I'm not saying there are not WW's who return. I don't deny that. What I'm saying is that out of the entire population of WW's, for the reasons stated, the majority do not return to their marriage. They've already dismissed their husband and are planning if they haven't already begun the divorce.

Keep in mind, you see the folks where the WW has returned far more than those whose WW has seen her divorce to completion. Why? Because for those who have a WW return, there is still stuff to work on. For the others, they drift away because once the divorce is done, what is there to work on?

(I'm some kind of weird exception.)

So folks with my story will be underrepresented here because most will likely go away if the program doesn't result in the WW ending her affair and returning home. Therefore, folks get the perception that most BH's win their wives back.

I don't believe that to be the case.

Just look at the over all divorce stats and Dr Harley's own newsletter about why women leave men. He says the women leaving are NOT the ones being betrayed or abused. So they are just leaving. They didn't get their needs met, so they've abandoned their husband and possibly sought out a lover who meets their needs. Not arguing against them getting their needs met. I'm just stating that leaving and closing out their husbands isn't a valid means of getting your needs met, especially if the WW takes on a lover.

Of divorces filed, 2/3rds to 3/4s, depending on the study are filed by women. Do you think the majority of those filed do not get finalized?

Because that's about the only way for the WAW or the WW subset returning to be the majority case is if the majority of the divorces filed by women don't end up finalized.

Since the ones choosing to divorce are typically not the betrayed or the abused, (recall, Dr H says he cannot convince most women in that place to divorce) who does that mean is choosing divorce?

I content the the majority of those divorces are filed by WAW's including the subset WW's

So do you mean to tell me most of those drop their divorces, leave a lover if there is one, and return to the marriage?

Plan A includes exposure, which in the case of OM like my H (was), means that they quickly make a choice to stay in their marriages. Indeed, there might not be any need for a choice. OM like my H know that they have no intention of leaving their wives.

This doesn't mean that the affair is "just sex". I think it's never a simple as "just sex", and I do believe that my H had "in love" feelings for his OW.

His affair was hard for me to break because I did not use either common sense or Marriage Builders. I did not expose to my H's workplace, which would have resulted in his being moved from his post and the overseas travel ended. I did not expose to OWH, which would have resulted in immediate action by him ( and I dare say this would not have been pretty). Also, OWH did not expose to ME, choosing to take his wife's word that the "friendly drinks" between her and my H were over and there was no affair and never had been.

Had either of us exposed the affair when we both, separately, discovered it during its first few months, my H would have ended the affair. That is what he did when I finally exposed to OWH nearly 4 years after my first discovery.

Plan A is about a few different courses of action, and one of the most important of those is exposure to key people. Where a WW is involved with a married OM, she might soon learn that her desire to end her marriage for him is not reciprocated. The realisation that she was "used" (although it is, in truth, more complicated than that) and that her OM will not leave his wife for her and probably always knew that he never would, might well cause the affair to end.

The WW in this scenario might or might not stay in her marriage after being dumped or after waking up to the realisation that the affair has no future, but if she does, at least the BH has a chance of recovery.

Plan A is not just about wooing. We see many affairs ended here because of exposure. Plan A seems to me to be successful in ending the affair in at least 50% of cases where exposure is used.

The only figure I've found is the following:


http://www.divorcereform.org/rates.html#anchor168283

So again, if a man faces a WW or a WAW who chooses to divorce, his chances of success appear to be about 10%. The other 90% will likely end up divorced.

Now that includes both those who do and don't do the plans here. But I recall Dr Harley's radio program where he addressed my question, and he said it's more about the character of the WS than it is about the plans.

He said about 15% end the affair on D-day. However, I doubt all of those actually end up with a recover marriage. But that figure does make the 10% figure appear credible. Some affairs die a natural death. Sometimes the BH will remain. Other times his LB is depleted and he's ready for the divorce by the time the affair flames out.

Others do not end before the divorce is final. Cases where the WS leaves the lover, some may result in relapse, others the BS simply cannot stand the idea of remaining married to the WS.

