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Originally Posted by athena99
[I feel selfish and shallow. But in order for him to meet that need, he needs to make a lot of changes. Changes that I don't think I have the right to request and even wonder if they will really make a difference. I have suggested on a number of occasions that he start exercising (for his own health as well as my attraction to him), but he brushes it off and says he doesn't like working out.

Not only do you have a "right" to request this, but you have an obligation to be radically honest with him about what bothers you. It doesn't make much sense to try and spend time together if you annoy each other.

What do you mean by wanting him to exercise? WHY? So he will lose weight? If that is what you want, then just say that. You have to be honest. Tell him you would find him more attractive if he would lose weight. Tell him how much. TELL HIM what he needs to do to be more attractive.

As far as weight loss goes, he will lose weight more effectively with diet, if that is the goal.

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I don't like the way he kisses - it feels sloppy to me. I don't like his body, his sexual stamina, the wimpy way he looks at me. I feel like a horrible person saying this, but I can't keep these thoughts in and pretend I am not thinking them.

Tell him how you like being kissed. You are not a horrible person. NOT telling him this stuff is harmful to your marriage because if he doesn't know, then he can't change it!!

This is another reason I think you should get a coach.

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I don't think UA alone is going to magically fix all of this. Even my dr said I need to address and work through these issues and not just move on thinking they will work themselves out because we are spending time together.

You need to do BOTH. This program will not work without the UA time. Tell your doctor that you are spinning your wheels if you don't get in the UA time.

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I am not committed to UA and need to find something that gets me through this ambivalence so that the UA is palatable.

Your lack of committment prevents this from working. You CAN have romantic, passionate feelings for your H but you have to do the work. It is silly to complain that something doesn't work when the problem is YOU.

I am going to tell your H that if you don't get on board, he needs to consider filing for divorce and going into Plan B. You have a lot of work to do to make this work and I see you doing absolutely NOTHING here.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by writer1
This is completely normal. It happened to me for a long time. I thought about the OM everyday and still had those feelings for a long time. My situation was complicated by the fact that I had an OC as a constant reminder of the OM.

But it does get better. A year and a half into NC, I rarely think about the OM anymore. When I do think about him, the feelings just aren't there at all. I can honestly say that I don't have any feelings for him at all at this point. I don't miss having him in my life.

It does take time, but you will get there. I wasn't sure at first either, but eventually those feelings did fade.


I am confident that the feelings for OM will fade - I am sure he has moved on in his marriage and that chapter is done. But how did you generate feelings for your husband? I feel like other WS already have that committment once their A ends and that enables them to put in the effort to fix things. I didn't wake up after the A ended and feel like BH was my soul mate and I was so sorry for what I did. I know I made a mistake and don't like the person I have become who was able to behave like that. I am sorry I hurt BH. But I still don't feel like my marriage has been or ever be what I now know I want out of it.

It's not that I feel I am punishing him for not meeting my needs before - please don't think that. I just don't know how to move on when the way he has been all of these years is just not what I want anymore and I don't have confidence that he can change. I know I should give him that chance, but also feel like I don't have the rights to make those requests because of my bad behavior.


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Originally Posted by athena99
My need is for sexual fulfillment. Right now, it is not the way I want it. I am not physically attracted to him and that is an important thing for me.

Do you cook the meals? Can you encourage healthier eating for the whole family? How about starting to get out to the park with the kids 3-4 times a week? Walk, ride bikes, etc? Are there any martial arts Dojos around? Would he be interested in taking some classes as a family?

Originally Posted by athena99
I feel selfish and shallow. But in order for him to meet that need, he needs to make a lot of changes. Changes that I don't think I have the right to request and even wonder if they will really make a difference. I have suggested on a number of occasions that he start exercising (for his own health as well as my attraction to him), but he brushes it off and says he doesn't like working out.

See the above.

Originally Posted by athena99
I don't like the way he kisses - it feels sloppy to me. I don't like his body, his sexual stamina, the wimpy way he looks at me. I feel like a horrible person saying this, but I can't keep these thoughts in and pretend I am not thinking them.

