I'll use this approach and you have it correct it is 90% of the time me having issues with something she has done or said to me, or doesn't do to me that is an EN. I won't fall for the fights because every time I do, she goes into Taker mode and won't let me in.

Of course nobody forced me to marry her, I just didn't know what I was getting, or she evolved into this person over time. Yes, the new baby has thrown a wrench in the program, but this is something that has been getting worse over time and will continue to get worse. We did something fun with the family yesterday and it got the conversation going a bit. It started rough, usually with me asking a question and her doing a one sentence answer. I hugged her on the way out the door today and although it was heart felt from me, it was a one arm lightly around my neck from her. She used the word "disgusted" referring to how she feels about me the other day. I'm sure you know how much that hurts to be felt about that way from a spouse. She doesn't disgust me at all, she is frustrating, but I do love her. She clearly has fallen out of love with me and it hurts so bad. If she is not in love with me anymore that would tell me or someone from the outside that I have made it so.

I politely sent her an email about how her being sarcastic about the workbook last night and making a comment about how sex, "ain't gonna happen any time soon" was a bit hurtful. I also stated two things that were nice that she did to balance it out. She sent me a one liner from her phone that said "Sorry about number 3 and 4". That was it no other explanation. I'll take the sorry I guess? Then I get a frantic text that was fairly lengthy about all the hotels being booked for some trip we are going on. So from my perspective spending time reading and replying to my concerns have taken a back seat to travel arrangements in May. I asked her specific questions in the email one being, "Was your sarcasm about the workbook just you putting up a tough exterior? I would appreciate you explaining if that is all it is so that I can "get you" better in the future." Why do I feel as if she is almost laughing at me behind my back?

Although it's hard, try not to fret too much over your W's responses to the overtures you're making, and what they might or might not reveal about her inner thoughts. You can quickly drive yourself crazy wondering and worrying about that.

Focus your energy on your own thoughts and actions -- the things you have control over. Maintain your own integrity. Continue with your program to build the relationship. Try to let your attitude be "I have decided what kind of man I want to be, and I'm working to achieve that goal." That won't keep you from being hurt, but it will help you avoid making yourself crazy by analyzing every little thing your W says and does.

You might tell her that the program works best when both people jump in head first. It means she meets your needs and you meet hers and both of you stop LBing immediately.

I don't know if I'll catch flack for this or not. But you might also tell her that you had not intended on living in a sexless marriage. Honesty. Honesty. Honesty.

Good point!

I've made more than a good effort at being incredibly honest about both of these things. Believe me she knows, but she is not yet willing to put forth the effort in her eyes. She keeps pointing back to being tired with kids about the "effort" in Dr Harley's principles. I can't control what she does so I'll keep focusing on doing what I can control and when I get frustrated with the inevitable inequities there, I'll come here instead, ok?

Absolutely tell her that you do not intend to live in a sexless marriage! BUT, also tell her that you're willing to stop the LBs that have eroded her love for you and meet her ENs in a way that makes her feel loved and valued. Otherwise it sounds like a threat.

To get her to talk to Steve (I assume you know who he is now?), try this: "My goal is to have a marriage where we both are madly in love with each other. I've read a lot about this Marriage Builders program and I think it is right for us because I think it works. I understand that you may be a little skeptical and I respect that. However, I am asking that you join me for a conversation with Steve Harley before you make a final decision about whether this is for us or not. Just a chat on the phone, how about it?"

My H initially said no, no more counseling...I said it wasn't counseling, it was coaching...he said no...I said well I have an appointment with him on [date and time I knew my H would be available], I don't know what to do here and *I* need a coach, but I do wish you would join me so he can get both sides. Oh yeah, he was there to give his side, bwa-ha-ha. H was READY for SH to straighten me out.

Yep considering very much the chat with Steve. For now I'm trying to avoid LB's at all costs, even more so than the EN's. Fights equal 48 hours of starting over at ground zero every time. I can't afford that so for now I'm trying to make it pleasant enough to where I can work on the next step. Because the LB's from her are typically so frequent that we literally don't speak unless she's insulting me, I'm letting her know politely about each one about every other LB. This may not be the right way, but for now I need some momentum and if I call her on each LB, then it will inevitably lead to so much irritation that we'll never get anywhere.

I did call to plan a date night with babysitters and everything today. It was a weeknight date which she's never had a problem with, but she shut it down and pushed it off to a weekend. Instead of getting upset and looking at it as yet another push off, I took a deep breath and said, sure! A date on Friday is more important than nothing, in fact it is great despite her intentions.
Today was pretty pleasant all day. I'm just letting off the gas and giving her some space and letting things happen a bit more. I definitely think some of my own stress has creeped in her a bit. I have no life. I have friends, but none that I do anything with anymore. If we hang out it is always when our families and kids all get together. On the flip side my wife has a dozen friends she does stuff with. this is my mistake and I'm gonna make sure I call up some buddies and get some outlets as well. The only buddy I really can talk to about this now is getting a divorce so I don't think he's the best for advice at this point! Thanks for everything I'm learning a lot and am in a good place tonight, I plan on it lasting but don't hesitate to slap me around if need be, ok?

