Hello everyone. I have been lurking for about 2 weeks, and want to thank everyone for this fantastic forum. Now I'm feeling brave enough having been reading the principals to ask for some advice myself.

Have been in a relationship for 18 years, married for 11. Husband is 36, I am 33, no children. Neither of us has had an affair, and he maintains that there is no one else involved and I believe him. Up until 4 weeks ago I was happy with our marriage, and unaware of any serious issues. Then I left husband overseas where we have been living to resettle in Australia, with husband expecting to follow shortly after (tying up loose ends whilst I had a job to start back in Australia). Two weeks after I left husband expressed "concerns for our future"and suggested he wanted a seperation. I was devestated and very shocked, this seemed to come out of the blue. He arrived in Australia two weeks after that, having refused to talk to me about his concerns until face to face, but definitely giving me the impression we could work on it.

Instead, he steps off the plane and says it is over, he loves me but is not in love with me. He stayed with his family for a few days allowing us to meet and discuss this before he left to go interstate to visit other family. Our conversations involve lots of tears as well as laughter, and he admits when our relationship is good it is excellent, he just feels that in the last five years he has been the only one fighting to save our marriage and that he is now exhausted.

I have done a lot of soul searching and I accept I have taken him for granted. There have been a lot of LB's on my part, where I have taken out my unhappiness at being overseas on him... not a good excuse and I realise now my selfishness may have driven him away for good although I am struggling to accept this given overall I still feel the marriage has a good foundation to build on. He also sent very mixed messages (although he does not accept this) as he admits he lied about his unhappiness in an effort to convince himself and me that the marriage was okay. He says when we travel together (we have just returned from a 12 month career break and do this frequently) everything is fantastic, but when we return to reality he says I am too negative and I realise I have not been meeting his EN's. We have only been back in "reality" for about 3 months, two before I left for Australia. He is now flying back overseas in next few weeks for indefinite period, giving me borrowed time to try to top up lovebank, especially given he is no longer living with me and I am seeing very little of him (still interstate but returning soon). I have asked for another chance to try to make us work and make changes, but he seems pretty decided that he can see no way that his feelings will change and is "defeated". I have gotten a copy of 5 steps, not realising that I should have also ordered Lovebusters and His needs, her needs, and he has agreed to have a look. He is also going to read the link I sent on the first chapter of Lovebusters and then we'll discuss if I should order a copy (it will take some time to get here, can't source in Australia). I felt crushing despair yesterday that it was over, although today when I text him about the link to Loverbusters he text back to say he will read it and he understands my need for him to look in the same direction as I am. Is that a positive to suggest he might be contemplating moving back from withdrawal into conflict? Please give me some tips on how I can develop a plan to fight for us as the only spouse who is motivated at the present.

Thanks for reading!

Hi Caracal,

At a minimum, the two of you have independent lives instead of interdependent lives. One of the most important Marriage Builder's principles is to spend at least 15 hours a week meeting each other's intimate emotional needs (affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment). You can only do this when together. There appears to be extensive travel in your marriage and long periods when you are not physically together.

I know you said there is no affair. However, "I love you, but am not in love with you" is THE most common statement of someone in an affiar. My suggestion is that you snoop to ensure there is no affair. There is an entire forum on how to snoop, operation investigate. My H denied an affair when I asked him. Four days later, I had enough phone records to bust the whole thing open. People in affairs are huge liars. Just check it out so you can be exactly certain about what you are dealing with.

AM



AM

I totally agree with armymama. Another big clue is the fact that your husband has decided NOT to return to Australia where he has family. He is returning to your former country to be with the other person.

I would quietly hire a PI and see who he is having the affair with. You have to get the facts before you can move forward. Don't ask him and don't accuse him of having an affair. Quietly get the facts and come back here. We will help you with next steps.

Sorry you are here.

Thanks for the advice, although everyone seems to suspect an affair I really believe it unlikely. I had only been out of the country for 2 weeks when he expressed concerns, and he had only been back in the country for two months (with me) and we spend a lot of time together (prior to this seperation). Also, just to clear up armymama, when I say career breaks I mean we travel together, spending nearly every minute of the day / night together for up to twelve months at a time. I feel we get along like a house on fire when travelling, and this is when he also says we have absolutely no marriage problems, only problems when we return to work / routine. So in the space of two months (when we returned from travelling) he has decided enough is enough... I just don't get it.

I will have a look at the how to snoop advice, but think this will be very difficult. He has pay as you go phone, where he lives / works overseas is not on street so any PI would really struggle to keep any tabs on him and he has no bills. I managed to sneak a peek at his bank statement prior to his leaving overseas as I was responsible for his banking, nothing untoward there. He has just opened an email account (never had one previously) for his banking purposes as we have both now changed all of our accounts, but obviously I can't access this. Any other suggestions?

Meanwhile I am proceeding as though he is not having an affair, how should I go about this?

Thanks for your advice!

Have just looked at the snooping forum, and none of these options are viable for me. He does not have laptop or home computer, no phone contract and I can't access his mobile anyway, no landline... but your advice rings alarm bells and I want to know if their is someone else as obviously that changes everything!

That is plenty enough time to cement an affair. This has all the ear markings of an affair, I am sorry to say. My suggestion would be to hire a PI to tail him for a couple of days to see what he is doing. If he IS having an affair all of your efforts would be for naught because you wouldn't be addressing the correct problem. It really has to be ruled out.

Yes. Particularly if the woman is aggressive. She probably had been watching him and flirting when she saw him alone. When she heard that you were leaving the country, she moved in on him. Two weeks of "romance" can make a man think he's in love.

Were you friendly with any of your neighbors? Do you have a way to contact them and see if they know what happened?

Welcome to Marrige Builders, Caracal. I know you feel there is no affair, but these are classic signs, from the old chestnut "I love you but I'm not in love with you" to the rewrite of your marital history.

Can you confirm where he is staying right now?

Dr Willard Harley: "I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.

Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings."

Sorry you are here but welcome.

ITA with everyone else, huge red flags being raised.

Just bite the bullet and hire a PI. Once you get the evidence, we can help you bust this up.

In the meantime, PLEASE do not do what many BSs do...which is to try to talk to your WH about his A. Hang in there.

I'm getting nowhere with the snooping, and anything I do turn up suggests no affair. He lives and works on private property so PI couldn't access it. Also, I snoopped with happily married friends who live there as well, he went out only with them a few times in my absence and some colleagues (who were all accompanied by partners) and they have no suspicions also. He says he is returning overseas for "space" and admittedly I have become too eager in my attempt to convince him for a last chance. Maybe he is simply running away from me?

He has read first chapter of Lovebusters I downloaded and say he just can't see his feelings being able to change.

Feeling very despondant in my chances, am worried I am going to go into withdrawal if I don't figure a plan out.

I ain't buying it. This is an affair. A PI can watch who comes in and out. And if he is having an affair, it doesn't mean they would spend all their time at the private property.


If your car needs a tune up do you get it tuned up or do you say "oh well" and leave it on the side of the road? The solution to an unhappy marriage is to work to turn it around, but oddly your H doesn't want to do that. That is another red flag that indicates there is a REASON he is not interested in turning it around.

"space" means being able to continue the affair without your interference. You cannot find signs of the affair because the OW is overseas where he was "wrapping up details" after you left.

Space = code for space to carry on an affair. I am telling you, there is an affair here. That is the key to resolving this.

You have all certainly got me suspicious and although I feel borderline stalkerish I am trying to find out what a PI could offer. My difficulty is that if there is OW I believe she would likely live on the private property and how on earth could PI access that? And obviously none of these suspicions can be looked into by PI until husband returns overseas, not for another two weeks. Meanwhile, what advice do you offer on how to handle the situation now?

An update on what has been happening for us. Today he came around to sort through belongings and pack his stuff that was stored at my family's. I asked if we could go for coffee to have a chat which we did, and we spent two hours talking about family / friends, with me keeping it very cheerful and upbeat as I don't want him to associate me with misery (which since the split I admit I have been desperate almost to the point of begging). We had a really good conversation (which I initiated) as in an email he had sent he said he did not want it to get nasty between us, and I used this to summarise where we are at (coming from totally different opinions with him having given up and me wanting to try) and how we can keep the relationship from not getting nasty. We agreed on some rules that if either of us needs space or is having a bad day when the other contacts we need to say so and arrange another day / time. I am pretty proud of myself in that I did not try to impose my view on him, as both of us have been doing up to this point. I also discussed that we have reached a stalemate but that this will not last (he agreed that either he will change his mind although he doubts that, or I will give up and move on, which he thinks is more likely).

After that we spent another three hours sorting through stuff and actually sitting and having honest conversation about what has gone wrong, where we have neglected the other, and regretting what we have both lost. There were lots of tears but still lots of laughter, and I am just so confused about where this is heading. I am meeting him again on weekend to go through storage, and am trying very hard not to get my hopes up as he is still adamant I need to move on. I am also working hard on developing a Plan B for myself (not the marriage) so that if this does fail I have a plan on how to make myself happy. I have arranged to see a counsellor next week, as I realise there are issues from how I have dealt with this relationship that I want to change for the future, and husband was shocked to hear that I am doing this but is still not interested in reading Lovebusters etc.

I am certain if there is an affair it is not physical, but am increasingly concerned his motivation to return overseas is to change an EA to PA...Sorry for venting like this, but can anyone offer advice on how to proceed for the next fortnight when at this time I can neither prove / disprove an EA?

Caracal, can you get ahold of his phone and look at his text messages? And see who he is calling?

I am concerned that you are giving him the impression that you don't care very much. My suggestion would be to tell him that you are very hurt and that you won't cooperate with any schemes to separate. Let him know that his plan is so hurtful that if he goes through with it, you have no intention of being his "friend." You will be surprised at how upset this will make him.

Let him know that you will only discuss and cooperate with plans to fix your marriage.

See, what is happening here is that he is trying to make you his "friend" so he won't feel so guilty about abandoning you. By being so friendly, you are helping him abandon you by assuaging his guilt. That is not good for your marriage. He needs to understand that oyu are his wife, not his "friend." What he is doing is very hurtful and cruel. Let him know you won't be staying in touch if he goes through with this and you certainly won't be his friend.

I would wager that he is in contact with this OW right now, so I would do what you have to do to get the goods. Get his phone, listen in, whatever.


I would be very surprised to find out a married man was leaving his marriage for an affair that had not turned physical.

Thanks for all your support MelodyLane, I am trying to weigh up advice you are giving but for some reason it just doesn't all "fit" if that makes sense. Maybe I am just clinging to denial?

I can't get hold of his phone, we are having very limited contact although I will see him tomorrow but that is again going through storage and his phone will be in pocket.

As for seeming uncaring... that has made me think. I can't see that he would not understand my motives for trying to make things work. During one conversation I did ask him why he thought I was trying to reconcile, and he asked "why", making me explain that I still loved him. He is also now questioning whether it is healthy for me to be contacting him when my motives are to reconcile, so he must be aware that I care. I accept I have not in the past few years shown him the extent that I care, and wonder if he is making me jump through some hoops? but that is again hope, as I am more convinced that he has made his mind up and there is no going back.

I rang his sister today for advice. We have always been close and respected each other, and she has promised that she will not disclose my contact as she is aware that this is "very delicate" and he is "very stubborn". She could not really give me any insight into his behaviour, his entire family seem as confused as I am. I asked whether she had any suspicion of affair overseas, and she said she was sure there was no one, and that he was not texting suspiciously, on the phone or emailing whilst staying with her. But she is concerned about his returning overseas and again can not really answer his urgency with this, everyone is flabbergasted as he does not really like his job and originally wanted to return to be with family. She did question whether it is early mid-life crisis, and that he may be feeling pressured to start a family with me, and she says he is very concerned about money. He also keeps mentioning that I need to "find myself" as I have been so unhappy. I take this on board but also feel at the minute he is the one trying to find himself... he keeps going on to me and family about feeling liberated about becoming more independent, relieved that a weight is off his shoulders, and even started telling me about how at this sister's one of her attractive friend's noticed him and asked about him. He has also mentioned to family that we married very young and that he feels we have changed.

I can not keep going like this, every time we have contact I go up and down like a yo-yo, realise I am overanalysing everything he says but am aware that there just does not seem to be much hope. The reason this devestates me so much is I still feel so much love for him and we have so much potential to make each other so very happy. Tonight he rang to finalise time to meet tomorrow, and I said I had not slept well the night before given we had been sorting through all of our stuff and had so many memories. He agreed that he has not slept well either, but this is the only thing I have to go on that he is even considering anything I say...

As for your suggestion MelodyLane, about telling him I won't communicate unless it is to discuss working on the marriage, I am worried this might drive him away, as he is not one who would accept ultimatums (although he has often tried to use these on me in the past). But I can see that maybe I am beating myself up to much on someone who is not in the slighted motivated to give us a chance. Anyone else have any thoughts on how I should handle the next fortnight?

Cara,

I am sorry, but your H's behavior and interactions with you SCREAM affair. Somewhere, there is someone waiting in the wings for him to leave his marriage. He is being secretive with his communications and you have not found a way to snoop.

People in affairs do not want their spouse to work on improving the marriage. They would rather have a re-write of the marriage and the spouse's actions so the wayward can feel justified in what they are doing. "Finding myself" means getting the spouse out of the way so they are not interfering with the affair.

Maybe since you cannot find a way to snoop and he has a cellphone and new email, ask to see them, After all, he is not having an affair. There should be no reason he would not show you his call history or emails, right?

AM

If you do care and do want to reconcile, then why would you act like everything is ok? That is the point I am trying to convey. Here you are acting like everything is ok. Is that how a person acts who cares about losing her spouse? Because that is the message you are sending.

Here is what Steve Harley of Marriage Builders told another board member about this kind of reaction - this is written by the betrayed husband:




Do you see how ironic this statement is? He is already driven away. He is leaving the marriage and living in a foreign country. He *IS* driven away. And the notion that you will remain his "friend" while he does this to you, serves to ENABLE him. This helps him feel less guilty about his decision. You are helping him in assuaging his guilt, and that works AGAINST YOU.


Who do you think is the least objective person on this thread? Who has an emotional interest in not believing what we are trying to tell you?

I can see my posts are not getting through, so I will move on. I wish you the best.

You're paying the PI to figure that out. It's his problem, not yours. And do you think this would be the first time a PI had to deal with someone working or living on private property?

And I'm sure that HE'S pleased that he was able to impose his on you.


Because the faster you 'move on' the less guilt he'll feel for giving you the boot for another woman.

I am very concerned about your actions. They are hastening the end of your marriage. Is that your goal? To be buddies with your EX?

He doesn't want you to contact him because it makes him feel guilty and is intruding on his fantasy life.

Okay, this isn't like menopause, Cara. We've got posters on here of all ages, from their early 20's through their 70's, all dealing with the devastation of an affair. That alone should help you to understand that people don't have affairs because they're 45. Or whatever they consider to be 'mid-life'. We have posters on here who are middle-aged and have never had an affair. Do you know the difference between the two?

The adulterer has a sense of entitlement ("I deserve the attention OP is giving me!") loose/non-existent boundaries, and opportunity.

The faithful spouse understands that maintaining healthy boundaries keeps the marriage safe. They do not look outside of their marriage to have their needs met. They avoid situations that serve as an opportunity to endanger their marriage.

Mid-life crisis? No. That's a one-size-fits-all piece of pop culture that doesn't work here.

Yes, ma'm, you are. And that will not serve you.

You may not see this , or you may have found out the worst & do not need it anymore but your story has all the red flags. I'm sorry ..... nobody deserves it.

But just incase your still doubting & being in denial here is a post I found last summer. Kind of funny but still breaks your heart because you know you have heard some of these from your H. I know I heard the majority of them. WS speak the same language. I still say there is a book or a website that tells them step by step what to do.

I don't come to this site much anymore , still too heart breaking. But the vets know what they are talking about they can pick them from the 1st post. I'm sorry I know you want to think the best of your H, but it is also time to stop being in denial.
Get ahold of that phone it will tell you all of his secrets I promise you



MIDLIFE for Dummies

Welcome to the wonderful world of Mid Life Crisis!! You are about to embark on one of the most perilous journey's you have ever taken. A journey fraught with intrigue and guaranteed to turn you inside out! This book is designed to help you make sure you get the most emotional bang for your buck. In these pages are the "how to" answers to the questions you have been asking yourself about damaging as many people as you can along the way. Come on and dig in, it's time to get this Roller coaster rolling on down the tracks!!

Chapter 1
Choosing the correct speech

There are 4 basic speeches for you to choose from. They are:

a) I love you but I don't know if I'm in love with you.

b) I've never loved you, and we should never have gotten married.

c) We got married to young. I never knew anything besides you.

d) You tricked me into marrying you, I would never have done it otherwise.

Once you have decided on which speech to give, you need to cause as much anxiety in your spouse as you can before you actually give it. Continue to the next chapter for Lessons in building anxiety.

Chapter 2
Lessons in building anxiety

You will find these lessons to be helpful in causing anxiety in your spouse and others (depending on the level of pain and damage you want to cause), not just prior to giving the speech, but throughout your MLC.