Certainly, once the WS has filed for divorce, I think the odds are slim there will be any sort of recovery.

No I don't, EE. The majority of those cases do not have husbands who consult with Dr Harley or come here...

...and DO PLAN A, including exposure!

In the wide world as I experience it, women will file for divorce and men will be very upset, but they will accept the filing and await the legal outcome. Thus, they end up divorced.

The percentage of the filed-against men who come to this forum or go directly to Steve Harley and use Plan A, including exposure, is infinitesimal. But of those that do, at least 50% end the affair and have a chance at recovery, according to my very unscientific observations.

Any hard figures on that 50%, or is that just your casual observation?

I believe Dr H also mentions that exposure can make it an "it's us against the world" driving the lovers even closer together. I'm not arguing against exposure. I did it in my case and if someone were to say they wanted to save their marriage, I'd help them post it on a billboard if that's what they want to do.

So where do you get your 50% figure. Do you think it's the same for WW and WH's?

I can see an argument where exposure is more effective on the WW who is concerned about appearances. But I don't know if that results in the ending of more affairs, or further confirmation that leaving her BH is the right course of action.

I have to disagree with your premise here.

I don't think that most women who file for divorce do so because they just randomly decided to leave the marriage. In my case, my husband was verbally/emotionally abusive and was in an EA. I'm the one who filed for divorce.

In my divorce recovery group, most of the divorces were filed by the women and a large percentage of those had abuse and/or affairs during the marriage.

I believe that Dr. Harley's experience that women in my position rarely file for divorce is because the women he is seeing are not a representative sample of all women in marriages with men who are abusive or have affairs. Many, many women look at the situation and decide to get out. I think the ones who come to Dr. Harley for counseling are unusual. They have probably been advised by others to end the marriage and are trying desperately to find someone who can fix the marriage.

I don't know how many BHs come here with WWs who have filed for divorce. Many come with wives who in the midst of their affairs but who have not filed yet.

What I see on this forum is many cases where exposure ends the affair and there is a chance of recovery. Recovery takes a long time and we do not see a high proportion of cases through to the end - to either full recovery or divorce. It must be remembered that recovery is dependent on both spouses doing the work of affair-proofing the marriage and building a good post-affair marriage and NOT on Plan A.

However, I do NOT see the tiny percentage of marriages ENTERING recovery that you find in the statistics.

I think that the majority of posters who turn up and give help to the newly betrayed do it because they see results (among other reasons). I don't think they give their effort and time to a programme that they see not working, or only working 10% of the time at best.

You seem to be looking at statistics, but I look at the forum, and here I see much success.

What?


Your hyperbole is over the top.
This diminishes your credibility.

And in my divorce care group, the women there did not divorce their husbands, but were being divorced by their husbands. Every man was in a similar situation. His wife left, he wanted to fix the marriage, she wouldn't end the affair.

So if Dr H, who sees thousands of these are not a representative sample, how can your divorce recovery group be more representative than Dr H's findings?

You just made the argument that your sample is even less representative than Dr H's. I'm not sure how that refutes what Dr H has observed.

Well, look at what I wrote. "Plan A seems to me..."

Of course I don't have any hard figures! I haven't done a statistical analysis of the forum. I don't have the expertise or the time to do that.

I don't expect that you will value my observation. It is just an opinion.

Yes, I do think it is the same for WWs and WHs. Do you value that opinion?

EE, I wonder how many people here see what you see ON THIS FORUM: a Plan A that rarely works and marriages that fail after affairs in the vast majority of cases.

I don't see that at all, not on this forum.

So show me the majority DO return to their marriages. I've shown my work. Only about 10% of all divorces filed end up in recovered marriages.

Instead of attacking me, bring some facts. How many WAW's or WW's return to their marriages. Not personal observations. Actual studies. How many return.

It's easy to say I'm speaking in hyperbole, why not bring some facts to back it up.

If I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it, and change my tune. But so far, none have brought anything but their personal observations.

Now I may have drawn the wrong conclusion from the facts. But I don't think so.

