Yes, you should absolutely re-evaluate this viewpoint. He absolutely should not be going out to lunch with any female coworkers and he shouldn't have any female friends.

Have you read this: Are Friends a Threat to your Marriage?



Sparkler, have you two discussed opposite sex friendships (not boundaries)? What does he think about having female friends?

Thanks to all of you!

We had a long and cleansing talk yesterday, and today (just before writing this post) I showed him this thread and we discussed several things (conversation, openness in daily matters etc). It was really good and open - felt good. (Although I couldn't refrain from tears yesterday - more like physiological reaction to a deep conversation, not that I was hurt or sth like that; I was quite annoyed at my body for failing me.)

Re: female friends - he hardly has any friends at all, let alone female friends. (He just commented from beside me that the computer is his friend, lol.) So while this woman is for him probably one of the closest people besides his family, I'd say they are not that close in the ordinary meaning of the word.

All in all, it went better than I feared.. I think I could explain respectfully and clearly what O&H means to me, what PORH is for me, how I feel about sharing details of day and so on. According to him, he has not been hiding them from me deliberately, he has just regarded them as too pointless to mention. Not a secret life as such - just the misunderstanding as to what is worth sharing.

We'll see how we manage to implement this new knowledge into our life.

Actually scheduling UA time is probably a good idea - I have this far not been very much into it (seemed kinda awkward), but I see the good sides now.

<I haven't read this whole thread, so my apologies if what I am about to say has already been covered>.


This is actually a violation of not being transparent and not upholding EPs.

EPs are particularly important after an A and one of those EPs MUST be no opposite sex friendships. If he is "close" with a female colleague, this is completely inappropriate.

I would consider this a violation of him not being transparent/not sticking to his EPs before I'd consider it a violation of not meeting the "O" in "O&H".

In case I'm not clear, BOTH the FWS and the BS need to have and adhere to EPs.

My EPs are the same as my FWSs, for example. If it had been this way since the beginning of our M we would not have had to deal with an A.

Sparkler, frankly, this is not clear to me. Did you two read the opposite sex article? There should be NO personal conversation outside work issues and NO one on one time chatting outside or lunches, etc. Did your H agree with this? You really can't afford to be wishy washy on this issue.



The part about the SSL (secret second life) that I was addressing was the fact that he was insulted that you questioned him, so much so that 20 hours later he was still upset. Has he specifically agreed to PORH, including allowing you to question any area of his life? Again, this is something that you want to nail down.

Good job on the scheduling the UA time. Dr Harley actually just wrote to me on the private forum on this issue ~ not only do you need the 15+ hrs of UA time but the point is what you do with that UA time...your goal being to eventually make it the best 15 hrs of your week

Sparkler,

start working on the EPs document. Me and my H we have actually written down the EP's document and signed it digitally. This is the list of do's and don'ts that we implement for protecting our relationship.

Discussing EP's and putting them down will give you a good opportunity to really talk EPs through, you will then have the clear idea how does your H see the actual protection of marriage. This list should absolutely contain the restrictions of how and whether you communicate with opposite sex friends. These restrictions apply for you both. If he starts with this "you had an affair you should have these restrictions not me", then you have a problem. You have to protect your marriage together.

Being so wishy-washy about communicating with opposite sex friends shows that he doesn't really know about EPs. You may assume he knows, but he really doesn't or sees them AS important as they should be seen.

UA time is important. Every time we cut off from UA time we start feeling disconnected, our takers start raising their heads, start assuming things, nagging about things, these are the first signs, for us at least, that we need to take UA time and the quality of it seriously.

Taking a lead in things. That is something we have discussed too. But I've noticed that this is also a sign of little and unproductive UA time, because our needs go unmet and we start feeling restless.

At certain point you feel like you are the one who does everything and leads everything (believe me, he does the same; but most of the time the feeling is deceptive, because you have put yourself on hold, waiting, and at the same time you are as idle as the other one...). It requires a kick in your own butt to start working again.

Has he read the MB materials, dr Harley's books? Is he really on board with these concepts?

Thanks, MF, SusieQ and Niitse!

Well, I actually knew that the EPs apply to both spouses. I guess I just needed a kick in the pants - that the same applies in our marriage as well.


I guess the correct answer is that he has acknowledged and is processing the topic. He didn't read the article. (Yet.)

Niitse, writing down the EPs really seems a good idea plus gives a good topic for conversation. It occurred to me that I did my individual list last summer and after that I haven't even reviewed the text thoroughly (I internalized it hand have been abiding to it, though). After so much time and accumulated wisdom&experience, I bet some changes and clarifications would be in order.

I feel that way too. How wonderful that now I we have the knowledge to recognize the symptoms and the tools to cure - the only problem is that these tools need to be implemented as well


He has read some articles and chapters of books that I have specifically pointed out to him. We had HNHN for parents in our "toilet library" (ok, just a bookshelf, really) for several months, but I don't know if he read it. I have shown and attempted to discuss some chapters of HNHN. I think I read Love Busters just by myself. I would so much more like it if I didn't have to impose this reading on him. As it is now, he more or less "floats along" and kind of reminds me of a school boy (reading just the materials that would be tested afterwards ). (But this kind of goes in the lines of Cemar's threads - I want him to desire doing this stuff :P)

So I'd say that he is not totally on board.

