You know it's bad when you forget whose thread you are posting on. For a minute there, I thought this was yours.

Nothing wrong with a good laugh at all

Stretch -

Compare the tone of your latest posts with how you were when you first started this thread. Take a moment to notice and celebrate how much you've grown (as a person) in a few months' time.

You sound more confident, peaceful, and in-charge of yourself. When you arrive at that Zen-like place of knowing you'll be OK no matter which way the tide shifts, it is amazing at how much seems to change in your life.

Way to go!

Best wishes,
Arpeggi

Love hearing from my zen master Arpeggi
Thanks for checking in
You are so right. I am finding so much more peace and strength. I hope the woman I love finds the will to join me.

Tim,
I read your questions over on NW thread. I will answer here soon

Answers to TB's questions from another thread:

Originally Posted By: TimBurnedWow, Stretch.

I haven't had a chance to run through your story, but if you are doing all those things I wouldn't call that Plan A! I'd call that Plan Love!

All those things you are doing....I miss. I am in Plan A (and also in Divorce). I get no contact...no kisses, no hugs...no "I love you's"

So are you in recovery? If so, are you both going to Marriage Counseling? How's that working?

And the making love part... wow! Even with all that romance, your WW won't commit to the Marriage?

I'm no expert but are you sure she's not still in an EA or PA?

(Sorry to T/J again, but I'm confused about Stretch's situation...)


We are not in Recovery. We are in MC. Have been for more than a year now. But the "Real" work didn't start until recently with a new counselor, and hasn't really started until after D-Day plus Exposure plus some time for the Emotional Shock to wear off.

No, she will not commit to the marriage. It sucks. She won't wear her ring. I love her. She says she loves me. She is pretty confused though. We are managing to get by -- we move along with our work. Good ups and downs. I don't know how long I have to wait for her to fall in romantic love again and come back and commit. I can't live like this forever. But life is "decent" and the kids are important. So I can manage longer than 6 months. I am working on not being a doormat. Taking her monstrification and blaming of me for every depressed emotion. Its taken quite some time to get emotionally stable enough to use my head.

Here is the sitch: She had an EA with a guitar player in a band all summer of 2009. She totally left the marriage, decided she wanted a divorce and went out with toxic best friend and got attracted to this man. All secretive and hidden from me. He found out she was married and never called her or emailed her. She kept going to the bar with her girlfriends and spending time with him. There were a couple of kisses. The irony is he rejected her. She kept on emailing him and he never answered. This was hidden for over a year.

In my opinion now I see it as part: depression, part fantasy, part "hate my husband and marriage", part mid life crisis of turning 40. But she REALLY focused in on and developed stories about the "bad husband is the reason I did this." And thus all the fog. Its difficult for WW to examine all the other reasons that are not the monstrified husband.

That being said, boy do I ever own up to my crap! I am working on behing such a better man. She was really unhappy and I was a big doof. I learned a lot and I have plenty left to do to make up for my bad neglectful husband behavior. I have remorse and am devoted to being a better man.

Her depression has a hold. And she likes quick fixes. Some laughs, sometimes alcohol, a new puppy, the little adrenaline and dopamine of a new crush on a guy, the "fantasy" that she can escape the realities of life including inevitable difficulties, differences with your life partner... and just when plain old life gets hard and lets you down.

So she holds out for the fantasy that another man would make life better than this one. All my opinion.

She is trying to come back to the M and love. Its hard and eill take time.

That's my humble assessment after months of work.

We are working. We are not in Recovery. She can't commit to the marriage. I don't know if she has to lose it all to figure out if separating is better than loving what we have -- which is so wonderful and better than most all the other marriages I know. I fell madly in love with her all over again last fall when I suddenly woke up and started changing myself. But she has been so closed off to me. And the secret of the affair up until Feb. just made all my work drain through a LB sieve!

She is wearing her ring

So glad to hear that, stretch!

Did she say why?

Way Cool!

Happy Mother's Day, Stretch!

Big date night Fri night. I took her out. Arranged the sitter. She picked the restaurant. Just got in the car to go... all dressed up and she was wearing it. I held her hand . Made no conversation about it.

Restaurant was amazing. Better open conversation than in the past . she was excited talking about her projects when I asked.

We saw Jersey Boys. Great show. Great date show fellas. Rode in a pedicab after. She loved that.

Still wearing it today.

I dont know how to ask or what to say. IMO she is 'trying". Possibly not sure 100pct herself but willing to keep trying by taking the next step. I remain careful to protect myself. Nervous to ask (I know NG, the 'ugly')

Hey NW. What about you? Our sitch is eerily similar. You are a couple weeks ahead of me so what's up?

So DON'T ask.

DO something for her that (silently) acknowledges her action.

• Buy her a single rose. Leave it where she can find it.
  
• Get up early tomorrow (Mother's Day, right?). Make her favorite breakfast.
• Better yet, bring her that breakfast in bed WITH that single rose.

Let HER raise the issue if she feels so moved.

Enjoy the day, dude.

