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Originally Posted by june72
The American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the National Association of Social Workers identify sexual orientation as "not merely a personal characteristic that can be defined in isolation. Rather, one�s sexual orientation defines the universe of persons with whom one is likely to find the satisfying and fulfilling relationships":

Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as a characteristic of the individual, like biological sex, gender identity, or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is always defined in relational terms and necessarily involves relationships with other individuals. Sexual acts and romantic attractions are categorized as homosexual or heterosexual according to the biological sex of the individuals involved in them, relative to each other. Indeed, it is by acting�or desiring to act�with another person that individuals express their heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. This includes actions as simple as holding hands with or kissing another person. Thus, sexual orientation is integrally linked to the intimate personal relationships that human beings form with others to meet their deeply felt needs for love, attachment, and intimacy. In addition to sexual behavior, these bonds encompass nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support, and ongoing commitment.

Case No. S147999 in the Supreme Court of the State of California, In re Marriage Cases Judicial Council Coordination Proceeding No. 4365(�) - APA California Amicus Brief - As Filed" (PDF). http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/...chological_Assn_Amicus_Curiae_Brief.pdf. Retrieved 2010-12-21.


Best smile
All that this is saying is that you cannot just "be gay" or "be straight". You come to be defined as heterosexual or homosexual by entering into relationships with other people. Heterosexuality and homosexuality do not exist as states without the relationships through which they are expressed.

Why did you post that? How does that relate to the discussion being had here?


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Originally Posted by Aradia
2) assuming that love can only be romantic. He could have deeply platonically loved his wife

Aradia, have you read the basic concepts here? It's one of the things you agree to do when you sign up for the forum.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Aradia
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, sugarcane.
That's fine. I didn't ask you to agree with me. You posted an argument and I posted mine. There is no need for us to agree, and I wasn't seeking that.

I think it's pretty evident when people are debating and repeatedly disagree on the same points, that when one of them says "we'll just have to agree to disagree" it means "I'm so done talking to you now, we're not going to see eye to eye and you're bringing nothing new to the table, so this conversation is just a waste of my time." I have better things to do than uh-huh, nuh-uh, uh-huh, nuh-uh all day. So bye bye laugh

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Aradia
2) assuming that love can only be romantic. He could have deeply platonically loved his wife

Aradia, have you read the basic concepts here? It's one of the things you agree to do when you sign up for the forum.

Yes of course I did.

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Originally Posted by Aradia
I think it's pretty evident when people are debating and repeatedly disagree on the same points, that when one of them says "we'll just have to agree to disagree" it means "I'm so done talking to you now, we're not going to see eye to eye and you're bringing nothing new to the table, so this conversation is just a waste of my time." I have better things to do than uh-huh, nuh-uh, uh-huh, nuh-uh all day. So bye bye laugh
That is indeed a waste of anyone's time. I don't know why you chose to come here and do that and it is good that you have decided to stop.


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Hi,
I think I struck a nerve here.
I posted it b/c of this statement:
Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as a characteristic of the individual, like biological sex, gender identity, or age


Because, respectfully in my opinion you can not change your sexuality just like you can not change your gender or age.





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Originally Posted by Aradia
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Aradia
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, sugarcane.
That's fine. I didn't ask you to agree with me. You posted an argument and I posted mine. There is no need for us to agree, and I wasn't seeking that.

I think it's pretty evident when people are debating and repeatedly disagree on the same points, that when one of them says "we'll just have to agree to disagree" it means "I'm so done talking to you now, we're not going to see eye to eye and you're bringing nothing new to the table, so this conversation is just a waste of my time." I have better things to do than uh-huh, nuh-uh, uh-huh, nuh-uh all day. So bye bye laugh

Aradia, you were the first one who used the phrase "agree to disagree," here.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by june72
Hi,
I think I struck a nerve here.
I posted it b/c of this statement:
Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as a characteristic of the individual, like biological sex, gender identity, or age


Because, respectfully in my opinion you can not change your sexuality just like you can not change your gender or age.

Actually, you can change your gender through surgery (Chas Bono, anyone?), and I lie about my age all the time! laugh Those are ACTIONS TAKEN, just like sexual actions. They can be chosen.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Here perhaps this will explain things better
This is from the American Psych Assoc

Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles;
most people experience little or no sense of
choice about their sexual orientation.
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/orientation.aspx
(PDF file)

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True surgery can now do this but you still are inherently born male or female.