ETA: but I seem to forget to give him credit here at all... When I show him MB stuff, he reads, he listens, he comments (just a little, but still); he gives far more domestic support than he used to (I love it when we share the duties around our home - and this is much due to MB), he is a good, caring, fair and trustworthy father (OK, this he has been from the beginning), he is the breadwinner in our family so I can finish my studies; no AOs, DJs or SDs from him... So many good qualities

Sparkler, I would take a more focused approach and get him to go through the lessons, if you can. If you have the book Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs, you could get the accompanying workbook and go through the lessons.

The program is not going to work piecemeal and it most especially won't work if you aren't getting in 20+ hours of undivided attention meeting the top 4 intimate needs. <-----that is what creates and maintains romantic love. The top 4 intimate EN's are conversation, affection, SF and RC. The best way to do that is to set down and actually schedule this out during the week in 2 to 4 hour blocks. [less than 2 hours really doesn't count] It should be without kids, without TV, without friends, etc.

Doing that step first will get the biggest bang for your buck and will make it easier to implement the WHOLE program. Implementing parts won't get you too far.

The UA worksheet is in the back of that workbook, btw!

Thanks, ML, for your suggestions! I actually have the workbook - when I ordered from amazon, I figured that the more, the better (Yeah, I know - why on earth have we not used it this far??) I'm in a hurry right now, so just a quick question: how come less than 2 hours really doesn't count? It is interesting, I don't think I have ever noticed this statement before and I have read here a LOT. But I may very well have just missed it.

OK... I hope this thread will be combined with my first one, because the other board will probably be more suitable... (already notified).

It is 2AM over here and I should be sleeping in order to get up in 4.5 hours. Instead, I am here.

The two of us have been spending much time together, walking (just the two of us), being together; today was our anniversary and we first went to a day spa, then for dinner, then to run some errands together...

After the spa, we checked our missed calls. I happened to glance over his shoulder and the ex-coworker's name was on the list of previous calls (didn't see if this was a missed, a received or a made call). I just noticed it, but didn't want to bring it up.

Already in bed and after some silence, we started to talk. About us, about the marriage... I am glad he finally got honest with me. I was surprised that he still considers ours a bad marriage; I had had the feeling that it was getting better, even though I had mostly been the one dragging us on, organizing UA time, providing him private time to rest. No wonder he has been so unavailable and in a shell, I thought. Seems that recovery is not as smooth as it had looked.

I couldn't sleep so I got up.. and thought for the first time: would this woman's number still be on the call list of his cell phone?

Guess what... it was not.

I still cannot believe it. There has to be some other explanation.

At least it makes sense... why he would not be enthusiastic spending time with me

I want to ask him about this phone call first thing in the morning, or at least first thing when we are alone... Not a good idea or what?

I don't want to alarm you but there are many red flags being raised and this bears further investigation...

Do you have access to the cell records online? Can you do some snooping into email/FB records? What type of phone is it? Can you slap flexispy on there?

The cell is on his name. No access to the records.

E-mail: I can see one of his accounts, but I am convinced they communicate via his work mail, which I do not see.

He has no FB account, neither has she. (At least as far as I know; not on the real name.)

His phone is a three (?) year old Nokia, it has bluetooth, but I am not sure about spyware.

I still cannot believe it can really be what you think. It would make sense to some of his behaviour... But perhaps I have been here on MB so long that I read too much out of the situation?

Why don't you have access to your H's cell records???

Your H may not be in an A yet but he certainly sounds like he has a SSL (secret second life). It fits perfectly with what Dr Harley describes, getting upset when questioned, not sharing details, erasing things.

Anyway, go to flexispy.com to see if the software will work with your H's model. If not, maybe surprise him with a new phone with the software already slapped on there...

He has never actually wanted my passwords etc. I have given him more or less everything, he has not been interested (as far as I can tell); he said he didn't want to snoop. So him giving me his passwords etc has never been discussed.


Based on the web page, I think his phone is so old it does not support it. A new phone.. usually we buy such things together.

I don't want to spy :S I would hope that he has enough integrity to not lie to me at my face when bring the subject up.

When posters come here asking about whether they should be worried that their spouse is interacting with members of the opposite sex, not being transparent, and erasing things...the advice across the board is to snoop which Dr Harley himself advocates.

We don't question whether the person has "integrity"?? You have been here for a while, you know this!

You need to have his passwords and access to everything, Sparkler. I asked you earlier if he read & agreed with PORH, which would allow you to examine every area of his life and I don't think you ever answered that. Will he give you access to his cell records?

OK, so I am trying not to hammer posters so hard when I have a BAD feeling of the direction they are going...but I am going to try one more time.

Sparkler, the above is another red flag (maybe not a full blown A, but maybe the start of one). Add in the other stuff you have recently told us about, lack of transparency, meeting up with female colleague, getting upset when you questioned him...I am really worried if you don't put some snooping into place and you just question him that he is going to gaslight you and be more careful about hiding things.

He may or may not have an affair, but you don't know that.

Are you afraid of what you might find if you spy or is it something else?

Er... isn't the 6 month - 1 year mark the most common for an "R" A?


Lunkhead should have protected himself! He obviously wasn't interested!

Hello?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2442033&page=1

Snoop! Expose! Squash!