Lesson 1
Monstrification of your Spouse

This is easy to accomplish. Simply think of only the "bad" things that your spouse has done throughout your entire relationship. Have one of those "angel" spouses? No problem, just remember how bad she always makes you feel. DO NOT under any circumstances remember fondly your spouse, or anything they have done for you. Remember, they are going to be the cause of all of your problems, so it is imperative that you convince your self of this first.

Lesson 2
Emotional Detachment

This will be very easy to do after accomplishing lesson 1. All you have to do is start reminding yourself that you don't care about them, what they feel, what they want, or if they hurt. Simple! Every time you remind yourself of this, you will get further and further away from your relationship emotionally. Now, that wasn't too hard was it? On to lesson 3

Lesson 3
Mass confusion and Indecision

This lesson requires a little more thought and attention. You must constantly practice saying "I don't know" to ANY and ALL questions. That is imperative!! Your spouse (and others) must never know precisely what is going on in-side your head. Also, never let them know where you are going, where you have been, who you were with (this will go hand in hand with the lesson on the Other Person, or OP), or whether or not they can expect you to return home.

Lesson 4
Lies and Deceit

To get the most damage, and cause the most pain, you must lie and decieve at every opportunity. And to really achieve hall of fame status, you should be very inept at it, so that everyone knows that you are lying, or suspects, but can't prove it initially. This works very well for the following chapters, OP and Cake Eating.

Chapter 3
The Other Person (or OP)

Now it is time for you to succumb to temptation. You KNOW all of those other women/men want you! They have been coming on to you for years!! It is time for you to give them their chance at having some of you. Make sure that you leave a very confusing trail for your spouse to follow. One that lets them suspect, but have to dig and sneak (to make them feel worse about themselves) to find the information they need to prove it. Hold out admitting the affair as long as you can, and don't admit it ever, if you can get away with it.

Chapter 4
Cake Eating

This chapter is designed to string your spouse along in uncertainty as long as possible, because as long as they have hope, they won't be able to go out and find their own lives and be fulfilled. Why should they get to do that, while you are so miserable? They shouldn't!! So, make sure that you are affectionate occasionally (not too often, as this will raise anxiety levels), that you drag your feet about making a decision on the marriage, and that you leave and come back several times (as many as you can get away with).

Chapter 5
History Revision

It is very important that you revise the life you have lead with your spouse. You must use words like: Always, Ever, Never and All of the Time. Always precede the statement with the terms: you, I, and we. As in "you always nag me" "I never ever (double bonus here) get to do what I want" and "We have to do what you want all of the time". This will help to make your spouse feel like the way you are behaving is all their fault, and can cause them to feel even worse about themselves than they already did!!

Chapter 6
It's all about you!!

Remember this is all about you! What you want and need, RIGHT NOW! You shouldn't have to wait until you can afford something, just go on out and get it! You deserve a new haircut, new clothes, and some new toys. You've worked for it. You would probably look great in that new Convertible, or on that new Harley!! So don't hesitate! You live in the here and now! So why wait until tomorrow!!

Remember, the word is CRISIS and if you are in one, EVERYONE else should have to ride the Roller coaster with you! It's no fun taking a ride alone, and you know what they say about misery loving company! Go on out there and get started, so much pain and damage, and so little time!

Chapter 7
Avoid, Ignore, and Run Away

This chapter is to help you deal with the problems that your spouse will try to cause. We don't want you to have to "deal" with anything, now do we? You shouldn't have to "think" about any "issues" right now, except those that concern you "feeling good". The best way to handle this, is to Avoid, Ignore, and Run Away. Any time someone tries to make you see a more "reasonable" stance on a subject, simply Avoid making a reply...stare out into space, as if you are thinking about something important, and they will become uncomfortable and leave you alone. If there are responsibilities that need your attention, simply ignore them. You don't have to do anything you don't feel like doing. And the best for last is Run Away! This can be accomplished in many different ways. OP's can help you Run Away from all of these "problems" as well as Alcohol, Drugs, New Sports Cars....etc the list is endless. Of course, you can always just leave...but remember not to let them know where you are going, and if you'll be back!!

Chapter 8
MC and Therapists:

Your spouse may ask you to go to counseling with her/him. This is only useful to make them feel better. It cannot possibly have anything to you so there is no reason for you to follow-up with anything suggested--it doesn't matter to you. The only thing you should look for is more reasons (excuses) for avoiding, running and ignoring (see previous chapter).

Chapter 9
I Don't have to if I Don't Want to and You Can't Make Me!

Remember that this is about YOU, and what YOU want and how YOU feel!! No one else is important, so don't let them make you feel as if you have to listen to anything they say. Your spouse will try to help you of course, because they love you. Don't let them get away with giving you unwanted advice. Let them know in the teenage vernacular, that they can't make you do anything. This is important, you must be as childish as possible!! Any truly adult behavior on your part will only convince them that you are listening to what they are saying, and you will have to start back at the beginning. Of course, this technique can be used knowingly to cause more confusion and chaos, just beware of the danger, you don't actually want to start acting like an adult!!


Chapter 10
"How to threaten" and/or "How do move out".

You threaten to move out for weeks or months but you don't. (*)You tell your spouse that you got too much on your plate right now to look for a flat but that you will do so in 2 weeks time. After 2 weeks, repeat from (*).

If your wife wants to come too close to you, like entering your bedroom to talk to you, tell her to stay away or you will move out. When she replies that you will move out anyway tell her that you will move out faster if she comes any closer

Chapter 11
Art of Clinging

The Art of Clinging to the End of the Mattress without falling off the matrimonial bed while still sharing it with your spouse.


Chapter 12
Advanced lessons

This is usually reserved for those in more difficult situations, where the LBS has responded not by tossing you out, threatening to leave, or filing for divorce, but instead persists in not only OFFERING to cooperate, but actually MAKING THE CHANGES you said you needed.

"I am tired of living like this/I don't want to live like this anymore/I am not going to live my life like this?" often is coupled with another advanced tactic, "It's not you, it's me".

This line is most effective AFTER the LBS has jumped through hoops and bent over backwards. It basically confirms that no matter what changes the LBS is willing to make, the incompatibility lies within the MLCer, who has no intention of, or implied desire or ability to, compromise.

Appendix

HOW TO MAKE YOUR SPOUSE THINK SHE IS CRAZY

1. When confronted by the evidence of an EA or PA, become very indignant. Stress that the LBS is obviously just a jealous sob/bi*ch, and you are entitled to "buddies" of the opposite sex.

2. Never, ever answer the question, "Are you okay? Is there something wrong?" with a direct answer that might actually lead to a discussion that might help the marriage. Continue to never talk to spouse, never give her/him a personal compliment or touch of affection and by all means work on the "cling to the edge of the mattress to avoid touching" manoeuvre that is so successful in making your spouse crazy.

3. Always bear in mind that your spouse will expect you to want to at least give them the chance to "fix" the marriage. Since you have already checked out emotionally (of course NEVER tell them that!), you are under no obligation to actually listen to anything they say or acknowledge anything they do. This tactic is also extremely beneficial when they employ the MLC diet. When they lose a massive amount of weight and you are in ear shot of someone who mentions to spouse about the weight loss, say "Are you losing weight? Why don't you ever tell me things?"

4. Of course one of the most successful ways to drive them crazy may only be used when you have earned the MLC Black Belt. Go to marriage counselling for months, let them pour out their soul to you and the counsellor and let them believe they are actually accomplishing something. Then arrange things so the spouse finds you in your own home with OP. This will accomplish two things: a. She will finally have to understand how lucky you are to have found your "soul mate" and b. She will be doubly betrayed because she thought you were actually working on the marriage.



DON'T LET YOUR SPOUSE GET TOO INDEPENDENT - STATEGIES FOR SUCKING YOUR SPOUSE BACK IN

1. Make negative comments about OP or the chances that the relationship with OP will succeed. HOWEVER, under no circumstances, make any commitment to end the relationship with OP.

2. Make veiled hints about suicide or excessive drinking or drug use. Be erratic and hard to contact.

3. Do random acts of kindness such as yard work or something. That will keep your spouse confused and hopeful.

4. Make vague comments hinting that things might work out between you and your spouse IN THE FUTURE. HOWEVER, under no circumstances take any actions to work anything out.

CUSTODY
Using the kids to your advantage.

If you have children, they can be extremely useful for inducing fear and panic in your spouse. Recommended phrases include, "You're poisoning my kids against me", "You put that idea into their heads", and "You need to do [insert pertinent action here] for the sake of the kids'." Remember, your spouse, being a responsible and loving person, is not only trying to cope with his/her own feelings, but trying to protect the children, and you can use that to your advantage.

Don't forget to use the fact that if you spend any time with your kids, you should get Extra Credit Bonus Good Parent points from your spouse. It doesn't matter if you feed them ice cream for breakfast and have them watch "Hellboy" when they asked for "Veggie Tales", you Just Wanted To Make Them Happy, and since YOU are the best judge of Happiness, that makes you Super Parent. You can use this opportunity to trash talk your spouse ("Isn't this more fun than what Mommy/Daddy would let you do?" "Mom/Dad doesn't know how to relax.") which of course, will be repeated back to your spouse so you get the benefit of destroying their self-esteem second hand.

Highly advanced MLCers may want to start casually using the word Custody, but be very, very careful. While useful for sending your spouse into a state of panic, you certainly do not want to be responsible for a bunch of kids who will seriously cut into your personal fun time. The word Custody should only be used in a casual tone of voice for the most devastating effect.

BUTTON PUSHING

You (the mlcer) know a lot about your spouse. You know what pushes their buttons to get them both upset and/or happy. You have the power, you can do it! So using the kids to upset them is fair game (see section on how to use "custody" to upset them but not take on the "custody"). And if that ever stops working, find something else. Suggestions might include pets, valuables in the home, their appearance, family, career. Nothing is out of your reach since you have put in so many years getting to know your spouse--use what you know.

THE BLAME GAME

By now, you should be aware that all of this MUST be your spouses fault, however, your spouse may not understand this completely yet, so you need to start planting the seeds.

There are several ingenious ways to put the blame on your spouse, and we will be exploring them all.

Method 1: The Non-Blame Statement

I'm trying not to blame YOU

This statement implies that you are "not putting the blame on them" but on closer look (which your spouse is guaranteed to be doing) The words actually put all of the blame on the spouse (where of course we know it belongs).

Method 2: The Passive Blame Statement

I don't think that I can live with you.
My opinion never mattered to you.
I cant' live like this.
We rarely have fun anymore.
I don't want to live this way anymore.
(There are many more I'm sure you can think of)



These are passive statements that don't actually assign blame to your spouse, but your spouse will definitely get the idea if you use them. They can't help but see that it MUST be them that makes you feel this way.

Method 3: The Direct Blame Statement

You never listen to me.
You never put creases in my pants.
You use bagged salad.
You never keep the house clean.
You are going to do it your way.

All of these are direct statements of blame. You should mix actual faults with things that don't really matter to make it more confusing, and make your spouse feel as bad as possible about themselves.

Your spouse has probably already started doing the hard work to look inside his/herself (Yuck, what an awful thought!) and will take on all of the faults you list to try and correct them. This will keep them occupied for awhile, and you can avoid any serious relationship talks while they apologize for and try to fix all of their own faults. Make sure that you don't actually accept the apology, that way you can continue to bring the fault up which will slow down their self improvement process. Remember, they are working on becoming better human beings, and you wouldn't want that to happen to fast, as that would interfere with your ability to string them along.

Note: NEVER ACTUALLY ADMIT TO ANY FAULTS OF YOUR OWN!!!! REMEMBER, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY! YOU ARE THE GOOD ONE, AND HAD THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN AFFAIR, LIE, SPEND MONEY, OR ANY OTHER THING, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ARE BAD!!!

let's not forget "We're just incompatible - we always were."

Also, when the LBS starts to make changes, make SURE you find fault with these changes, or point out how it's "too little, too late", or wasn't what you meant AT ALL. If all else fails, put the LBS down for being so willing to change herself for your needs. Also, when the LBS starts to make changes, make SURE you find fault with these changes, or point out how it's "too little, too late", or wasn't what you meant AT ALL."


How to keep you spouse guessing...be mean one minute threatening divorce, etc then next day be kind and sweet almost the way your spouse remembers you..rinse repeat....


HOW TO CONTINUE THE CRAZINESS ONCE SEPARATION/DIVORCE IS AGREED UPON

1. Even though by now you, dear MLCer, have done everything human possibly to convince your spouse that you do not love him/her and want out, when the time comes to actually file, DON"T DO IT! This is the coup de gras of MLC. Absolutely DO NOT TAKE THE INITIATIVE. This is a most vital and awesome crazy-maker. Holding out will force your by now totally devastated spouse to finally throw up his/her hands and seek legal counsel.

2. Once the LBS has had enough and decides that divorce is in their best interest, you have won HUGE points here. Refusing to be the one to file now puts YOU in the role of victim, bringing you all the attention and pity necessary to allow you to again regain your image of the abused one in all this. Now you can, with absolutely NO guilt, tell everyone the divorce was your LBS's idea (which of COURSE it was!) and they will assume that: a. the LBS lost all that weight and obviously has been involved in an affair, and b. the marriage ended because your LBS spouse is going through a - YES! THE PINNACLE OF CRAZINESS! - Midlife Crisis!!

Caracal,

It seems as though we have had very similar experiences. My husband and I have been together for 24 years and married going on 16 years; he will be 40 and I am 41, and we have no children. I thought that we had a wonderful marriage although I had been working on my Master's degree for the past year and a half and did not spend the time with him that I should have. The week after I graduated last month, he told me that he was no longer in love with me and that he had been unhappy for many years, but he never indicated his feelings to me in any way.

I couldn't have been more shocked about this revelation because he has always been a wonderful and loving husband who went out of his way to take care of me including making sure that there was gas in my car, and packing my lunch, (both of which I never asked him to do) and we exchanged hugs, kisses, and "I love you's" on a daily basis. I sang his praises and acknowledged to everyone how blessed I have been all these years. All of my relatives and friends are shocked about this as well as his parents, with whom I am extremely close. They feel that he is going through a mid-life crisis due to stress at work.

As in your situation, he says that there is no one else, and I believe him. His reasons are very vague and include my "lack of attention and affection", my "inability to take care of myself," and my "inability to have my own life."

For several weeks it seemed that things were going well between us, including accepting daily hugs and kisses that I initiated. I had hoped that he would agree to marriage counseling, but when I brought the subject up two days ago he told me that it is too late and that he does not want to work things out, and that there is nothing I can say or do to change this. He says that he still cares about me and wants the best for me, but that he is no longer in love with me and that he has to leave.

Out of desperation I have resorted to begging and pleading with him to reconsider and to please give me a chance to make things right. I wish I had known about Marriage Builders sooner; I just found this website tonight.

Because of my own experience, I can completely understand how you didn't see your situation coming. Although it's true that in many relationships there are obvious warning signs of problems, I am living proof that the signs aren't always there, especially if one spouse is trying to pretend that everything is ok. Don't let the other posters convince you that you should have recognized the signs or that your husband must be having an affair.

I hope that you and your husband are able to work things out, and that you continue to provide updates. I wish you the best of luck!

Wow Jahart, it is in some strange way reassuring to know I am not the only one in this situation. However, I have taken on board that there are too many people both on this site (with experience of the signs) and people I know that have raised the question "is he having an affair?" for me to ignore it any longer. Although all that know us are stunned and say he was too "doting" and "a gentleman" to have an affair, my doubts are raised and I need to be sure. So I hope to hire a PI to answer this question without a doubt so I can decide my next move, although am concerned over the potential cost. I have also posted a query on the operation investigate forum about recommendations for private investigators in the UK as I am really out of my depth with this and don't want to fritter money on a charlaton. If it is an affair I want to cut contact until the affair is over, although if no affair I want to be as supportive of his crisis as possible. If it is an affair I will seek as much guidance from this site as I can.

An update on my situation in case anyone has advice... I am still a mess, and actually starting to scare myself with my thoughts and obsessive round and round in circles thinking.

Three weeks ago my husband came to meet me at my request, and we spent a long day discussing where we were at and why we had reached here. Although he can give reasons why he has been so unahppy, theey do not seem unsolveable in my eyes, though I accept his perception is different. He began to cry for "how did we let it get to this" and we were consoling each other and listening. He left to go off to a friend's house for a few days, and based on what he had said about his feelings, I went and got a card to apologise for letting him down and a gift (that was quite expensive) but very meaningful in supporting his need to become more independent financially and educationally. I explained there were no strings attached to this, I just wanted to recognise where he was at. I left this at his sister's.