Remember, I asked Dr Harley how many RECOVER their marriage. Even MelodyLane says that only about 20% have a fully recovered marriage, IIRC. That means 80% don't.

Now some limp along and perhaps that's how you get from 20% to a 65% recovery rate. But would you call limping along until the next crisis that ultimately sinks the marriage a success?

I wouldn't.

So how about, instead of attacking me personally, bring some facts that are clearly convincing. Because so far, I've not seen any facts that would convince me otherwise.

I've seen a lot of personal observation, a lot of speculation. But those using facts appear to be few and far between here.

But your statistic does not say that at all. It says that "10% of all married couples have separated and reconciled." That does nothing to address marriages that a) experience adultery and b) do not separate. Most of the affairs we see here don't ever separate. In fact, I have seen statistics that show that 65% of marriages DO NOT divorce over adultery. That being said, Dr Harley has cited the statistic that only 20% of marriages ever recover from adultery. [general population] They stay together, but they are a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage.

Well as I've said, I have not done any studies of this forum or of Dr Harley's programme, including his online and telephone services. Perhaps somebody here has done them.

I can only speak from my personal observations, which I trust. I see that a high percentage of marriages with an affair crisis enter recovery due to the actions taken after advice from this forum.

Anecdotal.


Your data collection methods are what they call... crappy.

Your entire theory is battered by confirmation bias, so you are only looking for the data which confirms your "hypothesis."

This is why you are consistently failing on peer review.

/salute

I believe you believe it. So it's part of who you are, and that has value.

Do you value my observations and interpretations of the facts?

Do you dispute the facts as presented?

1. Studies indicate that 2/3rds to 3/4's of all divorces are initiated by women.
2. Dr Harley says that the women leaving their husbands typically are not victims of abuse or adultery. When he works with those women, he finds it nearly impossible to convince such women to choose to divorce their abusive or adulterous spouse.

Therefore, the majority of women choosing divorce are neither abused nor betrayed. That doesn't mean abused and betrayed women don't. But they are a smaller percentage of the entire population of women who choose to divorce compared to those who simply walk away and/or have an exit affair.

Fact: Of all divorces filed, only about 10% of those are dropped and some form of marriage recovery occurs.

Fact: Dr Harley has said that about 20% of marriages that face infidelity recover to have "a marriage for a lifetime."

More may avoid or delay the inevitable, but only about 20% actually would be called a successful recovery by Marriage Builders standards.

So again, why is it so difficult to believe what I'm saying?

Once again, I see EnlightenedEx working overtime bastardizing statistics and jumping through hoops to make the case that there is no hope with a WW. What a load of crap. I can point to 4 to 5 RECENT such situations where the affair of a WW was killed and the couple is in recovery.

What is up with the agenda, EE? Just trying to spread the misery and hopelessness because your marriage didn't make it?

So provide some actual data, because the non-scientific observations don't pass my peer review.

Provide actual data that proves your "hypothesis."

It's easy to take shots and say, you have it wrong. But I still see no data that counters what I've suggested.

First of all, when you say "The entire population of WW's" are you including the WW's who keep their adultery a secret for their entire life?
Many, if not most, adulteries go undiscovered.
Many WW's are unhappily married but remain married for various reasons.
Even after their affair dies a natural death.
Some affairs are taken to the grave.

EEx, when you use such language, "the entire population of WW's", something you have no way of knowing, you lose credibility.

Sorry. It is not personal. I am sure you are a very nice man and in person we might be friends.
But to argue your point effectively you cannot throw out such comments.

Twisting meaning. Again, irrelevant to the point because it doesn't account for those who NEVER file for divorce and never separate, which is the majority if 65% of marriages don't split up over adultery.


Nope, he doesn't say that. This is more of your twisting meanings. He said that "65% of marriages affected by affairs stay together. Of those, only 20% really recover." They STAY married in other words.


See above.

In short, this once again proves my point that your "facts" are agenda driven. You have an obvious agenda to make the case on this board that marriages with a WW are hopeless despite the fact that many do recover! They recover at the same rate as affairs where the cheater is the husband.