more organized.

I am tired of the consequences that arise when I am overallocated and do not get everything done. The bills (and many other things) get done when they are a crisis, not at any planned or regular time.

I'm sure you guys can propose a lot of very simple solutions to getting the bills paid. I can think of many myself. But none of them overcome my real problem: Prisca's disrespectful judgments that occur when I want to negotiate a solution to the problem.

The problem for me is that almost immediately after the conversation starts, it turns to judging me rather than talking together pleasantly about a solution to the problem.

This is pretty simple, I'm confused as to why it's such a big deal.

You: Can we sit down tonight and make a plan for paying the bills?

Her: Sure, how about 9:00, after the kids are in bed?

You: Great!

--------------

What's there to DJ about that?

The above comments are what I heard from Prisca today.

I'm particularly stung by the statement that there isn't much that I'm required to do. I feel like every hour I have is spent doing something for my wife and family. And I'd be happy to talk pleasantly about changing up how my time is spent. Right now it's unplanned, and I'd like it to be planned.

I know, so I am confused as to why the response has been

During our FR, I turned over alllll the bills to my DH. It was one of the hardest things I have done.

There's been a learning curve. Recently I got a phone call that our CC payment was late, so I called him to find out how I could help.

I was upset but I did not get upset AT him. I asked him what I could to help ~ would a reminder call once or twice a month help? (He often pays bills at work).

Could I take over paying that one bill for him?

Could we sit down together each month and pay the bills?

We concluded that it was just a misunderstanding and the best thing would be for us to continue what we'd been doing ~ giving him time after work 1-2 times a month to pay bills. On those nights he's usually relieved of helping with the dishes so that we can both finish up at about the same time and have some UA time together.

Why is she so angry and unwilling to work with you on this?

Markos ~ be honest here.

Has part of the problem been that this continues to happen and your excuse is that you haven't had a chance to sit down with her to find a time to do it?

Do you blame the missed deadlines on this?

Because years ago when we'd been married about a year, when it was originally her job to pay the bills, they did not get paid on time, and I unilaterally and very disrespectfully took the job away from her.

I have long sense recognized what a mistake this was and apologized for it. I would like to come to a joint agreement about how to handle the situation, but we have never been able to complete a discussion about it.

I see...so you've both been guilty of not paying the bills on time.

It's a pretty simple POJA exercise.

A phrase that's been VERY helpful for us that helps us to avoid SDs AND use POJA is:

"How would you feel if (fill in the blank)." I think Kim helped us come up with that. We use it alot.

"Honey, how would you feel if I began paying the bills every other Monday night? How would you feel if I did it (fill in the blank ~ after dinner, after the kids are in bed, right when I get home from work, etc)".

I'm going to be honest that I should pay the bills. Even if she's disrespectful. I'm certainly going to make sure they get paid, now.

My problem is that she is disrespectful.

I spent all last year learning that even if she told me she was going to do something that if her feelings changed and it didn't get done I should respect that.

I would like the same consideration.

I don't like finding out that paying bills is so important to her that she is unwilling to follow the Marriage Builders rules that are designed to keep me safe in discussing it. We have a wonderful program to use to work through our problems, so why don't we use it?

I was beat up last year and made to negotiate several things when I felt very unsafe negotiating them. And then I found out she had no intention of getting to my issues. She did nothing to eliminate disrespectful judgments on her part. And now here is the exact same problem: she wants something, she browbeats me to get it.

I don't want to blame the missed deadlines on anything. I don't want to talk about who's fault it is. I want to negotiate a lifestyle that will make us both happy, piece by piece, including bill-paying and any other chores.

But I'm stuck in that we can't follow the guidelines to POJA in that Prisca doesn't follow ground rules to keep me safe.

Has this impasse continued even after the end of the EA?

Would you say that there is a greater desire from Prisca (and from you) to have a better marriage since the EA crisis, or not, or that things are even worse?

LOL...of course you don't, because some of it might be your fault!

I am not saying her DJs are acceptable...not by a long shot.

However if you are always blameshifting and using the excuse that the bills are late because "she won't sit down with me and find a good time for me to pay the bills", well...I think that could fall under a big giant LBer as well.

SO...you own your part and let her own hers. OK?

And that's a big problem. She needs to make it safe to negotiate with you.

Can you ask her to post on her thread her side of the story?

You said not to offer bill-paying advice but I want to know:

1. Do you over there have a system where you can instruct companies to deduct what is owed directly from your bank account on a fixed date?

Over here, that is called a "direct debit", and every last one of my bills is paid like that. Even my credit card companies are allowed to deduct the full amount on a fixed date so that I do not pay interest. If I'm not sure I can afford the full amount, I could fix a sum, like �50, and tell them to take that.

There is no such thing as "paying a bill" in my household, and this is normal for salaried people in the UK.

2. Is your income stretched so that you need to make prioritise a few things every month, and juggle between which bill to leave unpaid? Clearly, if this is the case, then my scenario above might be hard to implement.

She has done a lot more lately, in particular taking some initiatives toward getting back into this program that impressed me and made me feel like she is beginning to be serious about having a good marriage.

But we do still have the same problem of not being able to negotiate without DJs and other love busters coming in.

You are right, but is it not a good idea to try to follow a policy of finding a solution instead of finding blame?

We have a lot of bills that can work that way, and I've set up almost all of them that I think can be managed that way. I've been hoping to look for some kind of system to handle the others. Having them managed this way has really helped the situation.


No, this isn't an issue. The money is there and in the bank; we just need to write the checks.

I wish she'd tell us herself, but until and unless she does:

Do you think that she feels that she looks after 6 kids all day and copes with endless crises and emergencies without asking you what to do? That if she had to stop and ask each time a decision needed taking nobody would be fed or cleaned, and so why can't you just solve the fixed, predictable problems you have to deal with without asking her?

This is my attitude to my H (minus the 6 kids issue) BTW, and it is not good, I know.

I'm sure she feels something like that, and I feel like it's a pretty valid perspective. She'd like me to just take care of it.

1. Why can't all the bills be paid this way? Is it technically impossible? Do some companies not subscribe to the system?

2. Why don't you pay the cheques?

I've just remembered one thing that I can't pay by direct debit, and that is my son's school lunch money. I have to pay this online by monitoring what he has spent and topping up the account. It takes a few minutes.

I don't resent that I'm the only one that does it - I just know I cope better with online stuff than my H, and I get on with it.

You don't seem to be able to do with the the cheques. Do you resent being expected to deal with the remaining bills without involving Prisca?

Do you resent that expectation? It is a demand, of a kind.

I don't think I resent the expectation, but it leads to her saying things that I resent.

I'm happy to do the job. I want to do the job reliably, and I've communicated what I need in order to do the job reliably, and the responses have been disengagement from the topic or disrespect.

IME, it's always important to take your share of the blame. She isn't going to want to negotiate with you without that.

Pride is the only thing that prevents one from taking them blame when a mistake has been made.

MARKOS!!!


Ok...you clearly made it sound like the bill was just late and maybe there was a small late fee or something ~ turns out it was just a liiiiiiiiitle bit more than that.

Please be honest with us. We can't help you if you are minimizing things and making it sound like it was just a "oops, I forgot to pay the bill, now we owe a $10 late fee".

She was severely inconvenienced by this! Did I read correctly that you have 5-6 young kids at home?!?! Good grief, Markos! We have 4 kids and I can certainly understand her being upset!

Do you see how you neglected to "care for" your W by not paying the water bill, especially AFTER you received the late payment?

What stopped you from doing it RIGHT THEN?

Remember the story I told you about my H being late on a bill, and the CC company called me?

My H's response was "Oh man...I totally forgot, I'm sorry sweets...I'll take care of it right now."

We hung up and he did it RIGHT THEN. Then I was able to meet his need for admiration by THANKING HIM and telling him he does a great job with the bills.

You HAD the opportunity to fix it when you received the late notice...instead you procrastinated and your W paid the price for it.

Do you see this?

BTW...I know we haven't addressed the inability to POJA this but first...we need to get the whole story.

I believe some serious LBers are happening here...procrastination is a HUGE one that my H commits (we've surmised it falls under Annoying Habits) and that might be a LBEr for Prisca as well.

THAT needs to be addressed (if I am correct) as well as the inability to POJA.

Prisca suggested a time for me to spend fifteen minutes taking care of the bills and finances each night, and I am going to start doing that.

Markos, you have a very slippery way of not answering questions. MF asked you about why you had not told us the full extent of the water story, and why you hadn't paid the bill immediately you got the reminder.

In addition, I'd like to know whether you gave Prisca the silent treatment for hours after she was upset about the water being cut off. If you did do this, then why? What did Prisca do that warranted that treatment?

Again with the bill paying suggestions, which you didn't really ask for.

Again, I don't know how it works where you are, but here, I get paid every 2 weeks, and WH transfers half of the money I get on those same 2 weeks. My WH used to take care of the bills, until....I was at home one day and couldn't call anyone since my phone had been cut off, for the third time. It wasn't that we didn't have the money, he just forgot to pay it and used to only pay bills when he would receive a disconnect notice. I showed him the late fees, etc, that we received because of it. The next day, I set up, through my bank account, that half of the months bills goes to the businesses every 2 weeks. It happens automatically and I wake up every other Friday with half of that months bills already taken care of. On a side note, since we sometimes get paid 3 times a month, I now have some bills paid so far in advance that I could stop paying them for a few months before I needed to pay one. It was a good option for me and removed a lot of tension. Do you online bank?

Now, about the POJA and recovery things, I think I will leave that to the pros, as I only know about what I have read.

Because I was loaded with resentment after three months of trying to negotiate bills and chores with Prisca with no participation.

It may not be a good reason, but that's why.

I told Prisca a couple of months ago I could no longer be responsible for doing this or other jobs when she wasn't willing to negotiate time with me. I told Prisca she could do the job herself if she wanted, or negotiate with me, and the offers were repeatedly declined.

I am tired of doing things simply in response to demands and disrespectful judgments. I am tired of looking past the disrespectful judgments and doing things any way just because I am supposed to or because it is expected.

I didn't tell the full extent of the water story because I knew people would be judgmental toward a man who didn't pay the water bill and his wife and six children were left without water.


I quit speaking to Prisca because I don't know any other way to make the disrespectful judgments turn off. I can't stand it when I explain that I feel something is disrespectful and she disagrees with me.

Exactly what do I need to do to take my share of the blame? I acknowledged my fault to Prisca and apologized. Do I need to be subjected to the disrespectful judgments, too? Because I cannot stand them any more.

You're right.

I really screwed up and then tonight I really, really screwed up by screaming and yelling at Prisca. It was at that moment that I realized I've been screwing up all day long.

She doesn't deserve to have to put up with this. She's been waiting a long time to be able to feel like she has a husband who won't abuse her, and she's still being abused, plus her crazy [censored] of a husband doesn't pay the bills, either.

I apologize for being so deceptive and selective in my posts. Thank you to everyone who has been working to try to set me straight.

She needs to hear that. From you.

We will screw up from time to time. It's only human. It's what we do afterwards that makes all the difference.

She did, before I said anything here.

But I haven't stopped saying it, because at this point I think she would be justified in being skeptical.

That shows I knew I was wrong, doesn't it?

Good grief, what a disrespectful thing to say, and deflection of the highest order.

I'm sorry SugarCane, MarriedForever, and everyone else.

I will not try to escape judgment that I rightly deserve.

No, MiM. This is letting markos off the hook.

He behaved really irresponsibly by ignoring the reminder from the water company to pay the bill. That wasn't just some error; that was a deliberate decision on his part not to pay the bill because he wanted Prisca to do her part in some way. That was childish, and he is the father of a young baby and five other young children. He does not have the right to behave childishly with children depending on him, and in addition, it makes Prisca lose respect for him. That loss of respect is very corrosive to a marriage.

Markos told Prisca some time ago that he would deal with the bill-paying and then he did not deal with this vital bill.

Additionally, screaming the F word at her and calling her names, then leaving the house for hours, is an unacceptable way to behave, full stop. I believe that Dr Harley would say that this behave must never be repeated, not even once more, starting right now. It is not good enough to say that we all make mistakes. Somebody like markos who has been on the programme supervised by Dr Harley for nearly a year must know that a single incident like that makes MASSIVE withdrawals from the LB account, and these are dangerous to the whole marriage. The small deposits that can be made by attempting to compensate for this outbursts will be tiny drops in the ocean. That game of "it is not what you do, but what you do AFTER" is not worth the losses and gains.

Markos, is violent anger a known problem for you? What are you doing about it? Have you raised it with your coaches? What do they say?

But what do you gain by coming here and telling less than half the story? Yes, when the remaining 90% is told by your wife we can see that you knew you were wrong, but why tell the story like that at all? How do you benefit from doing this? How does your marriage benefit? How does your actively seeking an erroneous or half-arsed solution live up to your vow to love and cherish your wife?

markos, the only person you are manipulating is yourself. What good is it to you to get answers to ill-described problems?

What I was doing was venting, which is something absolutely forbidden by the anger management program I am in.

I literally made the problem worse by posting.

Yes, I think you did. You came here and effectively lied about what happened, validated your view of Prisca's wrongs and tried to recruit the board into validating that view, too. That in itself was abusive to Prisca, on top of the verbal abuse you had already subjected her to.

To clarify my point: you didn't make the problem worse by posting. You made the problem worse by skewing the event and effective lying about what Prisca had done wrong.

Posting is not the problem, markos. Prisca does not object to you posting (I imagine) if you do so genuinely to get help. Manipulation of the board by blame-shifting and omission of facts are the seriously problems with your posting, and again, they need to stop now.

You are right.

Blame-shifting is something I have a major problem with.

I went back and looked at my conversation with Prisca yesterday (she told me about the problem by instant messenger). She stated "you know how I feel about this, don't you?" and I did know. And I responded with a very similarly worded sentence that was a DJ: "and you know my desire for us to schedule 15 minutes a day for me to do the budget and pay bills, don't you?" Very sarcastic, and abusive.

And her sincere answer was "no."

markos, I didn't know that anger and verbal abuse were part of your problem until recently. I'm not sure that you have made that clear when you posted before.

For example, when your washing machine broke and you posted about UA time, you mentioned walking out of the house for hours one Sunday. I took you to task for not acting like a grown up, but I wonder now if there wasn't some major detail, like the water being cut off in this recent story, that explained Prisca's attitude towards you at that time, that you left out. Also, did you F-bomb her before leaving the house as you did the other day?

