Hello everyone. I have been lurking for about 2 weeks, and want to thank everyone for this fantastic forum. Now I'm feeling brave enough having been reading the principals to ask for some advice myself.

Have been in a relationship for 18 years, married for 11. Husband is 36, I am 33, no children. Neither of us has had an affair, and he maintains that there is no one else involved and I believe him. Up until 4 weeks ago I was happy with our marriage, and unaware of any serious issues. Then I left husband overseas where we have been living to resettle in Australia, with husband expecting to follow shortly after (tying up loose ends whilst I had a job to start back in Australia). Two weeks after I left husband expressed "concerns for our future"and suggested he wanted a seperation. I was devestated and very shocked, this seemed to come out of the blue. He arrived in Australia two weeks after that, having refused to talk to me about his concerns until face to face, but definitely giving me the impression we could work on it.

Instead, he steps off the plane and says it is over, he loves me but is not in love with me. He stayed with his family for a few days allowing us to meet and discuss this before he left to go interstate to visit other family. Our conversations involve lots of tears as well as laughter, and he admits when our relationship is good it is excellent, he just feels that in the last five years he has been the only one fighting to save our marriage and that he is now exhausted.

I have done a lot of soul searching and I accept I have taken him for granted. There have been a lot of LB's on my part, where I have taken out my unhappiness at being overseas on him... not a good excuse and I realise now my selfishness may have driven him away for good although I am struggling to accept this given overall I still feel the marriage has a good foundation to build on. He also sent very mixed messages (although he does not accept this) as he admits he lied about his unhappiness in an effort to convince himself and me that the marriage was okay. He says when we travel together (we have just returned from a 12 month career break and do this frequently) everything is fantastic, but when we return to reality he says I am too negative and I realise I have not been meeting his EN's. We have only been back in "reality" for about 3 months, two before I left for Australia. He is now flying back overseas in next few weeks for indefinite period, giving me borrowed time to try to top up lovebank, especially given he is no longer living with me and I am seeing very little of him (still interstate but returning soon). I have asked for another chance to try to make us work and make changes, but he seems pretty decided that he can see no way that his feelings will change and is "defeated". I have gotten a copy of 5 steps, not realising that I should have also ordered Lovebusters and His needs, her needs, and he has agreed to have a look. He is also going to read the link I sent on the first chapter of Lovebusters and then we'll discuss if I should order a copy (it will take some time to get here, can't source in Australia). I felt crushing despair yesterday that it was over, although today when I text him about the link to Loverbusters he text back to say he will read it and he understands my need for him to look in the same direction as I am. Is that a positive to suggest he might be contemplating moving back from withdrawal into conflict? Please give me some tips on how I can develop a plan to fight for us as the only spouse who is motivated at the present.

Thanks for reading!

Hi Caracal,

At a minimum, the two of you have independent lives instead of interdependent lives. One of the most important Marriage Builder's principles is to spend at least 15 hours a week meeting each other's intimate emotional needs (affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment). You can only do this when together. There appears to be extensive travel in your marriage and long periods when you are not physically together.

I know you said there is no affair. However, "I love you, but am not in love with you" is THE most common statement of someone in an affiar. My suggestion is that you snoop to ensure there is no affair. There is an entire forum on how to snoop, operation investigate. My H denied an affair when I asked him. Four days later, I had enough phone records to bust the whole thing open. People in affairs are huge liars. Just check it out so you can be exactly certain about what you are dealing with.

AM



AM

I totally agree with armymama. Another big clue is the fact that your husband has decided NOT to return to Australia where he has family. He is returning to your former country to be with the other person.

I would quietly hire a PI and see who he is having the affair with. You have to get the facts before you can move forward. Don't ask him and don't accuse him of having an affair. Quietly get the facts and come back here. We will help you with next steps.

Sorry you are here.

Thanks for the advice, although everyone seems to suspect an affair I really believe it unlikely. I had only been out of the country for 2 weeks when he expressed concerns, and he had only been back in the country for two months (with me) and we spend a lot of time together (prior to this seperation). Also, just to clear up armymama, when I say career breaks I mean we travel together, spending nearly every minute of the day / night together for up to twelve months at a time. I feel we get along like a house on fire when travelling, and this is when he also says we have absolutely no marriage problems, only problems when we return to work / routine. So in the space of two months (when we returned from travelling) he has decided enough is enough... I just don't get it.

I will have a look at the how to snoop advice, but think this will be very difficult. He has pay as you go phone, where he lives / works overseas is not on street so any PI would really struggle to keep any tabs on him and he has no bills. I managed to sneak a peek at his bank statement prior to his leaving overseas as I was responsible for his banking, nothing untoward there. He has just opened an email account (never had one previously) for his banking purposes as we have both now changed all of our accounts, but obviously I can't access this. Any other suggestions?

Meanwhile I am proceeding as though he is not having an affair, how should I go about this?