Four days later he returned from his male friend and text me to ask to meet. We agreed to meet the following day, and meanwhile I learnt that my mother had met him when he was delivering furniture to the house and offloaded a lot of her own feelings, disappointment and anger. We went out for a meal, and to cut a long story short, he admitted he was still very confused about what he wanted, but that he was "no longer a brick wall". I immediately burst into tears, and he himself was cholking up, so we left the restaurant and went for a drive that ended with us getting pretty intimate in the car (though no sex). He invited this verbally although I physically initiated it. He was giving complimtents, saying he "felt a spark" although still saying he felt so pressured by family that he needed some time to think things through. I pulled back from taking it further as I didn't want to pressure him and he agreed with this, that we needed to think things through. He made clear this was not "goodbye sex" mentality, and that we needed to be sure of where this was heading.

The following day he asked me to meet him at our storage container to go through it and give him a lift home. We spent a few hours just chit chatting as we sifted through stuff, and on the drive home he invited me to his sister's b'day that night. I asked why he was inviting me, he said so I could see the nephews. Not satisfied with this, I stressed he needed to want me to go as I could visit the nephews anytime, he agreed he would like me there in a very non-comittal way. So off we went, to an extremely difficult situation where I began to get very upset as I started to question if this was my goodbye to his family who play a big role in my life. He recognised this and we left early, with him asking why I was upset. Whereas prior to this I would have bottled it up so as not to worry him, I am trying to communicate much better and I explained I felt such a loss of his family, of him, of our future and the future children I had thought we would have together.

The following day he text me to say he was sad to see me so upset but could understand why I was and I should not feel bad for this. He said he would love to catch up the following morning, the day of his flight back overseas. He actually left an uncles to drive an hour in order for me to get that text and reply so that I would meet him as he had no service where he was. So the morning of his depature we met for breakfast, and he indicated I was "slowly taking down the wall brick by brick" and that he was still very confused. We chatted and went for a walk, where I again (possibly unfairly?) again became physically affectionate. He reciprocated and I now really dobut that he is not sexually attracted to me as he originally said he was. I asked how he was getting to the airport and although he had planned to take the train he accepted my offer to drive him (we are located rurally) providing he could pay for the hotel so I did not have to drive home in the dark and upset after he left. So we spent the drive down to the airport with him talking about his life dreams and asking me questions such as "if we get back together would you want children, where would we live" etc. Largely we both wanted the same things, with both of us agreeing we really wanted kids now. The whole day was full of touching that he was often initiating, kissing, hugging. I asked if he wanted me to stop contact once he was back in the UK, he said that if I was "passionate about something then I should fight for it". At one point we thought his flight was cancelled and he even said that he would not mind as at least he would have extra time with me and maybe he booked the return flight too soon. But he still got on the plane.

Since then, he text me to say he was okay and to check I got home safely. He rang once at my request a week after arriving and bang, it was back to square one, it is over, his feelings won't change, I should get the point, move one, etc. When I explained I was so confused because of the four days before he left giving me some hope, he actually blamed me for misinterpreting, said he has just succombed to my and his family's pressure and it was not what he actually wanted. He said he needed "space" and then changed slightly to "time" but all of this is so non-comimitall which I have read from other posters is a sign of him stringing me on. I reacted badly, kept calm but said I was hurt and disappointed he was not the man I thought he was, he became very angry, shouting "well hate me then, I'm a bad person", etc. I just backed off, saying he is not a bad person, he is good but doing somthing very bad and I was not sure what I would do, if I would stay in contact or not as I was his wife and not prepared to simply be a friend. He said he had my number and could contact if he changed his mind to see if I was still ready to give another chance, as although he would "never reject a call" from" me he also questioned if it was beneficial to be in contact as I was reading too much into his words and actions. And the conversation ended at that point. Neither of us has contacted the other for the past week.

I don't know where to take this now, but realise I need to answer doubts in my head about possibility of his having an affair. Sorry for the long post, but it helps to vent. And Jahart, I hope you work things out with your husband,and thank you so much for your input into this as it means I am not the only one who believes my husband is not having an affiar even though I now feel I need to take steps to be 100% sure of this.

jahart, welcome to Marriage Builders! Might I suggest you start a post of your own and look and listen to the advice you will be given? If a marriage can be saved, this site will do it. If the folks listen and follow the advice from the vets.

These folks here are spot on when it comes to sniffing out affairs, when MelodyLane says there is one, there is one. I used to think like you do, but I have to say I have the deepest respects for ML, she has more than earned that respect, and she's darn good. As are so many others.

I've yet to find a post where she has been mistaken on that.

Telling Caracal not to let the others tell her that her husband is having an affair goes against everything I have learned here. No, most wives, won't recogonize the signs when they believe they are in a happy marriage. It's hindsight that sees those signs. It's the impartial folks here that see far more than those in the middle of the emotional mess that brings them here.

Please read up as much as you can here, starting with the yellow box with red border to your right "Most Popular Links". Buy the books, HNHN and FILSIL and LB's and read them cover to cover. Start living what you are reading.

You will see

Caracal, I've read thru your thread. This line screams at me:

"he said that if I was "passionate about something then I should fight for it"."

I will admit I'm totally confused here.

So why aren't you fighting for your marriage? I'm confused as to why you were not in a whopper of a Plan A while you had your hubby in the area. I understand also the posters who have said don't be buddy buddy unless he wants to talk about the marriage and getting back together.

They are the two extremes at this point, and you are smack dab in the middle. Not really pushing to show you want to improve the marriage, and not saying no to 'friends'. Can you seriously want to be friends with someone who drops a marriage like that? That is playing you like a fiddle? Really?
I believe from what has been said, that your hubby is either having an EA or PA, OR that he is 'freeing' himself TO have one, either eay, it's on his mind and when the seed is planted.....Read what 8thgrader posted, that's so very much what is happening here!


This line also bothers me:


Say WHAT??? MORE independent? Sorry, marriages are not supposed to be independent, they are supposed to be INTERdependent. I'm almost afraid to ask what the 'gift' was, but ask I am.

Either way, I'm curious as to why it wasn't advised (or if I missed it) that you weren't in a Plan A prior to him leaving.

Wishing you the best of luck, and as for the round and round circle thinking, that is totally normal. Don't let it scare you.

ps. whatever happens, please, PLEASE do not bring children into this marriage until it is recovered, not just starting, and not as a way to hold on. Don't do that to a child.

8thgraders, I read your post and many of the things mentioned seem to be written by my husband. Thanks. Can't get hold of his UK phone, but have checked the Australian one and nothing suspicious. But then he would keep it all on the UK for cheaper rates and if there is an affair, knowing I can't access it. Really wanting to get a PI on the job, but googling it is not really getting me anywhere as I read that the industry is not regulated and many just ask the husband for a bribe to give the all clear report... this is not what I want, I want to know the truth either way. I figure after 18 years I deserve at least that. If Melody Lane is reading this, I may be slow on the uptake, but your advice has finally started to sink in, and please give me some suggestions on how to get a PI on the case... I hope to get this done by the weekend as this would be the best time to follow him.

No Stress, in response to some of your comments. I am not, definitely not, looking at having a child at the moment, this would be too selfish and also impossible given I think you need to be in the same country to conceive... at least I can still joke! I referred to this as just more oddness that we want the same things but he is taking steps away from it, not working towards it. Again pointing to an affair.

After reading your comments I spent two hours sobbing, I feel I am failing miserably at any attempt I make to reconcile. I know this was not your intention, and I need the feedback. I don't really understand the Plan A concept maybe, especially as I am yet to get evidence of an affair, just suspicions. Until I get evidence how do I operate Plan A? My confusion and floundering has not been helped as I have a female friend who five years ago got involved in an EA although she made the decision not to pursue this to physical. She reconciled with her husband after five months as he maintained contact and was supportive of her throughout, although to her credit she was honest with him and their families. I am not in this position.

The gift I gave was a laptop as I took ours and my hubby complained that I had never encouraged him to develop his computer skills and he was frustrated with himself for not being able to do internet banking, etc, as I had taken responsibility for this. In hindsight I wish I had installed a keylogger on it before giving it, oh well, live and learn to be more cynical...

My indecision and uncertainties, and plummeting self-esteem are driving me insane. Please help me with Plan A!!!

Also, he contacted me last night, I kept it very short, asking why he was ringing, apparently to thank me for transferring fund into his account from mutual shares I sold. He sounded miserable, I was upbeat, although maybe this is wrong as it excuses him from his guilt if he thinks I am coping? I need a step by step guide. And which books should I order? LB' and HNHN?

jahart, I am sorry this is happening to you, but it is very likely he is having an affair. Just ask yourself why your husband wouldn't be willing to go to counseling and turn it around? Can you think of any valid reason other than the fact that he doesn't want to turn it around? Unless there is an affair, that just makes no sense. The conditions in your marriage that you describe [working on your Masters] are the kind of conditions that lead to affairs. The fact that you asked him and he said no is not convincing at all since we wouldn't expect a cheater to say yes. They never do.

Asking someone who is cheating if they are cheating will avail you exactly nothing because they don't admit it. The goal is to quietly slip out of the marriage with no fanfare, usually blaming the other spouse with vague complaints. So asking will get you nowhere.

At the very least, you should investigate it and rule it out. I predict you will find an affair, I am sorry to say.


No, you are living proof of a spouse who does not know the signs and has never investigated. A spouse who wants to believe her husband is not having an affair.

Caracal, here is what is happening. When he gets time alone with you, the spark starts coming back. But when he is AWAY from you with the OW, he shuts you down. He is compartmentalizing his relationships. This is EXACLTY what I would expect to see if he were having an affair.

But I want to APPLAUD you for doing a darn good Plan A. You have left a wonderful taste in his mouthn by doing a superb job of meeting his needs when you are with him. You are doing super!!

This gives me great hope and I will tell you why. His affair is doomed. 95% of affairs crumble within 2 years because of the very reasons that made them possible, thoughtlessness, deceit, selfishness. Those traits will find their way into the affair and it will eventually kill the affair. Your marriage is much more likely to last, though. The odds are on you.

But you can effect the crumbling of the affair if you bring it out into the open. I will finish reading your posts and comment on them. Wanted to add that jahart's own H is likely also in an affair which renders her opinion on your situation somewhat suspect. The folks who are telling you there is an affair are people who have experience with this AND have actually saved their marriages. She cannot make the same claim.

Oh nonononoo, you are doing good!!! You expressed your heartbreak when you declined to go see his nephews, so you are telling him how hurtful his actions are. At the same time you are focusing on being ATTRACTIVE. And it is working!! This is why he is confused. See, he needed you to act the SHREW so he would feel justified in his actions. But since you didn't do that, he is confused. That is GOOD.

Caracal, is he in Australia or the UK? One way we find PIs here through PINOW which is an association of accredited PI's. They do have international PIs on their list: http://www.pinow.com/international/

Another way we have found good PIs is to call the local police station and ask for a reference. Sometimes they know of good PIs since many are former cops.

Thanks for your encouragement Melody Lane, I am needing it. He is in UK, I am in Australia. I now feel trapped between a rock and a hard place. The PI's I have contacted are not really giving me much hope of getting an answer. Anyone reputable has indicated that without access to the estate and with no way of knowing when he will be going out, the cost could skyrocket into days of surveillance waiting for him to leave. I simply can't afford that, although I am definitely ready to pay for two slots of surveillance if it gives me a definite answer either way. They can not access his mobile phone, bug his home, etc, and PI's have actually suggested that if there is an affair it is likely with a colleague and therefore it will play out behind the gates. My only way forward is to contact him to fish for plans (which he is unlikely to give as he is very defensive when I ask about mutual friends even). Or I contact the mutual friends whose loyalty is likely to lie with him as he is there and their colleague and they have only heard his side of the story. Is this too risky? Or contact his family to see if they can probe if and when he may be going out? Any other ideas?

Also, I have not initiated contact with him since his arriving in London to tell me it is now over. Having revisited the Plan A and Plan B info, I realise I have sort of moved into Plan B in an effort to protect myself from pain but this is probably not right given I do not have any evidence and have not explained this to him. Should I revert to Plan A until (or if?) I get evidence to prove affair / no affair? My worry is that he has clearly indicated "it is over, you need to give me space" so I don't want to appear to be making selfish demands by "pressuring" him as he keeps saying this is what I and his family are doing. Arghhh, as you can see, I need your expertise!

Caracal, his request for "space" is not reasonable and should not be observed. It is not in the best interest of your marriage since it's purpose is to facilitate an affair.

I don't have any answers for you except maybe going there and surprising him with a visit.

Caracal, big to you, I'm sorry my post made you cry and doubt your actions, I truly am! I said I was confused, and this shows I really am confused, I've read ML's answers, and they make sense when I look at it from her viewpoint and how she answered.

I've been out of town for the last few days without much access to the internet, so did not see this till tonight.

Thanks for clearing that up about the baby, I went back and read it again, and can look at it differently now, and yes, you are correct, you do kind of need to be on the same continent Although, with science the way it is now, I'm not really positive on those pesky birds and bees anymore. It's getting to be more like butterflies and test tubes or something. Keep your sense of humor, it's the only thing that saved me from so many really bad years. It did scare me as there are so many women out there who would and do, go that route hoping to keep their husbands. It's sad to see when it happens that way.

I've re-read several posts, and the ones especially on page 2 of this thread are where I got the impression of being in the middle of Plan A and 'friends'. This line as well, there were two that I recall where you guys got pretty frisky, and you pulled back:


Plan A as I understand it (someone correct me if I'm wrong here please!) is to pretty much give everything you have to fulfilling the other spouses top needs, (usually SF, RC, Conversation and affection) while not having any AO, DJ's and IB mixed in, then go cold turkey per say into a Plan B. The SF is where I thought you might have been holding back (and I can understand why you might). That way, when apart, the other spouse has a taste of what "could be" fresh in their minds. Yes, I understand it to be for use when the other spouse has an affair, but with your situation of his going overseas, (and the suspicion of an affair) it seemed like a given that it was a perfect opportunity for a full blown Plan A.

Thanks for telling what the gift was. This might be interesting to you, when I met my stbxh, he was the computer geek, and the only computer (and geek) I'd seen was some 20 years earlier. Stbxh was the hardware kind of geek (to this day the guts scare the beegeebees out of me) and knew DOS well (but did not continue keeping up so much with windows), but when it came to programs and understanding Windows and figuring things out, I was far better in the end, thanks to him. He used to literally push me out of the chair when I'd ask how to do something, (talk about a LB on his part there, especially the day I hit the floor he pushed so hard) and I'm a hands on learner, tell me or show me till you are blue in the face, until I physically do something, it never clicks, after ticking me off so much getting pushed out of the chair, I quit asking 'how' and started reading 'Help'. His mistake there, "Help" got me to where I could crack his computer a few years back. After that he was far more careful, but his laziness at the end gave me some really good 'goods' on him to show the judge in our custody battle. (good as in make me when I found it) I began thinking, what's the worse thing I could do? Crash the computer? "Back up, play around and figure it out" was my new motto. I never did crash mine, he crashed his all the time, and not always on purpose.

Your husband's complaint that you never encouraged his computer skills reminded me of what I ended up doing. Your husband hadn't reached my frustration level, or he might have done what I did, it was pure frustration with a touch of anger, that I ended up learning as much as I did. Just wish I'd of thought about keyloggers.

Don't worry about hindsight, it's always 20/20, I have got darn near perfect "hindsight" vision these days. I had to choose not to let it eat me up.


The indecision, uncertainties and self esteem I know well, I fought those far too long myself. I think we all do when faced with the 'work at it or let it go' choice. When I finally made the 'decision' both times (twice married), it was with the knowledge of multiple affairs, and yet, it was still the hardest decision I've made, to walk away. Only you will know when the time comes and that decision is made. Once made and the self doubt goes away, the recovery is much faster and easier than it is with indecision hanging around. For me it's been an unbelievably good ride to where I am today. The self esteem, that's a doozy, it can take a hard hit without even realizing how hard until it's shot to heck.


His miserable to your upbeat sounds good to me! Again, I'm confused still in many ways, but I'm seeing this as it shows he's missing you and shows him you are ok alone, since this would be, in my mind, Plan B, again, someone correct me if I'm wrong! As I understand Plan B, the only talk should be if he's willing to work on getting back together. Not a 'friends' kind of talk. As ML asked, is there a way to make a surprise visit? That might be one way to find out if there is an affair or not, or get the marriage back on track.

Books. My stbxh and I bought all of the books at one time, back in 2002, and I ended up giving them to my older daughter when I left, a move I regret now, she never looked at them, and I believe she tossed them, when her and her bf broke up. I'm finding a lot of this information has not only helped me see where my part was in the breakdown of my two marriages, (not that there will be a third to use what I'm learning), but it is helping me IMMENSELY in how I relate to everyone around me, my kids, my friends, everyone, and also, how they relate to me. I recogonize the AO's, DJ's and IB in those relationships. I'm learning an amazing amount of stuff here. Needless to say, I recommend all the books Just a lot of good stuff in them.

This has gotten very long, I'm sorry about that, I do tend to write books I'll be watching your thread to see how things work out, I wish you the best and my thoughts are with you.

((( hugs )))

I tried to catch up a little. PI's sorry don't know nothing about.