You posted about how, when the kids are in bed and you are able to start UA time, Prisca looks at you and will not speak or participate. She acts indifferent to you. Well, if there have been recent events in which you have lost your temper over family matters and worse, sworn at her and stormed around, then she will not want to talk to you in the evening just because it is scheduled UA time. You have made her dislike you, and she will not want to spend time with someone she dislikes.

I can relate to this specific problem in your marriage and I will beat you up about it, perhaps more than other posters will, because I can see where this is going. I have lived this. I know what Prisca feels about this behaviour.

When you shout at her, and especially when you swear at her and leave the house, you tell her that you hate her and cannot stand her. That is the message she is receiving. The LB losses caused by a single incident like this are huge, and after a few of them per year, her overriding feeling for you will be contempt because you act just like your two year old. She will also find it hard to love someone whose behaviour is frequently un-loveworthy.

Your anger over family and household issues says that you blame her for the day-to-day problems of being a parent. It tells her that although you love the children, and she can see that you do, you resent the problems that they bring into your lives and you are not as committed a parent as she is. If push comes to shove, you will walk out, as you do. It is devastating for a mother to realise that her H, her children's father, is not her protector, as she needs him to be. She will feel alienated from you when your fatherhood and husband-hood become transparently conditional, and her feelings of contempt will not be abated by your behaviour every few days.

When, for the next few days, you try to make peace or move past the events, this will not work to replace the love units haemorrhaged by your violent outburst. And, before long, there will be another one, and looking at you and feeling contempt will become a way of life for Prisca.

This behaviour alone is enough to end your marriage. If you lose enough love units you will lose Prisca's love. if you don't pull yourself together and see what you are doing with every childish refusal to deal with household matters, and every FU and storming out, your marriage will be over one day.

You are right, SugarCane. I know what my anger does to Prisca, and I consider it to be intolerable.

No, last fall when I left the house, I did not not curse at Prisca or have an angry outburst. In fact, I left to avoid an angry outburst.

Last night I walked out, and then walked back in and had my angry outburst. That was a crucial mistake. I ended up saying things to Prisca that I have never said, horrible things she did not deserve that have wounded her deeply.

This is called being DISHONEST and you aren't going to get the help you need if you continue doing this.

It also makes you look bad and we wonder what else you are saying isn't true.

Stop the manipulation. Do you do this in your M too?

THUD. Seriously, Markos?

We are not mind readers. Ignoring questions doesn't scream "I know I was wrong, I just don't want to admit it".

Apparently I do. We've already uncovered that I was dishonest about the fact that the late notice came in.

I am saying the fact that I didn't tell the full extent of the water story shows that I knew I was wrong, doesn't it?

I see that now but I was asleep while all this posting was going on. The other side of your story is a little shocking, to tell you the truth.

I very much like SCs posts to you about what your AOs are doing to Prisca. I very much agree. The few that my H has had have left a mark on me. I can't imagine living with that on a regular basis.

I see this problem as very similar to the presence of actual violence, alcohol or drug abuse or other addictions: MB will not work while these things are present, and I don't think the programme will work if you have angry outbursts, including leaving the house for hours at a time.

I can understand leaving for MINUTES, in order to avoid saying unacceptable things and to gain control of yourself, but when you leave for hours, you are saying a big FU to Prisca and the kids, and you are tying to hurt her. You are hoping that she'll have a horrible time trying to cope with the 6 of them, especially if they known this is a day when Daddy should be home playing with them. You are hoping to make her REALLY sorry.

This is like those other conditions that Dr H speaks of because, while the angry outburst and verbal abuse exist, you cannot make sufficient LB deposits to create romantic love in Prisca. Indeed you cannot begin to compensate for the deposits you obliterated with your violence.

So you will schedule UA time and she will look at you with contempt when the time comes. You will long for affection and hugs on the sofa in the evening and you will wait a long time for them because she dislikes you. She will probably have sex with you, because she knows that this is a quick and efficient way of creating a lot of LB deposits for her, and you won't be as nasty to her for a few days as you might otherwise be. But the sex won't be "SF" for her, and it won't create LB deposits for her. Housework and playing with the kids WILL mean a lot to her but not enough to make up for the losses.

MB won't work if you kill the love with AOs. You know that, yet you still do it.

I'll just say that my H's disproportionate, utterly baffling, childish and ridiculous AOs years ago made me think that he must really dislike me and feel regret that he had ever married and had kids with me. I didn't think I was worthy of that regret or dislike, so it did not make me miserable about myself. I just thought my H was a lucky man who had a nice set-up with his wife and kids and who had everything to be thankful for, including good health and sufficient money. We had no real problems, although we did have a very naughty younger child. That was difficult, but we could have managed so much better if we didn't keep fighting each other over our son's behaviour.

My realisation that he disliked me, despite the positives that we shared, made my contempt for him insurmountable. How pathetic he was, to my mind to be unable to enjoy what he had.

Your anger is not just intolerable, markos; it is bringing about the end of your marriage, in one year or in five.

I think it's great that the two of you arrived at a mutual agreement, but do you think it's a good idea to carve out 15 minutes every evening for bills?

I know that would quickly derail the first time H or I decided we were too tired one night to do that. JMO - I'd sooner see you sitting down with the bills once a week instead of devoting scraps of time to them every night.

I know I'm late to this and some of it's already been covered, however:


Good grief, Markos. We can't very well help you if THIS is happening. You have zero leverage to be complaining about her DJs when you are being verbally and emotionally abusive. And on top of it, lying to us about the extent of your goof-ups.

I'm beginning to understand why she doesn't particularly want to spend time with you...but more importantly, do YOU understand why?

Markos, we aren't trying to beat you up but this is really serious.

Hopefully our posts describing how this affects US will clue you in as to how badly your behavior affects Prisca.

You SAY you understand but when it keeps happening, it's clear that you don't. Words are meaningless ~ your actions of stopping this atrocious behavior would mean you really DO understand.

I don't know how to tell you to stop having AOs ~ it sounds like you're in an anger management program. What are THEY saying you need to do?

And now, perhaps I can see why Prisca gave up doing MB months ago.

None of the activities - the UA time, the use of POJA, the identifying of ENs - none of them was making the marriage romantic because this anger of yours was obliterating all the good. Why would Prisca commit to UA time after a day in which you said anything like what you said yesterday? Why would she be happy with POJA when you used it to insist that she did a job (like bill-paying) that you had agreed was YOURS?

I wonder if you have been trying to use POJA to manipulate her in other ways?

No wonder she was done with MB. I see why now.

Excuse me, MF. I AM trying to beat him up BECAUSE this is really serious.

You guys are absolutely right.

SugarCane, you are absolutely right.

You are right, and I don't expect her to.


There is actually a difference of opinion over whether or not we agreed it was mine.

I became disgruntled last year when my list of responsibilities was growing larger. I told Prisca I was having problems and wanted to reallocate things. Prisca became very upset at me for not getting some tasks done. Dr. Harley assigned us material from his domestic support lesson and predicted we would continue to have conflicts over these things until we organized ourselves with a plan like that. We went through the first step and compiled a list of tasks that somebody needed to be responsible for, but Prisca wasn't willing to go any further.

I don't quite understand the details, markos, and I don't need to.

I'm concerned that I'm seeing your having used the MB programme, or parts of it, to get Prisca to do things your way. You went through some motions of doing things on your side - like going on the AM course - and yet these activities of yours have not changed the marriage for Prisca.

Or at least, they did; I remember her saying so over on 101, but they have not lasted. The very severe problem of your AOs and vile words (she will remember those) have not stopped, but you have been hoping for her to respond to you like a happy MB wife. When she did not, you have come to the board with incomplete stories in order to gain...what?

Have you really never understood the connection between your angry behaviour and her permanent state of withdrawal? Is that why you have come here and posted around the subject without identifying or acknowledging it?

I lived the above too SC. I have been reading this thread in disbelief....it is much like my marriage was. Those looking on just could not believe my XH could act that way. The board members here are shocked at Markos behavior...and it will destroy their marriage.

In my marriage, I did withdraw to protect myself. I too had a healthy dose of self esteem, so I knew it was him not me...but there is only so much one can take. My XH didn't see the connection...I am sure he still doesn't...if he had not gone wayward with multiple OW, I might still be living in that Hades. Of course in HIS mind he went wayward because I didn't give a *hit about him. Much like Markos is so hung up on Prisca's DJ.....when really as you are all saying, no amount of work on her part will save this marriage if he continues with the AO.

My biggest regret is not leaving my XH sooner. I shouldn't have waited for the OW to move me to divorce.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that you've lived with this too, SW.

Of course, the complication here is that, unlike in your case and mine, the abused became the abuser when Prisca had an affair. She also said more than a few abusive things to markos during it.

I would guess that unresolved anger over the affair had (has?) a lot to do with markos's behaviour. What do you think, markos?

"My way" has never been my goal. My goal has been to get to a point where we are living in a way that makes us both happy.

I have been unhappy about a lot of things for a long time.

Last year made it worse, on the whole, and I'm still dealing with a lot of bitterness over that.


I have been hoping for her to join me in the program. It is very frustrating to make changes and see that her changes did not last, or have her tell me she didn't care if she stopped being disrespectful to me or not.


I came to vent, which is never a good idea, especially for a person with anger problems. But I picked this forum to come to because I knew that people would not let me get away with wrong behavior.

Prisca just told me that she is glad to see me posting here, because she knows that I will be held accountable.

I am going to move from doing online anger management seminars to anger management therapy with Newton Hightower. Some might have seen the link I posted to his site awhile back, angerbusters.com . I have been viewing his materials and think it is much better than the first program I tried.

I was married at age 18 and stayed married for 26 years. For the first 10-12 years of marriage I had the same hot temper and said and did many hurtful things---and this sounds like justification but it is true---almost always in response to his AO which were crazy making. I did not like the person I turned into...so I got control of myself. I tell this to give Markos hope that he can indeed learn to control himself. I didn't have my son in those years. I worked really hard--beginning with things most people can't believe would require work...

I will not throw anything
I will not curse at all
I will not say hurtful things
I will not push buttons

I prayed a lot in those days. It was hard because I was being treated horribly still, but had vowed to not retaliate.

The funny thing is my XH never seemed to notice. I realized this one day when he was excusing himself for an AO and brought up my dish smashing....I said, 'I haven't thrown a dish in 5 years.' The look on his face! He had not even realized! He was so caught up in his own misery that he couldn't see the good deal he had.

And of course he will blame Prisca's EA for the resentment that is now making him out of control angry. I don't buy it.

If you think you need a program well, ok. I didn't use any program except my faith and prayer. I just vowed to get control of myself. It is in the thinking. But if you need a program, so be it. You will be divorced if you do not stop this nonsense.

Last year? What happened then? The EA was this January, wasn't it, so what are you referring to?

Yes, particularly many of the things she said as I begged for her to work on our marriage with me.

But none of that resentment justifies an angry outburst, of course.

Prisca spent the entire most of the second half of last year using my commitment to this program to get what she wanted out of me without giving much in return. She backed out of numerous agreements, while abusing me when I overcommitted myself to helping her and became unable to give her everything I'd agreed to. She demanded that we negotiate issues that were important to her without eliminating disrespectful judgments and other love busters on her part to make the process safe, threatening to withdraw from the program if I did not. Then she declined to participate in the program afterward anyway, and refused to negotiate issues that were important to me (such as scheduling concerns, budgeting, paying the bills).

None of that justifies an angry outburst, of course, but it certainly hurt HORRIBLY.

I wouldn't, either.

Markos ~

I just found this on Prisca's thread:


Can you comment? What are you doing to make her think this?

Reminder: Please be HONEST with us.

Well, Dr. Harley thinks an anger management program is the next step when a spouse hasn't learned to control their anger.

I've worked through half of a seminar that turned out not to be very good and then gone through materials from Newton Hightower and was about to go through a seminar using his methods, but instead of doing the seminar I now have a telephone appointment with Hightower himself next Monday.

I will certainly try to be honest. I'm not sure if I'm doing anything at this moment to show resentment, and in fact I'm not feeling a lot at the moment. We spent a couple of great hours together last night and it feels like both of us are putting ourselves hard into making changes, so I don't feel resentful.

She might have read my post above where I talked about how much I resent what happened last year, though. And I do ... but that resentment vanishes when I see evidence that last year isn't going to happen again.

Well, that is good. I am not against AM programs....I just wanted to share my experience of getting my horrible anger/temper under control without a formal program.

I found the first step for me was to get brutally honest with myself about WHY I was so angry all of the time. In my case, I was unhappy with my circumstances...I felt like my then husband had tricked me into a marriage with him when he had no intention of living the kind of live he promised he would live as my husband. I felt very trapped and thus when he would do anything to me it would trigger all that rage (how dare he not appreciate the sacrifice I am making by staying with him when it is not what I bargained for).

So I don't know if you have some issues you haven't admitted to yourself or not. But it is something to think about.

IMHO it would be good to get this cleared up. You might consider asking her what it is you are doing that's giving her this impression.

Oh, I'm one step ahead of you. She says I'm not doing anything today that makes me appear resentful to her. She also wants to know if resentment is why I blew up at her two nights ago, and we're having that discussion right now.

Well, that didn't go well.

She wanted to talk about why I felt resentful yesterday and she wanted to know why I felt resentful before she DJ'ed me.

I didn't. She just doesn't know where the DJs started.

We talked a little bit, but then it wasn't long before she DJ'ed me, and I indicated I needed the conversation to stop. Prisca didn't respect my request and has now canceled our UA time for tonight.

Reposting the following, because it sums up my problem:

How is she DJing you?

It's also a disrespectful judgment to try to educate your spouse, so I was making a real mistake, here.


(I didn't really know what that meant and didn't feel I could respond to something non-verbal, so:)
(I felt like I was taking a risk being honest, here.)


Here I again feel DJ'ed. I don't want this conversation to escalate into something bad.


Here is a transcript so folks can spot what I may not be seeing.

A few minutes later, she emailed, telling me she didn't want to do our UA time tonight, and I responded "okay."

For me it is this simple: I feel judged, and I want Prisca to respect that I need to back away from a conversation if I feel that way. I give her the same respect, in fact Marriage Builders calls for it.

I do not believe that the solution is for me to work hard on just not being bothered by it.