Thanks for your advice!

Have just looked at the snooping forum, and none of these options are viable for me. He does not have laptop or home computer, no phone contract and I can't access his mobile anyway, no landline... but your advice rings alarm bells and I want to know if their is someone else as obviously that changes everything!

That is plenty enough time to cement an affair. This has all the ear markings of an affair, I am sorry to say. My suggestion would be to hire a PI to tail him for a couple of days to see what he is doing. If he IS having an affair all of your efforts would be for naught because you wouldn't be addressing the correct problem. It really has to be ruled out.

Yes. Particularly if the woman is aggressive. She probably had been watching him and flirting when she saw him alone. When she heard that you were leaving the country, she moved in on him. Two weeks of "romance" can make a man think he's in love.

Were you friendly with any of your neighbors? Do you have a way to contact them and see if they know what happened?

Welcome to Marrige Builders, Caracal. I know you feel there is no affair, but these are classic signs, from the old chestnut "I love you but I'm not in love with you" to the rewrite of your marital history.

Can you confirm where he is staying right now?

Dr Willard Harley: "I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.

Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings."

Sorry you are here but welcome.

ITA with everyone else, huge red flags being raised.

Just bite the bullet and hire a PI. Once you get the evidence, we can help you bust this up.

In the meantime, PLEASE do not do what many BSs do...which is to try to talk to your WH about his A. Hang in there.

I'm getting nowhere with the snooping, and anything I do turn up suggests no affair. He lives and works on private property so PI couldn't access it. Also, I snoopped with happily married friends who live there as well, he went out only with them a few times in my absence and some colleagues (who were all accompanied by partners) and they have no suspicions also. He says he is returning overseas for "space" and admittedly I have become too eager in my attempt to convince him for a last chance. Maybe he is simply running away from me?

He has read first chapter of Lovebusters I downloaded and say he just can't see his feelings being able to change.

Feeling very despondant in my chances, am worried I am going to go into withdrawal if I don't figure a plan out.

I ain't buying it. This is an affair. A PI can watch who comes in and out. And if he is having an affair, it doesn't mean they would spend all their time at the private property.


If your car needs a tune up do you get it tuned up or do you say "oh well" and leave it on the side of the road? The solution to an unhappy marriage is to work to turn it around, but oddly your H doesn't want to do that. That is another red flag that indicates there is a REASON he is not interested in turning it around.

"space" means being able to continue the affair without your interference. You cannot find signs of the affair because the OW is overseas where he was "wrapping up details" after you left.

Space = code for space to carry on an affair. I am telling you, there is an affair here. That is the key to resolving this.

You have all certainly got me suspicious and although I feel borderline stalkerish I am trying to find out what a PI could offer. My difficulty is that if there is OW I believe she would likely live on the private property and how on earth could PI access that? And obviously none of these suspicions can be looked into by PI until husband returns overseas, not for another two weeks. Meanwhile, what advice do you offer on how to handle the situation now?

An update on what has been happening for us. Today he came around to sort through belongings and pack his stuff that was stored at my family's. I asked if we could go for coffee to have a chat which we did, and we spent two hours talking about family / friends, with me keeping it very cheerful and upbeat as I don't want him to associate me with misery (which since the split I admit I have been desperate almost to the point of begging). We had a really good conversation (which I initiated) as in an email he had sent he said he did not want it to get nasty between us, and I used this to summarise where we are at (coming from totally different opinions with him having given up and me wanting to try) and how we can keep the relationship from not getting nasty. We agreed on some rules that if either of us needs space or is having a bad day when the other contacts we need to say so and arrange another day / time. I am pretty proud of myself in that I did not try to impose my view on him, as both of us have been doing up to this point. I also discussed that we have reached a stalemate but that this will not last (he agreed that either he will change his mind although he doubts that, or I will give up and move on, which he thinks is more likely).

After that we spent another three hours sorting through stuff and actually sitting and having honest conversation about what has gone wrong, where we have neglected the other, and regretting what we have both lost. There were lots of tears but still lots of laughter, and I am just so confused about where this is heading. I am meeting him again on weekend to go through storage, and am trying very hard not to get my hopes up as he is still adamant I need to move on. I am also working hard on developing a Plan B for myself (not the marriage) so that if this does fail I have a plan on how to make myself happy. I have arranged to see a counsellor next week, as I realise there are issues from how I have dealt with this relationship that I want to change for the future, and husband was shocked to hear that I am doing this but is still not interested in reading Lovebusters etc.

I am certain if there is an affair it is not physical, but am increasingly concerned his motivation to return overseas is to change an EA to PA...Sorry for venting like this, but can anyone offer advice on how to proceed for the next fortnight when at this time I can neither prove / disprove an EA?

Caracal, can you get ahold of his phone and look at his text messages? And see who he is calling?