And yep you will have guilt you should have seen it coming,I still do most days

But from this day forward as painful as it is read everything you can on this forum. Especially on affairs the vets can tell you play by play what your H is going to do or why he is doing what he is.

I too at 1st thought they were trying to shove an affair down my throat. That my H was not like that. But once I got used to the idea & many red flags were pointed out to me & I stopped being in denial.

They taught me some things that my H or myself never thought I had the b*lls to do.They also gave me the strength to fight for my marriage & not roll over & die. Which is the most important part.

Listen to them .... once you stop catering to " his I need space", I love you , but I'm not in love with you & get with the program to fight it you will see an amazing difference.

I will tell you right now it will not be easy & some days you just want to say wtf but each day you get up fighting some more.

I haven't won my battle yet but I am still fighting


(((( hugs )))

Thanks ML, I am now considering this. I also read one of your posts about moving back in to the home but without kids I don't thinks I would have much chance of this and worry police would be called to remove me as it is his employer's property. I actually have a job offer back in UK and thought I could always go back and work for a few months in an effort to try to salvage relationship. I suggested this to husband on our first phone call after his return, and he was very quick to say it would be pointless as he does not want to reconcile and it is over. My worry is I would have nowhere to live initially other then hotel until I sorted something and absolutely no support whereas here I have so much... And his response is an unknown, do I have the courage to go through having a door slammed in my face? I know only I can answer that, and I am thinking about it.

I can't thank you enough for your support.

If you can legally move back to that home, I would strongly suggest you do that. That is for 2 reasons. The first is that you cant save a marriage if you aren't there and you can't bust up his affair if you arent there. Say you were able to get the goods now, it wouldn't help you much if you don't live together. You can't ever recover the marriage if you don't live together.

Could the police remove you from the MARITAL HOME? And if you do this, I would certainly NOT give him any warning. I half suspect when you arrive you might find him living with someone else, though. I would have a plan B in place if that is the case.

In the US, there is no way the police would remove you from that home without cause since you are his wife. That is considered the marital home.

And DON'T count on an attorney to give you an answer to this. They are only interested in the path of least resistence. I would ask the police - in another city!

Caracal, the friend part of it is where I went wrong the first year after separation with my stbxwh. The only way to heal is without contact. I tried the 'friendly divorce' route and it blew up in my face. It's been close to 7 months where the only words exchanged between my stbxwh and I have been basically three heated exchanges about custody of our daughter in the last couple weeks or so. Our divorce is turning ugly fast.

The thought of talking to him about his day or the weather makes my skin crawl at this point. No, we will never be 'friends' again. I don't hate him, but neither do I like him.

It wasn't until I refused to talk to him at all, that I was able to really start to heal. Since you are still trying and have the different continents to deal with, I honestly don't have a clue what to say.

Same thing about the books, I doubt they would be well received to be honest from what I am reading.

I definitely wish you the best in whatever road you choose to take. I'll keep an eye out here to see how you are doing.

Well, you were all right, you are experts in spotting an affair. I just spoke with a friend not five minutes ago, who was too honest to be able to lie but also did not want to breach my husband's trust. But he did not deny there is an affair going on, and also other lies about who he has been going out with. I am in shock, am furious to think that my husband has been blaming me for all of the reasons our marriage failed and taking no responsibility himself! But I need more evidence to expose this affair, right now I don't even know who it is with although friend heavily indicated it was with someone on estate. I asked friend if he could give me any info so I could hire PI, but he was very reluctant to get further involved and to be fair I am so grateful for what little he did say. So how can I get my evidence??? Friend said it would be very hard to get PI on case so I think most of it is going on on estate. Do I dare to show up announced? I knowonly I can answer this. I just can't believe it...

Cara,

I think it is likely the friend that talked to you will also tell your husband that you are starting to suspect something is going on. If you want to save your marriage, my advice would be to hop a plane for a visit as soon as possible. Surprise him - the sooner, the better. Find out exactly who and what you are dealing with.

Regarding moving, it is very tough to recover a marriage when not living in the same location. In my case, it took three months for my husband to leave his work site and return home. Upon discovery, my H nearly had me convinced that he should continue working where he was and that he and OW would only have professional contact. Thankfully, I was reading heavily MB materials and how to break up an affair. It was still very tough to get the marriage back on track, but I think it would have been impossible if we had still been living in two different cities.

AM

I realise this, but just don't know if I have it in me to fight now... guess I am shell shocked. Am going to post our conversation in the coming minutes, it may help me sort through thoughts in my head. I think it will be some sleeping tablets tonight!

Okay, so I have discovered from friend the strong likelihood of affair although no details about it other then hints it is happening on estate with colleague. Friend also advised that a night out that hubby had said was only with this friend and his wife involved a female colleague who I have not met (she works on seperate part of estate). Why should hubby lie if there is nothing to hide? Mmmmm... Friend advised me to ring his wife who may not feel so conflicted about divulging information, I have tried but so far no luck. Have text her to ask as after 18 years of relationship I feel I have a right to truth. Who knows how she will respond?

So husband rings, right after this conversation. Whilst we were talking his work phone rang and I suspect this may have been friend trying to clue him in so armymama is probably right about that. I lost it with husband, although respect the friend too much to divulge what he implied. Instead I pretty much used every LB; SD (I feel you need to return to Australia to work on our marriage, etc), DJ (What sort of person are you to do this to someone you have shared your life with?), AO (I actually hung up on him at one point and he rang back), Dishonesty (I received some bad news today which is why I am upset)although I think I may have avoided annoying habit and IB. I am ashamed to admit it and so deeply regret one of my SD's was implied threat of suicide. As soon as I said it I regretted it, and apologised as I know this is not the right way to deal with things, is sooo manipulative and it is not something I would ever want to put my family through, but I am not thiking 100% rationally at the moment. He was rightly furious about that, at least he recognises that this is not typical of my behaviour. I promised him that I would not act silly as I do feel guilty that he may be over there worrying about me, that is not fair on anyone, especially him as he recently lost a family member to suicide so I was definitely button pushing. My wonderful friend who has recovered from having an EA said her husband also threatened this at one point, so I do not feel like I am the only one who can behave badly and can only move on from it and not repeat it.

Anyway, hubby remained adamant it was over, was only ringing as he just got my voicemail from two days ago. The sad thing is that my voicemail was to check he was okay as I have been worried about his mental health having heard from his family that he is bottling things up, not talking to anyone and acting out of character. I really pressed him on telling the truth, stating I feel he has and still is being dishonest about things, has given mixed messages, etc, but it got me nowhere At one point he did say that he was going to enjoy his freedom after I questioned him on whether he had any inappropriate feelings for someone else, but he quickly reigned that back in and was all about denial, denial, denial, there is noone else, I am not going to rush into sex or relationship. etc so much so that I started to doubt affair again as I have so little evidence. But I am not that stupid or naive anymore. I expressed all of my suspicions based on what my friend who has had EA told me, and said I recognise the signs, but it got me nowhere, and I know with hindsight I should not have said anything but too late now. I did manage to get out that I still want to salvage our relationship and believe we still have a lot of potential, but it is falling on deaf ears as he is too caught up in deceit and the OW.

I really am feeling there is nothing left to salvage, between the two of us we have destroyed the relationship, which is what he told me as well. And to go over for a suprise visit with no support, and being in a new job here... I just don't know. He says he is happy, should I just give up? Armymama, how did you perservere?

Well, what do you want to do? If you decide to divorce him and stay where you have a job and support, no one would fault you. You don't have children and you are still young. Dr. Harley has always said that if he found his wife in an affair, he would never speak with her again. Of course, he has never had to deal with an affair in his own marriage. I had always said that I would divorce my husband if he ever had an affair. That's not what I did though.

If you decide you want to try to recover the marriage, the advice is the same as above. Find out who/what you are dealing with. Expose the affair to those that can exert influence to end it - his/her workplace, his/her family and friends. His denials indicate that he knows he is doing something wrong. His bringing OW on a date with your friends shows that he is not all that ashamed.

Stop lovebusting over the phone. It just gives your H increased justification in his own mind to carry-on with his affair.

How did I persevere? One day at a time. Lots of reading here and application of what I read. Often imperfect application.


AM

I agree with everything armymama said. No one would fault you for walking away.

Caracal, a couple of things stand out to me.

I would call this friend's wife and get as much information from her as possible. Find out the OW's name. Your H's friend who is teasing you with half the information is an as*hole and a coward. You deserve to know this information and he is withholding it from you. Any decent person would tell you.

I would try and find out who the OW is and expose the affair. Even contact her.

Your H seems to be under the impression that adultery is not adultery if he says "it is over" and if you are separated. Married is married and he is committing adultery.

Secondly, please do not beat up yourself for your strong reaction. An affair is as traumatic as rape, physical assualt or the death of a child. When people are raped they sometimes lash at their rapist. Wouldn't that be a normal reaction? So please give yourself a break! This is probably the worst thing that has happened to you.

Cara,

Mel is right. Actually, she is almost always right about everything regarding MB and surviving an affair. An affair is very traumatic and is the worst thing that has ever happened in my life. And I had a strong reaction as well. At one point, I called my H a "gaslighting POS" and hung up the phone on him. I had never called him anything like that in our previous 26 years of marriage. I didn't mean to suggest in my previous post that you are not justified in your reaction.

Hopefully, friend's wife will fill you in soon.

AM

Caracel, armymama is absolutely right about this. While we understand why you would lash out, it does not help you one bit. It just gives him justification to carry on the affair. Come and vent to US instead of him.

Seriously, thank you for your support at this time. As you can tell, it is a sleepless night for me even with sleeping tablets, 3:30am here. I am still undecided about what to do, but if I do go over to try to bust affair open, how do you suggest I go about it... front up for two weeks to gather evidence, expose and then ask for him to return to Australia to work on relationship... when refused (which I believe I would be given his affair can continue relatively unhindered by family remaining back in Australia) launch Plan B of no contact?

Spoke with friends wife and even less information... she indicated she did not know what was going on, but when I asked who went out with her and husband on night out before our seperation she said she could not even answer if anyone did go out and that was something I should ask my husband about. I explained my husband did not feel like sharing that information with me and what would she do in my situation, she could not answer and actually apologised. You soon learn who friends are, this woman sadly miscarried just before I left UK and I babysat her daughter whilst she was at hospital.

I don't seem to have enough info yet to expose from Australia, which would be my preferred option (I think, thoughts still swinging wildly). Or do I? I know that he went out with a female that he has denied going out with, and I believe her to be a horse groomer on the estate. Mmmm, even reading that back I see that it is very flimsy evidence!

Caracel, can you take a week off and just go there and surprise him? See, I would go there, surprise him and get the truth. Expose the affair wide and far and THEN make a decision about your next steps.

Your "friend" is a scumbag. What kind of a person would not warn someone when they were being destroyed behind their back? ugh....

Cara,

If you decide you want to save the marriage, I concur with Mel. Take a week of emergency vacation, travel to UK and surprise your husband. Find out what is going on and with whom. By now, your "friends" (not YOUR friends - maybe loyal to your husband, certainly not supporters of your marriage) have let your H know that you are suspicious. You won't get any more information our of any of them. So go there and see for yourself what is happening. Expose to everyone and then decide what to do next.

If you decide to stay where you are and simply divorce your H, no one could fault you. Can you think clearly enough about what you want? It is very difficult to think clearly after a shock and the stress that follows. I have no idea what I was doing for several weeks right after D-day. We have a son who was 14 at the time and I have no recollection of getting him fed, to school, even talking much to him at the time. I do know at some point, when I was seeing an IC, the IC had me write a checklist that included eating daily.

In any case, we are here and can support you no matter what you decide to do at this point.

AM

It has been a rough couple of days, but guess most of you here would know how that feels. I hate to think it, but I feel I have to try and move on. Going back to UK to confront, I just don't think I have it in me, I am not a person who handles conflict well. And there is always the chance even if I went, that husband would be able to hide it all whilst I was there so I would still not get my answers.

I rang him this morning and laid my cards on the table, he knew I had been in touch with friend anyway, so was well prepped. I have to give it to him, he is very good, during conversation almost had me convinced. I avoided LB's (I think) and conversation did not go too badly. He is stating that he has been out with OW once since his return to UK, and that prior to that he did not have any feelings for her other then as friend but now he feels there may be a spark but he is not going to rush anything. Almost makes me sick writing this. I asked how in three weeks since being back he has progressed from no feelings, to spark, to dating, and wasn't that all quite quick? I told him that I believed at the very least he had been involved in emotional affair and was denying it to me, everyone, possibly even himself. He does not agree with this, is justifying his every action and annoyed that everyone on the estate is gossiping about him even though he admits that if he were in their shoes he would be doing the same! He reiterated that to him our relationship is totally over, he has no doubts about this and the four days prior to his leaving was simply "pressure" from others. He said he knows I want to keep trying, but I interupted and said that I was no longer so sure of this given he was already "dating" and that seemed to stop him for a minute.

So now my question is, can I implement Plan B without exposure? I know my chances of Plan B working are slim without exposure, but I also want to try to start moving on with my life and I can't do this with continued contact as stupidly, I start to hope things will work for us even though logically I can see they won't. Thoughts on Plan B?

Who is the OW? What is her name? Did you get that?

And I would expose with what you have. Your H has admitted his adultery. Get her name, tell folks that you have discovered the reason he wants the divorce is because of his affair with XXX. [I ASSURE you this is the truth so don't worry about it] Spread this around to his family and tell them also that he is denying it but his "friends" say otherwise. Your H has already admitted he is dating her, but is lying about when it started.

This will ruin the future of their affair if the OW knows that his family KNOWS about the affair.

I would also contact the OW directly and tell her that you know about the affair and have informed his family and friends.

Put them on the defensive and put them in a position to have to make excuses and tell lies. That will cause great conflict in the affair.

Then sit back and DON'T go into Plan B for now. You have a real strong ability to attract him and I would continue to do that for awhile from afar. Be as pleasant and attractive as possible while his affair crumbles. [and it will]


I would continue to stay very non-committal so he doesn't view you as Option #2.

Cara,

Follow Mel's advice and expose as she posts above. It is spot on.

Your H is in an affair and the people on the estate know it and that is why they are gossiping. It is obvious that your friends already know. It is good to let them know you are outraged and that their keeping H's sleazy secret means they are no friends to your marriage. I would remind friend wife of your loyalty to her when she was in the hospital.

Expose to his and her family. Kill his little fantasy that what he is doing is all right.

Cara, I guess I am much more confrontational than you are.

AM

Caracal, to you.


I pulled that out of one of you posts then kept reading, and see now where he admits there is a OW. I was going to say when I saw this, my stbxwh said the same thing, and it wasn't long after, I found out about TWO CA/EAs that were ongoing at the SAME time, and for 3 months on one, prior to the moment he said this. They all lie about this crap it seems.

Don't worry about your initial contact with him after finding out. It's one heck of a shock to the system when you find out info like that. It HURTS. Suspicion is one thing, proof? Wow, totally different. As many D-Days as there have been for me, they did not get any easier.

My only advice now, is cover your finances. If accounts are joint, make sure he can't clean them out or run them sky high on bills. Take it one day at a time. IF he says he wants to try again, but he is not willing to come back to where you are, at the very bare minimum, on top of all the rest of plan B stuff, he's not worth having. Going to where he is would just further his chances of continuing and leave you without your support network.

I did smile when you said he was annoyed that everyone on the estate is gossiping about him. Good. Nothing like finding out the WS is the subject of gossip. I hope he gets an earful about his conduct, and exposing would just help that along. If you decide there is a chance, you will have to expose.



Wishing you the best.

I think you hit on a very good point here with MANY of us BS's. For whatever reasons, we don't have the fighting spirit, either never did as it's just not who we are, or just ran out of it when it's needed. Not sure.

Making waves sometimes is the hardest thing we can do. Sometimes, it's impossible until pushed to the breaking point.

[quote]
No, I can't get the name. I text the mutual friend with a lot of guilt trip involved but got no response. And I asked husband today this morning but he refused to tell as he can't see the point and feels I am looking for answers that don't exist. I must admit, I am having massive doubts myself about my own judgement, questioning if I am looking for things that don't exist as I still don't have any direct evidence, all just my perception. But that is what he would want me to be doing, isn't it?

I intend to expose to immediate family, friends (including the "friends" in London in effort to really launch guilt on them, and possibly uncles and aunts whom I know he really respects. Work colleaguse seem to all know and I don't have many of their details anyway. My worry is that he is able to carry on in UK with little consequence as all the influences are in Australia. His sisters have indicated he is not contacting them in the past three weeks, though they have occasionally gotten hold of him. Running away from the consequences?

I contacted on of his trusted sisters today and she is starting to be very suspicious as well (although always acted suspect anyway, actually telling me she asked him outright whilst he was in Australia but his response was "wouldn't that make things easier?") She intends to follow up with another sister to try to piece anything together, any hints / clues he may have dropped, but it is unlikely has he has it pretty sewn up. Actually, I will also ring the other sister, as she has been badgering him already to get back with me, so it can't hurt! I hope my exposure will not offend them as I greatly respect his sisters and they are from Catholic background.