By telling me that what I felt was disrespectful was not disrespectful, because it is true.

And since posting this, she's now IM'ed me:

You are right, that is a DJ.


Can you point out, in this conversation, where you felt judged?

I felt judged when I told her that I felt like "I never know about these things" was a DJ from the previous conversation, and her reply was "I never do. When have I known?"

Another email I just received from Prisca:

I just want to stop arguing. I don't want to settle who's right or not, and I don't want to be told I am a liar because I saw the conversation differently from the way she did.

She continues to IM me, telling me that I'm lying to say that she won't respect my request to end the conversation, because she did respect it. She wants to know why I won't respond.

Markos...I hate to break it to you but this is not a judging question.

Can you think a little harder and figure out why this question bothers you so much? There is an underlying reason and IMO you really need to figure out WHY.

She can't very well stop asking you questions out of fear that you will feel "judged" now, can she?

Remember yesterday when you said this and it was determined it was because you didn't want to talk about the possibility that it was your fault?

This is a huge problem, Markos...HUGE. You make a mistake and then you don't want to talk about it. How in the world are you going to fix anything if you won't talk about it and find a solution?

I'm a little bit confused ... are Prisca and I not entitled to have different opinions about whose fault something is? I thought trying to tell your spouse something is their fault WAS a disrespectful judgment, by definition.

I was not under the impression.

A couple of months back my H and I had an issue ~ he was dishonest about something and I told him so.

He was adamant that he WASN'T dishonest about it. I knew he was.

I posted to Dr. H about it. Dr. H's response to my H was "Admit you were wrong and apologize. DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN AGAIN."

My H had to ADMIT he was wrong in order for us to move on.

What, exactly, are you talking about here? Are you still talking about the water being shut off?

I admitted in the conversation (you can see in the transcript above) that I was wrong to not be honest with Prisca, where I said "It's not right for me to withhold information from you."

I've never once had Dr. Harley or our MB coach encourage me to consider any DJ Prisca reported to me as anything other than a DJ.

WHAT DJ are you talking about???

I'm still not clear...this is getting very convoluted. If it's her asking you a question, that is not a DJ, IMO.

In that sentence I'm just asking about the concept in general.

It sounds to me like you are advocating that I take blame for everything in every situation.

I don't want to continue to discuss the water shutoff with Prisca and it seems that doing so would be one of the enemies of good conversation. Maybe I'm just really confused on what Marriage Builders advocates here. I recognize that most people agree that me not paying the water bill was reprehensible. But if we've already established that I was at fault for that and it was wrong, why would we need to keep talking about it?

My understanding was that Prisca and I were talking about any resentment I felt or expressed yesterday, and any DJs I felt that she committed.

I feel that "I never know about these things" is a DJ. It's hyperbolic, and it truly assigns more blame to me than belongs to me.

It was my understanding that we are supposed to avoid "always" and "never" statements about our spouse, to avoid committing DJs.

Oh good grief. I think you use any excuse to quit talking to her when you don't like the way it is going.

It was my understanding that in Marriage Builders it is paramount for conversation to be pleasant for both husband and wife and that it should always stop when one doesn't like where it is going.

Markos ~ pardon me for saying this but you come off as very self-righteous. First you lied to us about it, then it was VERY hard for you to admit you were wrong and now, when trying to come up with a solution, you side-step taking responsibility for this by trying to say her question was a DJ. It looks like blameshifting from my POV. I still don't think her question was a DJ. "When do I do that?" isn't a DJ, unless I'm missing something here.

Now...if it's all cleared up AND you have a solution in place AND you have SINCERELY (key word here) apologized, then no...there is probably no reason to bring it up.

However, it seems that it was brought up because Prisca felt you were resentful about something ~ she didn't just bring it up to beat you over the head with it. She is trying to clear up some resentment.

To tell you the truth, I am having a hard time seeing why you are upset over this water bill and your AO AT ALL. Prisca has every right to be upset, you have NONE.

YOU were wrong and THEN you had a huge, ugly AO. You were wrong AGAIN. Then you try to say she is DJing you when she is clearly upset about your lack of care. I'm still not seeing the DJs and I can't tell if that's because they're not being described clearly or they're just not there.

My suggestion is to SINCERELY apologize for EVERYTHING. See if her DJs disappear. Act humble and remorseful. DO what you say you are going to do, every time.

There's really no reason to talk about it anymore. Actions are more important than words, so stop talking about the past and just DO the right thing from here on out.

Markos, do you truly not see the manipulation here???

Really, truly?

Of COURSE you aren't going to like a conversation that says "you hurt my feelings, this is how". You don't just say "Sorry, I don't like the way this is going, I'm out."

Common sense here, Markos...

I think you are mixing issues. I didn't think we were talking about the water bill, we were just talking about yesterday's conversation because Prisca felt I was resentful. This was not a conversation to try to solve the water bill issue. We've talked about that and have a solution in place for that.

Ok...you are right. It was a DJ when you told her you were not resentful and she insisted you were.

As long as you were being honest about not being resentful ~ it's very easy to passive aggressively act resentful about something but when asked about it, say "Who me, resentful? Nahhhh.....", all the while giving the silent treatment/making snide remarks, etc.

KWIM? I am not saying you did that, just suggesting that everyone be aware of doing that because it's a common marriage "dance". This is why RH is so important.

That wasn't what the conversation was about. She wanted to know how my feelings were hurt; she asked about my resentment.

MarriedForever, I don't know how to tell you this, but Prisca and I were doing great until you advised her to ask me about my resentment!

Yes, I was certainly being completely honest.

On her thread, she said "What should I do?" in regards to your preceived resentment. I didn't just pull it out of my *ss.

Being RH means she asks you if she believes there is a problem and it means you answer truthfully.

Sheesh. I don't think you like RH much more than she does. She isn't going to feel safe asking about your feelings if this is your attitude.

And FTR...SHE didn't appear to be doing "great" if she was feeling resentment from you, now did she?

I'm sorry, MarriedForever, that last comment from me was very unfair. Thank you for the help you've been offering. I think we all had a misunderstanding. When Prisca is talking about resentment, I don't think it's that she perceived resentment. And she told me at the beginning of our conversation that I didn't appear to be acting resentful today.

We had spectacular conversation all day long. I took her statement about resentment on my part to be an expression of care and concern on her part for me. I could be wrong.

Apology accepted.

Markos, when you have conversations with your wife, are you looking for the LBs she is committing? It seems that you have picked up on the 2 key words, which I have seen repeated here as obvious signs that the speaker is committing a DJ. What do YOU do when you hear Prisca say, "....never....." or "....always..."? What is YOUR reaction?

Also, during your transcribed conversation, you admitted that you don't often tell Prisca about things because you are worried about her reaction. Do you have any plans to stop this behaviour?

I don't like it, as it's an incorrect, judgmental generalization. It really bothers me to hear it. The first thing I notice is how it makes me feel, the next thing I notice is the specific words used; I have a lot more understanding now about why certain comments or phrases bother me and how to explain why they bother me. A little over a year ago I couldn't have even identified most DJs but I sure knew when something bothered me.

Fault-finding bothers me a lot, too. For example last year I was scared to negotiate the sale of our old house because a lot of conversations around it seemed to boil down to Prisca telling me how it was my fault the house was not sold. Frankly I felt like it was her fault the house was not sold, but I don't believe I ever told her so. I just wanted to make a plan to sell it that would make us both happy. We did, and it is now on the market.


Specific plans I don't know; I know that eventually we will get to the dishonesty lesson if we keep working the program.

Things I have done:
Tell Prisca things anyway even when I am worried about how she will react
Admit that I am responsible for being honest no matter what her reaction is

It's good that you are aware how a DJ can make you feel. I may not have worded my question correctly, "What do you DO when you hear Prisca use never or always?"

I see, I thought you were asking something else.

Usually one of the following:

Our coach told us the best strategy was to simply note them on our DJ worksheet for the week. We've talked about starting to use the worksheets again. Prisca hasn't accepted my worksheets in the past, and that's been a point of resentment for me.

I have told her "It bothers me for you to say that" and "It offends me for you to say that," both of which are suggestions from Dr. Harley. He also suggests that if asked why, the response be simply "Because I find it disrespectful." I have backed off from saying things like this because often Prisca has responded by challenging me as to whether or not a remark really was disrespectful. So the other thing I have done is to simply request to end the conversation or request a timeout.

I've also tried changing the subject.

In this case I simply responded "I'm sorry.
I should tell you.
I should have told you."

That seems to me to be what Prisca is doing this morning. Very silent, not answering when I try to plan with her, etc. Not a lot of snide remarks, but a lot of "looks."

It could be anything; I don't know, because she won't tell me. I commented earlier that I guessed we wouldn't be able to go where we were going at 10, and it seemed to upset her a bit, but at this point there's no way to get there on time.

My take on it is that I should probably just keep plunging ahead, trying to cheerfully do what we have planned as best as possible and hoping she'll feel better or talk to me about the problem if she needs me to do something different.

But it's painful.

Pretty good day all told since then, though.

In my opinion, there are two types of these conversations:

* "You hurt my feelings, this is how: you did such-and-such, and that offends me."
* "You hurt my feelings, this is how: you did not do such-and-such, and I need you to do that."

Dr. Harley seems to see a distinction in these two situations. They look different in light of the policy of joint agreement and in light of the types of resentment they cause. In the first one, a spouse is asking the other spouse to follow the POJA and to avoid causing a potentially permanent resentment by taking action. In the other, a spouse is requesting that a need be met, and we know that that needs to be done according to the POJA and in a way that is enjoyable to the other spouse.

As an example, there is a big difference between a husband saying "You hurt my feelings by spending $200 on that dress without asking me" and "You hurt my feelings by not having sex with me last night." The wife's spending without her husband's knowledge goes against the POJA. But in the second case the husband's request, if he forces it, goes against the POJA and is a demand.

I've seen Dr. Harley make a distinction between these two kinds of conversations several times. Here's one old example, in the last paragraph of this post:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1325968#Post1325968

And here is a case where Dr. Harley explained the concept to me:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160882&Number=2405440#Post2405440

Prisca felt that when I tried to have a conversation like that, I was making a demand. Dr. Harley agreed. He told me that it might be true that I was hurt that Prisca had failed to do something, but that my saying so was something that I should avoid because it was a way to make Prisca feel guilty! He also said that I should recognize that if I was hurt it was because of a wrong belief on my part that if Prisca really cared about me she would grant my request.

Even when there has been an agreement to do something and Prisca has changed her mind, she has reacted very strongly to me trying to have a conversation with her where I express "You hurt me by not doing such-and-such." And Dr. Harley agrees with that, too: even when there is an agreement made, if our feelings later change, it's not following the POJA to try to force the other to stick with the original agreement:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160882&Number=2439993#Post2439993

I have stressed and stressed trying to live out this principle so that Prisca would not feel like I am making a demand of her or trying to make her feel guilty. But she has responded negatively, very negatively (love busters), when I have asked for the same consideration from her. I feel like I am stretched to the breaking point trying to avoid this kind of demand while still being subjected to the same from her. I am falling all over myself trying to put together this puzzle: Prisca is right whenever she says I am demanding or disrespectful, but when the situation is reversed exactly I am not right in saying she is demanding or disrespectful.

If I am manipulative to try to avoid the second kind of conversation that I listed above, then -- well, Prisca also tries to avoid the same kind of conversation!

I am not whining that I do not want to pay bills or help my wife with the very heavy load of taking care of our home and six children. I just want to quit being stabbed with this kind of disrespect. I can't stand anymore to hear "Please do it anyway, because you agreed to" -- because Prisca never would carry through like that for me. I can't stand to hear "Please do it anyway, because it'll hurt me if you don't" -- because there was no such compassion when I am hurting from the same pain of unmet needs. And I can't stand to hear "Please stand still while I tell you what I think is your fault" -- because Prisca does not want to hear when I tell her what I felt was her fault.

I agree with Dr. Harley that demands, disrespect, and anger are absolutely intolerable in a marriage. I agree that "You agreed to" and "it will hurt me if you don't" are statements that should be avoided, because of how much they hurt. I want the principles to applied by both of us.

I have two immediate thoughts:

1. That you are keeping score, and I think that in itself breeds resentment.

2. Does Dr Harley (or your coach) call Prisca to task about failing to meet her agreements?

Prisca hasn't renewed contact with Dr. Harley or our coach until recently, and she sounds like she's mad at Dr. Harley today so I'm not sure how long that will continue.

It was my understanding from what Dr. Harley said to us that he didn't want either of us called to task for failing to meet agreements, but that instead we were to renegotiate if one of us sensed a problem with a previously made agreement:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160882&Number=2439993#Post2439993

I do not want a marriage where we keep score. I want a marriage where every decision we make is win-win.

I'm bowing out of this. There is some manipulation (at least perceived on my part) of the MB concepts here that I can't deal with. This is too frustrating for me.

Good luck, Markos and Prisca. I truly wish you the best and am very happy that you have Dr. Harley and Kim to guide you. You are in good hands!

Thanks for all your help, MarriedForever, and your patience with me.

I feel like things are going well for us at the moment. Prisca started asking for my disrespectful judgments worksheet again this week, which is huge to me. Going forward, I'm going to go back to just recording things that I feel are demanding, disrespectful, or angry outbursts and delivering the worksheet to her each week, and I think I'm just going to stay away from saying why I feel it is demanding, disrespectful, or an angry outburst, unless she asks.

I'm not quite sure what's going on this morning, but I'm distressed. We've had UA time scheduled for every morning this week; the last couple of mornings were pretty good, but this morning Prisca didn't seem to want to pay any attention. I finally concluded she was tired and had gone back to sleep -- and then she caught me crying and asked me what was wrong. I told her I was lonely and felt like she wasn't paying any attention to me (I had been talking to her and trying to be affectionate with her, and she hadn't been responding), and she didn't say anything. Now she's not speaking at all, and I feel like she's withdrawn because I complained.

I was really disappointed to find out that she wasn't asleep, that she really had been awake for everything and just wasn't responding.

Our UA time the last two mornings actually had SF on the schedule; she woke up for that and seemed to really enjoy it. But there was nothing on the schedule this morning other than coffee and conversation. I'm in the strange place of being a man who feels like his wife won't show him attention unless he offers sex. I really do need the other intimate emotional needs.