Mmmhmmm... do we need to guess your basis for comparison?

Though, I admit to a bit of wimpiness early on. It lasted... maybe the first month? Now, I'm not built like Eric Bana or anything... only 32 and I'm balding, a little extra weight in the middle. Know what? I was never really Mr. Washboard Abs, either. Not even in the best shape of my life, when I met FWW.

The thing that had changed is that I had invested my entire self-image into the approval of a neglectful, and then unfaithful, wife.

I'm also aware of the husband I can be, that I want to be, and that I let FWW's neglect of my needs cause me not to be.


So, one day I got all shaved, dressed, and looked in the mirror, and said; "Damn, I AM one handsome devil. I am a good man, and I am wicked intelligent. If FWW wants to toss that aside for horsecrap, I'll be fine."

FWW was out of town with her girlfriend thrift shopping that weekend, but I told her as much when she got home.

Confidence. Strength. Those were the missing factors of attraction.

Originally Posted by athena99
I don't think UA alone is going to magically fix all of this. Even my dr said I need to address and work through these issues and not just move on thinking they will work themselves out because we are spending time together.

That's a mighty assumption to make, WHEN YOU HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN MEETING THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENT.

Originally Posted by athena99
I am not committed to UA and need to find something that gets me through this ambivalence so that the UA is palatable.

What other things can I be doing since the UA doesn't seem to be working for me? Surely it can't be one-size-fits-all and there are other methods to help gain some clarity so the rest of the program can be implemented.

UA time is the way your affair was created - you lied, wriggled, and stole (from your husband and children) to cheat.

You aren't getting enough UA time, and I'd be willing to bet the UA time you do get isn't spent right.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/rei.pdf

Print that out and work with it on your husband. Also, see the thread in 101 on "At home RC."

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Originally Posted by athena99
[But how did you generate feelings for your husband?

WE have told you how. Over and over and over again. They don't come by magic fairy dust. They come by giving your marriage the same care and attention you gave your affair. Schedule 20+ hours per week of UA. [It does not take 4 months to find a babysitter.] Be HONEST with your husband about your feelings about his weight and his kissing. TELL HIM. Tell him how to be a better husband and encourage him to be honest with you too.

The problem with the Marriage Builders program is that you have to actually WORK IT in order for it to work. It does not work by osmosis, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here as your guide.

While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I am not committed to UA
There's your problem.

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and need to find something that gets me through this ambivalence so that the UA is palatable.
It's called "making a choice."

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What other things can I be doing since the UA doesn't seem to be working for me? Surely it can't be one-size-fits-all and there are other methods to help gain some clarity so the rest of the program can be implemented.
This program will not work without UA time. The problem is not UA, but that you are not committed to UA, and are neglecting it.

Meet your husband's intimate EN for 20 hours a week. ALLOW him to meet yours (that means you will need to be honest with him -- HOW do you like him to kiss you?). Try it for awhile. Your feelings will follow.

Don't make the same mistake I did. I hemmed and hawed about UA for 5 months because I hated spending time with my husband -- he wasn't what I wanted, I hated the things he did, I hated him (yadda, yadda, excuse, excuse). I just couldn't make myself do it. I never really gave UA a chance.

My marriage is now in shambles. I'm desperately trying to pick up the pieces, hoping against hope that my husband will give me a second chance.

UA time won't work (and thus, this program will not work) if you don't CHOOSE to commit yourself to it. And your marriage will fail.


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How much weight does he need to lose?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by athena99
I am confident that the feelings for OM will fade - I am sure he has moved on in his marriage and that chapter is done. But how did you generate feelings for your husband? I feel like other WS already have that committment once their A ends and that enables them to put in the effort to fix things. I didn't wake up after the A ended and feel like BH was my soul mate and I was so sorry for what I did. I know I made a mistake and don't like the person I have become who was able to behave like that. I am sorry I hurt BH. But I still don't feel like my marriage has been or ever be what I now know I want out of it.

