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If anyone remembers reading our stories, here is an update from BV and CGIR:

Around the second week of January, CGIR's out-of-state assignment ended and he has been living home since this time. He is working a fairly decent number of hours from home and has a possibility of getting an assignment that would have a long commute (1+ hour one way), but would enable him to live at home.

CGIR has been VERY considerate of me since he's been home. He helped me with a large project for my work, which involved him staying up late into the night (for him) and then getting up early the next morning to continue to help me. When a second project was due almost immediately after the first, he came to my workplace to clean things for me while I worked on the second project. He does work for me for my second job without complaining. We recently redecorated three rooms in our house, and CGIR handled everything - from getting quotes and a good price from vendors to moving three rooms of furniture twice (out of the rooms and then back in) and cleaning up construction dust on his hands and knees. He's also been listening to me when I talk - for example, I mentioned in passing that I was almost out of red pepper and would have to get more. The following week, I opened the kitchen cabinet and found a new container of red pepper. (This may not seem like much, but previously, CGIR would not purchase things I wrote on the list that he took to the store). And today, I asked him to bring in his GPS from his car so I could register it, AND HE DID.

Unfortunately, though, I don't really feel any better about things. As the title of my post says, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. In the past, CGIR would "do good" to hide the fact that he'd done something he knew he shouldn't have been doing and to throw me off guard. (It usually had the opposite effect, though, as it still does). I constantly think, "What's he doing now that he feels he needs to balance the scales?" And I don't really feel better now that he's home - all the opportunities he had while living out-of-state still exist, and are just as accessible. In fact, in many ways I did better personally when he was away - it's a lot of pressure to be "on" all the time when he's home - hair, make-up, clothes, house picked up, attention, conversation, etc. When he was away M-F, I was able to come home, take a nap if I felt like it, leave my dishes on the table until I was ready to put them away, etc. Now I feel I constantly have to be "on guard" to prevent CGIR from thinking that I'm lazy (nap), ugly (hair, make-up), slovenly (dishes), stupid and/or sullen (conversation) - all things he thought about me while he was having his affairs. It's exhausting.

No questions, really - just an update and a sigh of disappointment. I thought things would be better now. It seems as if the only way the present will get better is if the past gets better (which it obviously won't).

Thanks for listening.

BV


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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Quote:
In the past, CGIR would "do good" to hide the fact that he'd done something he knew he shouldn't have been doing and to throw me off guard. (It usually had the opposite effect, though, as it still does). I constantly think, "What's he doing now that he feels he needs to balance the scales?"

And I don't really feel better now that he's home - all the opportunities he had while living out-of-state still exist, and are just as accessible. In fact, in many ways I did better personally when he was away - it's a lot of pressure to be "on" all the time when he's home - hair, make-up, clothes, house picked up, attention, conversation, etc. When he was away M-F, I was able to come home, take a nap if I felt like it, leave my dishes on the table until I was ready to put them away, etc. Now I feel I constantly have to be "on guard" to prevent CGIR from thinking that I'm lazy (nap), ugly (hair, make-up), slovenly (dishes), stupid and/or sullen (conversation) - all things he thought about me while he was having his affairs. It's exhausting.


brokenvase, I don't remember if I've posted to you about this before, but the above really jumped out at me.

Do you know about Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)?

It's really just a fancy term for Attention Addict. NPDs use other human beings as their drug of choice. They live for the validation, strokes, admiration, "respect" and most of all ATTENTION ATTENTION ATTENTION they can get from others.

They have abandoned all inward sources of validation in order to leave the most possible room to get attention from others. Therefore, they have no sense of self-worth or self-validation. They are empty vessels who look at other people the way an alcoholic looks at a bottle of Jack Daniels.

Not all adulterers are NPD, but virtually all NPDs are adulterers. They have no boundaries about getting attention and strokes from others (they can't, obviously - gotta be open to getting their drug at all times, just like any other kind of addict), so they are wide open to any and all attention all of the time.

I would urge you to Google "narcissistic spouse" and see what you think.

Dr. Drew has a book on Aquired Narcissism - you can read parts of it on Amazon - and below is a link to an MB thread on NPD.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2336925&page=1

Good luck. If he is NPD then you are dealing with an addiction and as we all know, MB principles don't work when addictions are present.