I have to admire you for it armymama, wish I had it in me. Maybe if I had someone for moral support in London, but it would likely end up with the estate vs me at this point! I am actually going to be pretty proud of myself if I pull the exposure off!

Cara,

All any of us can do is whatever our best is. You can pull off the exposure. Exposure does more than initiate a guilt trip. Mel talks about it as "turning the light on in the crack house". Suddenly, it is not near as an attractive place to be.

Don't doubt yourself. Waywards are very manipulative and lie massively. The term for this is "gaslighting" and comes from a 1950's Alfred Hitchcock movie, in which the husband has the wife believing all sorts of things that were not happening. Goggle gaslighting and you will see what we mean.

My husband tried telling me all kinds of stuff and I almost believed some of it. Had I not been reading on this site, I never would have gotten the truth and who knows what would be happening now.

AM

Right, he wants you to question your own judgement. But the fact of the matter is that he already admitted he is having an affair. He told you he is seeing someone and you are still married. That is adultery. He is just lying about when it started. The identity of the OW is information to which you are rightfully entitled because this is your husband. You have a RIGHT to this information and I would keep trying to get it. And yes, the answer you seek DOES EXIST: the name of the OW. She has your name, and you have a right to know the name of the woman who is having an adulterous affair with your husband. He OWES you this information.

Can anyone give me a link or some advice on how to word exposure email... I am unsure how much content needs to be included as much of my version is based on my suspicions with little evidence of when affair started... I think family / friends will view him as acting well by seperating prior to commencing affair although we all know otherwise!

Caracal, I would word it something like this:

Dear friends and family, I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of Joe and I. As some of you know, Joe has recently asked me for a divorce, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I have discovered that the reason is because he has been carrying on an affair with a woman who resides on XXX estate. The purpose of the separation is so that he can carry on his affair without my interference. Joe has tried to claim that his affair began AFTER I left for Australia, but this is not true. [as if that justified his adultery, we are still married]

As our friends, I am asking that you use your influence with Joe to persuade him to end his affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if he would only end the affair. Please support him in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers. Warmest regards, Caracal

A warning, Caracal. You will get support from the most surprising quarters and no support from others. You have to be PREPARED for some criticism.

If you are criticized, you have to sluff this off and not take it personally, ok? Can you do this?

You will be criticized a lot most likely..EVERYONE criticized me when I exposed...just be prepared

But this is ok. We know that we won't get 100% support from every target. The objective is still achieved. It puts the affairees on the defensive and forces them to defend their actions. It brings the affair out into the open and makes it much harder to carry on. Even though some folks might not like exposure that does not mean they will associate with a cheater. And can you imagine how the OP feels going around ppl who ALL KNOW? Affairs thrive on secrecy so just getting it all out there causes the fun to dwindle. They can no longer pretend to have honor when everyone knows they are a sleazy adulterer.

Exposure still achieves its objective even though some - or all - of the targets don't support exposure.

Okay, thanks for all of the encouragement, I have started the ball rolling. I am very worried that everyone I sent email to will simply believe husband over me as I have so little evidence. Will have to wait and see. And thanks ML, I based most of it on your suggestion, although somehow or other my version ended up a bit longer...

As to who to expose to, I have sent it to his sisters, our joint Australian friends (although he has not initiated contact with any of these since seperation), two of his cousins, two sets of UK friends that are also colleagues. I have not sent to any of his uncles and aunts as there has been some family tragedy lately and I don't want to add to the burden... thoughts on this?

Also, should I be texting his employer? His employer would likely get a giggle out of it as he has gossiped about a previous staff member who used work to date the female staff, albeit he was single at time. I am a bit intimidated that this is crossing the line. Actually, the whole exercise has filled me with dread, but at least in some way I am taking control.

I don't have contact details for all colleagues and don't know surnames... drat!

Can you give more details? What about his parents?

His parents are deceased. Sent to all siblings bar one that he does not have contact with. The cousins are the ones he visited whilst back in Australia, probably the closest with him. His UK friends are all colleagues, but I don't have surnames or contact detail other then the ones I have sent to. There is an uncle who he is very close to, but he seriously has too much family tragedy going on in his immediate family at present and I would hate to add to it.

Husband text me message overnight, and now I am full of doubts as I fear no-one is going to believe he is having an affair. Today I am not so sure I believe it and worry I am reading too much into everything! The text said his sister had rang about email, he denies affair and I can think whatever I want, he thinks I am trying to break him down. He will see to the divorce papers as soon as he can as we need to move on with our lives. He didn't mean to hurt me but knows he has, and will talk soon. Is this normal response?

If I am to try to deposit in Lovebank, how should I respond to this text?

Oh, and how do I switch this to SAA forum?

That is completely normal! What you need to do is strike a balance here. On one hand you need to be as attractive as possible and on the other you need to let him know you will not just roll over, but letting Him know that he is in for the legal fight of his life.

If divorce were filed, WHERE would it be filed and how could you file on grounds of adultery? Is that possible in your countries?

Divorce would be filed in Australia, no grounds to file on adultery. As long as seperated 12 months, divorce granted.

As per response to his text, how about I am sorry he feels I am trying to break him, this is not my intention. And I know his intention has not been to hurt me, although he has. My intention is to try to reconcile.

Also, the text he sent mentions he "did not have an affair", not that he is not having one now. I suspect he is differentiating that he may not have been physical with her before returning to UK, and not classifying emotional as an affair. Should I challenge this or is that a LB?

It is not a lovebuster at all. In every instance that it comes up, I would call this an affair. In fact, I would send something like this:

Thanks for the text, Joe, but I know about your affair. It makes no sense to deny it when you even admitted it yourself. You are a married man, after all. Your affair has caused me enormous pain and grief that is beyond words.

Is adultery ADMISSABLE? In my country, Texas, we are no fault, but adultery and physical abuse are taken into account.

No, in Australia divorce is on a no-fault basis, the law does not take into account adultery. Only requirement is 12-month seperation. Not sure it matters in our case anyway as no property or children, our assets are largely already split half and half.

bumping up for Caracal

Hi everyone, hoping I can ask for some more advice and give a bi tof an update...

So the reaction to my exposure... nothing!!! Other then his text of his sister ringing about my email, saying he did not have an affair but I can believe what I want, he believes I am trying to break him, he will see to the divorce papers as soon as possible as he feels we need to move on with our lives, he never meant to hurt me but knows he has, and we will talk soon. Oh, and a pitiful "take care" tagged on the end.

I sent back a text saying thanks for the text, I am sorry he feels I am trying to break him, this is not my intention just as I know he never intended to hurt me but he has. I said there was no point in denying affair as he and others have admitted it, after all, he is still married. And I can't begin to describe the pain his affair has caused me.

But no one else has contacted me, whereas I was getting all geared up for a barrage of abuse and anger. Now I worry they are all just whispering that I am some sort of bunny boiler imagining he is having an affair... who knows?

I need some help with Plan A and how to handle the phone call from husband I am anticipating will come tomorrow (Sunday). I want to be well prepared rather then just reacting. Given he is overseas and already seperated from me, am I in a position to explain his affair is causing me pain and he should end it? I also don't want to get into a slanging match about whether he is or isn't in an affair (I think he is excusing his behaviour as he may not have gotten physical with her prior to seperation) but I would like to know more details about what / who I am up against. Should I be trying to do this at this stage or will that just love bust?

Any contributions welcomed, you are all helping me so much.

Hi again, I need to vent... and here is the safest place for me to do it. I have had a rough couple of days awaiting reaction from exposure, but not getting any response. Something would be better then nothing at this stage.

Last night I went to my friend who had the emotional affair. I sat and just felt overwhelming dispair, watching her with her husband and daugther, surrounded by their family and wedding pictures. She and BH worked it out, and are stronger then ever for it. Meanwhile my husband and I just don't seem to have a chance, even though we have had such a strong relationship. Maybe that is just my perspective though, husband doesn't seem to feel at all like fighting to salvage what we have. I feel such grief for realizing that this is unlikely to work out, that I will never be pregnant with his child like I thought, that I will never wake up beside him again, that I will never again cook him pancakes on our Sunday mornings... the grief and dispair is crushing.

Add to this I went to doctor on Friday, and am now on sleeping tablets (Temazepan) and being referred to psychologist. All of my hopes and dreams for the future, a future I thought was so positive when I returned to Australia, are gone. I know this is self-pity talk and am copping a lot of flack off my father who keeps saying things like "chin up". But then I trusted my husband with my life, and now have to consider things like whether I should go for sexual health check as I have no idea how long this affair may have been going on for. In my really bad moments I even wonder if I have conjured this affair up as husband seems to be suggesting.

Thanks for listening and hopefully tomorrow will be a better day.

Cara,

I am sorry you are feeling so bad. It is good that you are getting some medical help. Have you thought about anti-depressants? I didn't take them for a long time, but got to feeling so bad that I changed my mind and started taking them. They were a considerable help. And yes, get a checkup for STDs. You have no idea whether you have been exposed to something or not. My H was amazed when I get tested. He could not understand why I would be concerned because they talked about it and his OW told him she did not have any STDs. Then, I asked what her husband was doing, her previous affair partners and their wives - who had they been with? What an idiot my H was then. I doubt he even remembers saying stuff like that. If I would mention it now, he would be more amazed at himself back during the A.

Dr. Harley says that many people have told him that being a betrayed spouse is worse than being a rape victim or having a child that has died. For most people, it is the worst thing that ever happens in their life. Certainly, it has been that way for me.

And no, you didn't conjure up anything. Did you ever goggle the term "gasligting"? Waywards will attempt to mess with a betrayed spouse's mind. Nearly all of them do it. Certainly, if I had not known about it, I would have bought into some of the garbage my H was trying to tell me.

There will be better days ahead. And if you don't feel like keeping your chin up, tell your father you could really use some support and maybe a hug.

AM

Cara, don't worry about not having a bashing of what nots over the exposure. You don't know what HE is getting, only what he says is happening.

I'm kind of heehawing here on the plan A/B thing. Mainly because of where you guys are. Going to think on that a minute, just thought of something super important on the other thread.

When you all do things, everyone seems to do it at one time lol. brb

ok, had to go back and read some more in here, skimmed to fast earlier.

Now, don't beat yourself up here! Just stop that part! The exposure came a little slow, so he would have had time to spin his own tales, BUT do not let the lack of a reaction bother you. They will all be looking at HIM...with that sneaky suspicion, hmmm, IS he or ISN'T he? hmmm.

As I said earlier, I'm on the fence on Plan A/B, due to the distance. I heard DrH on the radio show talking about adjusting the plan in this particular case that was being discussed, brain just went totally blank on what it was about, but there aren't all that many around that do Plan A/B from this kind of distance and survive either, so not positive on what to do here.

I would be inclined, were it me, to prepare for a plan B while trying to avoice all AO's LB, SD, and IB on talking to him in the meantime. But when I was ready to do the Plan B, I'd go with complete silence and a strong EP for him to work at.

Starting with him changing jobs and coming home to where you are. YOu do NOT want to be without your support, and the marriage is not going to make it if you two are not on the same continent.

Work on plan B, but be nice on Plan A meanwhile. Have the letter looked at, you have to put in a few more boundaries due to the distance I'd think.

Good luck Cara, I'm watching this! You CAN do this!!! And did I mention, listen to the vets???!!!!???

Thanks AM. I did google gaslighting, and have spent the afternoon here reading other's posts, and sure, I have heard quite a few of those lines. I love you but not in love with you, she is just a friend, etc. The really damning ones that made my ears [censored] more were the ones that condoned me if I was to have an affair, such as "if you get with someone now, I know I've driven you to it", etc, all in reality to excuse his own behaviour.

I am going to hold off on anti-depressents for a bit, see how psychologist goes and getting some sleep. But it is there at the back of my mind. And I take on board I should get sexual health check. Thanks for reading my very depressing post, hopefully tomorrow I will be more positive and get the fighting spirit back.!

Thanks NSZ for giving advice about Plan A / B. I have spent afternoon reading up on this, and it seems a lot of deployed BS with deplpyed WS give Plan A a go. I will see how I go, maybe try for a few weeks while I work on Plan B. Will see how our next contact goes. I have not heard from him other then the text after exposure on Thursday night. I am not initating contact with him, only responding, is this the right way forward?

The one positive I have is that he does want to return to Australia, so I just hope that OW is unable to come with him due to visa etc. I do not know her nationality. Husband says he is only over in UK for a few months for space and to sell car, tie up loose ends. But meanwhile the affair could become more entrenched. At this stage I have no idea of the amount of contact they are having, etc or what he is getting out of it. But yes, I had already thought that Plan B would consist of him having to return to Austrlaia, though obviously I will need to have more conditions then that!

So vets, Plan A and Plan B advice needed!

Caracal, I am so sorry you are feeling bad. You are supposed to feel bad and I know that doesn't make you feel any better. This is a terrible, traumatic shock for you. You aren't going to get over it soon.

I will tell you that adultery is not easy to overcome. There is a chance your marriage will not make it. But there is also a chance it WILL. All you can do is do your best to make that happen.

My suggestion would be to stay in Plan A for a short while in order to leave a good taste in his mouth. After you have done that for a while, then go into a very dark Plan B. His affair will likely crumble within 2 years and if you have left a good taste in his mouth before you go dark, reconciliation might be possible. [if YOU still feel that way]

I want to assure you that you won't always feel this bad. This is a very tough time but you WILL live over this, my friend.

Thanks Melody. I have to say, nothing this bad has ever happened to me before, I have always thought I led a pretty charmed life. What has shaken me so much is that I also thought I faced adversity and challenges well, indeed, up to this point in my life I believe I have. But now I am second-guessing myself over absolutely everything, need to get my confidence back. Today my parents left on a holiday, and I felt like I was five again with feelings of abandonment, not the independent woman I have been up to this point. I can see that my husband has always in a sense "protected me" and I have never felt so alone as I do now.

On a positive note, I have lost a stone! Will focus now on eating better and taking care of myself. I am jogging / walking most days, but would like to get back into gym classes as I loved this before our recent career break.

So with Plan A, should I initiate contact? I have not spoken with husband for a week now, with only one text received from him. I have sent two, first in response to his after exposure on Wednesday, and then one today to just say "Hi, how are you? Maybe you are to angry to talk. I just want you to know I don't want to break you, I am not someone that seeks revenge etc. I sent email out of hope for saving our marriage with support from others. xx". Should I try a phone call to try to meet emotional needs as per Plan A?

Hugs to you, Caracal {{{{{{{{{{{{{Caracal}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I would not do that for a while to see if he calls you. Men don't like being chased, so see if he contacts you. You will likely hear from him when he starts having trouble in his affair. When that happens, just plan on being as pleasant as possible. You will have to play this one by ear.

Thanks again for your invaluable advice Melody. I did read this yesterday that Dr Harley says woman should not do the chasing. And hoorah, I finally got some sort of information (admittedly small) that not all is going swimmingly for husband. He text me last night in response to my text to say "I am ok, still coming to terms with my new title! Things have become a mess now after that email (exposure). Oh well, hope you ok and will talk soon". So at least I know others must be contacting him to discuss the email. Better then thinking it had simply been ignored.

I am suprised that husband's reaction is so mild... nothing I have read about exposure reaction seems to fit the bill. Has anyone read / know of similar reaction?

caracal --

You REALLY need to find out her name and expose to HER side.
OW will go crazy when HER friends and family become aware.
And she will blame HIM! It busts up the affair quickly!

Thanks Lexxxy, I really wish I could get her name but have not had any luck. Unless I start ringing husband's family and asking them to find it out from him? What do you think? Contacting husband's colleagues will unlikely get me anywhere other then more lovebusting with husband.

Do you think your H's colleague's wife could be persuaded to give you the name? Just let her know that she knows your name so it is only fair that you know her name.

Caracal, you would not believe the damage we could inflict on the affair if you had her name. [if we are able to find her facebook page, that is ]

Caracal,

Exactly, how many female horse trainers are there on this estate? Has your husband ever mentioned any of the women that he has worked with?

While my H's A was emotional and had not yet gone physical, he mentioned the OW a couple of times in passing and mentioned a cute phrase that her daughter used. And even after the A went physical but 4 months before D-day (I am SO stupid), he mentioned to me where OW and her family were spending holidays. At the time, I remember thinking, "Why should I care about this?" I realize now that this was just a "fix" to his addiction. He thought about her and talked about her to get that "high" feeling.

Has your H talked about any one at all?

AM

So Melody, what could be done with her facebook page? Reason I ask, I spent a sleepless night going through husband's work colleagues friend lists to try and figure out who it could be. I got a match from four colleagues who have a female groom from the estate listed who might fit the bill. Early 20's and started there in Jan, just before we arrived back from travelling. But her facebook page is private other then info. And I am not 100% certain it is her. I have tried calling colleauge (who gave more info then his wife) with no luck, so have text but don't expect response. Just in case I get a confirmation from him, can anything be done without access to her friends / family on facebook?