I am going through the APA site and reading that sexuality it not a choice or behavior but they way a person is. That there is no choice in your sexual orientation.

Last edited by june72; 04/14/11 08:58 AM.
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The National Mental Health Association says, �Most researchers believe sexual orientation is complex, and that biology plays an important role. This means that many people are born with their sexual orientation, or that it�s established at an early age.�

smile

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Originally Posted by june72
Hi,
I think I struck a nerve here.
I don't know that you did - but I think you were HOPING to.

Originally Posted by june72
I posted it b/c of this statement:
Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as a characteristic of the individual, like biological sex, gender identity, or age
Why didn't you quote the rest of the statement? It goes on to say that sexual orientation is discussed as a characteristic, but it canot stand as a characteristic outside of the relationships through which it expressed . It only becomes an "orientation" once it is expressed in relationships with other people.

Originally Posted by june72
Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as a characteristic of the individual, like biological sex, gender identity, or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is always defined in relational terms and necessarily involves relationships with other individuals. Sexual acts and romantic attractions are categorized as homosexual or heterosexual according to the biological sex of the individuals involved in them, relative to each other.
I still don't understand how that statement was intended to contribute to the discussion.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by june72
Hi,
I think I struck a nerve here.
I posted it b/c of this statement:
Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as a characteristic of the individual, like biological sex, gender identity, or age


Because, respectfully in my opinion you can not change your sexuality just like you can not change your gender or age.

Actually, you can change your gender through surgery (Chas Bono, anyone?), and I lie about my age all the time! laugh Those are ACTIONS TAKEN, just like sexual actions. They can be chosen.

Zing!

Caught the opening!


Wooohooo!


Word choice, word choice...


Yes, you can have your innie converted to an outie, and vice-versa - however, neither of those surgeries will allow you to produce the reproductive cells that go along with the external equipment.

Oh, yeah. You will also only have the external equipment.

Sorry, ladies... no pregnant men on these boards.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Aradia
(think how you would feel if someone was calling your sexual attraction to women in general just a behavior that you could totally change and start having sex with men instead, no big deal).

That's pretty much exactly what Dr. Harley says, and I don't think any straights here are offended by it. I could be wrong.

Right?

Um, prison anyone? Artificially remove the entire female population, and what do you get?



"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by june72
The National Mental Health Association says, �Most researchers believe sexual orientation is complex, and that biology plays an important role. This means that many people are born with their sexual orientation, or that it�s established at an early age.�

smile
The qualifiers in that statement make it hard to see any conclusive evidence of fixed, polar, unchangeable, genetically-established sexualities.

In any case, the statement does not suggest that when a married couple consult Dr Harley, having had a marriage that started with ENs being met and feelings of love, and that included sexual acts and that now includes children, that Dr Harley should tell the man who has had a same-sex affair that he is gay and that the marriage should be ended.

There were once strong enough feelings for the couple to have married. There were on at least some occasions strong enough sexual feelings for the sexual act to be completed and children to have been created. Some element of the man's sexuality must have found his wife attractive enough for him to have fallen in love and persuaded her that he loved her enough that they could marry.

Dr Harley works with that element and he has been successful in restoring marriages after gay affairs, gay porn or other same-sex desires. What is your argument here? Do you wish to see those marriages abandoned? Why, if they can be saved?


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There was more selective quoting by you from this paper:

Originally Posted by june72
Here perhaps this will explain things better
This is from the American Psych Assoc

Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles;
most people experience little or no sense of
choice about their sexual orientation.
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/orientation.aspx
(PDF file)

But under the section "What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation", the APA writes

"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation." http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/orientation.aspx#

The importance of that section was not in the final sentence, the one you chose to detach from the rest of the paragraph.



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MelodyLane, thank you for sharing the excerpt from Defending Traditional Marriage! I've had the feeling a number of times that people here don't really know what Dr. Harley believes on this subject, so it will be good to have a definitive source to point them to. I've even gotten the sense from a couple of folks that they sort of felt betrayed to discover this, so I think it's good to put it more prominently out in the open. (Although the book has always been sitting there in the bookstore, it stood out to me, the first time I looked at the store.)

As I mentioned, Defending Traditional Marriage is essentially the only Marriage Builders book that I don't own ... any chance of someone posting the table of contents? The ToC isn't available on Amazon for this book as it is for many of Dr. Harley's other books.