My XWH fits every description of an NPD/sex addict. And he didn't start out that way, but once in the big-time corporate environment his need for attention, strokes, and admiration (especially from the trashy girls infesting the place) got completely out of control. He was just like a crackhead going to work in the crackhouse every day. It's an addiction like any other, really no different from booze or heroin except that the Attention Addict is usually way high functioning. But my XWH's NPD behaviour destroyed our family just the same as countless other junkies have destroyed theirs.

Please look into this and see what you think. If he's still there and you can be clear on what you are dealing with, there may still be hope. At the very least, his behaviour will no longer be such a bizarre mystery.


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BV,


Oh, the six-month mark. The point of torture where you have been through the initial fire, and now you have calmed enough to look back a bit and see where you've been, and look forward enough to realize

this is a mountain I have to climb!!!


And you are seeing the work this will take. The sense of it being too hard, will I get through it, and HOW will I get through it, stands before you in stark reality.

On top of it all is the cherry of anger (if it isn't there yet, it will hit you in the next month or two, kind of predictable pattern here).

BV, it is a mountain to climb. But the good news is that you do not climb it all in one day. And also, you have the tools to do the climbing right before you. You have already made changes in yourself, and living those changes makes them easier and easier. You talk of how hard it is to make your appearance nice for him - girl, make it nice for you! Take pride in yourself, because it reflects a sense of your inner beauty - let your best self shine on the outside, as much as on the inside. You are a researcher, and studies show that when you are nicely dressed and presenting a good-looking self (in your OWN opinion), you feel better about yourself, have higher self-confidence, and also have more positive beliefs about what others are thinking about you.

Taking a nap isn't lazy.......negotiate this and use POJA to talk about this with CGIR. Half the people on earth come home from work and want a little power nap. Maybe instead of sleeping for hours, take a true POWER nap and limit it to 30 minutes, which actually is more refreshing.....


I see in your post a lot of second-guessing of his motivations. That's fairly common after what you've been through. You do not trust him. No reason to trust him, really. That sense of believing what he says to you only comes over lots of time, and lots of proof of his change of behavior. I would say that if you stay out of the box toward him, your return from him will be out of the box, too.

You can control only what you do - remember to come from a point where you see him as a person, accept his attempts to love you, and stay open to him. At some point, you will begin to see things return to a sense of "more safe" with him. It takes time, time, time.


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
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Most recent D-day Fall 2005
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Dear Mulan:

Thanks for posting. I actually am familiar with NPD and I must say that according to the DSM-IV-TR criteria, CGIR is 0 for 9. None of them describe him at all.

In the past, CGIR would do things for me that I wanted or liked "in the eleventh hour" to, I think, in his mind "make up for" something he knew he should not have done. One night, I remember, I was out taking a class and while I was gone, he had looked up women's MySpace accounts, something we had a clear agreement about. After he did this, he spent the rest of the evening until I came home doing the errands and extras I had wanted done but he neglected up until that point. When I got home, he very blatantly pointed out everything he had done, and wasn't I happy and excited about it? But as I said, these actions made me suspicious and I was almost always right. I should say at this time that CGIR did do things for me that I liked that without ulterior motivation, but these were things that he liked, too, so it was no effort for him to do them (e.g., taking a trip we both wanted to go on, going to a show or a ball game, etc.).

Currently, CGIR does TONS AND TONS of things for me that only I want, need or like without complaining. He will make me a cup of tea when I could very well get up and make it myself. He will the clerical work I need done for my jobs. He will buy me clothing that's too expensive because I like it. He will clean the whole house and not ask for my help. He will get up and feed our pets so I can sleep. And so on and so on. His actions make a lot of sense for someone who realizes he made a mistake and wants to atone. What I'm having a hard time with is disassociating these actions with his former motivations and considering that these actions might now be genuine.

So, his behavior is not bizarre at all - both times, it was/is quite rational. Again, I'm just having a very hard time believing the topography of his behavior now has a different function.

Dear Schoolbus:

Thank you also for taking the time to post. I *wish* I had anger - I think it would be easier to resolve. Currently, I'm stuck in the mire of resentment....

There's actually nothing to negotiate with CGIR. He tells me NOT to "fix up" when I come home from work or on the weekends if we're not going out. He says he LIKES me to wear sweats. He tells me TO take a nap. My problem is the discrepancy - BEFORE, I was frumpy and lazy when I did these things. NOW, I'm cute and rested. I was a "6," now I'm a "10." WHICH ONE IS IT? I don't actually care what the answer is, I just want to know - WHICH ONE? What is his true, objective thought? Which line of thinking will be durable, despite temporary changes in circumstance? WHICH ONE can I rely on being TRUE?