We finally talked a little bit, later, and Prisca implied that I had done something that made her not want to talk to me. She said it wasn't the fact that I complained -- but then she was silent when I asked her what it was. So I have no chance to know what I could change that would result in her being interested, or even if I could change anything, which is really frustrating.

We had 30 hours of UA time scheduled for this week; I don't know how much we've really had, but I know that most of the time we haven't spent the full time together. It bothers me that she doesn't seem more concerned about that.

The past is coming right back into my mind -- because the present doesn't seem any different. I don't know what I can do to get my wife interested in spending time with me, she won't tell me, I don't know if she's really intending to be vigilant about doing this program or not. I can't trust her. All last year while I was posting here and talking to her and complaining "We aren't doing the program," she was punishing me for saying it, and of course it turned out that it was absolutely the truth.

Prisca just read what I was typing over my shoulder and stormed out of the room and slammed the door.

Why, if you thought she was tired and had gone back to sleep, did you get upset to the point of crying?

Exactly.

Frankly, I think Markos sounds manipulative and controlling.

I don't think that at all. I am asking for clarification because I think it is often hard to convey in writing accurately what happened. Also, it is likely that that each party to any event might have slightly, or indeed, greatly, varying perspectives on what happened and why.

markos got very upset, and I think there must be a reason for that, unrelated to the normally inoffensive, understandable act of someone being very sleepy at 6AM. I wonder whether markos's reaction was triggered by his unhappiness over the past year, which has been around the issue of UA time to some extent.

I wonder, if so, whether next time markos could tell Prisca that it was a trigger, that he knows she didn't do it deliberately, and if they cannot somehow apologise to each other and try and get the day back on a better footing. I don't know why things deteriorated so badly from something that could be explained, and that's is why I asked him about it.

Whatever the reason for being upset, having repeated angry outbursts and saying nasty things again and again hours later, are death to recovery from the event. Prisca's hurt and disgust with the childless behaviour will linger for days. I know because it is what I have experienced with my H's excessive anger over accidents and unintended slights.

Repeatedly harping on the other person's selfish, hurtful, vicious (fill in the blank) behaviour more than an hour after it happened, especially when that behaviour has been misunderstood, is death to happiness and love. Furious tempers, outrage and vile words will kill a marriage just as surely as an affair will. This must stop.

I don't see how. This comment seems to me to be adding insult to injury. Markos has been through hell in this marriage and this incident obviously hurt him, as evidenced by his crying. Do we slap someone just because their feelings are hurt to the point of tears? What kind of a person does that?

Or is it better to show compassion and try not to do the things that caused the hurt and pain in the first place? For me, I don't like it when I hurt my husband, and I do things to alleviate that, not aggravate it. So I don't see how accusing Markos of being "manipulative and controlling" helps.

Rather, this incident indicates Markos's exhaustion to me. He has been in Plan A for many months with very little payoff and this is the result.

This is why Markos is exhausted to the point of tears:


He is worn out. I wonder if we should slap the hell out of him for that?

I will defer to your view. I suppose his AOs are reminding me of the AOs I endured in my last marriage. I probably can't be unbiased with a situation such as this.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{SmilingWoman}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I have to tell you that I am sooo happy for your new life with your new, wonderful husband. You deserve the very best and I am glad you are getting it, friend.

Hey, MarriedForever, I hope you are still reading. I wanted to let you know I appreciated your recent post on cemar's thread, the one where you said "Hope this helps someone." I felt like it helped me.

We're back after a week long vacation. We had some really good times, although obviously we had a miserable time on a day in the middle.

The rest of the day that I posted didn't go very well. Prisca cornered me in our room and I had an angry outburst. I should have gone out the other way. We tried to spend time together with our children on the beach, but I had an angry outburst there, as well.

What am I going to be doing differently to try to stop these angry outbursts? Dr. Harley says I need to be practicing relaxing in response to frustration, and thinking about such problems while I am relaxed EVERY DAY. I'm not doing that; I'm only doing it when I have a few spare minutes to think about it. I don't have a lot of spare minutes, so I am going to start scheduling this to make sure it happens and make sure it becomes my habit.

I am really sad that Prisca sometimes gets my hopes up and then doesn't follow through with what she agreed to do, but none of that justifies abusing her with an angry outburst, and I have no hope of having a good marriage until angry outbursts are gone. SmilingWoman's perspective is pretty valuable to me here; I do NOT want to be the abusive husband that I have become.

As for the question of why was I crying, I was crying because it is still extremely common for Prisca to disappoint me by backing out of POUA. Less common than it used to be, and I know she is making an effort, but it is still a recent occurrence. I would like her to show her commitment by treating the Marriage Builders program with the same enthusiasm that she started with last year, when she eagerly tracked our UA time, looked to our coach for help if it seemed like we weren't making it, etc.

There is more background to my crying. Last year when we started Marriage Builders, we had some great mornings together, but over time her enthusiasm waned and she went from hopping up with me when the alarm clock sounded to lying in bed while I tried to embrace her and beg her to pay attention to me. Finally one morning when I didn't wake her up for scheduled time, she blew up at me over it. We didn't have any time together in the mornings after that for months, until her renewed commitment this year. But it hurts to go back into a situation where I am trying to greet her in the morning and she is not responding.

Our first attempts to schedule time together in the mornings this year were pretty bad. We scheduled "conversation," but I would wake up and say good morning and try to talk to her and she would say nothing. I would embrace her and try to be physically affectionate with her, and she would not respond. Finally I found out that she was wanting and expecting SF and was clamming up because I wasn't doing it. She asked why I wasn't being sexual, and I responded that I didn't know that was what she wanted, and that I was trying to be affectionate and make conversation and that I assumed that if she wasn't interested in those she definitely wasn't interested in SF.

I have been really frustrated for a long time that our days don't start with some affection and conversation. I usually get up an hour or two before Prisca to get ready for work (until we started scheduling morning UA time together again) and come in to kiss her on my way out. She has gotten angry with me before for not kissing her, but she usually does not kiss me back or respond. Often the first thing I hear from her is an hour or two later at work when she will instant message me to let me know about something she wishes I had taken care of for her.

So since I knew Prisca was wanting SF in the mornings, I suggested we schedule four mornings of it on our trip. She was thrilled! We had two delightful mornings, and then the third morning SF was not scheduled and I was figuring we'd have a nice morning enjoying coffee together before the children woke up, but that was the morning she did not respond to me. We had scheduled eight hours of sleep. Prisca slept those eight hours; I only slept six because I was taking care of the baby and he had a difficult night. That's not terribly common, but I am the one who usually does most of the childcare at night. I am resentful that Prisca long ago agreed to take care of that job one night a week to give me the chance to catch up on my sleep and did not keep the agreement; I know I need to be radically honest with her about that. (But this is a bit of a struggle as I want to be requesting help, not guilting her into helping.)

So I was pretty tired, quite emotional, very lonely, thought I was alone, and I was crying.

Markos, is she proactively stopping behavior that triggers your angry outbursts? It doesn't sound like it here. While you and I both know you are 100% responsible for your AO's, she needs to stop doing things that trigger them. That will help you learn faster how to stop them. For example, my IB triggered my H's AO's. Once I stopped doing that, he relaxed and the AO's ceased. It made it much easier for him to learn to re-channel when he wasn't being daily triggered. I am amazed at the difference.

Did you go to Galveston?

p.s. is there any chance that you and your wife could get away for a weekend on your own, without kids?

If I can break that down into three areas that I have been angry about:
* Independent behavior: YES! This has almost completely stopped!
* Disrespectful judgments from Prisca: she has made some progress
* Engaging with me in UA time (meeting my emotional needs and letting me meet hers): this varies greatly from day to day. But this third issue is different from the others in that I can't demand that she do UA time. If I'm always acknowledging her right to decline to participate or to back out if she decides she feels differently at the time, then I'm going to have to learn how to not have an AO over the resentment.


Corpus Christi, actually. We took a roundabout way back home that brought us through Wharton, which is as close as we got to Galveston or Houston.

I don't know; the last time we were able to do that was the Marriage Builders weekend, a year ago. My parents haven't provided any support for that, ever. One of the reasons we moved to Prisca's hometown was in the hope that her family would sometimes help with the children, and they have done that somewhat, but I'm reluctant to ask too often lest we overload anyone.

For MB weekend my sister took one of our children and Prisca's mother and sisters took the rest, split up between them. It would be great to do something like that again.

I thought MelodyLane was offering to help!

It would also be helpful if she'd respect my requests to disengage from a conversation. She came to me later in our bedroom and I was basically cornered (though I could have gone out the bathroom) and didn't want to take "no" for an answer about discussing it.

Can your church help you out with this? How much does it cost to hire babysitters these days?

And yes, Sugarcane, I can offer my babysitting services! I will tie those little hellions up!!

I guess I am not clear on why you so often seem to want to disengage from a conversation. I can tell you that I found it VERY frustrating to want to discuss something and be told I had to stop the conversation.

What happens that makes you need to stop the discussion?

SmilingWoman, the usual reason I want to stop a discussion, when I feel that way, is love busters on Prisca's part (disrespectful judgments, and occasionally angry outbursts). Sometimes it is simply the fact that I am frustrated.

Here's a sentence from my anger management therapist: "Sometimes others feel that I have a choice between staying and having a calm discussion or leaving, when really the choice I have is between leaving or staying and blowing up." This is a temporary stage I am living in now until we can say that my anger is completely under control. Dr. Harley, my anger management therapist, my MB coach, and I all agree on the need for me to sometimes stop and withdraw from a conversation and calm down and come back to the conflict to try to resolve it later. I think Prisca agrees, too, but in practice she doesn't always agree to it in the heat of the moment.

My anger management therapist's top two rules for men when angry are:
1. SHUT UP
2. LEAVE (quietly, without expressing any anger or disrespect)

Dr. Harley himself says not to say or do anything when angry. If emotions are running high, it is necessary to cool down.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

Wondering ....

Are there different rules for an angry woman?

My therapist specializes in men. I'm not sure what differences he'd make for women. I've seen his book adapted for an online course that can apparently be taken by either men or women, but I haven't taken the course.

SmilingWoman, the goal is not to leave Prisca stuck in a situation where she can't get a conflict resolved. The goal is not to subject Prisca to angry outbursts and to keep me from engaging in behavior that reinforces the habit of angry outbursts.

Most often it is actually me who wants to resolve a conflict and Prisca who doesn't want to talk about it, or me who wants to resolve a conflict but is putting it on hold. I agree it's very frustrating to want to discuss something and for your spouse not to be enthusiastic about discussing it.

But I also feel like the policy of joint agreement should hold sway in every area of marriage, even conversation. If Prisca doesn't want to talk about something, I have to respect that and look for something else to talk about.

Of course if you need to leave the discussion and/or the room to avoid a AO of your own that is what you should do.

Hope you can find a way to control yourself internally soon.

Well, Prisca cancelled our scheduled trip to the gym tonight. I'm disappointed, but I haven't had an angry outburst.

I took four of the children to McDonald's and let them run around on the playground. I think they had fun.

Good job on not having an AO!!!

Markos, do you think she would be more willing to spend time with you if she had more breaks from the kids? I have to be honest and say that if I had that many kids I would be EXHAUSTED. I had 2 sons, 17 months apart and I thought I was going to lose my mind.

Prisca was quiet most of the day, from the very beginning, but didn't tell me why and insisted she was okay. She later complained she was lonely, but I don't know how to take away her loneliness when she doesn't want to talk to me. This has been my great struggle for years, and it's only gotten worse. We used to have such wonderful conversations during the day. I of course am lonely, too.

I don't know what happened. She seemed very happy last night. We drove an hour away to another city and had ice cream, the children fell asleep on the way back and we had great conversation which continued after we got home and put everybody to bed. But this morning she was withdrawn and didn't want to tell me why.

My MB coach renewed contact with me again today. We had a phone call and she asked several questions about the anger management program I'm in and discussed moving us to one of the emotional needs lessons if Prisca wants to. (We talked about it awhile back, and she did at the time.) We've been at this a year and haven't done any work on meeting emotional needs.

Do you have Kim or Sandy?

Kim.

Earlier this year Prisca told me I was nothing but a paycheck to her and that she wished I'd cheat on her so that she could divorce me.

Now after spending the day not talking to me and cancelling our UA time together, she's asking me about the budget because she wants to buy something.

I feel the same all over again, but I can't bring up the mistakes of the past, so I don't know what to say. I feel like time spent together is a lower priority than shopping.

It came out that she has negative feelings about this morning, even though she told me she was "okay." Now she is mad at me for saying I consider that dishonest.

Am I committing a disrespectful judgment here?

8:37 PM Prisca: are you going to do the budget soon?
8:38 PM me: I don't know ... haven't felt very motivated to do much of anything today.
Prisca: ok
8:40 PM why?
8:41 PM me: I'm depressed about our relationship.
8:42 PM Prisca: why?
8:45 PM me: Because it looked like this morning wasn't fulfilling for you and you've been acting like something was wrong all day even though you told me you were okay.
Because we only got 8 hours of UA time last week and we haven't had 15 hours since last year.
8:46 PM Prisca: I counted more than 8 hours
8:49 PM me: My count is about eight.
Prisca: why?
8:50 PM me: That's just what I counted.
3 hours of SF in the mornings.
Some time in the evenings, but never more than an hour.
Prisca: ok
9 minutes
8:59 PM Prisca: I guess there isn't much hope for us then?
9:02 PM is that what you feel?
9:03 PM me: I do not feel like you are following the POUA.
Prisca: why
9:04 PM me: We haven't spent 15 hours a week together since last year.
Prisca: i'm there for UA
I plan UA
me: Yet somehow we get less than 15 hours a week.
9:05 PM Prisca: and you're blaming me?
me: All I see you doing to correct the situation is trying to persuade me that my feelings about it are wrong.
9:06 PM Prisca: i havn't said your feelings are wrong
but you are accusing me of sabotaging UA
me: I don't see you working through the subject with me to get to something you are happy with.
9:07 PM Nor do I see you sharing your emotional reactions about it with me.
Prisca: I've been happy with UA
sharing emotional reactions with you is not safe
9:08 PM me: I don't see you working to learn the Marriage Builders way of sharing them.
Prisca: I am
but you attack me for sharing them
9:09 PM me: How did you feel about this morning?
9:10 PM Prisca: I would rather not say right now
9:11 PM me: Then I would appreciate you not telling me you are happy with UA time. I consider that to be dishonest.
Prisca: I have been happy with UA
don't tell me how I've felt
9:12 PM me: I would also appreciate you not telling me you are "okay." If you are having a negative reaction that you feel unsafe sharing, then I don't consider that "okay," and I consider it misleading to say so.
9:13 PM Prisca: then we have a disagreement on the meaning of "okay"
me: Yes, we do. Since I am your audience, it miscommunicates to me to say "okay" when the feeling is "unsafe."
9:14 PM What changes would make you feel safe to tell me how you feel about this morning?
Prisca: and therefore your definition is the only one that matters
me: Don't tell me how I feel.
Prisca: and you can call me dishonest
9:15 PM why, you've been telling me how i feel all evening
how UA is not important to me
how I don't really enjoy it
9:16 PM how I don't care about how you feel
Prisca: if you want me to feel safe, you won't DJ me
I DO care about UA, and telling me that I don't is a DJ


I thought I was telling her how I felt and what was upsetting and worrying me, not saying anything about how she felt. I don't feel like I even said the things she accuses me of saying.

