I generally don't talk about such things during UA time. Those conversations happen during the rest of the day, and they often lead to conflict resulting in her not wanting to be with me.

Yes, that is evident with the IMs you post. So stop that.
Don't tie anything she asks for to any EN you have. It makes her feel like you are 'getting back' at her. I would imagine.

If you have concerns, issues, whatever....voice them UNRELATED to her other conversation or requests.

Well, that's what I'm asking how to do, SmilingWoman. How do I establish the right to complain in my marriage?

Well, you DON'T wait until she asks about the budget and THEN tell her how unhappy you are about X.

Complain? How about negotiate? What are you unhappy about? Just tell her without DJ. Without snark. Say you wish she would cook more...

Prisca, 'I'm stressed about how much we spend eating out. What can I do to help us get a plan for cooking at home.'

I asked that last week, almost word for word.

I feel stressed and resentful because when I make respectful complaints and requests, nothing happens, not even an acknowledgment that I have a problem and we need to negotiate it. Of course that doesn't justify going to any love busters on the subject later. But I feel like I'm not taken seriously when I raise an issue. Of course she doesn't have to talk about it when I bring it up. But later when it is an issue for her and she wants emotional support for it, it just triggers those feelings of being ignored and disrespected when I tried to talk about it earlier. And even though she's not saying it, I wonder, did she silently expect me to take care of this? Is this another case where she's going to become resentful because she feels like this is my job? She hasn't shown me she's changed about that.

Sure! That's why I'm here! I've been wanting the right to negotiate for a long time! But when I say I have a problem or something's bothering me, Prisca often doesn't want to talk about it.

Perhaps she anticipates the DJs and AOs that often come with your complaints. (I'm not trying to be nasty here. Do I have a correct picture of how things have been in the past?)

I take it that you have read Dr Harley's explanation of Love Busters, When to Tell Your Spouse "We Have a Problem", Resolving Conflicts and Angry Outbursts and Four Guidlelines for Successful Negotiation?

The thing is, do you actively use them? Judging by your IMs posted here, as Smiling Woman say, you don;t recognise your own DJs and AOs very well.

If Prisca has recommitted to MB, she must accept your right to raise problems. You both need to start again with applying Dr Harley's programme and not bring the past into the current situation. I know that is hard to do.

I'm remembering the conversation you posted the other day...she asked when you could look at the budget and you went straight into how unhappy you are and therefore unmotivated to do the budget. THAT is clotheslining her. Don't do that.

Do you think Prisca would agree that she doesn't want to 'talk' about things that you want to negotiate?

I think you need to give an example so someone can help you work through one successfully.

And what did she say?


Ask her. Do you two have domestic/child care duties split up? Why is it a point of contention? Do you think she should be doing the bulk of it since she is a SAHM? Does she do the bulk of it? Do you both think the division of labor (home and paid work) is reasonable?

No, I just feel like there is a limit to how much I can do, and I want us to negotiate and come to a situation that is workable for both of us. Dr. Harley wanted us to divide up our responsibilities according to his plan last year and Prisca wasn't willing. Based on some of the things she said to me yesterday I think she may be willing to do that, now, so I will bring that up again.

A big problem for me is time. We can agree I'm going to do something, but I cannot do it if time is not allocated to it. Yet a lot of times when I raise the subject of time, Prisca ends the conversation. One time she just responded "I can't handle this," and that was the end of it. I'm not looking for an excuse not to do my part, I'm looking for an agreement as to what is going to drop out from a full schedule of 24 hours daily if I am going to switch and take care of something else.

This subject came up with my anger management therapist yesterday, and he gave me some excellent pointers to keep such discussions POSITIVE.

The issue of scheduling has been getting better, but I know I'm still feeling some frustration, and I think Prisca is, too.

She said okay, but then moved on to talking about something else. A couple of other times I asked her for the shopping list she was going to provide me and she said she would do that but never did. If she doesn't want to do that part, I'd like her to tell me "I don't want to do the shopping list, can you handle that?" or "We need to work out another arrangement, this isn't working for me," or something. I hate to be left hanging. It makes me feel set up to fail: I can launch out on my own and try to take care of the problem, and risk making wrong assumptions and engaging in independent behavior (say, buying the wrong thing, or shopping when she wants me home doing something with her or the children), or I can wait and do nothing and risk her feeling like I am neglectful of the family's needs, or I can keep raising the subject and be seen as nagging and frustrating her.

I think I need a way to emphasize that something is important to me and I'm not happy about leaving the problem unsolved, without being demanding. I'm feeling really gunshy about this -- either I wind up being so meek about it that I guess she doesn't realize an issue is serious, or I try to talk about how important it is and she feels like I'm making demands.

You are absolutely right.


No, I think she sees herself as willing to talk. I don't think she recognizes that this is going on, and I'm not sure how to tell her without disrespectfully judging her or being demanding.

Yes, you do, SugarCane. I can't deny that that has been a huge problem and certainly makes it more difficult to discuss things and that I own a huge part of the blame for this.