Glad y'all had a good time. I'm with NG-- don't bring up the ring but, hopefully, she'll broach the subject before too long. I'd let it rest for a little while. She's probably more "in" than "out" but I guess you kind of thought that as well.

We're doing fairly well over here. Actually had a talk about birth control so, umm, I guess that's a good thing. So far, no contact with OM and am starting to relax a little more. I think that makes both of us.

Stretch - Congratulations! I thought that it was the moms that were supposed to get the presents on Mother's Day! ;-)

She is cracking and fog is going away . I think.

MC today she says, " I had this wall of denial about shame. My PC has been asking me for a long time if I felt guilt or shame and I had a big wall of defensiveness, justification. I thought I had no guilt or remorse"

And we talked about stuff that was deep in her past. I thought she was never going to bring it up and get real. The blaming of H about everything was not there today.

She is scared to share with me and be open . I am trying . But at least I am not the monster. And she isn't fighting the real therapy work with fogbabble.

Stretch - that's good news! Let's hope it continues to clear and she continues to be open and honest with the therapist.

Good to hear, stretch. Sounds like a tiny crack there if she's even saying that there may be some remorse.

Your turn (once again) to shine, you know, and be a good listener.

That's the hard thing. We talked today about how she just wants me to listen. And what MC notices is that whatever I say or respond, she just goes away and shuts down.

Conversation is so hard when she just sooo doesn't believe in me. Her words: She built so many stories about how I couldn't be trusted, didn't want to listen, wouldn't be there.... intentionally tried to hurt or harm her feelings.... ..."Monstrification revisionism"

My wife did/does that, too, which makes it worse and makes me want to talk more--to fix it, you know. When it happens now, we try to bring levity to it by laughing and calling out our behavior and how we're going on that cycle again. By pointing out what we're doing, we tend to switch gears and have more productive talks. Maybe it'd work for you, I don't know.

Your MC would do well to talk you guys through such conversations. Maybe you and your wife could talk about how to approach that with the MC if you haven't already done so. It'd be a practical conversation and, surprise surprise, you'd be sharing ideas with each other.

Great thoughts.

There is a post on this forum about sexual abuse. That finally came up in my wife's work. I wrote about her past abuse encounters a long time ago... maybe on this thread or on another.

My wife finally addressed "Shame". She addressed stuff from her past with her PC last week and brought it up in MC yesterday. Wow! I knew about these things but we hadn't talked about them in almost 15 years I bet.

I wondered if she had gone there with her PC in nearly two years with him. I guess that last week was the first time she had. Her PC told her, "I am glad you told me so I can help you." At first my wife said he said, "I can't help you if you don't tell me these things." But I don't think he said that. She rephrased what he actually said. I think she heard that or felt that -- as if he was perturbed at her for holding out for two years. I don't believe that therapist actually behaved that way. But its interesting what her interpretation was... what she remembers hearing can be so different from the actual words. It makes a lot of sense.

My feelings are that its good she is diving into some hard work with her PC. It does take the spotlight off nearly two years deflection of work focused on the "bad marriage" and her A. Finally getting into some deeper tough stuff. I am proud of her for opening that up. I was wondering if/when she would. I've been thinking about it for at least nine months, wondering how much it was still a part of her and influencing her. Evidently it still is.

Some things happened when she was 5 and when she was 18. I knew about these just a little bit. As an emotionally immature man in his early twenties, I don't even remember how supportive or clueless I was trying to listen to her tell me.

So back to the top and NW's response ... I am trying to learn how to listen and not fix. She needs to just be present with how she feels and let me know. When I say something, anything, it just seems to shut her down.

So what's the confluence of "Shame" here? She felt unjustly shamed for things that happened to her when she was 5 and 18? That weren't her fault and she had no reason to feel shamed or unloved. But now, she put up a wall of denial and defenses and felt no "shame" for things she did with the A and to her M family quite recently. Things she did have control over, that she knew were wrong and she could not admit shame?

Oh I so dearly want to help her. I believe I just have to help her believe there is safety here, in my arms.

I am cautious about affection for the past few days (even with the ring going on her finger Friday) but especially with this honesty about past abuse. Its a decent thing to give her body boundaries. That being said, she really wanted to come over and have a big safe snuggle before falling asleep. That made me feel important. Very important.

Your MC can walk you guys through that. Talk about bringing it up with the MC beforehand amongst yourselves, but that sounds like a key issue that, once you overcome, will open the gates.


Sounds good, stretch. Tread lightly, perhaps?

Yup. Let her take her time to unravel the fog and nonsense about the past couple years. Also, start thinking about incredibly important life history. This opening up about sexual abuse at 5yr and 18yr is real stuff. Important work. I know she will make it through! I hope I understand my role. I am willing to read and study whatever I can. I just blew past it when we talked in our twenties.

What about that "shame" angle? This stuff came out because she was thinking about feeling "shame" for her actions the past two years.

Is she deflecting that? Onto some very real and important stuff to be sure. I mean, this is not small potatoes. This life history matters to both of us and I want to help her process once and for all and heal. But what about dealing with the "shame" of the actions of the A?