I feel like I can't tell her I'm unhappy without her challenging me and arguing with me and telling me why I should be happy about it or why it's not her fault.

Yes, markos, here they are:


Hyperbolic and untrue, buddy.


Demanding and judgmental.


Same here.

I'm going to die emotionally if we don't start working this program soon. How do I say this without being judgmental? She doesn't allow me to say that I feel like we're not following it.


Trying to educate her. Should have just terminated the conversation. Having said "I consider it dishonest," if she doesn't want to accept that, then leave it at that, because you can go no further.

She is telling me I am making her feel like I will never be happy.

I just want us to follow this program. Cutting corners with UA time is not following it. Refusing to talk to the coach is not following it. Ignoring good suggestions given here is not following it.

All I've ever wanted is a happy marriage for both of us. I do not feel that it is fair to subject me to this as a result of me complaining about the number of UA hours.

Markos, let me guess. She is a right brainer and you are a left brainer. Do I have this right?

You are probably right. But it's more complicated than that. Though left-brained, I am very emotional, and though right-brained, she greatly appreciates logical reasoning.

I'd say we are the only two folks in the world thinking with our whole heads. But if that were truly so, we probably wouldn't be having these problems.

That makes perfect sense and I do see it like that. I think you need to really, really focus on being more pleasant and attractive, Markos. She will want to spend more UA time with you if you do. For example, she wanted to buy something above and you whapped her over the head with a DJ about "shopping being more important than UA." That is very unfair.

And I see you badgering her about her feelings when it is clear to me she is in withdrawal because of your angry outbursts. I really think you will get much more cooperation if you back off, my friend.

Did you answer my question about getting babysitters?

In the dialogue you posted, my H would have shut right down if I badgered him about his feelings like that. He really doesn't know and can't articulate them. IT is a huge lovebuster for me to press him about his feelings. He HATES IT.

In your case, your W is hesitant to express her feelings because you explode.

Does she have a hard time articulating the reasons behind her actions?

I see what you are saying. My first instinct is to try to justify myself and say that I did not respond to her that way, only posted it here. But I know that there's no difference.

I'm just frightened ... I can try to work with her on every request about buying something and it still doesn't seem to lead to a good marriage.

I raised the subject of looking for babysitters with Prisca this afternoon, but she didn't seem much interested. I am thinking of trying to look around in our church. Might need quite a bit of overhaul on the budget.

We signed up for a gym membership last year specifically because there was very affordable childcare there and it was a great opportunity to get a couple of hours of time together. Prisca seems to really enjoy it when we go.

You are right.


Yes she does. She doesn't like to offer much information about what is wrong or what she is feeling, never has.

Can you make that work, Markos? Look around and see what you can find. Are there some other couples in your church you can exchange babysitting services with?

Yes she does. She doesn't like to offer much information about what is wrong or what she is feeling, never has. [/quote]

My H is very much like this too. It makes him a nervous wreck trying to explain his feelings and/or reasoning behind his actions. He is so much like Prisca in that he loves logic but he tends to be an foggy thinker, if that makes sense. He does not express emotions and feels VERY uncomfortable doing so. It is very hard for him to articulate his feelings and it makes him feel very defensive. So when I try to force him to articulate his feelings, he freezes right up and we get nowhere.

I don't ask him anymore and that has actually improved our marriage so much. I have gained a promise from him to BE HONEST with me when something makes him unhappy and to never agree to something that makes him unhappy. He is able to do that, but he cannot articulate his reasoning. It makes it much harder for us to reach good POJA agreements, but once we reach ONE about something, it usually sets the template for other things.

In your situation, Markos, you have to re-condition her to not FEAR your AO's. Every time you cut loose like that it puts you way back and will take her longer to trust your reactions.

I would volunteer to babysit myself but I would probably get arrested for using duct tape!

Only on five of them. The youngest girl just named one of our new kittens "Pepsi." You and she would probably get along great.

markos, watch out. you would probably come home from a lovely night out to find that all your daughters had big hair.

Mel takes that stuff very seriously.

DUH!! They already do, silly foreigner!! They are TEXANS!!

Markos, your little daughter sounds like a woman of good taste!

This. This is the kind of stuff that sounds manipulative to me Markos. What does the budget have to do with the price of rice in China? I can certainly see why she would avoid talking to you about ANYTHING if she fears that every simple request about mundane household needs/wants turns into an opportunity for you to hound her about your relationship?

Think how the conversation would have gone if you had just answered her question about the budget. Did you already know what she wants to buy? What is it? Are you resentful of what she wants to buy or are you just ticked off in general and decided to use your control of the budget to force her to talk to you about your relationship?

All of the above is said with gentleness and with the best of intentions. (hoping Mel won't yell at me for kicking you when you are down. :))

I started looking this morning, and I am going to be persistent until we have something.

We talked last year about approaching another couple in our church for a babysitting exchange, but they up and moved before we asked them.

One of the things I worry about with a babysitting exchange is that there's an inherent inequity if a family with six children exchanges babysitting services with a family of, say, two children. That other family we were thinking of asking had four children, at least. There's one other family at church with more children than us, but their children are much older and I'm not sure they'd be in as much need as us.

You are right. I can't be pushing Prisca into discussing anything.

And you are also right, SmilingWoman ... why did I jump from the budget to UA time last night? From Prisca's point of view that must look like I completely shut down her attempt to talk about or complain about something.

I was laboring under the misimpression that I tried to complain last night and Prisca turned it around to be all about her. When in fact it was I who started the problem by doing that myself.

I asked Prisca's mom about babysitting this weekend, but it was short notice and she's busy. In fact, she's busy making time with Prisca's father. Yay!

The rejection is a little depressing to Prisca, though. Her mother has been making time to babysit the other sisters' children.

I'm going to be persistent and keep looking for opportunities. I'd like to enlist Prisca's mom to help us find some folks in the church who can help us.

On a related note, our small groups program at church just reassigned everyone to new groups, and we are going to be matched with the family I mentioned earlier that has more children than us. That's going to be fun for all of us. Not sure if it'll lead to any babysitting opportunities, but who knows. The oldest son of this family recently got married (on mine and Prisca's anniversary!!) and at the shower we gave him and his bride Fall in Love, Stay in Love ... and the mother came to me and asked the title of the book, wrote it down, said she hadn't heard of it and wanted to check it out.

We now have a date at the end of the month in which Prisca's mom will babysit.

Meanwhile, Prisca is feeling really down today.

She is sharing a lot of discouragement with me. I am listening and trying to say the best things here, but feeling a little bit like this might be a potential minefield. In particular, she's saying things like "But I'm meeting your emotional needs, and it's not working." Well, truth is she's not doing the things on my ENQ, and she's not spending 15 hours a week with me. I can't blame her for that decision, but I also don't think it's good that she's telling herself she's doing this and it's not working.

Which comes back to the same scary place I have been many times before: there are measurable things that could be done, are not being done, and I can't say "You're not doing the program," because that's a Disrespectful Judgment.

Anyone want to help me move through this in a positive direction?

And ... never mind, maybe. What's not working, for her, is that I'm still having angry outbursts.

And that's not up to her to fix. That's my job, which I've got to own, and make her feel safe.

MelodyLane (or anybody, but ML, please comment!), help me with something. What is the right thing for me to do about my resentment that we haven't been getting 15 hours of undivided attention time with each other? I am really resentful about this problem. When the plans change, even though I know Prisca may not have a choice or may not be doing it intentionally, it really frustrates me and triggers a powerful emotional reaction, like last week when I was bawling into my pillow.

I realize that this is not the same type of resentment as if Prisca were actively doing something that offends me. I realize that this kind of resentment is temporary and will eventually be gone when we are filling our weeks with 15 or more hours of UA that we both enjoy. I realize that I have no right to demand that Prisca join me in UA. And I am intensely aware that Dr. Harley told me not to go to Prisca and tell her it bothers me when she declines to do something, because it is an attempt to guilt Prisca into doing what I want. So I absolutely must avoid doing anything that Prisca feels is a disrespectful judgment (including an attempt to manipulate her with guilt) and I absolutely must grant Prisca the right to decline at any time, for her own protection and safety as well as a lot of other reasons.

But I'm still left with this resentment when we aren't getting that time together, and we are not.

Here's my question: when and how should I talk to Prisca about this resentment, if at all? I would like to move to a place where this is not one of the things that is upsetting me.

This resentment is really made all the more powerful by the memories of the way she raged against me last year when I tried to say we weren't following the program and even more so by the discovery that all that time she had no intention of following it. But I know not to talk about the mistakes of the past.

But that just makes it so much more powerful.

I've been thinking about your AOs Markos. I can so relate. Much of my last marriage was poisoned by that kind of behavior---from both of us. The more you give in to it, the more damage is done. More and more time will be needed to undo the damage.

I've known my current husband for 8 months. I can only recall 2 times feeling that hot rush of fury rising up in me. I can literally feel it creep up the side of my face. Once it was over something VERY trivial and another time it had to do with my son. Neither time resulted in an AO. I've analyzed my reactions and recovery time...and I've come to some interesting conclusions. Both times I SHUT UP. I realized I was on the verge of an AO and so I just pressed my lips together and shut up. Over the trivial matter I quickly realized I was being ridiculous and gave myself a good talking too and did some relaxation exercises and just 'got over it'. The other time it was NOT a trivial matter at all, but I also just SHUT UP. Several hours passed, including a meal where I had to keep my anger hidden from our children...then when the kids were in bed and dh and I were in our bedroom, I was able to discuss what made me so upset.

Now the interesting thing is how my dh assisted me in these situations. He did not press me at all and he was kind to me even though he clearly knew something was wrong. That kind of space was what my first husband NEVER gave me and instead would press me when I was at my most frustrated and well, it usually led to huge fights with AOs on both sides.

I am empowered by realizing that that white hot rage does not have to control me. I can live through it--I can 'be wrathful and yet not sin'.

Oh, and my dh has expressed appreciation for the space I've allowed him when he had a moment of anger (at a project not at me)....

How does Prisca help you or hinder you through AOs? I am thinking she needs to work on her reactions to them when she sees them coming. And that doesn't mean I think your AOs are her responsibility....but she could probably help more than she realizes.

Yesterday Prisca seemed to be pretty depressed and despondent. She was telling me that she feels like no matter what she does, she'll never measure up to what I want, that it'll never be enough.

I could tell she really wasn't feeling good, so I went home with the goal of making the most enjoyable evening possible for her. We put the kids to bed, but after some of them were a little jumpy, we piled everyone in the car to drive to another town an hour away and have ice cream. The kids fell asleep one by one on the way. We had about an hour and a half of mostly good conversation about things we enjoy. Prisca seemed to enjoy it and participated, although sometimes she did seem to get quiet. I'd say the conversation was probably overbalanced toward me talking more, but that's a little bit typical for us as Prisca is less talkative and I am more talkative (I know -- big shock, right?), and this is not what I want for our conversation but I'm trying my best to keep the conversation going, make it enjoyable for her, and encourage her to participate.

I thought the evening went pretty well overall and she seemed to enjoy it. We talked awhile after we got home then cuddled up in bed and watched television and fell asleep. Late.

Now we have had it on our schedule this week to get up at 6 AM each morning. But Prisca has been unhappy about that since Tuesday, we haven't done it the last couple of days, she's been telling me how the POUA is making her feel stressed and like she is on trial, and she's been canceling things we had planned this week.

So I wasn't really thinking about this explicitly, but since Prisca was not feeling good yesterday, since we were up late, and since she's been so stressed about following UA time, I never once thought that she wanted me to wake her up at 6 AM this morning. I assumed she would want me to leave her alone and let her sleep in as long as possible. (She's also been saying she hasn't been getting enough sleep.) So I got up a little later, kissed Prisca goodbye and told her I loved her, and left for work.

This morning we talked for awhile by IM and then she asked why I skipped our scheduled UA time.

I realize I screwed up here and didn't think to talk over plans with her and see what she wanted. I've apologized for that and acknowledged that to her. But she's still upset; I guess she's seeing me as hypocritical. I certainly want us to have all of our UA time. I just have no idea what she wants and am trying to do the best I can. She does not always want to answer me when I ask how she feels and what she wants.

I feel like I can't win for losing ... trying to do so much to please her, and I miss the mark, and on top of that she attacks me.

Can someone please advise me what to do, here?

How do I talk about this, in the way she wants, and answer her questions and respond to her concerns? I don't understand.