AM, I really can't recall any of those sort of conversations about anyone where he might be getting a high. As I was only in UK for two months before departing, and staff had changed since our previously living there, I am unsure about all of the female staff, in total I think there is about 30 staff all up on the estate. But there was one who I saw around near our house but I don't recall him mentioning her to me. This is the one I suspect may be OW. I'll call her hoe to make this easier! Other then that there is an older female groom who I don't suspect at all (she actually came to Australia when I did for business), and another young 20 something but I am pretty confident it is not her either as she is living with someone else on estate. He does talk about this female occasionally but then we used to go out with her and her partner to pub. Husband's colleague implied he didn't think I knew OW, which is why I believe it might be hoe. And that is all I know, if there are other female staff they are more likely to be working in other areas of estate rather then with horses, although I again am not 100% sure. I just want to know so I can expose!!!

Caracal,

Would everyone who works there be living on the estate? If your H were getting together with the groom, would it be on the estate or would they have a meeting place off the estate? If so, I agree with previous advice that a PI could get this info for you. Once you know who it is, you can explode things wide open. At this point you know what you are dealing with, but not who.

AM

I have been lying low and reading up on MB as well as trying my hardest to snoop with still no luck! AM, not everyone that works on the estate lives there, so she could live off the estate. If it is who I think it is I have found a listing on electoral roll that suggests she lives with her parents... from facebook page it looks as though she finished secondary school in 2006, so I think she is only about 23-24. Not sure if her being so young makes it better or worse for me, my husband typically enjoys conversation and is quite wordly, so I hope he will get bored with her! But if this is her then it is unlikely she is going to be bringing my husband home to introduce to mum and dad! I would say the affair is taking place at my husband's home on estate.

I hope to follow your suggestion and get a PI involved, though am waiting for husband to contact so I can ask outright for the name of OW in hope that my suspicions can be confirmed. Or is that going to just LB?

Also, I have not heard anything from him since text on 11.07, I want to contact him as I must miss him sooo badly. I really just can't believe he is not missing me at all... but he clearly isn't as he is not making contact. It is now nearly two weeks since our last phone contact... how long do I wait before trying to initiate contact? Should I send a text? I am worried I am simply "out of sight, out of mind"?

Bumping up, know it is the weekend and slow traffic but really tempted to ring husband and want to know other's thoughts... my willpower is weakening!!!

Don't do it, Cara. Sit on your hands til the temptation has passed. You will look pathetic to him. Stand strong, woman.

Hi Caracal, it might not hurt to give him a call just to keep you on his mind. Can you conjure an excuse to call him? If you do, be as pleasant as possible, keep it under 10 minutes and you be the one to end the call.

As far as what to do with the OW's facebook page, there is not much you can do if her friends are not showing. CAn you find any information about her parents? If so, I would just gather that information and be ready in case this is the RIGHT woman.

Well ML, I am glad to see I am not the only one who changes mind... LOL! Thanks again for the advice, I have not rung yet, but might text instead as I can see your point that it will come across as rather desperate (which I am but guess he doesn't need to know that).

Regarding Facebook, I have taken on board some of the advice on snooping forum, and have set up a fake account. This has allowed me to access suspected OW's page, although she still has privacy settings that don't allow me to see her wall or friends. But determined that I am, I have looked at some pics of hers, and then gone through the names tagged to find out her brother, sister-in-law and several friends. I have also googled well and found out her mother's name, which has confirmed electoral roll info on her parents. I can get the address from electoral roll but number not listed. Parents don't seem to be on Facebook. I am pretty proud of my efforts, I am a Facebook dummy! But all of this effort does not allow me to do anything without confirming if it is actually this woman... the frustration is killing me!!!

Good job on super sleuthing! Did you save all these names in a file?

All written in my detective notes! I have now even got the parents address (which according to electoral roll she lives at). Now if only I could confirm it is actually her... exposure at this point would be sweet! Okay, that sounds a bit revengeful, but I really want my husband back!

I have text him. Hope no LB's involved, it is very hard to avoid these but I am trying. Please give feedback as to whether these texts are LB'ing or meeting any EN's... I am really trying to change my ways...

Me: "How are you? I guess you are too angry? scared? guilty? to talk, so I will text instead. Please send health letter to me, I really need it. Have you had any luck selling car? Is it on ad? Can I help? Lastly, thought you should know my mum is having test for cancer , I will let you know result. Meanwhile, thinking of you and the love we shared".

Husband responded to the point, just saying he was okay, was sorry to hear about mother and will ring in next couple of days (maybe...). He signs off with the "take care" that I have been getting since the seperation, hard to take after having such romantic texts from him whilst together.

Me: "Thanks for sending that letter. I appreciate your effort with the car, Africa and lion tracking really took its toll! xx"

Given my only means of communication at this point that he is responding to is texting, how am I doing? Suggestions from all please!

Anyone got some feedback on the above post? I am still waiting for SAA and HNHN to arrive and would welcome criticism and advice!!! He text he might ring yesterday (he didn't) or today "maybe" and I am trying to be as prepared for conversation as possible... but then he also may not ring and just leave me strung out! Whoever said it was the WS who had the addiction for OP, I think BS's also have it (or I certainly do!)

Hi Caracal, I missed your post. I would be sure and let him be the one to initiate contact so it does not come across as chasing him. And when he does call, be very pleasant, but be BUSY and end the call in a couple of minutes. You should be the one to end it. Ok?

You are doing great!

Okay Melody, I followed your instructions and he rang last night... I actually missed the call, so rang him back after half an hour and it disconnected so he rang back immediately (where he lives has very bad service).

So here is what we discussed. I said it was nice to hear his voice, we spoke about my mother, and our car that he is trying to fix. He said he will need time to get the car fixed and sold for the price he wants, so does not sound as though he is in any hurry to return to Australia. He said he has sent me my doctor letter I needed and that he had been a "bit slack as other things on mind". This took all of five minutes, when I said I had to go as I was off to the cinema, he did not ask who with but then said he thought we needed to have a "discussion about things" which I said would be nice at another time. He says he now has phone credit as he had been too busy to get any, and will ring "sometime". He finished with telling me to enjoy the movie.

Melody, was I right to end conversation when he was willing to "discuss"?

I am now really worried that the next phone call will be more lies, telling me I am delusional about affair etc. I also worry that I am not meeting any EN's in conversations. Reflecting on the phone call, I realise I talk too much, I get so anxious about our contact that I don't really let him say much and I need to slow down. Any tips for how to do this(other then taking valium, lol!) Also, this contact makes me get such soaring hope from so very very little, and I worry about how this is not following Plan A about my EN's not being met. I seem to be able to read something positive out of nothing, if that makes sense. Is that normal? I need to prepare myself for the next conversation that I deep down know is not likely to go well so I don't LB my heart out.

Please anyone, suggestions, feedback and support needed for my feeble Plan A!

Caracal, you did great!! Remember, the goal here is for your conversations to be as pleasant as possible. For that reason, I would do your best to DISTRACT him from any unpleasant discussions, such as denying his affair. You don't even want to go there because it will ruin your phone call. nononnonooono

So if he goes there, just say, "ummm, ok." and then try and change the subject to something PLEASANT. "Did you see the new Harry Potter movie??" JUST GET HIM TALKING about something enjoyable and interesting. See, it does not matter what he says about his affair unless he is confessing. Otherwise it is just meaningless fogbabble that will just make you mad. No reason to listen to that!

If he is persistant, just say "I don't really want to talk about all that serious stuff now."


Slow down! Change the shift of the conversation to 80/20 if you can get him talking. Focus on being quiet and listening.

AND.... make up a list of open ended questions [designed to get him talking] about subjects he likes. For example, say something like "what were your thoughts about Secretariat winning the Kentucky Derby?"

Put a TIMER next to the phone and set it for 10 minutes when he calls. At the end of 10 minutes, tell him "I am so sorry to have to cut this short, but I have plans and need to let you go. I have enjoyed our talk so maybe we can continue some other time?"

Pleasant, pleasant, pleasant!

Thanks for the reassurance Melody... although you say the conversations should be "pleasant", I find it is like a game of chess where we are each trying to anticipate the next one's move... like we are totally disconnected from each other. Have other's felt the same?

Also, should I text in ersponse to the call to encourage further contact or just let it go and return to the waiting game?

I say let it go! You don't want to chase. He should be the one to initiate contact.

It is somewhat like a game of chess, except it is not a game, it is a strategy. You need to remember you are dealing with someone who has the mentality of a falling down drunk. He has no plan, you do. He is high on the addiction of an affair. You are being STRATEGIC.

Melody, you have given me a sense of empowerment, and for that I have to say big thanks! You are right, I am the one with the strategy, and I can control my own action / words, although I must admit I do struggle when I have so little contact! It is almost like he is in Plan B.

A pathetic update... he text me the night of the last phone call "Hi, give me a text when it suits for you to take a call from me in the coming days. May not be able to call due to work but will try. Take care." I waited a day before responding, then text back "Fingers crossed for you with fixing the car today. I am home tonight if it suits, xx".

Guess what... he didn't call. He had the day off to take the car to the mechanic, I am now imagining all sorts of twisted stuff like it was probably OW's day off too, they are probably in our car doing all sorts of things that cheaters do (although he was having a good time getting me to do this in a car when he was back in Australia!)

I have been thinking a lot about my Plan A. And strategy. So far I am not really concentrating on me being a better me for myself, it is all about trying to win husband back... I know my faults in contributing to where husband was in position to have affair, and that I need to change these (and am trying despite little contact). I feel desperate to find out the truth of this affair and who OW is and a lot of my focus is on this. How did others progress with concentrating on themselves in Plan A, was it just time and effort?

Another thing... I am feeling stronger in myself (although still have some very dark dark moments) and I still want to save our marriage. My boss had a chat with me this week, and I explained marriage in difficulty, he suggested if I need any time off to just let him know and he will keep position open. This was like a weight off my shoulders, and I started seriously thinking about going to London to Plan A and snoop. This will be very difficult for me, I hate conflict! But I really want to be able to think I did everything to save my marriage (although I must admit there is also hope that I may win him back, very not Plan A I know). I am also not even sure he will let me get my foot in the door and I have nowhere else to stay, so it may appear too desperate? Have I left this too late... it is now 6 weeks since he got back to London.

If I did go my plan of attack would be to Plan A my heart out, snoop, expose OW to family and before leaving give Plan B letter. I need as much feedback as I can get about whether it is a good idea to go to London and how I can best pull it off if I do go!!! Calling all vets!!!

Good for you for waiting a day to respond!!

The next time he texts and asks to call, let him know that you have "plans" on that night and to give you a try next week sometime. Busy girls are NEVER available on the SAME NIGHT. You need at least 2-3 days notice.

And if he calls, I would not be available the first couple of times.

Thanks Melody, you are teaching me lots! What about the above post, you may have missed it as I was typing when you posted...

First off, the purpose of Plan A *IS* to win him back! The purpose of Plan A is to negotiate an end to the affair and to show your spouse that you would be willing to meet his needs in the FUTURE if he ends his affair. Your faults might have contributed to the condition of the marriage, but his behavior - his shabby boundaries with women - are what led to his affair. You are in no way responsible for that!

Do you realistically think you could sniff out the OW if you went there? See, the problem I see with that plan is that you will go out there and find out nothing. But you will come across as chasing your H, which won't help your situation. And even if you could inflict some damage on the affair [a long shot] you won't be in a position to save your marriage because you don't live there.

My vote is to stay where you are and ATTRACT him to you in Australia. His affair is doomed to failure anyway, so once it starts crumbling, you will be the attractive alternative that will hopefully draw him to move with YOU. As you draw him to YOU, he will draw away from the OW. As that happens, she will start lovebusting him since she has no plan. Another nice aspect of all this is that I see you starting to calm down:


The dark moments will become less and less the longer this goes on, I predict because you are not being subjected to his affair. This advantage gives you some time to deposit some MAJOR lovebank deposits before you have to go into Plan B. And you can do this with very little bad effect to your psyche and WITHOUT coming across like you are CHASING him.

What do you think?

Sorry Melody, I had to go and get my hair done, trying to look glamourous even if I don't feel it!


It is nice to hear this Melody, as us BS's can sometimes be so busy fighting for our marriages that we forget it was not us that decided to betray! When you say "in the future" I am just very concerned that my Plan A whilst he was in Australia was too weak... it was only in the last four days that he started to show a lot of indecision and we started to feel connected again. Since being back in affair bubble in London there has been no indecision whatsoever. And so little contact that Plan A is pretty much Plan B by his choice.

There is a chance I would find nothing, but I am much more determined now and much more aware of my options. I would try to install keylogger in laptop, get hold of his phone and obviously search the house. And I would have the element of suprise. It would be difficult, I imagine, for him to hide affair given his colleagues now know about it and it would certainly make him (and her) feel pressured as I would only have to open the front door to chat to other staff. I could also take walks around estate and pop up unexpectedly... My other thought was to go and stay at a friend's for a night after installing a recording device in the house... after all, if she is living at parents he would pobably take this opportunity to invite her around. But I do take on board your thoughts on chasing husband, and this could put him off. It is hard to know given I have no information about how the affair has progressed. I am worried he is thinking of marrying her or even having children with her as this is something he spoke about a lot when talking about reconciling with me, and is high on his agenda to become a father!!!


I would be a fool not to listen to you Melody and still regret not having listened to you much sooner when maybe I had a chance of stopping this affair from progressing (before I had my head in the sand and couldn't believe husband would do this). So do you think one 5-minute phone call since exposure is sufficient to Plan A? In six weeks of being back in the UK, we have not had a positive phone call. I text very little (and him less), no emails, and the card I sent initially (quite explicit about our goings on whilst in Australia, before he actually told me that no chance of reconiliation) was somehow intercepted and he says he never got it... mmmm, suspect OW is a wily one!


The interesting thing is that whilst in Australia I chased him for all I was worth, and he kept telling me not to give up as I had to fight for what I believed in. He seemed to want me to chase him and I wonder if this was because he had not crossed the line into physical affair. Now that he has, he believes he must remain with the woman he is having sex with? You may laugh at this, but we were both virgins when we met, and my husband has always been a gentleman up to this affair, and never spoke degradingly about another female... he has four sisters who taught him well! My chasing seemed to be making progress when he was removed from the OW. How do you suggest I make these major love deposits on the limited contact we are having?

My thoughts as you can see Melody, are still a mess! But I am listening and thinking about your advice, and weclome any criticism / feedback. Are you still for Plan A from Australia? Anyone else have any thoughts?

OK, I can't think of any time that I ever said something different from Mel, but here is my take of things. My H and I had a military marriage where we were both operating independently - much like you and your H were. My H had his affair after being deployed and mostly apart for 4 and 1/2 of 6 years. Things were a little different for us because he admitted to the affair the day I found the phone records (three days after I first asked him) and he got on a plane D-day and came home for four days. Two weekends after that, I was on a plane to where he was working and took 4 trashbags of "things that might have touched OW" to the dumpster. I was also on the phone several times with OW and with OWH. You can see I am pretty confrontational.

All that said, I think it is extremely difficult to Plan A from afar. Also, you still don't have an identity for the OW. So, I would be in favor of travelling there, snooping and surprising your husband with a visit. After all, he is still your husband; you are not legally separated and if I recall correctly, he has done nothing so far to initiate a divorce.

BTW, this affair went physical much earlier than you thought. He was deep into it before he ever mentioned anything to you.
AM

Caracal, my fear was that you would show up and there would be a big scene and he would tell you to hit the road. Do you think he will let you in?? If so, I think that would be great, because like you said, you may be able to get a keylogger on his computer. I wonder if you can get a tape recorder in there that can be managed from afar?

Do you think he would let you come in and stay?

And yes, I know he was growing close to you while he was in town with you, but I don't envision that happening there with the OW in close proximity.

I thought the same thing. There is no way this separation was begun over a emotional affair.

Thanks for giving me your thoughts AM. You're right, you are confrontational, and I am not. Exposure and airing my husband's dirty laundry was an extreme step for me. Maybe I am on the road to a new me, because I sort of can't believe I am actually considering getting on the plane. Husband would have made it sooo much easier if he admitted to affair, then I would have no qualms about getting on plane and claiming what is by law my husband and marriage. But regardless, I am seriously considering doing it providing vets and others don't think I am going to push him further away (long term, I realise in short term there will be fireworks). I am worried about chasing too much...

Husband has only threatened to divorce at this stage (text me that after exposure), but it is clearly heading that way with our low level of contact. In Australia you can not file for divorce until 12 months of seperation, so I still have a good 10 months to turn this around. There is no legal seperation paperwork.

I guess I should stop putting my head in the sand like I initially did and accept you and Melody's thoughts on the affair being physical much sooner then I would like to believe!

Melody, my fear exactly! I can't predict his response. I have spoken about this with my parents who have supported me in finding answers and giving it a shot. Interestingly his sister and her husband have suggested I go as well. When I have said he may just slam the door in my face, all seem to believe he could never do this to me... but then I thought he could never cheat! If I go I am counting on the element of suprise, and the fact that for the last 18 years we have been the best of friends and relied on each other a lot whilst overseas, in some ways almost in our own bubble in London as we were each other's largest emotional support, sometimes sole emotional support when travelling on career breaks in foreign countries. If this still failed, I thought I would have to try the shame factor. Sit on my suitcase outside his house whilst all the other staff gossip... I think that may pressure him into letting me in pretty quickly!