I was trying to explain this to my therapist once and told her it's like Plato's Allegory of the Cave, but with a twist - after it was revealed that all you had know before was an illusion, why on earth would you think that what you were seeing now is true?

Trust? Nope. None. And I can't picture how it will come back.

Again, no questions, just confusion. It doesn't make sense. Well, actually it DOES make sense but I DO NOT LIKE the manner in which it makes sense. If that makes any sense....

Just sitting for tonight in the box. Under the packing peanuts. With duct tape.

BV


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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brokenvase, I hope you are right about the NPD. Just remember that even though they may do a lot of nice things for you, there's always a price - like a Christmas gift that still has the price tag stuck on it so you know exactly how much it cost them.

I was also looking at your sig, and it looks like he's been carrying on outside your marriage for a very long time.

And you are right not to trust him now, and not *just* because of his past adultery. Is he remorseful? Does he really seem to regret his actions? Or is he just switching to bribery to get you to look the other way, since bullying didn't work? Maybe that's why your gut is screaming at you that this is just further manipulation, not real remorse.

Just be very careful. I don't know what the DSM-IV-TR criteria are for NPD, but I did hear that they are dropping NPD from their list and don't really believe in it.

I don't think it's a "personality disorder" either. I think it's just another addiction and so does Dr. Drew. Something about your posts just made the alarm bells go off. Hope I am wrong.


Me, BW
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BV,

FWIW, he has read the book I recommended. Doing the "right" thing is one of the components of personal changed, and embedded in that process is doing the thing that you know you should do - for someone else - that prevents you from putting yourself in the box toward them.

What this might reveal about him is that all along he has had these feelings that he should make that cup of tea for you (or do that paperwork, or make that purchase because you need that new blouse, etc.)

and has passed that feeling over

and then resented YOU for it somehow, making YOU blameworthy somehow, and then used that blame and resentment as his own justification for having his affairs.


Now, he sees these feelings of desire to do something for you as what they truly are - right and loving feelings toward someone he loves. And that these are feelings that he can and should act upon, because when he DOES act upon them, they increase his feelings of love toward you

and in return, he can effect change in his relationships in the world.



He hopes that in the long run he will effect change in his marriage, perhaps change in the feelings you have toward him.


The problem is that it is SO very hard to live outside of the box, isn't it? And to stay outside of the box toward someone who has wronged you so many times over so long.


After you read the self-deception book a couple of times, try the sequel: The Anatomy of Peace.


More in-depth, more descriptions of our boxes.


I found my specific box type there........ouch. Yet, more peace in that book for myself.


Every day is one more tiny step, BV. Not the whole mountain.


Just one step.


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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A recap and an update, for anyone that remembers our threads....

The recap: At the end of September (2011), CGIR finally told me the whole truth about his affairs over the years. I was blindsided by an affair I never knew about and a ONS with a prostitute. Two weeks from that day, we were supposed to go to a family wedding. Not surprisingly, I didn't want to go. CGIR stepped up to the plate, told his family why I wasn't attending and suffered through the wedding and reception by himself. At the time, I was very surprised that he told his mother, aunt and brothers the true reason I was not there; previously, he would have told them we didn't go because I was sick, and let our being no-shows be (albeit inadvertently) my fault. It gave me a little hope that he understood, in a small way, the importance and value of honesty.

Well, we were invited to a second wedding to be held at the end of this month. (Another daughter of the same aunt, incidentally). I don't want to go, as I have no inclination to paste on a happy smile, make chit-chat with the other guests and listen to them reminisce about their wonderful weddings, while thinking the whole time that my own wedding, which I used to love, was no more than an egregiously expensive party. And the thing I was really dreading was crying, feeling sick and hiding out in the ladies' room during the reception while CGIR told everyone that I was "sick," going right back to the cover-ups and easy lies.

CGIR and I had avoided making a decision about attending, and as it turned out, the weekend we had to reply was the weekend of the royal wedding. (Needless to say, it was NOT a good weekend for me). We decided not to go, although I had the feeling that CGIR was just appeasing me, and was not enthusiastic about the decision.