Sent at 8:51 AM on Friday
Prisca: did you not want UA this morning?
me: I did but I assumed since we were up so late that I couldn't ask for it
Sent at 9:04 AM on Friday
me: Did I disappoint you?
I don't mean to make it a choice between last night and this morning, or anything,
I just made what was apparently a bad assumption.
Sent at 9:09 AM on Friday
Prisca: ok
Sent at 9:19 AM on Friday
me: Did I disappoint you, Prisca?
Sent at 9:26 AM on Friday
me: Are you scared to say, or fearful that you shouldn't say?
I'm sorry, not trying to badger you about your feelings.
You don't have to say if you don't want to, but if you want to talk about it, I'm willing to listen.
I'm sorry I didn't get an understanding with you about it last night.
Sent at 9:32 AM on Friday
Prisca: yyou probably shouldn't hear what i'm thinking
Sent at 9:37 AM on Friday
me: okay.
Sent at 9:45 AM on Friday
Prisca: i can't take this
Sent at 9:54 AM on Friday
Prisca: what do you want from me
me: right now, time to think
I'm not sure what you want from me.
I screwed up. I thought what I was doing would make you happy. Apparently I misunderstood some things. I'm sorry.
I thought you were feeling like the morning UA time was a big pressure on you right now.
Sent at 10:02 AM on Friday
Prisca: You put me through hell over not getting UA right, yet you decide on your own to skip it
why would you hound me about not following POUA, then decide to skip UA?
Sent at 10:05 AM on Friday
Prisca: you there?
me: I'm here; I'm not sure what to say.
Sent at 10:15 AM on Friday
Prisca: do you not want to answer my question?
Sent at 10:18 AM on Friday
Prisca: you there?
me: I am here, sorry, I just now was involved in making a major stressful change to a customer machine.
I'm sorry, Prisca, I should have talked with you about our plans this morning, and because I didn't you were left disappointed. I am really sorry for messing it up for you.
Sent at 10:25 AM on Friday
Prisca: you haven't heard me
Sent at 10:29 AM on Friday
me: I'm sorry, can you try again?
Sent at 10:32 AM on Friday
Prisca: no
Sent at 10:33 AM on Friday
me: I'm not sure what answer you are looking for from me.
I told you why: I thought you were feeling like the morning UA time was a big pressure on you right now.
Sent at 10:37 AM on Friday
Prisca: I skip UA, and I'm not committed to MB. You skip UA, and your reason is valid.
Sent at 10:39 AM on Friday

I am at a standstill and scared to death to say anything more to her for fear I will make the situation worse.

I can see why should would feel like there is some hypocrisy on my part. And I can see why this would be a painful trigger for her and reminder of my recent angry outburst.

But to me there's a very real difference here that I can't overlook: Prisca often backs out of a planned activity or agreement because she doesn't feel like doing it any more. It's a choice made for her. The reason I didn't wake her up this morning was not because I didn't want to have UA time. I certainly did. It was because I didn't think she wanted to do it and I knew that this had become very troubling for her. It was also a choice made for her.

Which makes my taker wake up and start to feel resentful. I've acknowledged I made a mistake here ... must I be treated like my intentions were selfish, too, when they were not? I don't understand what she is wanting.

Prisca sends me the message that she wants me to be flexible, open to change, be willing to do things other than what we planned all the time, be impulsive, etc. But then when I actually do this and miss the mark, she attacks me.

That's the crux of it, I think. What do I say?

It turns out something was really bothering Prisca today, something she is right to be bothered by. I should have known this would be bothering her today.

Late last night as we were talking, I revealed to Prisca something I did in our early marriage, something I should have told her long ago and did not. She didn't say much about it, and didn't mention it until the middle of the day today. But we are now talking about it, and I'm glad.

What I told Prisca about was an incident early in our marriage when I went looking for unsavory materials online. In Prisca's words this was "equivalent to porn," and I agree. No wonder she is upset today. She had no idea I had done this, and definitely wants to know why I never told her earlier.

Today is Prisca's D-Day.

Never mind all of the above. All that matters right now is the betrayal she is experiencing. I have trickle-truthed my dear wife.

The one good thing, at this point, is that there is nothing else to reveal. There are no other secrets, nothing else I've done without her knowledge.

I could still use some help with this question.

In less than stellar circumstances, I just tried to tell Prisca about this resentment. She responded that it wasn't her fault that I felt resentful.

It sounds to me like she is saying that the solution to problems is I should just change how I feel, which is pretty much the antithesis of this program.

Feeling pretty hopeless right now. I feel like I gave everything, and it didn't work, and I don't have much else to give.

Are you resentful because you feel she is purposefully not meeting your desire for UA?

She has 6 young children. I don't know how she does ANYTHING for herself or for you. I understand that MBs says the marriage MUST come first, but it seems that life will sometimes require an adjustment to a hard and fast rule of 15 hours a week.

I do think you can decide to stop being resentful. You can keep reminding her of your needs and your agreements with regard to any EN...but you can let go of the resentment. It is hurting you and her.

SmilingWoman, if you were to take a guess, what sort of things do you imagine that I'm asking for?

Time. You ask for time. And I imagine it is in short supply.

That is what I imagine. You tell me though, what do you ask for?

Time is right. I'd like time to shop for the groceries and do the other things Prisca wishes I would do. I'd also like to spend time with Prisca so she doesn't feel lonely all the time. She tells me frequently that she feels lonely.

I had my third session with my anger management therapist today. SmilingWoman, I know you'll be happy to hear that he talked to me about ways to stay in conversations longer without having to leave due to frustration.

I know Prisca will be happy when she starts seeing that, too.

So help me out here....do you want time WITH her, or time ALONE to help her out with ds?

I became a mother of one at age 35. I was and remain a SAHM and I homeschool my son. I had one of the worst marriages in recorded history. However, I have NEVER felt lonely. I felt sad that my marriage was horrible and that my now XH would not share our life. But I wasn't lonely. I had lots of friends and lots of contact with grown ups.

Does she have any of that?

Or is her lonliness from feeling so disconnected from you?

Yes,I am happy about that. I really really sympathize with you on this battle...it is a real demon and I really feel that I have overcome it. I feel it most still when dealing with my son. Do you feel it with your children or only with Prisca?

My dh tells me stories of his youth...and I say to him, 'what a jerk. I don't think I would have liked you much.' He says to me, 'I think you had similar battles.' I agree...and tell him I worked really really hard to stop that because I didn't want to 'be' that kind of person. He says it is exactly the same for him. He is a very controlled, kind, godly man. And it came about with MUCH work, MUCH prayer and MUCH 'putting on the new personality'.

Don't get me wrong Markos....I think Prisca is also VERY angry...you both need work. But I think you can do it. I figure you are about 30. I was around that age when I got control of myself.

Well, both of those would be great. Both of those are things she wants. But her personal preference is for time between the two of us.


It's from feeling so disconnected to me. She doesn't believe that pursuing other friendships can fill that void, and I tend to agree.

She is right that NOTHING (but you) can fill that void. I really see that now that I have a wonderful dh. I was determined to keep my ds's family in tact and I totally shut off all 'needs' related to my marriage.

I am a little confused though. WHY is it such a problem for you two to spend time together?

What I've seen so far is that when she tries to talk to you, you use it as an excuse to attack her about other things. IOWs, you don't make UA time pleasant.

What do you see the problem being?

I generally don't talk about such things during UA time. Those conversations happen during the rest of the day, and they often lead to conflict resulting in her not wanting to be with me.

Yes, that is evident with the IMs you post. So stop that.
Don't tie anything she asks for to any EN you have. It makes her feel like you are 'getting back' at her. I would imagine.

If you have concerns, issues, whatever....voice them UNRELATED to her other conversation or requests.

Well, that's what I'm asking how to do, SmilingWoman. How do I establish the right to complain in my marriage?

Well, you DON'T wait until she asks about the budget and THEN tell her how unhappy you are about X.

Complain? How about negotiate? What are you unhappy about? Just tell her without DJ. Without snark. Say you wish she would cook more...

Prisca, 'I'm stressed about how much we spend eating out. What can I do to help us get a plan for cooking at home.'

I asked that last week, almost word for word.

I feel stressed and resentful because when I make respectful complaints and requests, nothing happens, not even an acknowledgment that I have a problem and we need to negotiate it. Of course that doesn't justify going to any love busters on the subject later. But I feel like I'm not taken seriously when I raise an issue. Of course she doesn't have to talk about it when I bring it up. But later when it is an issue for her and she wants emotional support for it, it just triggers those feelings of being ignored and disrespected when I tried to talk about it earlier. And even though she's not saying it, I wonder, did she silently expect me to take care of this? Is this another case where she's going to become resentful because she feels like this is my job? She hasn't shown me she's changed about that.

Sure! That's why I'm here! I've been wanting the right to negotiate for a long time! But when I say I have a problem or something's bothering me, Prisca often doesn't want to talk about it.

Perhaps she anticipates the DJs and AOs that often come with your complaints. (I'm not trying to be nasty here. Do I have a correct picture of how things have been in the past?)

I take it that you have read Dr Harley's explanation of Love Busters, When to Tell Your Spouse "We Have a Problem", Resolving Conflicts and Angry Outbursts and Four Guidlelines for Successful Negotiation?

The thing is, do you actively use them? Judging by your IMs posted here, as Smiling Woman say, you don;t recognise your own DJs and AOs very well.

If Prisca has recommitted to MB, she must accept your right to raise problems. You both need to start again with applying Dr Harley's programme and not bring the past into the current situation. I know that is hard to do.

I'm remembering the conversation you posted the other day...she asked when you could look at the budget and you went straight into how unhappy you are and therefore unmotivated to do the budget. THAT is clotheslining her. Don't do that.

Do you think Prisca would agree that she doesn't want to 'talk' about things that you want to negotiate?

I think you need to give an example so someone can help you work through one successfully.

And what did she say?


Ask her. Do you two have domestic/child care duties split up? Why is it a point of contention? Do you think she should be doing the bulk of it since she is a SAHM? Does she do the bulk of it? Do you both think the division of labor (home and paid work) is reasonable?

No, I just feel like there is a limit to how much I can do, and I want us to negotiate and come to a situation that is workable for both of us. Dr. Harley wanted us to divide up our responsibilities according to his plan last year and Prisca wasn't willing. Based on some of the things she said to me yesterday I think she may be willing to do that, now, so I will bring that up again.

A big problem for me is time. We can agree I'm going to do something, but I cannot do it if time is not allocated to it. Yet a lot of times when I raise the subject of time, Prisca ends the conversation. One time she just responded "I can't handle this," and that was the end of it. I'm not looking for an excuse not to do my part, I'm looking for an agreement as to what is going to drop out from a full schedule of 24 hours daily if I am going to switch and take care of something else.

This subject came up with my anger management therapist yesterday, and he gave me some excellent pointers to keep such discussions POSITIVE.

The issue of scheduling has been getting better, but I know I'm still feeling some frustration, and I think Prisca is, too.

She said okay, but then moved on to talking about something else. A couple of other times I asked her for the shopping list she was going to provide me and she said she would do that but never did. If she doesn't want to do that part, I'd like her to tell me "I don't want to do the shopping list, can you handle that?" or "We need to work out another arrangement, this isn't working for me," or something. I hate to be left hanging. It makes me feel set up to fail: I can launch out on my own and try to take care of the problem, and risk making wrong assumptions and engaging in independent behavior (say, buying the wrong thing, or shopping when she wants me home doing something with her or the children), or I can wait and do nothing and risk her feeling like I am neglectful of the family's needs, or I can keep raising the subject and be seen as nagging and frustrating her.

I think I need a way to emphasize that something is important to me and I'm not happy about leaving the problem unsolved, without being demanding. I'm feeling really gunshy about this -- either I wind up being so meek about it that I guess she doesn't realize an issue is serious, or I try to talk about how important it is and she feels like I'm making demands.

You are absolutely right.


No, I think she sees herself as willing to talk. I don't think she recognizes that this is going on, and I'm not sure how to tell her without disrespectfully judging her or being demanding.

Yes, you do, SugarCane. I can't deny that that has been a huge problem and certainly makes it more difficult to discuss things and that I own a huge part of the blame for this.


Yes, that's where I want to get to!


I am trying to. I try to bring up issues in a non-demanding way. I'm stuck on what I should do when Prisca isn't willing to talk about a problem and what I should do with the resulting resentment, and I'm really offended that she may sometimes later demand to discuss these things and may even DJ me for not doing them. She seems really insistent that problems that are important to her go on the front burner until they get solved, but is not so enthusiastic about problems that are important to me.

You are right that I find DJs very hard to recognize, especially in the moment. And I don't think anyone who has angry outbursts recognizes them at the time, based on what Dr. Harley says. I have learned to recognize when I am getting frustrated and to try to take a break from such situations to calm down, but I still don't feel like Prisca has been very cooperative with that.


I know I need to stop bringing up the past. It is really difficult for me when I perceive that some things aren't changing. She may agree with me one time that something is a problem, but then when she does it again, it's hard to find a respectful way to say "This is still a problem."

I do not feel that she has accepted my right to raise problems, and so it's really hard to deal with the feeling of hopelessness that results. She insists vociferously that she is committed to the program.

My plan: back off, calm down, try to take care of the problems that face us in a way that make us both happy, try to be available to meet her emotional needs. If I see another problem that I feel like I need to talk about, I'll raise it again in the polite and non-critical ways I've learned here. If nothing happens, I'll raise it again on a weekly basis, without showing frustration.

Prisca has said that negotiating with me is like pulling teeth. I know most people are going to leap to the assumption that that is because of my AOs, but I'm pretty sure there is more to it than that. It feels to me like she wants to do an end-run around negotiation, skip that process, and just get what she wants.

I am pretty sure THIS is what you say. Kindly. Respectfully. With your face relaxed, not contorted in anger and resentment.

I think you two need a code word to impress upon Prisca that you are feeling unheard by her. Like when my ds was younger he could stop rough-housing with his dad with the phrase 'pink elephant'.

I have talked to Prisca about this and I hope to hear from her soon.

I don't so much mean "stop bringing up the past", and I don't just mean you.

I mean that expectations are probably being brought to current conversations, based on past events. Prisca probably "knows" that when you say "we need to talk", an AO and DJ is not far behind. You might never go on to do those things in that particular conversation, but she's heard it all before and doesn't want to know as soon as you raise a problem.

She feels it's different when she raises a problem because she feels she doesn't do those things and you should listen!

I know this game from my own marriage.

Anyway, I know the theory, and that is to leave those expectations behind and begin the marriage, and every conversation, afresh.

I know the theory. I'm rotten at the practice! Your problem, too, is how to break the cycle.

Yes, break the cycle of negative expectations. My own dh and I have brought some of those expectations from our first marriages....different people! So I know how hard it is to alter expectations with the same person after years of a habit being set.

She will have to see the change in order to get her head and heart fully set to expect differnt from you.

Markos,

My suggestion to you right now is to QUIT bringing up "issues" and QUIT "complaining".

Yes, I know, Dr. Harley says complaining is good for a marriage.

BUT...

It is only good when:

1. The couple is in love

2. It is done is a loving, caring, compassionate, respectful kindhearted way

I don't think you and Prisca are in love currently, and I don't think either of you can presently bring up complaints in the way I just described.