Last edited by markos; 04/14/11 10:55 AM.

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This topic has wavered off course and I think a few important points have been missed as a result.

First off, let me say I am a strong supporter of gay rights including gay marriage. So please don't misunderstand what I am saying here.

Second, this board is about building and preserving marriages. The concepts described here are intended to help create and maintain loving marriages, and save them from destruction from things like affairs. People come here when their marriage is in trouble looking for advise to save it. Their troubles come in a variety of forms, but the basic concepts still hold.

It is not rare for someone who is intrinsically gay to have married due to society or religious pressures. While these may not be the best reasons for marriage, they are probably not the worst, either. They are certainly better than marrying for money or for a green card (at least in my opinion as I believe those reasons cheapen marriage but I digress). In any event, they have made a lifetime commitment to their spouse. If marriage is to count for anything at all, that commitment has to be important.

I also don't feel that being in a lifetime sexual commitment with someone who is not the gender you are attracted to is the worst possible tragedy in the world. It doesn't even rank up there with parapalegics or people who lost their sight, limbs etc in accidents. It is certainly unfortunate, but it's not the worst thing that can happen and it still goes back to the fact that they made the decision to marry in the first place!!!

I understand societal and religious pressures can be strong. But they exist in all facets of life. One has to make decisions carefully - especially decisions involving lifelong commitments. Once the decision is made, you can't go back.

Oh but in marriage you can. Divorce is easy. Sure it is, but what does that say about you (failure to follow through on commitment) and society (failure to support the institution of marriage). But that's another topic.

Anyway, it comes down to this: coming out of the closet is not a good reason to break up the marriage in and of itself. It is still walking out on your commitment. It is certainly possible to work torwards having a fulfilling marriage despite this. Parapalegics find a way to have a fulfilling life and their challenges are far, far greater. The key is that you have to WANT to work torwards that fulfilling marriage.

The message to children? That despite obstacles such as this, a marriage is worth working for and that a commitment - a vow - is something sacred that ought to be honoured if only for your own self integrity but also for those around you who will be adversely affected otherwise!

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I don't think the important points you made have been missed, Tabby. I think they have been consistently and systematically made by supporters of Marriage builders to those who came seeking to disrupt.


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
There was more selective quoting by you from this paper:

Originally Posted by june72
Here perhaps this will explain things better
This is from the American Psych Assoc

Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles;
most people experience little or no sense of
choice about their sexual orientation.
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/orientation.aspx
(PDF file)

But under the section "What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation", the APA writes

"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation." http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/orientation.aspx#

The importance of that section was not in the final sentence, the one you chose to detach from the rest of the paragraph.

I want to back you up further with a few different notions here;

Most identified behavioral genes aren't like marking a dead-set guarantee for a behavior, but more likely a behavioral set.

For instance; the "Type A" personality is a genetic behavioral set. This behavioral set often includes things like fearlessness, aggression, and/or lack of remorse.

In one setting, this behavioral set may lead a person to be; a firefighter, a police officer, a high-rise window washer, a soldier.

In another setting, this behavioral setting may lead a person to be; a gang member, a serial killer, a mafia hit-man.

These examples consider the tendency toward a certain behavioral set based on genetics, and take into account possible social/familial/cultural influence, but cannot predict cognitive influence.

For instance, when the predicted social/familial/cultural setting produces a person who adapts the opposite application of the behavioral set; the rich kid who is educated and has a good family becoming a serial killer, or the kid with an 8th grade education and a single mother who works three jobs, and happens to be from gangland who becomes a police officer.

Of course, it is worth mention that any singular genetic behavioral trait would also be working with or against other genetic markers for additional behavioral traits like; loyalty, morality, open-mindedness, etc.

All of these are then also affected by environmental factors.

In effect, the number of factors that influence a person's "being" are so vast and innumerable, that simply settling on 1 or 2 possible causes ignores way too many variables to be reliable.

Thus, the hetero male with homosexual pondering may be triggered by a sexless marriage, increased instances of stimulation of the curiosity, stress, depression, etc.

This does not mean that this man was "born gay," but born to behavioral tendencies toward homosexuality in given environs.

This is why behavioral therapy would reduce the curiosity - the conditions triggering the behavioral set are removed or improved.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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