OK. I will be smarter and so will she. Im not 100% sure why she dialed, I was right there, but only to tell him to take care of his wife. There will be no contact. Im reviewing her cell phone calls and emails and guarding her like never before. I was right there when she spoke to him, it was short, curt, and to the point. Maybe it triggered something, I dont know for sure, but I will be smarter not to let it happen.

My wife and I would like to read the books first and then make the decision to seek the Harleys help. It does seem likely as many of your are devoted and happily married because of doing so. So let me digest and get help from the material coming and we'll make the next step accordingly.

Actually it is the other way around. Getting involved in an affair is what made her feel so low about herself. There is nothing to esteem about a person who does that. Low self esteem is the RESULT, not the cause. If you behave in un-esteemable ways, you will naturally have low self esteem.

I am a recovering alcoholic. If I have a drink "in front of my husband" will it make me sober? Hell no. See, it makes no difference if you are there. Triggered is triggered. And now she is triggered. You being there does not change that. WHAT MATTERS IS SHE IS STILL IN CONTACT WITH THE OM. Guess what she is thinking about today?

This has to STOP. The OM knows her phone # and email address and still calls her. The solution is to cancel the phone # and the email account.

Step ONE is never see or speak to the OM again. You can't move onto Step TWO until that happens.


You can also use the program on your own without coaching from the Harleys if you are disciplined and stick to the lessons. There is a workbook that goes with the books called Five Steps to Romantic Love that they sell cheap here. If you can follow the lessons, you can recover your marriage on your own with the help of this forum and the radio show.

I will tell you why: Because she is still wayward and this is what waywards do. They want closure, to tell the OP off, or fill in the blank. THey will always look for another reason to contact. Close up all the loopholes and makes sure she understands this is UNACCPETABLE NO MATTER THE REASON.

Your anger won't subside for years. You have been traumatized. It doesnt' go away over night.


Mike, you have continually mentioned YOU leaving. If you decide to separate, it should be HER who leaves, since she had the affair. If you decide to abandon your marriage, you would want to file for divorce on grounds of adultery and seek possession of your home and primary custody. That is typically how it is done. You do not want to abandon your children and your home. If you did, I have no doubt she would invite the OM in and that would be a disaster for your children. Most judges frown on abandonment.

I don't agree it is the "high road" for you to stay and "forgive." It is sure not the high road if her abuse of you has created a resentment you can't overcome. Sometimes the resentment one has from being abused is too great to overcome. Your emotions may be telling you it is not a good idea to continue the relationship. After all, this goes WAY beyond the typical betrayal we see every day here. Your W brought her affair right into your home. It doesn't get much crueler than that. She rubbed her filthy affair in your nose and that of your children.

You may very well be able to overcome that, but don't think for a minute there is any shame in asking her to move and ending the marriage. You would be fully within your rights to divorce her.

That being said, I wouldn't make that decision right now. Give it some time. So far she has been what I consider a big FAIL because of her continued contact with the OM. That tells me she is not very sincere about ending her affair. She might be saying the right words, but her actions tell the true story. Talk is cheap, cheap, cheap with a wayward.

My reason for suggesting you call Steve Harley now, Mike is because as SusieQ mentioned, I see you letting your emotions drive the ship right now -- that is understandable in your position, so I am not saying it to put you down at all. I just believe STRONGLY that you and your wife would benefit GREATLY from some structure right now -- some immediate directives. Steve Harley is GREAT at that kind of guidance. Recovery is a VERY NARROW path and even slight deviations have proven disastrous. Your family deserves the best shot at recovery -- I know the Harleys can give you that.

Alarm bells sounded for me when I saw that you wrote the two of you were going to begin "joint marriage counseling". Please don't -- the mistakes many of them make could easily mean the downfall of your family. The last thing you need is a counselor who might be supportive of some very wayward stuff -- we see that happen VERY OFTEN around here -- in fact, we see it more often than not.

I also second what SusieQ said about Antidepressants -- those would help smooth out the emotional ups and downs you are going through right now.

Mrs. W

Agree with MrsW. Marriage counseling is destructive to marriages. They don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages and have an 84% failure rate. They have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. You are very likely to end up in a "trial separation" if you go to a MC.

When your WW lips are moving she is probably telling a lie. While in the fog of an Affair. Your getting superior advice here. Harley's program specializes on Adultery.
2 things you must demand
1) No contact for life
2) Plan of recovering the M to romantic love
Then just like anything in your life worth having you roll up your sleeves and get to work. Giving it Time and Care. But you have to also tell her what your boundaries are. If they are crossed you have to be able to act on the consequences.
I affirmed to my wife as needed. I will not try to reconcile my M if you have any contact with OM EVER AGAIN. I will also not live in a uncaring, unfulfilled Marriage any more. I am here and willing to work on the steps to a happy M under these conditions. Now would you like to go on a walk?

Look people, I thank you for all your input, and I really mean I think you helped me a lot. As cruel and downright vicious her A was to me by bringing him into our home, you are indicating factors that do not exist. I know you are not here and dont have the insight as I do, but what you describe is far from what is real. I dont have the time to rebut all what you said and I have understood your concern.

At this time, however, I am going wait for the SAA and other book I ordered to get here and I am going refrain from my posting. I am going to take the productive advice Ive gotten and I am going to work towards ending my need to blast my FWW when I got the urges. Im sorry to say, however true your words may be and perhaps may come back to be true in my case, they tend to upset me and I am sharing your thought with my FWW. I know you are warning me from experience.