You both are mostly staying in taker mode. Neither of you really cares much about the other person's feelings. You both just want what you want when you want it.

As long as your feelings toward each other are in this state, complaints will FEEL like DJs and AOs EVEN WHEN THE COMPLAINT IS DELIVERED PROPERLY.

You both need to start meeting INTIMATE ENs. Her intimate EN that she is starving from is intimate conversation. She can't have that with you because you are always trying to figure out the formula for bringing up issues or complaints. Your desire to have your complaint heard is destroying any shot at intimate conversation.

One of the things that attracted her to you and caused her to fall in love was the CONVERSATIONS you would have together.

Did you finish your EN list?

The one where you were going to describe the things she can do/say to meet your top needs?

She told me awhile back she gave you her list.

Are you looking her list every day? Are you doing things on her list every day?

Or...

are you more concerned about bringing up issues???

Oh, and for the record....

Yes, porn is a betrayal in many women's eyes and there are consequences to your marriage because of it.

Yes, lying about it all this time is deceitful and there are consequences to your marriage because of it.

You lusted physically with porn, and she lusted emotionally with her EA.

Are you ready to get over your resentment yet? Or do you still feel entitled to it?

You resent that she had an EA a few months back and wasn't "invested" in MB while you were "working so hard at it".

You weren't any more invested either, Markos. You wanted to cherry pick and skip openness and honesty because you KNEW how she felt about porn.

I'll tell you right now, I am p!ssed at you for all the drama about Prisca not being willing to work MB while you were just working so hard at it, and now you're just too exhausted because you've been doing MB all this time

--when all along you had this secret.

YOU WERE NOT WORKING MB ALL THIS TIME, YANNO!!!

Thanks, SMB. You really know how to hit close to home.

Yes, I'd say I find a lot of my perspective changing since my revelation. Including the vanishing of a lot of that resentment.

Yes, I did send Prisca a list of my emotional needs. I am looking at her list frequently and trying to do things from it every day.

As for complaints, for now I just want to be able to say "no" or to negotiate when she asks me to do something or has expectations for me. She asks for more and more and I quickly find myself overbooked and I don't find any understanding on her part for that.

I want to focus on conversation, but she belittles my attempts to have conversation or ignores me. I would like to talk about the things we used to enjoy talking about and the things on her list, but the only things I find her willing to talk about are her requests for me and how I am bothering her.

How's that workin' for ya?

Markos,

I am on your and Prisca's side...because it is the SAME side.

You both continue to hurt each other over and over and over and keep wondering why what you are doing isn't working.

Someone has to stop.

Someone has to decide to put their big boy/girl pants on and start operating in their intellect instead of their taker/giver mode.

I'll tell you this. If I was not in love with my husband and he wanted to bring up issues with me about what I am doing wrong, my response would be, "Who gives of f@#* what your issues are. You want MY list of issues. You're not such a prize either!" I may not SAY it, but I would certainly be thinking it.

Your complaints are not going to be heard in the way you want them heard until your wife is in love with you. THEN she will CARE that something she is doing hurts you.

Until then, it's just another love bank withdrawal you are making.

Not well at all, but saying "yes" to everything didn't work well at all, either.

I know. There isn't a route to success that I can see that doesn't involve me doing a lot of hard work on that front, first, up front.

But I feel set up to failure in that her immediate pressing concerns are always presented to me as something that I must resolve right now, at any cost. I start to work on one of those, and then something else is more important. All of them seem to get in the way of the intimate emotional needs.

I agree, and I will accept the consequences for my actions. What I did was disgusting and inexcusable. It was wrong to try to hide from it for so long.

Prisca has a right to be upset and even angry over this.

Yes.

I realized this morning that actually Prisca isn't doing anything right now for me to be resentful over. Nothing. Nothing at all.

I can keep arguing about how I felt I was right to be resentful about some things in the past, but that's beyond stupid.

Yea! Now you can move on to falling back in love with each other.

In other news:


This level of cooperation has never been observed by markos' boss in history. Lots and lots of promises to talk to upper management about letting us work from home, but very little actually done. Today he just said "yes."

I'm giddy. I'm probably dreaming.

Wow! That is great! (I am assuming you are certain Prisca will welcome this change in schedule---don't want it to be an IB)

Make the most of the schedule perk.

I took the initiative and then emailed Prisca the same clip I posted here. She about fell over dead from shock that my boss said yes, and then when she came back to life, she seemed overjoyed.

Now we've got to get our fancy bluetooth headsets working so we can hear each other in the gym. When we walk on treadmills or use the exercise bikes, we can't hear each other, which is the whole point in being there.

Prisca has corrected me. She can hear me just fine. I just can't hear her because I'm OLD!

(It's not my fault. Those crazy kids who run the gym want to play their loud music all the time. Why would anyone want loud music playing while they exercise?)

Markos,

I am so happy that you took the initiative and found a creative way to be more available to your family!!!

It is very challenging to get several young ones ready to go out the door, and sometimes it feels like it's just not worth the effort. My guess is that you have made some mega love unit deposits by making this new arrangement to your schedule.

Now the key to this is to REALLY be helpful to Prisca. And so I suggest you (POJA) HOW to get everyone ready. Like...you take care of Georgie, Jimmy, and Larry, and I'll take care of Ammie, Lisa, and Lulu.

Or....I'll get all the kids dressed and ready to walk out the door, if you could get all the bags packed.

See what I mean?

This would be a great POJA topic because you both are already enthusiastic about the end goal--going to the gym. Just work out the logistics together so that you really are helping her get ready.

And that working at home thing....you and Prisca are going to have some great POJA opportunities with that!

You done good, Markos!!! Reall good!

To drown out the accidental exercise-induced farts.

I think Pep just called me an old fart...

I can understand, though, why people would want to drown me out.

Well, today I worked at home and we got out the door headed for our UA time at the gym earlier than ever!

And then we got to the gym and all the lights were off and nobody was there. Odd. A staff member at the front let us know the gym was closed due to the weather.

Weather?

Went across the street to the Wal-Mart and it wasn't long before we got a call from Prisca's parents letting us know tornados were being sighted out to the west and we were about to be under a tornado warning.

So we popped into the Wal-Mart "real quick" to get something nice for dinner and then head home.

Long story short: Markos, Prisca, and our six children, in the back of the shut-down Wal-Mart during a tornado warning, for about an hour or more. While a tornado apparently passed overhead without touching the store. What a great night!

We're home, now. Hopefully no more significant severe weather will occur.

For what it's worth, this young girl in the news yesterday (left in the picture) looks almost exactly like her:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/The_royal_family_on_the_balcony_%28cropped%29.jpg

I never would have guessed it, but the royal wedding and history of the British royal family has become an enjoyable conversation topic for Prisca and me.

(Prisca has British ancestry, including a relative who is over there right now. She wanted me to hasten to add here that that causes more interest than she would otherwise have. There's a sense in which we don't get Americans being fascinated with the nobility of any country. And yet, here we are, reading and discussing the headlines. I guess it's our new vice.)

I just totalled up our UA time for the week, and my count comes to 13.5 hours. I don't have complete records, but I'm pretty sure we haven't hit that high of a count since last year.

Massive amounts of that are simply evening conversation, which I am enjoying immensely.

No wonder I feel fantastic.

Our mornings now start with affection and time spent together. Although some of those mornings we're a little drowsy due to staying up late because we can't STOP TALKING. Which is a very nice problem to have!

We're working through the conversation lesson. I can tell Prisca's doing outside reading on the MB site besides just the book. We're about to order updated copies of HNHN since we never got the new editions. (I still think there should've been more fanfare about that here! )

Prisca told me this week it would be okay if I canceled my next anger management phone session (three weeks from now), and just schedule another if needed down the road. When I started, Newton Hightower told me we would let me wife decide when to start spacing out appointments and when to discontinue altogether. I think I'm going to leave the session in place, though; three weeks is a long time. Not quite done reading Newton's book, either.

We continue to have conflicts. Prisca continues to get very silent at times and I am clueless as to why. And then I start thinking, and I usually discover that I've engaged in a love buster (last Sunday morning I said something that made her feel judged; a few nights before that, she said something about how we needed to solve a particular problem, and I mysteriously got up and began implementing my own solution to that problem with vigor, without consulting Prisca at all as to HOW she wanted to solve it or even if she wanted to solve it right there and then - massive Independent Behavior). And I hate doing that, because I know how it makes my wife feel, and I apologize. And she's become such a wonderful, merciful person. In fact, the other night I put myself in a bad situation and made a bad unilateral decision that had some pretty bad effects for her. I excused myself at the time by telling myself there was "no other choice" and minimizing what I thought the effect would be on her. The next morning it was obvious I'd screwed up. We talked about it briefly, and it quickly became clear she was forgiving me, even though I didn't deserve it in the slightest.

We continue to have conflicts, but it's just amazing how much smoother they are and how many fewer love busters happen on both sides.

We're discussing the problems we face in life, the challenges of raising our children, and the things we want to accomplish, and we're moving toward solutions, and it's just wonderful.

To all of you who have offered the appropriate 2x4s, the necessary advice and encouragement and reproach, thank you. From the bottom of my heart.

img

I sure did, didn't I?

Wow, my working from home arrangement at work was just revoked.

Why?

The boss agreed without consulting his supervisors. Previously his immediate supervisor had been very supportive of the idea, but other managers who have a stake in things but aren't directly in the line of supervision were not enthusiastic about the idea.

Apparently in reference to some other people who want to do the same thing (we all want to work at home and rarely need to physically commute to this office), the boss's supervisor agreed to go with what the other guys want for now.

Of course, there's one guy who works in another state and has had some sort of special arrangement for a long time, and new people were brought on last year who get to work from home. It's completely inconsistent and unfair.

In better news, Prisca and I spent 17 hours of UA time together last week.

Markos, I'm sorry about the change at work; but I am so happy to read how well your marriage is doing!!!

Good job to both of you!

Thank you so much. You and your husband have been invaluable help to us. I particularly appreciate the well-administered 2x4s.

I hightailed it into work EARLY this morning so I can leave on the dot. Turns out we won't be making it to the gym, but I'm still going to be leaving as early as possible in order to maximize time with my family.

I appreciate the other well-administered 2x4s around here, as well. I don't want to leave anyone out.

Thanks for this 2x4 back in March, MarriedForever.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2517679#Post2517679

Yesterday I posted elsewhere on the internet on a forum Prisca and I are members of. It seems a lady was unhappy with a decision her husband made about their child and was ranting about it in capital letters. I commented that I felt her husband was wrong to have made the decision without her and then said that I felt if she was more respectful to her husband it would help to maximize the chance she has to influence such decisions so that they can be made together by both father and mother.

The folks on the board rallied the troops to protect the poster from me. Anyone should have known that she meant no disrespect to her husband. We should all quit dogpiling on her. (I'm not sure how I alone constitute a dogpile.) I had been very ugly to her. (This despite a thread title where she asked specifically to be talked into calming down.) The poster asked me to let it die, even though I wasn't saying anything, and everybody else was making a big deal about it. She also asked me to delete my post. So that it would die.

No wonder I get more mileage out of posting here.

I considered going back to that thread and simply posting "I meant no disrespect."

Oh, by the thread title, I thought this is where I was going to get to do THIS:

Rats.

Thank you, Darling. Any time.

I'm sorry to say that things are not going well for us any more. Our UA time lapsed last week, Prisca has rebuffed my attempts to spend time with her again, and she has become demanding and disrespectful to me again.

She texted me this morning "When are you going to spend time with me again?" I suggested tonight, but then when I suggested something I know she enjoys (or used to), she replied back simply saying "boring."

I'm reeling from the constant DJ torrent and the lack of an ability to approach her to talk about the problems.

My H, the fabulous Mr Pep says to me:

A bad day does not mean a bad marriage.
A bad week does not mean a bad life.

Prisa may be hormonal.
She may be cranky.
She may just be in a dark place in her own mind.

Do what you have learned is healthy marital behavior, and let go of managing her response.

That is true.

It is hard for high strung men like me to remember, though. So I appreciate the reminder.


I'm working on both of those.

(Hmm, what are you doing to work on them, Markos? Well, I'm still continuing to invite her to spend time with me tonight. I'm trying to ignore the barbs. I think I'm going to go reread one of Dr. Harley's articles that mentions translating disrespectful, demanding responses into something positive and try to practice that. And I'm going to refrain from getting any more whiny here than I already have.)

And stop talking to yourself, Markos!

Found it:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067b_qa.html


It's tempting to quote reams of this to myself.


I'm still walking a narrow path. The habits of falling back into abuse are still strong.


This Harley fellow is seriously insightful, you know?

We had a difficult discussion establishing something to do together tonight, with a couple of proposals by me. Prisca finally accepted one by saying "if that is what you want." Can somebody give me a good practical suggestion for how to view this sentence in a positive way in my mind, and a good practical suggestion for how to respond positively, if I should?

Try humor Marcos.
Seriously.
Humor is a serious thing in a marriage.

LAUGH AT YOUR BAD SELF !

Pin a Kindergarden like note to yourself as a funny reminder.
Put a red clown nose on your face whenever you've been in jerk-response-mode.

Offer Prisca the opportunity to give you a wedgie when you've been pouty or whiny.

Out of the box thinking.
Use your imagination.
Try something that seems silly.
So what if it fails.
At least you tried something new.

Both of you have bad habits.
Trying new things is the only way to break bad habits.

And for heaven's sake, stop taking yourself so damn serious.

Did anyone else find this hilarious?

Oh, I get it now!

How many kids is it now, markos?

6 or 7

WHAT?????

Is there something I don't know about?

lol, did that get your attention?

Get a room ....

Hi, guys.

As you've already read, Prisca had an angry outburst at me, first Sunday morning, then again yesterday morning. I had an angry outburst at her yesterday afternoon. I did spend last night in a hotel, as per an agreement we made the last time.

I am feeling resentful. Tremendously resentful. I resent that my complaints are met with disrespect. I also resent that after Sunday's angry outburst there didn't seem to be a mutual caring effort to pick up the pieces. And I resent that my complaints are met with disrespect, defensiveness, denial. This has been an ongoing problem which I have simply been ignoring. That's not radical honesty, but when I complain about it, I am punished with disrespect.