I was considering going for two weeks, that should give some time for his anger to wear off? But it is an extreme step and I want to be confident it is in the best interests of saving our marriage, not damaging it further! Thoughts?


Oh but Melody, you underestimate my charm! I do have some unrealistic hope that he will simply fall into my arms, but am aware more likely he will be angry, and then freeze me out... also at this time of year his job is very busy with very long hours, and I suspect he will just work to avoid me... but he has to sleep sometime!!!

I am still dubious about the wisdom of this plan, so Melody and AM please keep offering advice. And anyone else is welcome to give two cents worth.

Caracal,

Well, what are the advantages and disadvantages of going/not going? If you travel to England, you have a stronger liklihood of identifying the OW. You could snoop to see exactly what you are dealing with. You can expose further to those who can exert pressure on them to end the affair. BTW, I find it really discouraging that none of your friends in England would assist with this. Your husband may show interest in you. If you could spend enough time with H, you could plan A him.

Disadvantages of travelling would be H's potential anger if you "popped in" on him. But other than being mad, what else could be do if you arrived there? Certainly, if he were not civil to you, tossed you out without a place to stay, it would reflect on him to his colleagues.

If you stay in Australia, you could potentially attract him back. Would he have to come back to file for divorce? You said that divorce requires a 12 month separation. How is that determined? Separate residences? Someone just says he/se has been separated for the requisite time? If you visit in England, does that set the clock back to zero? Right now, your H is not talking to you often and you are not having many opportunities to "plan A" him.

I probably missed some considerations. But maybe, this can be a start to making a logical decision.

AM

More on this later, but I would not count on being as successful in making love bank deposits THERE as you were when he was in Australia. The reason being that the OW is right there. When he was with you, the OW wasn't around.

On the other hand, it just occurred to me that if you show up, he would have to either throw you out or tolerate your presence. If he tolerates your presence, it would cause huge conflict in the affair.

Of course, you have to be prepared for the worst if you go and have a plan in place in case he won't let you in.

Ok AM, I am going to use your guidance and just brainstorm a bit here to help me work things out. Oh, and I am also disappointed in UK friends, I have continued texting one on a weekly basis asking for support and information, I know if this is getting back to husband it is a likely LB but I also want friend to know that his choice not to tell me anything does not mean I don't have a right to ask and know. So potential advantages of going...
1. Better snooping access, increased chance of finding out name of OW.
2. Better exposure, able to expose to OW's family / friends and husband's work colleagues (despite them largely knowing). Probably able to talk with OW myself.
3. Could Plan A more effectively.
4. My presence could potentially stop the "out of sight, out of mind" that I think my husband is using to continue affair. I feel at the moment he has no consequences of affair whilst in UK. A pesky wife showing up and reminding all of his friends that he is married may be uncomfortable.
5. I am showing my husband how committed I am to our marriage.

Disadvantages of going to UK?
1. Husband may refuse me entry into house (though more and more I think he would struggle to do this whilst still fitting in with his "gentleman and nice guy" self-image.
2. Husband may just avoid me for the time I am there and tell colleagues to avoid me.
3. I may not find any informaiton and not be able to expose.
4. I may push husband further away by appearing desperate and chasing him.
5. The expense of airfare and losing income.

Advantages of remaining in Australia?
1. It is the easy option both finanically and emotionally. I have a large support network here.
2. I could potentially attract him back here, he does want to move to Australia in the long-term but seems too caught up in affair at present to move. I would just have to wait for affair to end. Maybe I am looking for a magic bullet by going to UK and time and patience is the answer?

Disadvantages of remaining in Autralia?
1. My Plan A is very weak when in seperate continents and he is not exactly chasing me for contact.
2. I am not getting answers about the OW so my exposure was also pretty weak, particularly in that exposure was largely to Australia based people who are easy to avoid by not picking up phone and the different time zones.

(
Filing for divorce in Australia is sadly all to easy AM. It can even be done online!!! He needs a copy of our marriage certificate (which I have and am certainly not going to provide to him, he will have to chase through register). So no, he will not need to return to Australia. I think there is a strong chance he would return for Xmas, eveyone on estate goes to visit family and he would be pretty lonely. Proof of 12-months of seperation is usually a signed affadavit. He is likely to state that the date I left UK (12.4.11 was when the seperation began, but I will contest this as I was not aware of the separation and legally I needed to have had it communicated to me. So date of separation was 18.05 when he stepped off plane to tell me. Visiting in UK does not set clock back to zero, you can live together up to 3 months without clock going back (in an effort to encourage reconciliation I presume).


Thank you AM, you are encouraging me with strategic thinking rather then reacting, although I must say there is part of me that is also desperate for contact with him and I need to be very careful this is not the sole reason why I would get on that plane.

Here is my biggest fear: you go there and are turned back at the door and have a meltdown. If you can have a solid plan in place if that happens, I would feel better for you. Another consideration is that she might be living with him now. Have you considered that?

Melody, doe this mean that you inclined to agree with AM now in that I should visit unexpectedly?

As for conflict in the affair, I so wish!!!

Plan if he won't let me in... I have a fantastic friend who lives other side of London who I could ask to put me up though I certainly wouldn't tell husband of this. She has actually reconciled with partner who left her to marry OW, divorced and four years later they got back together.

Of course, if the OW is living there you would find out her identity quick enough and could go check into a hotel room and start a nuclear exposure campaign. Just thinking out loud here..

Sorry Melody, missed that post. Yes, I can see your point which is why initially after D Day I did not go... meltdown was highly likely. I am certainly not saying it would be easy if he turned me away and I expect to return from UK worse off then when I left, I will likely be back to square 1. Is that reason enough not to take the risk? What am I more likely to regret in a year's time... I really feel our marriage and my husband pre-affair are worth it.

Plan if he turns me away... I can stay at friend and always change flight to return Australia sooner. If she is living with him... as of D Day no, friend told me that they were not living together. Now... who knows? That would cause a meltdown! You have given me something to consider...

My husband text me last night, updating me on the car. Says the mechanic couldn't figure out what is wrong, but all suggestions were very expensive so husband is going to try to pull apart himself (he is very skilled and hands-on, something I have always admired him for). He will "maybe" try to call today but he is working , take care!!! Grrrr I hate that line! So I am going to text back some sort of admiration about his efforts (I am currently reading Gary Chapman Language of Love, still waiting for SAA to arrive). If he calls maybe I will have more information since he wants a "discussion". I am hopeful his dicussion may be a confession, will have to wait and see.

Another update even on the slow weekend hope someone is listening! I text my husband response today, trying to meet some EN with "Wow, mechanics are as expensive as Africa! I appreciate you using day off for car and admire your mechanical ability, saw that in Africa. If car can be fixed, you will sort it. xx"

So he rang tonight... so much for his "discussion" or what I hoped would be a confession, but Melody I took your tips, and it was certainly pleasant, talking about everything from the weather to poor Amy Winehouse. He does not volunteer much about what is going on in his private life, but was talking about working on car a lot, his job (with my prompting) and friends having seen Harry Potter. He updated me on one of his sister's, but otherwise says he has not been in touch with anyone from Australia. And he has not been watching TV... I can guess what he does with his spare time!!! At least I encouraged him to talk more and listened, again thanked him for efforts with car.

It really hurts that he sounds happy, and he is about to sign a contract with employer, discussing higher wages. He is clearly not looking at returning to Australia anytime soon, OW has certainly changed his priorities. I am really hurting!!! The phone disconnected (or possibly she showed up?). Sorry Melody but I did not follow advice to end call, I was too busy hoping he was going to move on to confession. Besides, my mother is going to hospital tomorrow and he knows that so of course I would be home with her.

And that was it for his "discussion". He has not even raised exposure!!! What is that about, can someone explain how I exposed over 2 weeks ago, and my husband has not spoken about it with me! Has my exposure been that ineffective???

I can't comment on why he hasn't brought up exposure, I haven't been around here long enough to know. Are you sure he knows about it?

MelodyLane suggested you hang up with him wanting more, because men are supposed to chase women. Let him hang up, still wanting to talk to you, so he will still be thinking about you, even when he is with OW. Any time and space that you can take up in WH's mind, is less space that OW can take up. And the more he keeps from OW, the better for you. So next time, do as ML suggested. Talk just enough to add some LB$ and then, all of a sudden be busy. Say something like, "Oh wow, is it that time already? Well, I gotta go." It will leave him wondering, and you looking fine.

Caracal, you did great keeping it nice and pleasant! And I hope you didnt try and call him back after you got disconnected?

What did you decide about flying out there?

And I don't have any reason to believe your exposure was a failure. I have no doubt it caused conflict in the affair and made people look at them differently. Don't worry about that.

Thanks for the input Scotland. Yes, husband certainly knows about exposure, I know one sister rang him after me email and got the text from him stating he would get the divorce done asap as we both needed to "move on". I just find it very bizarre that last phone call when I had to go he said we needed to have a "discussion about things" which I thought would at least mention exposure, but then when he rings again he does not mention any "discussion". I guess he is either feeling so guilty, so far in denial or trying to be easy on me given mother going into hospital... who knows really, maybe he doesn't! I still find it difficult not to over-analyse, I think way too much!

Thanks for the pat on the back Melody. After any contact I really beat myself up about things I did or said, you make me realise I am not doing that badly given the circumstances. And no, I stayed strong and did not ring him back, did not even text him.

As for flying out there... my gut says go, my head says no. Scotland and your posts make me wonder if I will do more damage by going by "chasing him". But I also feel I need answers in some sense. The issue is I may not get them, but at least I tried? I am going to decide about flight after my mother's tests today, that should give me some indication of where her health is at. But I am thinking if all good, I would fly out there this week.

Meldoy, are you sitting on the fence about my going to London out of concern for my wellbeing (and thank you if you are) or out of the damage it could potentially do to chance of reconciliation?

BOTH. I worry about you showing up and a big scene ensuing. That is what would happen IF IT WERE ME! A big brawl would be a disaster and I just want you to anticipate anything before you go. If you think you can do that, you might be able to pull off getting the OW's information which would make it worth it.

And here is the other issue I have with it. You are not going to get the same reaction THERE that you got in AU. The reason is because he is too close in proximity to the OW there. You are likely going to encounter a cold shoulder.

If your mother is ILL, I think that would be a PERFECT REASON to get on a plane and go there. Just show up at his door with your suitcase in tow, "honey, I'm home!!" But be prepared for the OW to answer the door. If that happens, I would step inside and tell her "Please leave immediately."

And if I avoid the brawl, do you think I have avoided damaging chance of reconciliation?



Do you think this cold shoulder damage the Plan A I have been doing if I continued to Plan A despite it?


Why if mother is ill? I doubt I would get support (although last night he did ask about her) and wouldn't that then be wrong in Plan A as he won't be meeting my EN's?

I thank you Melody for throwing up ideas, it is getting me to think it through more. You are advising me against it, and I respect your opinion so will give it more thought. I know going would be extremely hard, but I think I could maybe pull it off. And it would certainly send a message to husband about my commitment to marriage and wanting to know the truth.

Armymama if you are reading, could you give me a link to how you pulled off arriving at husband's, as I have read some of your posts but am unsure if you suprised him or were invited?

Right.


Oh no, it won't damage it at all. I just want you to expect that so you don't get there, get the cold shoulder, and then become upset. I EXPECT you will get the cold shoulder.


I don't understand this question. I think that your mother being ill might cause him to support you and that would be good.

I am not really advising AGAINST IT. I am undecided and see good points and bad points. Actually, I think overall it is probably the best thing to do AS LONG as you understand what you are walking into. As long as you are prepared for the worst, you will be fine, IMO!

And really, there is no such thing as a perfect plan A. We have to all wing it and make the most of a bad situation. That is all you are doing here. I do trust Armymama's judgment very much, Caracal. She knows MB PLUS she has been in a situation where she lived apart from her H. I am very glad she brings that perspective to this thread.

Thank you Melody, I know I have been hogging your precious input! I will see how my mother is after today, and I will discuss this with my IC today. But I feel I need to go... I know I will be walking into a living nightmare in some sense, but it will only be for a short while and then I can return to AU, and supports. I will need all the help I can get whilst I am over there on how to handle things and venting though!

Armymama, I know my situation is different, but forewarned is forearmed... please tell me how you handled confrontation with husband and if it was a suprise visit or you were invited?

Hi again, still really hoping Armymama may see above post. Also, spoke with IC today regarding going to London... she in some sense coached me through dealing with this in a positive way, how to deal with anxiety etc. But there were a few things that challenged my thoughts and just wanted to think out loud here, any opinions welcome.

She said that my husband has most likely started to heal over our failed marriage... that the one who leaves heals quicker and it sounds as though from the nature of his contact with me that he is getting over me. That hurts and causes me to lose hope, but there is probably a lot of truth in it.

Secondly she indicated that although I feel like I may be meeting some of his EN's, his opinion would probably be that I meet none, and OW meets them all.

She was trying to steer me into having the goal of getting answers out of my visit (is there a chance for us and if not, why not?), rather then step towards reconciliation. True, I want answers, but I also want to show commitment to marriage. She thinks I should be upfront as soon as I arrive about my purpose, and pursue those answers from him... whereas I was intending to Plan A and not really raise relationship.

Her suggestion to focus only on "me" rather then marriage does not seem to fit MB or does it? Am I missing something... I have never had much faith in counsellers but thought I would give it a try. So far in four sessions I am still ambivilent about how it is going although it does help to have someone to unload to.

How about if you go
you focus on 'you' being the ultimate dream wife/woman whatever you come across.
No lovebusting, disrespectful judgements, selfish demands (asking an OW to leave your house post haste is not a selfish demand but a reasonable one if done without angry outbursts...)

Plan A is about being the best 'you' while, yes, trying to show you are the wife he loved.

So, in essence, it is about working on 'you' more than anything else. You expect to not have much apparent head way with a wayward spouse as you employ it tactically. You do it despite knowing there won't be much pay off at the moment.

It is laying groundwork to be utilized at a later juncture.

Hello have been following your story from Sydney and I am very sympathetic to your situation

Is there any way of obtaining key to his London apartment so that you are not faced with the doorstep scenario? Was this an address that you shared ?

Other wise the managing agent might supply you with a spare key if your name is on the lease.

Getting access gives an advantage from many points of view

GOOD LUCK

You can follow the plan which you think is best for you, we all have choices. MB and Plan A were created by a man who has helped save THOUSANDS of marriages from ADULTERY. How many has your IC saved?

Plan A until the moment that you need to go into Plan B.

This isn't about what ENs you do meet, or what reactions your WH may give, it's about YOU. These plans are ALWAYS about YOU.

Don't worry, i didn't "get it" at first either.

You don't say "Hey, can I be your wife? You appear not to want me as one but is there a chance you will want me to be yours somehow?"

I do have to say that if you go to talk about the relationship it would just be pointless in many ways.

You don't decide to make or break a marriage with words. Words can change with emotions which change on whims (based on love bank deposits, love busters, etc).

Actions speak much louder. You go and say "I want to be your wife". You act like a wife who cares and wants to be one.

He already is planning on OW being his 'wife'. We all know that.

You go and plan A and then shut the door with plan B and see if the affair ever ends and he is willing to rebuild with you. You decide if you want to rebuild with him if that time comes.

Simple. Not easy or fun or fantasy based.

Caracal,

Sorry to take so long in responding. H and I were spending yesterday hiking and having dinner.

First, let me address your IC's comments. It is clear that your IC knows nothing about MB. To say that your husband is healing from your failed marriage is a stupid statement. He is HAVING AN AFFAIR. That is not healing. It is the opposite of healing. He may be feeling "high and happy" in the short-term, but if he has had any kind of honesty and character in the past, an affair will eventually catch up to him in the future, when he figures out he has massively screwed-up. I do agree with your IC that finding answers on the trip is a good goal. But these answers should be identify the OW, provide more exposure and bust up the affair. Dr. Harley's plan for recovering a marriage after an affair: end the affair, establish transparency and EPs, build romantic love. If you can make the trip without lovebusting angry outbursts and disrepectful judgements, then I think it would be helpful. Telling your H to end his affair is not a selfish demand.

Here is what happened in our case. My H had already admitted his affair to me. He also said he did not want a divorce. What he really wanted was both me and the OW and although he stopped having sex with her after D-day, he tried for several months to keep her in his life. I knew the identity of the OW and had exposed the A to her H, as well as most of H's family. I had not exposed at work. It ended up that my H self-reported to his boss about 4 weeks after D-day. So those things are different in our case. About two weeks after D-day, I went to the city he where he was working. H had been at a third city for a few days of work. I called while he was on his trip and told him I was coming and would meet him at the airport. I had DS with me, who was 14 at the time. We went to dinner and then to H's apt. Because he did not have a chance to get there before me, H could not hide or get rid of a bunch of A stuff. Hence, I started with the trash bags, getting rid of things that OW had brought over to apt, gifts she had given him, etc. For me, it was like spring cleaning with one of the kids - throwing out disgusting old things like a moldy pb and j sandwich.