Yes, that's where I want to get to!


I am trying to. I try to bring up issues in a non-demanding way. I'm stuck on what I should do when Prisca isn't willing to talk about a problem and what I should do with the resulting resentment, and I'm really offended that she may sometimes later demand to discuss these things and may even DJ me for not doing them. She seems really insistent that problems that are important to her go on the front burner until they get solved, but is not so enthusiastic about problems that are important to me.

You are right that I find DJs very hard to recognize, especially in the moment. And I don't think anyone who has angry outbursts recognizes them at the time, based on what Dr. Harley says. I have learned to recognize when I am getting frustrated and to try to take a break from such situations to calm down, but I still don't feel like Prisca has been very cooperative with that.


I know I need to stop bringing up the past. It is really difficult for me when I perceive that some things aren't changing. She may agree with me one time that something is a problem, but then when she does it again, it's hard to find a respectful way to say "This is still a problem."

I do not feel that she has accepted my right to raise problems, and so it's really hard to deal with the feeling of hopelessness that results. She insists vociferously that she is committed to the program.

My plan: back off, calm down, try to take care of the problems that face us in a way that make us both happy, try to be available to meet her emotional needs. If I see another problem that I feel like I need to talk about, I'll raise it again in the polite and non-critical ways I've learned here. If nothing happens, I'll raise it again on a weekly basis, without showing frustration.

Prisca has said that negotiating with me is like pulling teeth. I know most people are going to leap to the assumption that that is because of my AOs, but I'm pretty sure there is more to it than that. It feels to me like she wants to do an end-run around negotiation, skip that process, and just get what she wants.

I am pretty sure THIS is what you say. Kindly. Respectfully. With your face relaxed, not contorted in anger and resentment.

I think you two need a code word to impress upon Prisca that you are feeling unheard by her. Like when my ds was younger he could stop rough-housing with his dad with the phrase 'pink elephant'.

I have talked to Prisca about this and I hope to hear from her soon.

I don't so much mean "stop bringing up the past", and I don't just mean you.

I mean that expectations are probably being brought to current conversations, based on past events. Prisca probably "knows" that when you say "we need to talk", an AO and DJ is not far behind. You might never go on to do those things in that particular conversation, but she's heard it all before and doesn't want to know as soon as you raise a problem.

She feels it's different when she raises a problem because she feels she doesn't do those things and you should listen!

I know this game from my own marriage.

Anyway, I know the theory, and that is to leave those expectations behind and begin the marriage, and every conversation, afresh.

I know the theory. I'm rotten at the practice! Your problem, too, is how to break the cycle.

Yes, break the cycle of negative expectations. My own dh and I have brought some of those expectations from our first marriages....different people! So I know how hard it is to alter expectations with the same person after years of a habit being set.

She will have to see the change in order to get her head and heart fully set to expect differnt from you.

Markos,

My suggestion to you right now is to QUIT bringing up "issues" and QUIT "complaining".

Yes, I know, Dr. Harley says complaining is good for a marriage.

BUT...

It is only good when:

1. The couple is in love

2. It is done is a loving, caring, compassionate, respectful kindhearted way

I don't think you and Prisca are in love currently, and I don't think either of you can presently bring up complaints in the way I just described.

You both are mostly staying in taker mode. Neither of you really cares much about the other person's feelings. You both just want what you want when you want it.

As long as your feelings toward each other are in this state, complaints will FEEL like DJs and AOs EVEN WHEN THE COMPLAINT IS DELIVERED PROPERLY.

You both need to start meeting INTIMATE ENs. Her intimate EN that she is starving from is intimate conversation. She can't have that with you because you are always trying to figure out the formula for bringing up issues or complaints. Your desire to have your complaint heard is destroying any shot at intimate conversation.

One of the things that attracted her to you and caused her to fall in love was the CONVERSATIONS you would have together.

Did you finish your EN list?

The one where you were going to describe the things she can do/say to meet your top needs?

She told me awhile back she gave you her list.

Are you looking her list every day? Are you doing things on her list every day?

Or...

are you more concerned about bringing up issues???

Oh, and for the record....

Yes, porn is a betrayal in many women's eyes and there are consequences to your marriage because of it.

Yes, lying about it all this time is deceitful and there are consequences to your marriage because of it.

You lusted physically with porn, and she lusted emotionally with her EA.

Are you ready to get over your resentment yet? Or do you still feel entitled to it?

You resent that she had an EA a few months back and wasn't "invested" in MB while you were "working so hard at it".

You weren't any more invested either, Markos. You wanted to cherry pick and skip openness and honesty because you KNEW how she felt about porn.

I'll tell you right now, I am p!ssed at you for all the drama about Prisca not being willing to work MB while you were just working so hard at it, and now you're just too exhausted because you've been doing MB all this time

--when all along you had this secret.

YOU WERE NOT WORKING MB ALL THIS TIME, YANNO!!!