Just be sure that you schedule your 15 hours with your wife FIRST.

Just an idea here, to disarm her insults/complaints: she says something snarky, and you respond with a smile, an "I love you. I'll work on that," and an affectionate gesture like squeezing her hand or kissing it. Then go work on it! I don't know what she's saying. Of course, if she's just viciously tossing out names, an "Ouch," is quite effective. Just "Ouch" and walk away.

But if it's something like, "Can't you take out the trash???" or "Why do I have to do everything around here???" or even "You don't know anything about Dostoevsky!", a smile and an ILU and a promise to work on it followed by action will be incredibly effective. With an added bonus of confusing the heck out of her if she's accustomed to you being her sparring partner.

Definitely don't turn to divorced/divorcing people IRL for advice. My H was in the habit of talking to single people, cheaters, and divorced people for marital advice. BIG mistake. Of course, the folks on here are better educated on MB than your regular run-of-the-mill IRL folk, even if they are divorced or former cheaters, so give them an ear.

A great piece of advice I heard in church was to only seek advice from people who already are where you want to be.

Great advice! Yesterday was good all in all. This morning was pretty good, I made her coffee and put a note on there that said "you are appreciated". I got a "thanks for the coffee" from upstairs. She made one semi-snarky comment this morning about a bill that we owe that suggested that it was somehow my fault for some late charge that we incurred. It was something really small so I just let it go and the rest of the morning was ok. I called her friend this morning to see if she was free to come pick up my wife one night this week to get out of the house away from the kids and relax for a couple hours. Hopefully she'll appreciate that. I know that I need to get her time with me but for now she is just so tired and not in a place where she wants to even do that thus far. I can't force her to spend time with me right so I'm gonna have to take what I can get. The 15 hours a week rule is pretty challenging with a 4 month old baby needless to say.

Sorry I havent been around in a while .. been spending my much needed UA time with my wife lately in the evenings ... and works been busy, so I havent had a chance to get on here much.

Wow Hilltopper your sure stepping up to the plate! Your getting some great advice from some of the other vet posters. Looks good on you that your taking initiative and focusing on being the hubby your wife wants you to be and not letting your wifes negativity get to you too much. I know sometimes it can be frusterating .. but your doing all the right things. Your wifes love bank is most likely still in the red .. but as you keep filling it up she will eventually begin to respond to you in a much better manner as it approaches the neutral zone .. and then into the GREEN zone!

Keep it up!

Absoultely... As her love bank fills and you plug all the holes in it by stopping the LB's Then eventually you will pull yourself out of the negative love bank balance and back into the positive .. and eventually start gaining interest on your investment! But you gotta get "out of debt" so to speak. When she sees your consistancy (like i previously mentioned pages ago) and you dont drain the Love bank with some sort of love buster (whatever she describes them as) then you will be well on your way to having her fall deeply in love with you again.

I myself am really only a few months into what I would call recovery (no real infedelity tho thank god) And we are unwinding the downward spiral we were on and the rollercoaster I was on is finally coming to a stop and we can get back on the merry go round lol. But I took since 2007 (not consistantly tho unfortunatley as I struggled with love busters alot and so did my wife)

Your doing great Hilltopper! Put a smile on your face .. and let it all roll off your back and continue being consistant in EN meeting for your wife even if shes not meeting yours ... she eventually will.

p.s. did you see my post on how to quote? Make sure your reply is after the [/quote ] command

When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine? I explored it but I don't think there is any infidelity of any kind, emotional or other. I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well. I think she was into it which is awesome! She used to be that person in the relationship which makes is so strange the tables have flipped wouldn't you say! Do you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about? I'm pleased that you are in recovery and great stories I think would do wonders for me.

Mine .. because neither one of us knew what an EA was until we discovered MB.



Was she enthusiastic about this? Reason I ask is because your most enjoyable times should be spent together. There is a recreational enjoyment inventory that you can download and fill out together. It will help you guys identifiy activities that you both enjoy so you can spend some "fun" time together reconnecting at a social level to begin being intimate again.

Recreational inventoy link - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.html


Sure! I will tell you this much. Over the last 2 months especially since we have finished the love busters book, she has been apologizing for her negative behaviours and love busters! Well we have been together for 16 years (im 32) and this year she has apologized to me more than she has ever in our entire relationship! Like about 6 or 7 times now. Usually its me keeping the peace .. even if i feel im right and doing the apologizing. This didnt start happening though until her love bank for me was well into the green.

She now meets my top 5 needs on a fairly consistant basis. Especially since she has been taking maca root. It has totally helped her energy levels.

She told me to keep track of her cycle and warn her of her PMS week. She likes this because then it helps her identify her own unbalanced feelings. And is no longer offended when i mention its coming up.