Which brings us to today. CGIR spent some time helping his mother, who asked if we were going to the wedding. She was surprised that we weren't, especially since we are "doing well" and everything between us happened "over six months ago." (More than enough time to have gotten over it, doncha think?)

CGIR then explained to his mother how I felt, why it was appropriate and rationale for me to feel this way AND ADMITTED TO TO ALL HIS AFFAIRS, 25 YEARS OF LYING TO ME ABOUT THEM AND BEING SELFISH BY ONLY THINKING ABOUT HIMSELF. When he spoke to his mother in October, he only told her about his most recent affair. His first affair happened 23 years ago. He didn't have to tell her about it (he could have defended me based on the information she already had) - HE DID IT ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE AND I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE THAT HE WAS GOING TO DO IT. I didn't tell him to, I didn't ask him to, he just thought she should know the depth of what we're going through. He also said he was annoyed that his family "doesn't get it" and would be content to just sweep it under the carpet and pretend as if it didn't happen.

This new development has me shocked and stunned. Could this really mean that CGIR has actually changed, for real, and maybe for good? Never in a million years would I have even imagined he would do something like this. Previously, lying was a way of life for CGIR - he lied to live and lived to lie.

I truly don't know what to think. I never thought CGIR could do anything that I was not cynical about....but even I am finding a hard time being cynical about this. I feel like I just got hit by an unknown force and had all the wind knocked out of me - that I was standing just a moment ago and now I'm knocked flat.

BV (or tonight, FB - feeling breathless)


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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Wow, Congratulations. I have read your story and can see that this is a huge thing. Take it for what it is and enjoy it. If nothing else, he is empathizing and trying. That is great!

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Originally Posted By: brokenvase


he just thought she should know the depth of what we're going through. He also said he was annoyed that his family "doesn't get it" and would be content to just sweep it under the carpet and pretend as if it didn't happen.



Wow.
Interesting.
Stunning.



Quote:


This new development has me shocked and stunned.



Witnessing someone's moral epiphany is amazing.

Quote:
Could this really mean that CGIR has actually changed, for real, and maybe for good?


Yeah. Possibly.


Quote:
Never in a million years would I have even imagined he would do something like this. Previously, lying was a way of life for CGIR - he lied to live and lived to lie.


My H used to lie all the time.
Today he is an honest man.

Quote:
I truly don't know what to think. I never thought CGIR could do anything that I was not cynical about....but even I am finding a hard time being cynical about this. I feel like I just got hit by an unknown force and had all the wind knocked out of me - that I was standing just a moment ago and now I'm knocked flat.


My H was transformed after his A.
Mostly he was transformed by insights he acquired going to AA and working the 12 steps with his sponsor(s).

Stay tuned ....

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Dear Sunnydaze and Pepperband:

Thanks for taking the time to reply. CGIR spent some time with his mother and family on Sunday and he continued to speak openly about our situation with his mother, brother and uncle. He even named OW#1, who his brother knew.

When his family members asked, "But things are going well, right?" he was quick to point out that we still have a LONG way to go and that our current circumstance is due to his selfishness and lying, not my inability to forgive a "mistake." (His mother told him, "Well, we all make mistakes" and his brother told him that "women hold onto things much longer than men").

He could have easily whitewashed everything by keeping affair #1 a secret and letting everyone believe that we are "fine." He also could have blamed me for "holding a grudge."

But he didn't.

Still afraid to trust this, though.

BV


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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My H found honesty and openness to be very liberating and hugely valuable to his self-worth. He is a transformed man.

AM


BW - 65
WH - 60
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
DD - 44, DS - 30, DS - 23
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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A little recap:

When I first started posting last year, CGIR had had two workplace affairs. His second affair was an office EA that became a PA on an overseas trip and continued/escalated when they came back home. The affair ended when I found out and confronted CGIR, although he continued to work with the OW for the next two years. This situation ended when CGIR lost his job; while the affair wasn't the direct cause, it was certainly the first domino tipped in the chain of events. Due to a variety of factors, including the economy, CGIR has not had stable employment since 2008 and in 2010 had to take a job out-of-state for almost a year, which lead to a D-day and near divorce.

Well, CGIR just obtained (hopefully) about 6 months' of work at a location that is ~2 miles from our home. For the next month, until I return to work, we could theoretically even have lunch together.