It's not that I feel I am punishing him for not meeting my needs before - please don't think that. I just don't know how to move on when the way he has been all of these years is just not what I want anymore and I don't have confidence that he can change. I know I should give him that chance, but also feel like I don't have the rights to make those requests because of my bad behavior.

There's a reason I only answered one part of your question, and the reason is that I haven't completely figured out the rest of it myself yet. I'm reading along in your thread for ideas on how to get there.

The truth is, my feelings for my H still are not what I would like them to be. EN's are still going unmet for me as well, and UA time isn't being perfectly met.

Though I'm not sure I believe in the concept of a "soul mate." All relationships take work. I don't think there's one perfect person waiting out there for me that everything would just be effortless and wonderful with. I think my marriage can be what I would like it to be. That's why I'm still here. I still have hope that we can work through these issues and fall back in love again. But I'm not there yet, so it's difficult for me to offer advice in that area.


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Does anyone know of a marriage recovery program that works when you don't work it? I am thinking that is what is needed here. A program that works by magic. Magic Marriage!! laugh

Actually, I know of lots of marriage programs that don't work when you DO work them. grin


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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@Athena -

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I want what I felt I had with OM. Something comfortable and safe with I man I am attracted to and am emotionally attached to.

This is pure Fantasy on your part. What you are saying is: I wish my BS was POSOM. Stop the Contrast Effect. This is part of the reason your BS is not attractive. POSOM is a POS. He is not safe and he really didn't have an emotional attachment to you. He dumped you when he was losing his marriage. You were second choice. Do you want BS to treat you like this?

You are really setting up your BH for further failure.

After getting some UA time your BS is O&H with you and what do you do you? Complain and start picking him apart, because he isn't POSOM! See how he can't win? He77 if he does He77 if he doen't.

You really need to get out of this Fog that POSOM is something wonderful!

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I just don't know how to move on when the way he has been all of these years is just not what I want anymore and I don't have confidence that he can change.
This is very unfair to your H, Athena. Why are you not addressing your needs with him? You don't like the way he kisses? Tell him that. Tell him you would like to see him lose some weight.

Why are you not sharing with him the very things that are hanging you up? You're not in this alone. Your partner needs to know these things.


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So, what is it, Athena?

A little stash? A photo?

Has OM been in contact?

Why is it that you keep pining for a man for whom you meant little more than a trophy lay?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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I am being very honest - NC in 4 months. No momentos, no photos, no reminders - just memories. And they are good ones. Yes, we both dumped each other when the [censored] hit the fan, but we knew we needed to try and fix our marriages or we would always regret not trying. So I didn't really expect anything else from OM.

BH doesn't need to lose any weight. I would like him to work out so he has muscle instead of being so soft. OM wasn't in the best physical shape, yet I looked past it because I had deep feelings for him and he was confident in his body. I see the irony in that I shattered BH's confidence, so of course he doesn't have it. And I am probably grasping at straws about what BH needs to change, hoping that any change will help me become attracted to him.

The biggest thing is, I have tried to talk to him about this stuff and he gets frustrated that I keep on stabbing him with it. I try not to be hurtful but no matter how I bring it up, he doesn't want to hear about his flaws. He can't handle the truth and doesn't want to talk about anything that paints him in a less than perfect light.

I am not without my faults either, but I am trying to change. Is it too much to ask that he try too? I know it isn't.

I am pining for a man that treated me better than any other man in my life ever did. The circumstances were terrible, we were scumbags, and we lied to each other - but it still felt better than BH ever made me feel. Yes, probably the fog speaking and I should try to get the UA in so the fogginess goes away.


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I am pining for a man that treated me better than any other man in my life ever did. The circumstances were terrible, we were scumbags, and we lied to each other
Is that really the best way any man has ever treated you? Terrible ... Scumbags ... Lies ... But it was great!

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Yes, probably the fog speaking and I should try to get the UA in so the fogginess goes away.
Yep.