What I found was that we could get to intimacy and then the disrespect would drop off dramatically. But every so often it would still occur. And sometimes, Prisca's disrespect was followed immediately by withdrawal on her part. I can't help but feel extreme resentment over the prospect of having to win her back from her own angry outbursts.

Sunday she didn't speak to me all day. I know I can't demand that she speak to me. But it was an instant end to what intimacy we had been building. And all I knew was, it started with her blowing up and me and lashing out, without any warning.

I am waiting to hear back from Kim, our MB coach.

Prisca isn't willing to speak to the coach or post to Dr. Harley. She has had angry outbursts before when I have done so.

Things were just perfect at the beginning of June. Prisca was in love, and I was almost back in love. She got mad at me when she found out it was "almost."

Call the Harleys for a one-on-one phone appointment.

Too much is at stake to piddle solutions.

Do it or I will pluck your body hairs one-by-one with a rusty tweezer.

I would like it if someone looked over our chat conversation from last night, but I don't think Prisca would be enthusiastic.

STOP doing this on this board.

Yes.

Markos you are responsible for your choices and actions, no one else.

An AO does not invite a return AO. I KNOW you know that. Why did you not remove yourself?

A perception of disrespect does not mean you can withhold RH.

It is dishonest.

Avoiding the 'punishment' for honesty has not really worked out for you has it?

Withholding RH is secretive and builds resentment.

It is hardly any wonder you feel resentful when you have chosen to start building it.

Hugs. Get on to the Harleys pronto. We all love you both.

markos, I'm sorry to hear of these events.

For future use, and for anybody else who might need it, and in answer to indie's post about radical honesty:

With the online coaching programme, each spouse is required to complete an online questionnaire once a month. It gauges the level of the love bank. This is the written instruction from Dr Harley:

When Marriage Builders Weekend began, I asked you to complete the "Love Bank Inventory" questionnaire so I would know how much you loved (or hated) each other when you started the program. Now I would like you to complete that inventory again, so I know how you are progressing. Please click the link below for The Love Bank Inventory online. When you have filled it out, submit it to us as directed at the bottom of the page. Please complete this assignment regardless of which lesson you are currently working on.

And do not give each other your answers just yet. I know that violates the Policy of Radical Honesty, but in this case we want accurate information about your progress, and we do not want it confounded with fear that your spouse will be offended by a low score. When you are eventually in love, you can then share with each other how your scores improved. You may then also use the Love Bank Inventory to keep track of how you feel toward each other on your own, with complete honesty regarding the results.

It sounds as if it was too soon for marcos's "almost" to be shared with Prisca.

I appreciate that we on this board should not be taking sides or picking apart their fight. I just wanted to share that information for anyone who might need it.

That is very interesting and something I had not read about RH.

I'm saying prayers for both of you.

markos,

I saw you around today. How are you and Prisca doing?

I'm following Pepperband's instructions, plus a plan prisca and I put together awhile back.

Good luck to you two.

Was it the rusty tweezer?

Pep,

Prisca and I are having problems again. We were posting to Dr. Harley, but she won't post any more. She says I'm disrespectful. I posted to him this morning, and am waiting on a response. I'm feeling pretty miserable at the moment: there are a lot of complaints I have about our marriage that I had hoped would be addressed by now, but they haven't been addressed. Prisca says I am disrespectful.

I can't figure out how I am being disrespectful. I am hoping that she will give me another chance to reword these complaints, if I can learn to do it respectfully.

Would you mind using your influence to try to persuade Prisca to reengage with Dr. Harley? I don't know what other hope we have.

We aren't getting UA time. I tried to complain about that this morning, but Prisca said I was disrespectful.

I don't really have anyone to talk to for support when Prisca is demanding or disrespectful. I follow your (and Dr. Harley's) advice and complain to her, but she rejects my complaints.

She doesn't want to learn to negotiate. She says it is miserable. She was posting to Dr. Harley about this last week, but she won't post any more.

I hope Prisca Will continue to post to Dr. H. You're both in my prayers.

Prisca did post to Dr. Harley last night.

I just made an appointment with a doctor for antidepressant medication. I'm a little hurt that when I told Prisca her response was she doesn't want to know about it.

It really feels like nobody cares. I can't talk to any of our friends or anyone in our church - Prisca is not enthusiastic.

It really feels like nobody cares.

That may be true, because out here in cyberland, there is a spitload of "nobodies" who care very much.

What can we do, friend?

Just having your caring prompt response was very nice, NG. Thank you.

Pray for me, and pray that the end of the year goes fast and that doctor's appointment comes soon and the medication is effective and that I am calm and rational on the other side.

This just hurts so much:

We are here for you guys.

This is raising a lot of . I'd LOVE to be wrong!

Will you humor me and do some digging, just so I can be proven wrong and be glad thereof?

You may not even be looking for a full-blown A. Perhaps an inappropriate emotional attachment. SOMETHING is diverting her away from your M. Unless it's you, it has to be someone else.

Are you still doing the weekly lessons, or have you finished the course? What happens when you've finished - is that the end of regular contact with your coach?

No, we never finished. I have tried to be pretty close mouthed about what happened, but it hurt me very much. She dragged the lessons out for a full year (she explained this here in Italy), then came at it with renewed vigor and we did one lesson. But we basically just filled out the paperwork. The plans weren't kept.

Then at the end of last year, when Kim contacted her about trying to finish the lessons, Prisca berated me for the fact that they weren't done and were taking so long! Nothing ever hurt so much.

We went on to the Affection lesson, my #1 need. Again Prisca filled out the paperwork, and I saw more effort here, but many of the things I asked for just never happened, or didn't happen regularly, and I would try to talk to her about it and she just wouldn't answer me.

I found that, when we spent a lot of time together watching television, and didn't fight, she would eventually become affectionate with me. Not in the specific ways we asked for, but at least I would be happier with what I was receiving, and we would start becoming close again.

But we never really learned to negotiate, and so when conflict arose, Prisca would either remain silent and resentful (and that would affect the way she was treating me), or make demands. And then everything would fall apart. And we would go back to square one, and rebuild, with no real verbal commitment, just me hoping against hope that things would get better again. And never an acknowledgment that she had played a role in the downturn, never an agreement to learn to resolve our conflicts with win-win solutions, and she would get mad at me and punish me for trying to talk about it. So always, there is the worry that there is going to be another fight when she discovers something that she wants done or is resentful about.

She has come at me with a lot of things the way she did about the lessons last year: starting out with blaming me for the fact that it is not done. She declined to divide up domestic support tasks according to Dr. Harley's plan, and kept asking what good the plan would be since I might agree to do something but then change my mind.

Prisca hates to hear from the coach. When the coach calls, she punishes me.

I was thinking the same thing when I read the texts.

Are you still at home?

I'm so so sorry Markos you are going through this



Hope is not a plan.



But this is. You can only control yourself, set your own boundaries and limits and work from there. Do just exactly what you are doing. I think sometimes that hitting rock bottom is a blessing in disguise because it makes us dig deep and be more proactive.

I don't know what is in Prisca's heart today, but I know the two of you have worked in tandem to save the marriages of others. As one. But it is easier, I know, to be objective with the problems of others.

Regain that objectivity. The meds will help. So will asking the q: "What would I tell a new poster?".
You have the skills to answer any MB question. Do not let despair swamp you when logic is within reach.

We care about and love you both.

Somebody explain this to me:

Prisca: I just read your thread.
Prisca: I am not having an affair, and will do anything to prove it to you.
markos: I know. :*
Prisca: Having an anxiety attack.
You left out everything you've done this year, and have made people think the worst of me. Many of the things you said about me are not true.
markos: They already know everything I've done this year.
Prisca: No, they don't
markos: What should I tell them?
Prisca: I don't care. :'(
The damage has already been done.

I would tell him to get antidepressant medication! That's pretty much exactly the question I asked myself.

I am just so saddened to hear this. We are here for you both. Praying Dr Harley can get you guys on the right path. Hang in there!

That's awesome that she's transparent about any A fears you would have. Not only because THAT is an MB marriage which does not rely on blind trust but also because it shows concern for your feelings. Awesome.

I really, really think some objectivity is all that is required here.

I think feelings have ran a little high here and there and its stalled recovery. And that's been left unresolved too long because of a givers mentality until you're both exhausted.

Markos, I don't want to cut off your support system here, but do you think it's wise to post if it's causing Prisca anxiety?

At least in the short term?

She's talking about some resentment caused over the past year and you need to draw her out on those points. Without her feeling like she's on display here.

Why not tell her you'd like to POJA posting together about these problems at some point when she feels more ready?

You can access Dr H still in that time. Are there any male friends who can offer general support off the boards?

Markos, sorry to hear this is happening.

If you are having to wait to see a Dr. for a prescription, take a look at an over the counter supplement called 5-HTP. I have taken all kinds of AD's over the years off and on and have found that 5-HTP (100 mg) is as useful as the rest. Boosts serotonin just like most SSRI's. Best to take at night until you get used to it.

Good luck with everything...

...do you think it's wise to post if it's causing Prisca anxiety?

Whoa, slippery slope directly ahead, ig.

Whatever any poster would feel compelled to put here would be something they knew, believed, or felt, so it's already within them in some form. (We have no real-world powers, making material interference impossible, thus posting something known to be false by the poster would be irrational.) How could a spouse claim "anxiety" about something within their mate, but only to the extent that it is brought here to an anonymous board. In other words,if the "anxiety" is brought about not by the fact that it is within the posting spouse, but by the fact that it was posted, then the "anxious" spouse has the right and option not to read the offending posts.

Or are we about to decide that anonymously seeking assistance must be POJA'd? If one spouse were a drunk, could that one veto the other's attending an Al-Anon meeting?

I agree and I would never suggest that posting on these forums is something that should always be subject to POJA. There are too many terminal problems in marriage, affecting the health of one of the spouses for that to be the rule in all cases. However in this case, could POJA not be offered?

Not knowing the ins and outs of the situation, I couldn�t possibly say.

I don't know if your example of an alcoholic's spouse, desperately needing outside intervention is an apt one here. It could be. Or it could be that Markos would get further with POJA.

Which is why I phrased my suggestion as a question. Markos will have a good idea as to the answer, and he also has access to Dr Harley. Dr Harley who has had access to both sides of this story would be better placed to make the call on whether posting here is something Markos needs to POJA or not.

But I felt it was something that needed to be considered

Whoa! I just found this post.
I was very occupied with other things for awhile and have not kept up on MB.

A couple of your comments stand out to me.

1. She doesn't want to learn to negotiate.
2. She says it is miserable.

I do not buy #1.
I completely buy #2.

I suspect there has been a ton of emotional flooding between you since your post to me Dec 19.

I await further comments. I assume Dr. Harley is involved and I support whatever efforts he is making.

#1 rule for POJA is to keep it pleasant !

Quote from the Buyers/Renters/Freeloaders thread in MB101:

Markos, I saw you posted on a thread.

How are things going, dude? There are folks here who greatly care for you and Prisca, and want to know you are progressing. (Well, not me so much, since I'm heartless, but other folks......)

I am another who has been waiting for an update!!

You and Prisca have helped me so much. I only wish I could do the same for you.

I have put you both in my prayers.

Hi, guys. Thank you.

I am working without a net. No Dr. Harley, no forum.

But, I know what to do.

I've been on Lexapro about 2 1/2 weeks now. I think I like it.

We're here if you need us.

**edit**

Fact check. I've only "known" y'all since 2005. grin. I can't believe I've been at ***EDIT*** longer than y'all!

Hope you are doing well Markos

**edit**

There are a lot of assumptions in your post. Where do you get off coming here and insulting another poster?

Your post has so little to do with MB advice that I must ask why you are here. This isn't a forum for dispensing folk wisdom and "this is what my STBX was like, so I assume you are like it too" advice.

It is clear to anyone who has followed markos' posts, and read his questions and answers to Dr H on the private forum, that he has struggled hard against his unacceptable behaviour and has sought guidance in both the Bible and Dr Harley's work.

I think you are well out of line and need to stop this line of attack.

My intention isn't to insult anyone, but to offer a perspective from someone who's known Markos online much longer than most here at MB. I like Markos and Prisca. I know about him from his posts, not from folk wisdom. I was careful to qualify my suggestions with plenty of ifs and perhapses. I don't know for sure what's going on, but I wanted to offer this perspective in case it's useful. I care a great deal about Markos and Prisca. I've waited eagerly to hear about the biths of their children and various other life adventures. I have respect for Markos's efforts to heal their marriage. If Prisca doesn't feel safe to negotiate, I'm trying to offer a perspective that could explain why and what to do about it.

I absolutely don't mean to insult anyone and I apologize if that's how I came across.

A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to help posters resolve their problems using Marriage Builders concepts. It is not a platform for personal philosophies. Please keep your posts productive. Thank you.

I appreciate your apology and I apologise in turn for my reading of your post. It was a sentence (now gone) that began "we can conclude" that set me off.

I know him from his posts, too, and from what I have seen, he is effortless in his attempts to use MB and AB to have a great marriage. Sometimes their combined efforts have worked very well to make them both happy for months at a time, and then things crash. I think that the happiness that they both express when things are going well shows that markos is doing the right things. He just needs to keep on doing them and not have relapses. It is the relapses that cause the problem. When he is not relapsing there is no deep down feeling causing problems.

Yes, but what causes the relapses?

And my conclusion is perfectly logical and I will never refer to anything in the Bible as folk wisdom and I don't think I want to be seeking advice from those who do. I was nice getting to know y'all. Moving on...

The "folk wisdom" description referred to the "this is what my STBX was like, so I assume you are like it too" advice, and the "we can conclude that pride is the source of this anger" assumption, as I said in my previous post. It did not refer to Biblical advice, as you well know because I pointed out that markos is a follower of the Bible. You have resorted to distorting my point to win a cheap shot. I think you need to look at your own pride, lady.

You displayed a remarkable arrogance towards and dislike for markos in both your edited posts, which is all the more astonishing given that you went to 101 to ask him for help!

Prisca gave me a lovely gift yesterday for our ninth anniversary: a dozen roses.

But they were manly roses.

They were made of crispy baked bacon.

And they are delicious (I just got through polishing off another one....)

Happy Anniversary!!

Yesterday being Maundy Thursday, I figured I ought to wash a saints' feet, so I washed Prisca's.

It was more of a soak than a wash, but it seemed like the thing to do. I think she enjoyed it.

How lovely.