SF has become amazing and is to the point now where shes initiating it often enough that i no longer feel like im starving emotionally anymore. Kinda like she knows im going to be hungry soon so she "feeds me" before it effects my mood. So it is becoming easier to initiate for her because im no longer "suffocating" her or "smothering" her as she used to indicate alot and associate it with my "neediness". She understands now its not just physical, but that us guys get the same emotional feelings that they do when they get intimate conversation.

So just keep doing your thing ... POJA EVERYTHING! ... fill her emotional needs as often as you can .. blow her mind. Stop reacting emotionally to her when she is being emotional. Be her "rock" and before ya know it .. it will all fall into place and you'll feel like you just met again and the puppy love will come back.



p.s. Your getting better at your "quoting" too .. good job!

Thanks for the great news from your marriage, hopefully that is me months from now or sooner. To answer your question about my wife and I doing fun stuff together, she kind of pushes it away to be honest. I was trying to arrange for babysitters during the week for us to go out but she kind of shut it down as too much of a pain with the kids, school, etc. I don't automatically assume that this is because of me, I think a lot of it has to do with dealing with two kids and an infant and she's just tired. In fact a lot of this has to do with the birth of our third child. It kind of made it boil over as the little EN's I might have been getting were completely shutout as that attention was thrown to the baby. I guess I woke up one day thinking to myself, what has this become? We have no marriage whatsoever. The fighting started getting worse because I was demanding change and it was the absolute wrong time to do so with a new baby on our hands. All of it makes sense I guess and although I'm still very, very unhappy and unfulfilled at least I'm better prepared and have a plan in place. My wife still isn't reading LB yet, she has twice so far so maybe two chapters so the advice of suggesting that we do it together keeps getting pushed away so I'm backing off just a tad and am focusing on zero LB's which is very, very hard. I get unhappy, I stew about stuff, then I get silent, she knows it, then I tell her how I'm not getting this or that or that she hurt be, etc. I hugged her this morning cause I wanted to, she dropped her arms to the side and didn't hug me back(It's been this way as long as I can remember). I told her, "it would be great if you could hug me back when I hug you" and left it at that. Normally I would press her on it and come to conclusions about how she is feeling, why she does it, etc. I have a habit of getting in her head and she gets pissed deservedly so. The truth is it doesn't matter why she doesn't hug me back, it only matters that I express this form of affection as an important EN for me politely and respectfully. I have a hunch we'll get somewhere, but the patience side of me struggles after about 48 hours which is how long its been since our last big fight. I'm gonna be a good boy and be nice and avoid the LB's all day today and tonight. I'll check in later!

So I snooped on my wife's cell phone bill to see if there was anything concerning to me in terms of some kind of EA or other. I haven't found anything, but while looking at her statement I noticed something that concerned me big time. Yesterday she spent a total of 2.46 hours on the phone with various friends. The day before was a modest 1.7 hours of talk time. This doesn't include text time which happens all day as well. I've known for years my wife likes to talk and many women I know do in general. Should or could this be a red flag of sorts about her seeking others to fulfill her EN's? Do any of you women in this forum spend 2+ hours a day on the phone if not for work purposes? I need to get good at meeting her EN's, really good. I have no confidence in this area. She sent me her list and I sent her mine. She is not meeting any of mine as of yet and although I'm not ok with that, I just have to take the lead and rise above it. Her list is SO overwhelming to me I just don't know where to start. She mentioned Romance as a part of her Affection EN. I'm very affectionate in general physically, but I guess not any other way and I know this. I'm having a hard time not feeling stupid when it comes to this. What I'd really like to do is tackle romance and affection first and foremost before moving on to the rest, but I will be aware of them the other EN's as not to cause a LB. Help me be romantic! Here is a quote of her EN for Affection so you can read it for yourselves and come up with some suggestions for me:

"Affection: Where is the romance? Hmm I don't think you were even romantic when we dated and it's never really been your strong point. I'm not talking about flowers. I'm talking about follow through with a sweet idea, make a bath for me, a note, set up massages for us. Have the kids make me something and frame it. The most unromantic thing is I just have to have my needs met no matter what today, I don't care what else happens. Every girl likes a little romance or creativeness."

So I've done two baths, and three notes of late. I bought her some lotto tickets a couple times cause she digs that stuff. I ordered some new underwear from Victoria's Secret which she wears. I want to keep being thoughtful, insightful, and unique if at all possible. I definitely don't want to be cheesy! Do I feel stupid about the romance thing because of my own insecurities or lack of confidence? How do I get past that?

The simplest thing to do would be to ask her for more specifics on romance. The better thing to do would be to pay attention. The sneaky thing to do would be to VR her conversations with her friends.

Whatever she ranked as her #1 EN is where you need to start.

Have you filled out the LBQ?

Have I or have both of us? I have she has not, like I mentioned before between the infant and her being disgusted with our marriage she's been very hesitant and standoffish about this whole thing. I'm not sure what you mean about VR(voice record?) her conversations with her friends. To find out about romance or to find out if she is fulfilling her EN's with her friends first?