Good news, right? Well, I really don't feel any better than when he worked out of state. First, my thinking is, if he wanted to continue/start another affair and hide it from me, he could do it from 2 miles away as easily as he could from two states away. Both of CGIR's previous affairs were solely workplace affairs. In the case of his second affair, he did not take OW out in evening; he came home on time from work every night; with a single exception he did not see her on the weekend, and other than listening to the messages she would leave him on his work voice mail (and it was a small number of messages) did not communicate with her on the weekend. So, his affair was well-contained, and if he just kept his communication off the home electronics (which, after all our telephone/computer D-days, he'd be an idiot not to), he could certainly have another one, perhaps this time with me none the wiser. I am no believer in the illusion of transparency - to paraphrase another poster, just look at what gets sneaked into prisons.

Second, CGIR has never had any practice turning away from female attention. The only person he's ever (legitimately) dated was me. He's confident he recognizes his prior lack of boundaries and won't fall into the same patterns and traps, but how can he be so confident when he's never done it? Is he really going to tell a co-worker who puts her tray down at his table in the cafeteria and starts to discuss a work issue that he won't eat with her? Or tell another co-worker whose car has broken down that he won't give her a ride? Is he ready to appear rude and maybe hurt an "innocent" person's feelings to protect our marriage? This will involve a huge change in behavior for him, that he's never practiced before. (I should say that when CGIR worked out of state, these things were not an issue for a variety of very unique reasons, one being that CGIR was working for an employing agency that his co-workers despised, so I'm pretty confident that when he said no one was talking to him, no one was talking to him).

Any way, I guess this is my long-winded way of saying that lack of trust sucks, big time.

Every day when he comes home from work, I have to consider that maybe something happened. Maybe it didn't, but I'll never know. Oh wait, I could ask CGIR. He'll be open and honest, because, this time's different. (Please read with despair, not sarcasm).

No questions; just anxious and sad.

BV


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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Hi brokenvase,

thanks for the update. Why don't you put a VAR into his car?

Have you addressed his weakness for female attention in the written list of EP's and boundaries of yours? These possible plunders should be brainstormed. EPs should include the rule of never going to lunch alone, so he could not be exposed to this female attention. Could it be possible for him to have lunch with at least 4 male colleagues, so that his table will be full and no female can join them? Or can you have your lunches together since he is much closer to you now?


Me, FWW: 43
Mr_Recon6mo, FWH: 44
DD20 and DS23
3 cats
Married 23 years, together 24
Divorcing

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DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - 1989 EA was actually PA and lasted one year.


I don't remember why or when you were a WW.

Why are you a WW/BW and your husband is just a WH, where is his BH label?

What I do know is that a lot of manure has been going on for years. And with your WH not home due to work how can things heal? Chances are they will not. So be happy he closer.

Why don't you both relocate?


The most important thing is your last Dday is still not 1 year away. Everytime there is a new Dday recover period clock gets set back to zero even though you have been dealing with this since 1989.

Both you and your H need to make sure there are no more ddays and stop living apart. There will be no recovery the way you are going.

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Dear Mrs_Recon6mo:

Thanks for the reply.

Originally Posted By: Mrs_Recon6mo
Why don't you put a VAR into his car?


I have thought about this, actually. I KNOW, though, that I will always be wondering "what I'm missing." I'm trying to stop the hyper-vigilance. I have told CGIR that if I suspect an affair in the future, I will hire a private investigator. I will NOT waste my time working as a full-time PI like I did last time.

Originally Posted By: Mrs_Recon6mo
Have you addressed his weakness for female attention in the written list of EP's and boundaries of yours? These possible plunders should be brainstormed.


We have done this, but my concern is that not only has CGIR never had any opportunity to implement EPs, he has not even had the opportunity to practice turning down female attention, not even before marriage. (He also thinks it's not going to happen (i.e., receiving female attention), which, as we know is dangerous because he will be unprepared when it does, inevitably, happen.)

CGIR has said that his first affair happened because the attention paid to him by OW was new and he "didn't know how to handle it." After OW#1, he had a friendship with a potential OW that made me jealous, but since she did not reciprocate his interest, it stayed at the "just friends" level, on her part, anyway. (CGIR never revealed to her that he was interested; I think he was waiting for her to "go first.") CGIR was very unhappy with me at the time OW#2 entered the picture, so he actively pursued what he wanted from her. In between these two OW, there was just not another "perfect storm" of reciprocal attraction, initiation on the part of the OW and selfishness on CGIR's part.

