How can she say she doesn't agree with Dr. H's principles if she only half-heartedly skimmed the site? Would she be willing to do at least the Emotional Needs Questionnaire?

I'm going to persist. I have believed in the MB process from the first article I read on this site.

She's just very heavily in the fog right now. Whereas yesterday her emotions (immediately after exposure) seemed to be true remorse and shame, today seems to be a mixture of shame and A LOT of anger. She is very mad at me. Whereas yesterday she wanted to hug and kiss, today she won't even look at me much.

Still, I have hope.

Dr Harley doesn't do counseling anyway. His children, Dr Jennifer Chalmers and Steve Harley do that. If she won't counsel with them, I would IMPLORE you not to go to counseling.

Marriage counselors are destructive to marriages and have no comprehension of the fogged out mindset of a wayward. Because of this, you might end up divorced if your W tells a MC that she is unhappy in the marriage. Marriage counseling has an 84% FAILURE RATE and MCs actually have a higher divorce rate than the general population. They do not have the slightest idea how to save marriages. We have to mop up their messes on this board every day.

I would try to influence her to go to counseling with one of the Harley kids, but that is hardly something you need to negotiate NOW. That can be down the road. What is important now is that you end all contact in her affair and work on affair proofing. You don't need counseling to turn your marriage around anyway.

Keep in mind, though, that a plan of marital recovery IS NOT NEGOTIABLE. So while she might not want to counsel with Dr Harley, participating in a recovery plan THAT WORKS, is not negotiable. Just going to counseling for the sake of going to counseling WILL NOT SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE. And will likely harm it.

Normal and normal. Let her go on anything but accountability for her time and NC for right now. Dont press issues of a recovery plan yet while shes still foggy. Your wasting your breath. Just keep affirming that your boundaries to remain in the M are NC EVER again with OM and a plan that will help your M build romantic love by meeting each others needs that have went unmet.
Really not much work you can successfully do while foggy. Order the books then let her see you reading them and have them lying around for her inspection.
My Wife was also reluctant again on MB. Now shes using the terminology. LOL. Its resistance to change your facing not what counselling approach.
Avoid bringing up the A for now and just be in a stellar plan A. Its not time for the stick yet she has to start eating the carrot first.
But do be firm on accountability and persistent on "having a plan" that will work for both of your benefit.
Mine loved POJA when she finally understood it benefited HER!

I wholeheartedly endorse this. Even just a weekend, if you can.

Don't focus on the A at that time, heck, don't even mention it for the entire trip if you can get away from it. You want the vacation to be about YOU and HER, and reconnecting. Almost as a kind of proof, to her, that the two of you CAN love each other and enjoy each other's company.

Of course, she has to agree to a vacation. Sounds like she is mad right now, and that's ok--you're in Plan A. You knew she would be mad. Keep plan A-ing your heart out. She needs to go through withdrawal, and the fog needs to start lifting before you can do much in the way of actual negotiating.

Whereas yesterday she wanted to hug and kiss, today she won't even look at me much. Try to initiate the non sexual affection as much as you can. Most womens top needs are affection and conversation. Be stellar in meeting both. And NO LOVEbusting (wish I had a nickel for every time I reminded myself of this)

Well, I'm glad to see that I'm starting to think like the advice you're giving. I'm still faltering on implementation.

First, we already did a 2 day get away just a couple days ago...but that was BEFORE exposure. I pampered her and gave her 2 days of UA. She gave me 2 days of sneaking to the bathroom to log into her fake facebook account and talk to him. Again, that was before exposure.

So this afternoon, I tried to not dwell on the topic and give her space. I showed her affection (a nice non-sexual hug here and there, just a caress of the arm here and there). She acted repulsed by it.

I was sitting here in my room reading the forum and she came and plopped down on the bed. Her signal that she wants to talk.

So, the only point I tried to make was one thing: No contact with him. EVER. AGAIN.

She said she already broke contact and that she doesn't know why I don't trust her. She said her last contact was with him yesterday after he sent us the threatening message to expose all their conversations. She said she told him that she doesn't know why he would do that, that she is sorry for putting him through so much trouble, and that they should never contact each other again and he should have a nice life.

This was AFTER she was supposedly to have deactivated that fake facebook profile. So, logically, she reactivated it. I told her she needs to delete that fake account, not deactivate it. She said she doesn't know how. I told her I'd show her.

She then goes on to tell me to do it myself since I must know her password since I know everything that she is doing. She refuses to see that she is exhibiting textbook behavior of everything you guys have told me would happen and that she is now very predictable.

I admitted that, yes, I was snooping but that she had no right to make demands that I stop. I told her that her actions have been dishonest and have not inspired confidence in her fidelity.

She denied having any kind of addiction to that relationship.

She expressed utter contempt to the plan of action that Melody suggested I propose to her (No contact letter, delete facebook, open discussion of affair, etc).