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Be careful when walking up the stairs, Athena. The fog is so thick, I don't imagine you can see any of them.

He did not treat you better than anyone else. He didn't respect you. You don't treat someone your truly love and care for the way he treated you.

He treated you like an unpaid hooker. You should think about that. And he disrespected your entire life. He was willing to help you compromise your character, harm your children, and hurt your husband.

He's a winnah. Not.


Thanks for all the support along the way.
I wish you all well. I'm outta here.
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Originally Posted by athena99
I am being very honest - NC in 4 months. No momentos, no photos, no reminders - just memories. And they are good ones. Yes, we both dumped each other when the [censored] hit the fan, but we knew we needed to try and fix our marriages or we would always regret not trying. So I didn't really expect anything else from OM.

BH doesn't need to lose any weight. I would like him to work out so he has muscle instead of being so soft. OM wasn't in the best physical shape, yet I looked past it because I had deep feelings for him and he was confident in his body. I see the irony in that I shattered BH's confidence, so of course he doesn't have it. And I am probably grasping at straws about what BH needs to change, hoping that any change will help me become attracted to him.

The biggest thing is, I have tried to talk to him about this stuff and he gets frustrated that I keep on stabbing him with it. I try not to be hurtful but no matter how I bring it up, he doesn't want to hear about his flaws. He can't handle the truth and doesn't want to talk about anything that paints him in a less than perfect light.

I am not without my faults either, but I am trying to change. Is it too much to ask that he try too? I know it isn't.

I am pining for a man that treated me better than any other man in my life ever did. The circumstances were terrible, we were scumbags, and we lied to each other - but it still felt better than BH ever made me feel. Yes, probably the fog speaking and I should try to get the UA in so the fogginess goes away.


This is where things get frustrating with you. You have a good head, it's just inserted rectally at times.

See the highlighted text? You kind of answer your own questions there.

So now, I wonder who suffers more from learned helplessness, you or your BH.

When it comes to recovering the M, seems like it's you.

dramaqueen

"I just don't love him! I don't think I ever did, I don't think I ever will!"

dramaqueen

Quote
In 1965, a scientist named Martin Seligman started shocking dogs.

He was trying to expand on the research of Pavlov � the guy who could make dogs salivate when they heard a bell ring.

Seligman wanted to head in the other direction, and when he rang his bell instead of providing food he zapped them with electricity. To keep them still, he restrained them in a harness during the experiment.

After they were conditioned, he put these dogs in a big box with a little fence dividing it into two halves.

They figured if they rang the bell, the dog would hop over the fence to escape, but it didn�t. It just sat there and braced itself.

They decided to try shocking them after the bell. The dog still just sat there and took it.

When they put a dog in the box which had never been shocked before and tried to zap it � it jumped the fence.

You are just like these dogs.

If, over the course of your life, you have experienced crushing defeat or pummeling abuse or loss of control, you learn over time there is no escape, and if escape is offered, you will not act � you become a nihilist who trusts futility above optimism.

Are you a dog in a cage, Athena?

I happen to think you are slightly more intelligent than a canine being threatened with electric shock.

And yet, knowing the consequences of inaction, you pout and sulk, and surrender.

I understand the emotional aversion. I really do. My emotions have told me a hundred times to just kick FWW to the curb and get on with my life. But, that isn't really the BEST for myself, for my wife, or for my children, is it?

Giving up serves you no better.

I'll tell you, though, that regaining my confidence was not a happy thing, at first, for FWW - because one of the first things my confidence told me is that I no longer had to put up with her treating me like crap, that I was capable of making any woman I chose to a very happy woman, and that if she did not commit to this marriage and recovering it, that woman dang sure would not be her.

You've got the tools, you've got the smarts... now quit being so damn whiny and lazy.

And you say your husband is wimpy?

Puh.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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I really hope you don't have anything that digs up memories and feelings.

See the little quote in my sig line?