So, to date, every time CGIR's been attracted to someone who's also shown him interest, he's "gone for it."

Thinking you will do something and actually doing it when the time comes are two completely different things, especially when you are caught off guard.

Originally Posted By: Mrs_Recon6mo
Could it be possible for him to have lunch with at least 4 male colleagues, so that his table will be full and no female can join them? Or can you have your lunches together since he is much closer to you now?


These are good suggestions, but right now all discussions are hypothetical, as CGIR does not start until tomorrow. At this point, he does not know anyone and has no idea what the circumstances will be. Doesn't stop me from having them, though.

Thanks for listening -

BV


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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Dear TheRoad:

Thanks for taking time to reply.

Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Me - BW/WW - 45
Him - CGIR - WH 45






DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - 1989 EA was actually PA and lasted one year.


I don't remember why or when you were a WW.


I had a ONS involving oral sex with a person I worked with about 18 years ago.

Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Why are you a WW/BW and your husband is just a WH, where is his BH label?


I never noticed this before. It's more of a typo than a statement. I will update my signature after I post this.

Originally Posted By: TheRoad
What I do know is that a lot of manure has been going on for years.


As they say on Storage Wars, "YYYUUUUPPPPP!!!!"

Originally Posted By: TheRoad
And with your WH not home due to work how can things heal? Chances are they will not. So be happy he closer.


Trying!

Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Why don't you both relocate?


At this time, there's no need, as we are both working less than 5 miles from home. However, if CGIR becomes unemployed again (likely, after this job), relocating would involve trading my secure (as it can be, in this economy) employment that provides our health insurance and pays our bills, for...a move to somewhere where CGIR might work for a couple of months, then be out again. Then we'd both be unemployed (me with no unemployment as I'd have quit my job) in an unfamiliar area, where neither of us wanted to be in the first place. Also, my mother lives with us and is likely losing her job in the fall, so we'd have to figure out a situation for her. (She would not be able to live on her own).


Originally Posted By: TheRoad
The most important thing is your last Dday is still not 1 year away. Everytime there is a new Dday recover period clock gets set back to zero even though you have been dealing with this since 1989.


I keep trying to remember this. It seems like it's been going on forever (oh wait, it HAS been going on forever...)

Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Both you and your H need to make sure there are no more ddays and stop living apart. There will be no recovery the way you are going.


YYYUUUUPPPPP!!!!

Hoping things can be different this time, but often feeling bleak.

Thanks for listening -

BV


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,093
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bv,

When we first "met" we talked about control. You only control yourself in the marriage. CGIR controls only himself.


It isn't that you trust or do not trust. It is a matter of whether or not HE is able to control himself - and that comes down to whether or not his changes are real.

You can base your daily views of whether his changes are real or not on what he does - and what you see.

Get GPS for his cellphone, so you will know exactly where he is and can verify his location, or get a GPS for his car.

Ask him to call frequently. Or, call him regularly. Check his text history with the cellphone carrier.

There is no crime in checking up on him. There is nothing wrong with asking him to check in with you.

If his changes are real, he will do this willingly, and he will understand exactly why you are afraid and distrustful.



It takes time for a BS to move through all of this. For a serial cheater, it takes the BS a lot longer. CGIR knows this.

The fact that he told his family the details of his cheating is something that surprised me. It tells me that he wants, and needs, others to know that not only was he a terrible husband, but that he also wants them to know that YOU are being a terrific wife to work through this with him and to give him another chance.

It also tells us that he wants people to WATCH him. It is asking others to keep their eye on him - a public admission of a promise to change means that he plans to make that change.

It's kind of like making a public announcement that you will lose 100 pounds, and then eating every day in public. Everyone is watching, and keeping you in check.


I have great hopes for the two of you. I really hope you can work this out, and that your jobs all work out, too. This economy has hit too many people too hard.

SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Dear Schoolbus:

Originally Posted By: schoolbus


You only control yourself in the marriage. CGIR controls only himself.


Unfortunately. Things would go MUCH more smoothly if I controlled all.... wink

I don't think it's so much that I want to control CGIR's actions (well, I obviously do, but I know it's an impossibility - believe me, control is my first choice and if it were available, I would already be doing it!) wink I think I want to know the end result NOW, and act accordingly. If he's going to deceive me again tomorrow, I want out today. If he's going to deceive me again after let's say 20 great years together, I STILL want out today. I would give up the 20 great years to avoid another D-Day IN A HEARTBEAT. I really, really, really, REALLY can't do it again.