She said she doesn't see the point and that I should just take her word that it is over. She then asked "Where are you getting all this crap anyway? From that stupid website?" She mocked my efforts at fighting for our marriage and expressed nothing but scorn for MB.

She again expressed her belief that I could and should never forgive her or trust her again. I expressed hope that we could rebuild that trust and that I could forgive her if she took the steps to earn it.

I suggested that in regards to her affair, there was no room to bargain. That I wanted her to follow the process that I pitched.

She said she didn't want to do it but was like "I'll do whatever since obviously I have no choice. YOU'RE in control just like always."

I told her that I dont' want her to feel controlled. That for every other aspect of our marriage we were to work on The Policy of Joint Agreement. I told her that in regards to the affair, though, that just didn't apply. I was fighting for our marriage when she would not. I said "Our marriage can survive us being angry at one another. We'll get through that. It can't survive a continued affair though."

She still doesn't want to follow this process. AT ALL.

I was baited into biting off more than I could chew with that conversation. All I wanted to stress was no contact with him but ended up letting all this spill out.

Oh, and she is still furious about exposure.

Shattered, I think you made a mistake, here. If she wanted to talk, I don't think you should have launched out into making any points. I think you should have just listened.

She needs you to start meeting her emotional need for conversation; you can do that at this point by listening to her and encouraging her to talk. She is still fogged out on her drug and most of it will not make sense, and she will not be receptive to any points you want to make. But you can listen.

I think Pepperband has given you some excellent advice about this.

She cannot see. You are trying to make a falling down drunk see. Your approach is wrong.

I know markos. I screwed up.

This is good advice.

It's not over, Shattered. You know what to do next time.

Don't try to present her with this plan for now or your reason for being hopeful or try to persuade her that she is to be hopeful.

Just present yourself as being willing to listen to her.

That's not easy for a lot of us men. And sometimes we don't want to talk about what our wives want to talk about. Especially if it's an affair!

Just listen. Ask her to tell you more. Empathize. Tell her how sorry you are that she is going through this. She has just shot herself in the foot. Of course, she has done worse injury to you, but you are still sober and she is not, so there aren't too many alternatives at this point other than for you to be there for her. And doing so will begin to heal your marriage.

She will almost certainly come wanting to talk to you again, especially if she is completely cut off from OM.

SH, now I am really worried about your prospects when I read this. I am not certain why you think you screwed up. You did just great. If you get discouraged at the first sign of trouble, this does not have a bright future. Just because she is not jumping for joy does not mean you screwed up, it only means she is fogged out and angry that you interfered with her affair. There is nothing you can say to her right now short of agreeing to allow her to have a boyfriend that is going to inspire happiness on her part. She is not supposed to be happy and agreeable right now. You just took away the crack pipe!

This is why you have to be a broken record and stay firm here. She is testing to see if you really mean all this and are serious about your plan of recovery. If you run for the hills at the first sign of fogbabble, you are not going to make it, friend.

Be a broken record, tell her: "this is what it will take to recover our marriage. I do not want to stay in a loveless marriage. this is what it will take to make me feel safe."

If you want to lead your marriage out of this fog, you need to avoid appeasement, stop getting scared so easy, and stick to your plan of recovery. You are at a critical place and if she sees you run at the first sign of displeasure she will know you are not serious.

So no, you did not screw up. You just have unrealistic expectations about the mindset of a wayward.

How is it that she got a message from the OM if she has cut off contact?

She does not get to decide what is necessary for the recovery of your marriage, though. Those are extraordinary precautions that are NOT NEGOTIABLE. I think it is cute and winsome to listen to her and say some cute soothing things, but it won't recover your marriage. Appeasing a tyrannical wayward will avail you nothing. Rather, save your soothing cute words and use them to reward her for GOOD BEHAVIOR, not tyrannical behavior.

Not negotiable, SH. Your wife is still holding out hope for her affair and has NOT ended contact. This is WHY she is so hostile to the notion of recovery. Tell her this is NOT NEGOTIABLE and that not protecting your marriage from her affair will lead to divorce. This is not the time to get wobbly. If you want a marriage, you have to stick to your guns and not waver. Otherwise, she will know you are not serious and you won't have a marriage.

You can see where this sentence makes no sense, right?

Fogbabble. Ignore this. Consider it up there with "I can drink! I'm not an alcoholic!" While she's staggering and falling against the wall.

Of course not. You'll have to lead her into this. And you can do that.

Okay, a little too much too soon. You're okay, though. She is drunk and won't remember this when she has de-fogged.

It's working. Good job!

Melody, I did everything exactly how you just posted. I was a broken record. I stuck to my guns and told her "this is what it is going to take for you to start earning my trust back."

I told her it was non-negotiable. I told her that contact was not an option. I told her that choosing to contact him was choosing to end our marriage.