Have you ever watched that movie? If not, I suggest you do. It's a fine example of how preserving "good memories" of a toxic relationship blinds you to what is right before your eyes every day.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by athena99
but also feel like I don't have the rights to make those requests because of my bad behavior.

This,

I totally get. It is a quandry. How do you tell someone what is wrong without hurting him anymore? What right do we have?

It sounds like coaching would be good for you. He needs someone to tell him to man up and for various reasons it probably won't work coming from you.


I don't feel like Athea is the only one who wants things to "magically" get better. She wants her husband to step up and fight.

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Athena99,

I read through all the advice you were given, all rock solid plans and ideas, but girl you are not interested in saving your marriage, you keep going back to the comparisons between the OM and your husband, you would rather feel good about someone who didn't respect you, lied to his own wife and carried on an affair in the eyes of God...........Why is that Athena, I think the problem lies with you and the way you allow yourself to think, you are desperately hanging on to that fantasy world, the feelings, you are not seeing that relationship or that man for what it really was, that is sad Athena.
You are worth more than that, you are allowing your past to stop you from being someone who can respect themselves..........it's not worth it........
You will always be unhappy if you continue to think this way........If the OM really was an upstanding man, he would have saved your relationship, he would have stayed with you...........but Athena he followed his heart and it really wasn't with you, just in the fantasy world you have allowed yourself to believe.
What you should be thinking is that you are grateful for a 2nd chance with your husband and family after everything you have done and continue to do to them.
You are still acting very hurtful and still saying hurtful things.......what do you expect................no one is just going to stand there and be a punching bag, you leave your husband no choice but to say to you, I'll give you time to fix what is wrong inside of you.............if he was saying I'm not attracted to you, I'm only going through the motions would you feel loved, I bet you wouldn't.
You are asking so much of him, maybe you need to just get yourself together before you put any more burden on anyone else.............Why don't you separate or stay with family until your head is clearer............if you are truly finished because of the way you think then leave and start over.............this isn't fair to your husband, you are still emotionally attached to someone else, someone who doesn't even deserve to be in the picture, you are married Athena.......
Until that emotional connection is gone, you should let your husband move on.......
If you can't get on board, why hurt him more.......


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Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
I totally get. It is a quandry. How do you tell someone what is wrong without hurting him anymore? What right do we have?

How about this; failing to be radically honest Pre-A is what made you and your marriage vulnerable to adultery.

Yes, it's hard to consider approaching the trauma patient with requests when they are still bleeding. Maybe they will react negatively. Who knows?

However, sacrificing your ENs to guilt does not help either of you.

Your spouse cannot deposit units into your LB$ IF THEY DON'T KNOW HOW. And they should know how, and what makes the biggest, and most efficient deposits.


Regular review of the ENQ is one of the best tools available, as it will serve as a facilitating tool to the conversation.


And, if you didn't know; GET YOUR FREAKING UA TIME IN.

We are all guilty from time to time of not meeting the UA requirement - don't let it rule you.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by athena99
I feel selfish and shallow. But in order for him to meet that need, he needs to make a lot of changes. Changes that I don't think I have the right to request and even wonder if they will really make a difference.

Do not call yourself selfish and shallow for being wired the way you are. Everybody wants fulfillment in their relationship and what brings fulfillment is unique for each person.

Dr. Harley says that making requests in marriage is good. He actually says "I want you to make a lot of requests of each other." (I'm trying to quote from memory, so I may be a little off.) He wants both husband and wife to get what they need and what they want in marriage.

You have no right to demands in your marriage, but there is nothing wrong with making requests! The key difference between a demand and a request is that a request will accept "no" for an answer. If the answer is "no," you either think of circumstances under which your spouse might be willing to grant your request, or you withdraw the request. In your case because of the damage from the past the answer to some requests might be "no" now, but "yes," later, so you may need to be somewhat patient.

If you are not sure if a particular change will make a difference or not, just ask to try it. Explain how you feel: I think I might like this, how would you feel about trying it for a week or two? If it doesn't make a difference, don't give up! Keep brainstorming and think of other things you might try until you have the problem solved.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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