(Thank goodness I've selected a more realistic and achievable option than control!)

Originally Posted By: schoolbus
You can base your daily views of whether his changes are real or not on what he does - and what you see.


What I worry about, though, is the percent, whether it's 25% or 1% or .0001%, that I can't possibly see or know. I fear being deceived, by commission or omission, "living a lie" and having the proverbial rug ripped out from under me just when I start to relax. I fear actually succeeding in changing my thoughts only to be wrong, yet again. I have to be on guard, ready and steeled for that next blow.

Originally Posted By: schoolbus
Get GPS for his cellphone, so you will know exactly where he is and can verify his location, or get a GPS for his car.

Ask him to call frequently. Or, call him regularly. Check his text history with the cellphone carrier.

There is no crime in checking up on him. There is nothing wrong with asking him to check in with you.


I wish these things could provide me with some assurance or comfort. Right now, they seem like water wings against a tsunami. I WISH I only worried about his physical actions. I worry about his THOUGHTS.

Originally Posted By: schoolbus
If his changes are real, he will do this willingly, and he will understand exactly why you are afraid and distrustful.


He does, both the willing part and understanding part. But, my currently line of thinking (not saying it's a productive one, just saying it's my current one) says: they're just water wings against the tsunami.

Originally Posted By: schoolbus
It takes time for a BS to move through all of this. For a serial cheater, it takes the BS a lot longer.


I know. It just seems SO long. Even I'm getting tired of it. Just seems too risky to keep on going, though. It sucks where I am, but I'm worried (sense a theme here?) that it will suck worse further on. If I stay here, can I avoid the worse thing? (I know the answer is "no," by the way. However, it still seems better to stay right here).

Originally Posted By: schoolbus
The fact that he told his family the details of his cheating is something that surprised me. It tells me that he wants, and needs, others to know that not only was he a terrible husband, but that he also wants them to know that YOU are being a terrific wife to work through this with him and to give him another chance.

It also tells us that he wants people to WATCH him. It is asking others to keep their eye on him - a public admission of a promise to change means that he plans to make that change.


It surprised me, too, especially when he went beyond the initial admission of an affair. Unfortunately, his family will accept anything he does, no matter how abominable. An OW would be in my Thanksgiving chair like *that*. I think (hope) it was the terrific wife reason.

I guess my trigger is I'm coming up on the anniversary of D-Day #5. This was a particularly hard D-Day because before he went to work out of state, I told him that it was his perfect opportunity for redemption. While he was away, he (seemed) to be saying and doing all the right things. When he came home on weekends, we had a great time. When I went to visit him this time last year, we had a great time. But almost the very minute I left, he was on the computer looking at porn and the OW's picture. And what kills is that, as with many of our D-Days, I found out by accident, due to Facebook's egregious publicizing of information.

Also, CGIR is coming up on his one year anniversary of truthful living. In the history of our relationship, he has never gone this long without doing something and lying to me about it. Previously, 3-6 months is as long as he could go. I've been hopeful before, and I'm scared to hope again. I keep thinking, it can't be a year - what's out there that I missed, what's right now boomeranging back at me?


Originally Posted By: schoolbus
I have great hopes for the two of you.

Thank you. That makes you and CGIR. Maybe I can join you one day? wink

Seriously, though, THANK YOU, because you have been the ONLY one to ever get through to CGIR. If it weren't for you - not MB, but YOU, in particular - there wouldn't be a two of us. There would only be me, posting on the Divorced/Divorcing forum.

Thanks, as always, for posting and listening.

BV


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,093
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bv,


Thanks for your kinds words. I hold out the great hope that all waywards are redeemable, I suppose because I once was so lost myself. I yanked my own self out of such a low place in the world, that I truly believe if I can do it, anyone can. I am not special.


I believe that there is a coupon good for redemption for all people. And that coupon also is renewable, over and over. There is at least one being in the world with the patience to wait until I get it right. The least I can do is try to have some of that patience, too.



You talk about wanting to know what will happen in the future. I suppose we all do, bv. Everyone wants a guarantee. I once wrote a letter to my daughter about this very issue. She was wanting to drop out of school, exactly ONE CLASS SHORT OF GRADUATION. no-no-no-no I said.