Oh and in regards to how she got his message, my fault. I childishly told her what he said in the hope that it would piss her off at him. She in turn reactivated her deactivated facebook page and confronted him about his threats. All I did was reset the clock with a renewed contact.

That is perfect! Then stick to it! Continue to tell her what it will take to keep you in this marriage. When she says "you're controlling me!!" You should say, "nope, I don't have the power to control you. But I do have the power to control whether or not I remain in an abusive marriage where you hurt me and the kids. And I chose to NOT stay in such a marriage."

I guess I am not understanding why you think something is wrong here. She is not expected to jump for joy at the prospect of not being able to continue her affair and continue to CONTROL YOU. She has had you under her control for a very long time and does not like you taking back control of your life.

But if she can manipulate you into silence and take back that control SHE WILL. Go along with that and you won't have a marriage, my friend. That is like handing the car keys to a falling down drunk. And that is where you were the day before you came here. So don't hand the keys back to a drunk over a little whining!!


No, you didn't reset the clock: SHE DID. She used that as an excuse to contact the OM.

Please do not back down now, SH. Stick with your recovery plan and lead your marriage. Don't let her whining scare you off. Continue to tell her that this will lead to DIVORCE if there is no plan of recovery.

And tell your kids DAMMIT!!! She very much needs that wake up call. Don't warn her, just sit them down and tell them about their mother's affair. Tell them you are doing everything to save your marriage and are hopeful that she will end contact with her adultery partner. Tell them to FEEL FREE to ask their mother about the affair.

here

Ok, so yesterday she woke up and the furious with me for exposure attitude prevailed for the morning.

Nevertheless, I woke up early to take kids to finish off Mother's Day shopping. Once I returned from shopping, her attitude seemed to have thawed. She started to act a little affectionate towards me a lot less detached. She again expressed feelings of love and concern towards me.

I didn't press the issue of the No Contact letter or the other five steps of the plan with her. I left it somewhere for her to find if she snoops instead.

I typed out the No Contact letter (almost verbatim of what Melody posted) and left it open on my laptop. I also left a note open on my laptop listing the five steps. I then left an internet explorer page open telling how to delete a Facebook account.

Now, up until now I haven't told anyone, including all of you how I have been snooping very effectively on her. I definitely haven't told her because I want to be able to continue snooping.

I don't want to post here how I am snooping either because I never know if she'll wander into these forums and read this. She has known since before I even suspected an affair that I read MB.

Well, my continued snooping allowed me to find a conversation she had with her aunt on Facebook. In that conversation, she sarcastically tells her aunt that I caught her in an emotional affair. She downplays the "affair" and chalks it up as being categorized as such as by my own paranoia.

She downplays her relationship with him because they didn't have sex. She does mention that she "had the opportunity to have sex with him but didn't". What she doesn't tell her is that she tried to have sex with him but he rejected her. She doesn't mention the conversation in which she calls him mean for rejecting her and not having sex with her. She makes herself out to be the good guy here by saying that she is being punished even though she didn't do anything. She expresses that she SHOULD have so that at least she could have gotten some enjoyment out of this situation for which she is now being punished. She even downplays her emotional connection to him. She conveniently doesn't tell her aunt that she told the guy repeatedly that she loves him (all the way up until hours before exposure) and that one day they'll find a way to be together. She leaves out that she told him that she'll understand if he finds someone to marry in the meantime but that she expects him to cheat on his wife with her if he does. She doesn't mention that, to him, she categorized their relationship as a "cheating affair" and states that she is bad at it and got caught.

Her aunt of course takes her side and says very hurtful things about me. Her aunt suggests she plays mind games with me to lead me to believe she is having an even more lurid affair.

She expresses that she found the stuff I left open on my computer about this exposure process and that she does not want to do any of it.

She also expresses that "my behavior" is making her "put on her running shoes" to leave me.

She mentions this exposure with severe scorn and mocks the process.

Her mom is coming into town today to stay with us for a few weeks. I can guarantee you that her mom will provide the same lopsided, ill-advised support that her aunt is providing. The exposure to her family has not had the desired effect.

The exposure to my family has had no effect because she is hiding from them and refuses to see them.

My very effective snooping has not uncovered any further contact with him.

Since contact appears to be severed, should I continue to focus on Plan A or should I shift to a Recovery Plan?

I think I know what to do next. Let's just see if what you guys are about to yell at me is what I'm thinking.

Call her mother and cancel the visit , give her some of the information you mentioned particularly how the OM rejected her sexual advances , you do not have to say how you came into the information, hell you may even imply it comes from the OM.

Start reversing the gaslighting, if her aunt and mother are not for you and the marriage then cut off family ties. Do not hesitate to tell your MIL that you will have zero tolerance for your wifes infidelity or your MIL's negative interferance. Warn her you have hard evidence and unless she wants her daughter to be humiliated by the release of this information she had best be a positive light for the marriage.Hold your ground.