I know you who have been through this dont believe a word she says but I see a woman who is very through with this OM. The demensions of that relationship made her look downright cheap and shallow and she is mortified she let continue. I believe this sincerely. We are going work to find out what it is inside that made her this way and I want to be a part of that process. I am restarting our recovery, 1) because the contact with OM on Sat night, however short, means I have to restart, and 2) because the absolute worst bashing I gave last night means a restart.

I am going to protect her from any need to reach out to him and I am going to protect me from any further hurt by doing the things that may have brought this on from my end. She will work as she is everyday and hour to continue helping me understand what happened and reduce its pain on me. I see a very sorry woman who has done everything someone in her shoes needs to do. She is not a perfect person and freely admits it.

So, I am going to stand down from checking this each hour and Im going to use the materials in mail. I have a lot of work to do adn so does she. I only can go by what she says to me and what i see in her eyes and that is she wants the last 7 years to go away and restart our marriage. She has begged me for forgiveness. And, I have said to her on more than one occasion if she wants OM and Im sure he'd leave his wife for my FWW, the time to do it is now. I told her life is too short to be with me if OM is what is going to make her happy.

Im not going to rehash earlier posts about OM and his ways, not worth it. My FWW has lived it and regrets all of it now. As nice and wonderful as he appeared in my home and to my kids, he used his money to court my wife and to keep her close. And she went willingly. He kept my wife from achieving anything in terms of a career because that would have meant she search for a job away from him years ago. She stayed with him willingly. He used his money and power to get her to satisfy him when needed. She did this willingly. I know is ironic to say one thing and then to say she did it willingly, but this is how I see it. There was a love that grew into a very easy way of life and it spiraled into what it became. It became normal which is where we are working to find out why.

We lost 7 years and we'll have to deal with that as adults.

So, when I have completed SAA I will come back here to share my thoughts and hopefully she and I will have things to move forward from.

What you will learn is this: We are all wired for affairs. Your wife did not take extraordinary precautions to protect her weaknesses, so she allowed another man to meet her emotional needs. Her feelings followed her actions. There is no need for any deep soul searching or looking "inside", Mike. It really is as simple as that.

Good luck to you.

Mrs. W

Thank you. I will protect her if she cannot. She has too much to lose. Take care.

She called him because she wanted to hear his voice.

Mike, friend, you are being snowed. She's got you chasing your own tail. Never a good thing to see. And I'm not talking about US seeing it. I'm talking about HER seeing it. She is showing ZERO respect for you. ZERO.

Mike, I would not advise that you go by what she says at all. That would be a mistake. A better strategy is to go by her actions. Her words will mislead. She is in the long habit of decieving you. Because of that, I would give her an opportunity to EARN your forgivness. Handing over unearned, inappropriate forgiveness will hurt you, her, and your marriage. It is in her best interest to EARN it. I would give her that opportunity but I will tell you I am not impressed so far. She has not ended contact with her OM and I have my doubts she will.

here

Listen to them! It is good advice. These things all follow a pattern...

I can usually tell a BS who has been successfully snowed by his/her wayward. They post unusually large posts explaining why we are wrong, and why their situation is 'special' or their wayward is 'different'. Waywards are all the same, Mike. Only the names change.

May I disabuse you of some of your notions?

While it's exceptionally abusive to find out that a wayward has brought their affair partner in the marital home, the fact that is most horrific is that they had the affair in the first place.

I think, when you really think about it, you'll realize that our words aren't what is upsetting you. The actions of your wayward wife are what is upsetting you. You're taking the voices of experience to her, basically saying "Tell me this isn't YOU!" And she will comply. This is why you look at her as a victim. Mike, she's not going to come clean if she thinks it's going to be painful. She's wayward. She's going to take the coward's way out every time if she thinks she can get away with it. It's what waywards do.

I hope you're right. I've read this before. And then the poster has come back later and said "You were right."

Say WHAT??? She needs to demonstrate to YOU that she is willing to protect YOU and your MARRIAGE. YOU'RE protecting HER??? From what??

She has yet to demonstrate any extraordinary precautions to protect your marriage. All she's done is express her sorrow over the affair being caught.

It wasn't love. It was an appalling departure from what love is. It was GREED. It was SELFISHNESS. It was DISHONESTY to the nth degree. It was NOT love. It is a slap in the face to every faithful marriage to call this thing LOVE.

Good luck.

Mike, would you consider counseling with Steve H? You mentioned earlier that you planned to attend MC with your wayward. Please understand that most MCs aren't worth the office space they occupy. Steve knows how to supply you with the tools you need to repair your marriage.

You will be very, very impressed.

7 years of lies = Way too much.

Kick her to the curb. What have you got to lose, a 2 out of 10 sex life?

You can do better. Seriously, can you do worse???

This is unacceptable advice coming from a divorced man who was unable to save his M. Trying,this poster has no interest in ending his marriage. Do you understand that? Please don't distract him from saving his M.

I was lied to for almost 8 and I have to say this isn't necessarily true. He has everything to lose by leaving. He stands to gain so much more by staying.

Hey, TE, see if you can follow this analogy:

Guy 1: My car is giving me lots of trouble, won't start, bad gas mileage, runs rough, no "pep". I need to have it serviced. Any ideas?

Guy 2: Are you crazy? As soon as it acts up, dump it! Crush it if you have to. I did exactly that and I know what I'm talking about.

MS, I think you have a great deal to offer your family in the realm of maturity and intelligent compassion. Keep fighting the good fight. We (or at least MOST of us) will give you the support you might require to get through the rough patches.