She told me that she was tired, that there was no guarantee of a job with a degree in music education, that teachers were getting laid off everywhere, and that districts weren't hiring music teachers anyway. Music programs were being cut. She didn't see a future in teaching, and couldn't see anything coming out of a degree, and was frustrated with the whole idea of education in general - she did not want to teach. Changing majors meant more years of school. Then there was still not a guarantee of anything. Her friends with degrees were working in restaurants or bars, at Wal-Mart.....and besides, she wanted to "live for the moment", as there was really no guarantee of ANYTHING.

All this, and her boyfriend, well......was CHEATING ON HER.


Wonder why she felt this way?????? hmmmmmmm.


So I wrote to her and told her what I'm about to say to you, in a bit different words, because I can't really recall the exact thing I said then. But, it worked.



Dear sweetie,

You want guarantees about the future. Nobody has them. I get no guarantee that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but I have a doctor's appointment for two weeks from Thursday. I'm fairly certain I will get to then, so I went ahead and made the appointment banking on the sunrise for at least the next two weeks and then some.

I figure that landlords are also on the bandwagon for some sense of guarantee, too. They charged you some rent for the month, and your lease goes for the next six. They are willing to take the risk on you, and I figure they are convinced enough to gamble on at least that long. I suppose we could ask to pay rent on a month-to-month, but if you want we could check on a day-to-day rate; if that seems like too long in the "no guarantee, live for the moment" world, we might look into an hourly rate.

Seriously, sweetie, you get the point. I'm trying my best to love you into the future. As your mom, it's my job to think ahead far enough to help you get over those hurdles years into your life. That's why I enrolled you in kindergarten when you were five. I anticipated that you would need a high school education, even though you might have contracted a strange disease, or died in a car wreck, or some comet might have struck our house. I loved you into the future despite no guarantee that you would have one - and so I did all I could, every day, to give you the foundation you would need for your next step in life.

That's what college is about. I'm loving you into your future. Sure, it is a roll of the dice whether or not you will ever go into teaching. At this point, you are sure you won't. So you find a college and you finish a bachelor's degree, and we love you into the future with a college degree that is the foundation of something - we do not know what your future holds, and we never have. Yet, that degree might serve you somewhere down life's road. If you finish the work now, and never use it, you can say that you learned "this much" and earned "this degree". And you will NEVER say "I walked away when I could have finished, but I could not see 16 weeks into the future". I know that ONE of those decisions you will regret, and the other you will hold up with pride.

It is your decision.


I do know this: I bought a full tank of gas yesterday. I could always just carry a one-gallon can in the car with me, and add what I need as I go along. After all, that car could conk out on me before I got to the end of the driveway, and buying a full tank could be a waste of money.


I'm pretty sure I will make it to the end of the driveway, though. I'm also pretty sure the sun will rise, I will make the doctor's appointment, and that I will love you into the future just as I have every single day since the day you were born.


Let me know what you decide.








She called me when she got the email. She enrolled in another college out of state within a week, earned a degree in music (not teaching) within ONE semester. She wrote me this, upon graduating:

Dear Mom,

This note is a "thank you". Your patience guided me when nothing else would. You taught me to think for myself, and therefore, protect myself...You taught me how to "woman up". Thank you from the bottom of my heart: It's because of you that I am a SUCCESS!




And so she is. With no guarantees.



SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
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Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Brokenvase,

we are dealing with the very same issue from time to time - how can my H know that I'm serious besides what I'm already doing. How does he know that I'm not faking it (this was painful to hear) and how can he be sure that there is not a plot against him, a la I will leave him after our kids graduate or that sorts of things.

We are now 2 yrs into our recovery, doing MB together, and although these low moments occur much less now, they still do. And I'm responsible for those.

Well, he _knows_ that I'm serious about us for the lifetime, but after I asked him what can I do to make him feel _more_ certain about us, he said that by just repeating that I will not leave and reassuring him that I'm here for him and just understanding where these thoughts come from (oh how I understand it now, you have no idea, HOW badly I want to go back and undo things). Maybe you would want the same kind of reassurance from time to time from your H, I don't know. Radical honesty from your part will give your H valuable information to help him give those reassurances you need.

SB, thank you so very much for sharing this letter, I showed it to my H and altogether this made our conversation about the reassurance much easier. Thank you!


Me, FWW: 43
Mr_Recon6mo, FWH: 44
DD20 and DS23
3 cats
Married 23 years, together 24
Divorcing

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