I am concerned that you are giving him the impression that you don't care very much. My suggestion would be to tell him that you are very hurt and that you won't cooperate with any schemes to separate. Let him know that his plan is so hurtful that if he goes through with it, you have no intention of being his "friend." You will be surprised at how upset this will make him.

Let him know that you will only discuss and cooperate with plans to fix your marriage.

See, what is happening here is that he is trying to make you his "friend" so he won't feel so guilty about abandoning you. By being so friendly, you are helping him abandon you by assuaging his guilt. That is not good for your marriage. He needs to understand that oyu are his wife, not his "friend." What he is doing is very hurtful and cruel. Let him know you won't be staying in touch if he goes through with this and you certainly won't be his friend.

I would wager that he is in contact with this OW right now, so I would do what you have to do to get the goods. Get his phone, listen in, whatever.


I would be very surprised to find out a married man was leaving his marriage for an affair that had not turned physical.

Thanks for all your support MelodyLane, I am trying to weigh up advice you are giving but for some reason it just doesn't all "fit" if that makes sense. Maybe I am just clinging to denial?

I can't get hold of his phone, we are having very limited contact although I will see him tomorrow but that is again going through storage and his phone will be in pocket.

As for seeming uncaring... that has made me think. I can't see that he would not understand my motives for trying to make things work. During one conversation I did ask him why he thought I was trying to reconcile, and he asked "why", making me explain that I still loved him. He is also now questioning whether it is healthy for me to be contacting him when my motives are to reconcile, so he must be aware that I care. I accept I have not in the past few years shown him the extent that I care, and wonder if he is making me jump through some hoops? but that is again hope, as I am more convinced that he has made his mind up and there is no going back.

I rang his sister today for advice. We have always been close and respected each other, and she has promised that she will not disclose my contact as she is aware that this is "very delicate" and he is "very stubborn". She could not really give me any insight into his behaviour, his entire family seem as confused as I am. I asked whether she had any suspicion of affair overseas, and she said she was sure there was no one, and that he was not texting suspiciously, on the phone or emailing whilst staying with her. But she is concerned about his returning overseas and again can not really answer his urgency with this, everyone is flabbergasted as he does not really like his job and originally wanted to return to be with family. She did question whether it is early mid-life crisis, and that he may be feeling pressured to start a family with me, and she says he is very concerned about money. He also keeps mentioning that I need to "find myself" as I have been so unhappy. I take this on board but also feel at the minute he is the one trying to find himself... he keeps going on to me and family about feeling liberated about becoming more independent, relieved that a weight is off his shoulders, and even started telling me about how at this sister's one of her attractive friend's noticed him and asked about him. He has also mentioned to family that we married very young and that he feels we have changed.

I can not keep going like this, every time we have contact I go up and down like a yo-yo, realise I am overanalysing everything he says but am aware that there just does not seem to be much hope. The reason this devestates me so much is I still feel so much love for him and we have so much potential to make each other so very happy. Tonight he rang to finalise time to meet tomorrow, and I said I had not slept well the night before given we had been sorting through all of our stuff and had so many memories. He agreed that he has not slept well either, but this is the only thing I have to go on that he is even considering anything I say...

As for your suggestion MelodyLane, about telling him I won't communicate unless it is to discuss working on the marriage, I am worried this might drive him away, as he is not one who would accept ultimatums (although he has often tried to use these on me in the past). But I can see that maybe I am beating myself up to much on someone who is not in the slighted motivated to give us a chance. Anyone else have any thoughts on how I should handle the next fortnight?

Cara,

I am sorry, but your H's behavior and interactions with you SCREAM affair. Somewhere, there is someone waiting in the wings for him to leave his marriage. He is being secretive with his communications and you have not found a way to snoop.

People in affairs do not want their spouse to work on improving the marriage. They would rather have a re-write of the marriage and the spouse's actions so the wayward can feel justified in what they are doing. "Finding myself" means getting the spouse out of the way so they are not interfering with the affair.

Maybe since you cannot find a way to snoop and he has a cellphone and new email, ask to see them, After all, he is not having an affair. There should be no reason he would not show you his call history or emails, right?

AM

If you do care and do want to reconcile, then why would you act like everything is ok? That is the point I am trying to convey. Here you are acting like everything is ok. Is that how a person acts who cares about losing her spouse? Because that is the message you are sending.

Here is what Steve Harley of Marriage Builders told another board member about this kind of reaction - this is written by the betrayed husband:




Do you see how ironic this statement is? He is already driven away. He is leaving the marriage and living in a foreign country. He *IS* driven away. And the notion that you will remain his "friend" while he does this to you, serves to ENABLE him. This helps him feel less guilty about his decision. You are helping him in assuaging his guilt, and that works AGAINST YOU.


Who do you think is the least objective person on this thread? Who has an emotional interest in not believing what we are trying to tell you?

I can see my posts are not getting through, so I will move on. I wish you the best.