Caracal, I don't know if this helps or not. In my case, I knew I was not going to run into OW. I could handle the visit without being angry. H wanted to stay married. H came home about three months later. We both retired and moved to an entirely different location.

Our marriage, pre-A, was a good one. Our biggest problem was that we were living independently during the military deployments. When we were together, we always met each other's four critical emotional needs. It seems as if that part is similar to you and your H. When you were together, things were good. You just started spending too much time apart.

AM

Armymama is EXACTLY right about your IC. Your IC doesn't understand the dynamics of infidelity, and as such, doesn't understand the mentality of someone who is in an affair. That is like saying a falling down drunk is "healing" and has moved on. Your H is not "healing;" he is sick.

What your IC is trying to do is to get you to ACCEPT that your marriage is over and move on without trying. The reason is because he doesn't understand infidelity and doesn't know how to save a marriage from an affair. His goal is to get you to walk away without trying. Our goal is to save your marriage if possible. It might not be salvagable, but you are not at that point yet.

And like AM said, the goal is to gather information about the OW and use it to kill the affair.

I can see that a few others have jumped in to discuss your counselor. I just have to add to it.

Your counselor has no idea how to SAVE a marriage. And the suggestions she is making would actually HARM your chances.

No wayward wants to sit down and have a big relationship talk. Your husband is not trying to pick between you and OW. He wants both. And if you force him to choose, then he will more likely choose OW, because she is meeting his more important ENs. He would absolutely HATE giving you ANSWERS. Because he doesn't have any answers. He is stuck in limbo. And he would associate you with pushing him for something he's not ready to commit to -- which would probably be divorce. Because you have not had the opportunity to show him what a great marriage you could have, and that you are willing to forgive him and work on creating a better marriage. You would be pushing him to answer you based on his FOGGY mindset.

Your counselors goal is to make you all better. And the quickest and easiest way is for you to give up on your marriage.

Your purpose in going to London should be to spy on your husband and make your case for having a great marriage.

Hello all . I really have to say thank you to all the support shown to me on my post, I really do not know how I would be coping without you all. But on that note... I am not sure that I am coping! I have gone quiet this week, thinking, thinking, thinking, and not getting far with it. I almost feel like I have taken a step back in time and am where I was after being told "I love you but..." Uncontrollable sobbing, not sleeping, loss of appetite, obsessive thoughts... you know what it is like.

Anyway, I have not gone to UK. Maybe I have not posted as well because I am embarassed, disappointed with myself, ashamed. I so wish I was someone who could do it... maybe I could have if I had some information about what I would meet, but I don't. Armymama, thank you for your response, it did help me with my decision to chicken out. We are in different situations, my husband has not confessed, has told me we are heading for divorce, and is avoiding me like the plague. I have been spending my time reading SAA, HNHN and part-way through Lovebusters (they arrived this week) and my situation seems so without hope. That is what I am losing this week, hope. My husband has removed himself from me and our marriage as far as he can, physically and emotionally. It is so sad that I am envious of those of you who have a cake-eater, because at least then I would see that I am in the running. As it stands, my husband has made his choice.

Maybe part of the tipping factor this week was that my father rang husband. My father and husband had a close relationship despite us being overseas, both of them being practical hands-on guys. My husband helped father build shed, etc, they were often doing stuff like that together. Well, even my father was gaslighted by the conversation, got off phone and told me that there was no chance for us reconciling, that he was not sure husband was having affair, that husband simply did not love me anymore and we had grown apart. That I had changed, become so negative, that he had tried telling me five years ago, that he had tried everything since. That he was not having an affair and did not understand where I had gotten that impression from. Funnily enough, the following day my father said the conversation seemed a bit "gobbledygook", and I said that all of my conversations with husband seemed that way, so at least my dad knows what being on the receiving end of the fog is all about!

I say fog, but again, husband has really done a number on me this week. I am swinging wildly between believing that there is no affair and then thinking that his behaviour only seems logical if there is an affair... maybe I just can't accept that I am at fault and have lost him through my lovebusting and not meeting his needs. After reading HNHN I realise just how badly I have failed our marriage... maybe our marriage was not as great as I thought it was... maybe I am the one in the fog?

I have emailed the mutual friend on estate to try to get some clarification and explaining my side of the story which I had not done to this point. Sent the very emotional email on Wednesday, and this has not met with a response. I feel doubly betrayed, that no-one seems to feel I am worth the truth... and I am too weak to be able to go and get it for myself.

On a positive note, my mother went to hospital for procedure, and no cancer! Such a relief, something to be grateful for. And thank you for letting me vent.

Caracal, I am sorry you are having a down week. It is to be expected. This is very traumatic.

And I want to affirm to you that we already KNOW you were lovebusting your H and not meetng his needs. Your marriage was not great. You failed the marriage in many ways, AND SO DID HE. You are both to blame for the poor state of the marriage.

But, that is not why he wants the divorce. He wants the divorce because he is having an affair. I am not foggy and I am telling you this. Just think, he didn't ask for a divorce before he met this woman. Secondly, there is a solution to the problem of an unhappy marriage, so if that was the real problem why isn't he interested in solutions?

Having thought this through, I think you will be making a grave mistake by not going to the UK. That is because his affair will remain hidden and you will continue to allow him to blame you for the divorce. Even if you can't save your marriage - and I will say there is no reason to believe you can't save it - you might at least know the truth.

Please go there, caracal. Surprise him. Find out the truth. You need to know, no matter what happens. Not knowing will drive you crazy, and it will also greatly hamper your ability to save this.

Great news about your mother!

What your father doesn't know is that there very much *IS* a chance for your reconciliation. It happens here all the time. There is no reason it can't happen to you too. In almost EVERY AFFAIR we see, the WS "simply does not love" the BS and has "grown apart." That is the RULE, rather than the exception. We already knew that. But we also know that it does not prevent reconciliation.

C, you have nothing to lose and everything to GAIN by going there and surprising him. I bet you will find the OW there.

Caracal,

I am sorry that you interpreted my story in a way that made you lose hope. I just wanted to lay it out there the way it happened.

Mel is so right. Your H is HAVING AN AFFAIR and there is nothing very special or unique about it. Don't second guess your conclusions. The other thing Mel is so right about is that if you do not go to England, you will always wonder what exactly happened. Go there, take a look around and form your own opinions about your husband and your marriage. It you don't go, I think you may always regret it.

Since your mom is ok, could one or both of your parents go with you for support?

One more comment: Your H likes to think of himself as a nice guy. That is why he lied to your father. He made up the classic line that "things have not been good for the past XXX years". The silence of your on-site "friends" says it all.

AM

Uh oh, I think I have messed up big time... really really big time. Here is my whole sorry saga, still trying to make some sense of it myself so this post will be long, apologies in advance!

Last night I tried to ring husband's colleague on estate to ask if he would give me some answers to my email. He did not answer, but my husband did! They were working together at the time... husband told me I should not be ringing friend to look for information, and I said I would not need to if he would talk openly about things. He said he had to go as he was busy at work, but he would ring on his break.

I spent the next hour thinking how on earth am I going to handle this call... and guess what, I didn't handle it very well. I remained calm, but it was all very affair and relationship based, not Plan A. My husband denied that he had an affair prior to returning to UK, and although won't admit to affair outright now (evasive when asked) he agrees he is seeing someone. He would not answer if he is having sex with her (though I clearly know he is) but when I asked if he loved her he denied it. I know I can't really believe anything he says in fogland. He will not tell me her name, says it is not important for me to know despite my saying I am his wife and have a right to know this. I threw in a lot of DJ's, all calm but still bad... Things such as when he was home he said he needed space in London to "find himself" whereas it seemed as though he was now finding someone else, that he was allowing a third person to stop any chance of reconciliation, that he was still married and therefore he was breaking his vow of forsaking all others, etc. Yep, the holier then thou stuff. I even gave the statistics for divorce on second marriages, desperation or what. He didn't get angry, just said that to him the marriage was over.

I managed to get in several times when he said "I never wanted to hurt you" with a response of "well, stop hurting me then, stop having an affair". He says he knows he has acted like an "*#!*hole" to me, he said this several times and I just reiterated that I still believed him to be a good man. I also explained that his affair was the single most painful experience I had ever had, nothing compared to it and I couldn't explain the hurt and pain. I only mentioned this the once. He also mentioned he sometimes goes to bed thinking about all the hurt he is causing others, and I agreed that he was hurting others but that he could choose to stop doing this. He said "what, I should come back to Australia and you just out of guilt?" I said no, he could choose to come back to make our marriage the best it could ever be. He states it is too late, that I was too negative in the couple of months after returning from Africa, I sulked and shut him out and hurt him by not meeting his needs. He did say that we were both under a lot of pressure at this time, but still does not seem to think our marriage deserves another chance. He really sort of vented about some of the things in recent months, and I listened, agreed with him that my behaviour was not acceptable, and that I took responsibility for this and was sorry. I mentioned that I am now aware of my own failings, but that these did not justify his having an affair.

Several times I stated "I am still committed to our marriage. My deepest hope is to reconcile and build a new marriage where we both make each other happy, where I make you happy" or similar. He said I had had plenty of chances for that and what would be different, I explained there was a plan we could follow (I didn't go into what this was), lots of other couples manage to succeed and so could we. I also mentioned that I did not believe that either of us had tried everything as he keeps stating he has, and that together we had far more options.

I raised some happy memories of us in recent years, he said these memories were "okay"... One of these memories was about a sexy weekend we had, and he replied that not everything is about sex to him. I should have asked what it is about then, but instead asked is it about admiration, have I not admired you enough (I think this is one of his big EN's, and I believe this is what the OW may be giving him, a lot of flattery based on comments he made whilst in Aus). He again didn't really give an answer. I then said I realise I never told him enough what a wonderful man I think he is, and would like to be able to do this in reconciliation.

At one point I raised that on the day he was telling me our marriage was over, he then went on to talk about how there was a woman interested in him back in London. I said this suggested to me that he was already involved in affair then, and not committed to our marriage. He of course denied this, saying the only reason he went back to London was to sell the car, that due to financial worries he needed to sell the car. I raised that if we reconciled he would have double his money, he got annoyed at that, asking "is this some sort of brokerage?", I just answered that whenever people seperate they lose money but if couples remain together they have more money, that is just a fact. I also mentioned that when he was back in Australia he seemed to be wavering in his decision to seperate, but he ran away (another DJ, I know) and did not give us a chance. I said I believed if we were in the same country I would be able to meet his EN's, but instead he is looking at signing a long-term contract. One positive, if I can believe anything he says, is that he does not think he will sign contract. Whether that means he wants to come back to Aus, who knows?

And he is angry over exposure... he said I should not be so quick to judge him and it is no-one else's business about the state of our marriage. I explained it was other people's business when he was hurting them, when he had said his vows in front of these people, and that if he was more honest with me this could possibly have been avoided. I reminded him that I exposed to save our marriage. This did shut him up for a bit!

He did raise that my father rang and described my dad as "a good man", whatever that means. And how did the call end? Despite all the lovebusters on my part, he was amicable, which worries me as maybe this is apathy? He said he would have a think about what I had said, and he would contact later in the week.

Arghh, I have made a mess, my lovebusting is only going to make this worse, push him away straight to OW. I need to process and reassess where I stand. Where to from here?

Oh, and I text after call (yeah, was really not Plan Aing), based on some of my readings from SAA but hopelessly inappropriate and chasing him.

"Husband, thank you for being more honest about your affair. I am sorry for my part in not meeting your needs so that you began an affair. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are both suffering for my mistakes. I want to change these mistakes and create a new life for us both that will meet our needs. I loved you when we married and still love you. I want our love and marriage to be better then we ever had. We could do this if we choose to. Meanwhile, I am thinking of our love, how we met and our achievements together. We could achieve so much more, older and wiser and with more respect for our marriage. Hoping to remain your wife always, xx".

I don't see anything wrong with it at all. In fact, you conveyed a lot of important information here by telling him you would be willing to meet his ENs in the future and how HURT you are by his affair. I don't think he really understands that.

NOW, are you going to go there and find out who she is?

I agree with it not sounding so bad.
You DID convey a lot. Good for you.

Well, are you going there?

Thanks Melody and reading for not beating me up about the phone call... but I thought for Plan A this was way too much affair and relationship talk?

Sorry I have not replied sooner, you're persistence in questioning me about going to UK has had me thinking. I know I should go, I know that this is probably the best plan in busting up the affair or at least creating conflict, but I am not going, I simply don't have the strength. I realise this is also letting my fears control me, so I am thinking hard about it. My decision on this changes by the hour, and I have even started to think about giving up entirely on husband as well, I am becoming angry about his lying. I only got the "confession" if I could call it that (more like justifications) because his friend told him about the emotional email I sent and it is likely he thought he needed to say something to get me off everyone's back. Despite this, I do still want to save our marriage. Do I have any other options in doing this from Australia? Tactics?

Feel free to criticise my decision, I know I am not following the plans here and it is not getting me anywhere!

Other feeble excuse for not going is that at moment husband is working very long hours and unsure when this ends (about 16-17 hour days) though should be soon. This is typical at this time of year.

I am very confused about his leaving me for a woman he says he does not love... this can not be right can it? He must believe himself to be in love? Or am I trying to read too much into his fogbabble?

Contact since he rang and my return text Friday... I have been chasing him and doing everything not recommended in Plan A, I need to rein it back in.

Saturday I text: "Hiya, hope your feeling better? Some gossip, there was a shooting in my street by police of knife-wielding psycho! xx"
WH Response: "Hi, I am getting better. Well, hope they got him, glad to see police handled it. Bet it gave you a scare hey!"

Sunday I text: "Hey trooper, glad to hear you're getting better. And your right, psycho was scary, but a woman! Just saw lions eating an elephant documentary like we watched in Africa, interesting. Are your work hours shorter?"

No response to this.

Trying very hard to not have expectations as per Plan A.

I again have to thank you all for your support and I really hope my cowardice will not cause me to lose support. Though maybe I do deserve that!

Thanks for laying it out AM. And you are right, I may always regret not going. My parents have actually left for an extended vacation (Grey Nomads we call it in Aus), away for a few months. They have been planning this for over a year and had to delay it due to mother's health, I couldn't ask them to delay it longer. I believe I could have gone with someone else's support, although financially this would have been a huge strain for me cause I would have had to buy two tickets. Excuses excuses huh?

Hi Cara,

No advice from me...you are in good hands with Mel and AM. I did want to tell you that I just saw your reply over on Operation Investigate, so I'll reply to you there. Sorry, I just saw it this morning!

I think you are still in the stage of no exposure/trying to confirm, correct? I am drawing that conclusion without fully reading your thread, but by AM's response so correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll hop over to OI forum and see if I can give you additional tips for Facebook.

Thanks Surfer, I will check the other forum. I know Melody and AM are brilliant, just wish I was following all of their advice (I am trying!). I have exposed to WH's three sisters and brother-in-laws, my parents (his are deceased), my brother, WH's two cousins, our best man at wedding, two of his work colleagues he is close with, my friends and a mutual friend. Problems is, other then work colleagues who have turned a blind eye, all of the others are not in the UK where WH is! But I can't confirm identify of OW, though I have strong suspicions. Am actually wondering about facebooking her anyway to ask and say if so I have important info about WH (he was cheating on her with me whilst he was back in Aus)... though that may come across as absolutely bonkers if I am wrong.

Oh no. I have no idea why some say there shouldn't be relationship talk. That seems very counterproductive and gives the impression that the BS isn't too concerned about the affair. I like what you said to him with the exception of your short texts. I really would stop that, Caracal, because it does come across as chasing.


You are following the plans just fine! There is no right or wrong way in your situation.


He is lying to you about that.

My suggestion would be to stop contacting him and just sit back and take it easy.

Oh Melody, this is so much easier written then done!!! I can not think about anything other then him, missing him, or what he is doing to our marriage. Some times I even catch myself thinking I am just having a nightmare and surely will wake up soon. I had such hope the four days before he left for London, and now there just seems to be nothing. He is moving on and forgetting about me, seemingly without even grieving for the 18 years we had together, for everything we achieved together. Work seems to make my mood even worse, like having to go through the motions and wear a sile for the day just drains whatever strength I had.

He did text back to my last text (and don't worry Melody, promise I haven't text since Sunday though am having to sit on my hands to stop myself). He simply replied that his work hours are winding down so he may have more time to work on the car.

There is no cake eating here, how many of you reading just think I should give up? I mean, he has opted for Plan B, I can't Plan A if I can't chase him given he is not initiating contact. I know giving up is a personal choice, and that I really want our marriage to last, but my odds seem worse then most. Am I dragging out healing by clinging to a WH who has clearly made his choice? He has now been back in London coming on 8 weeks... and clearly is not missing me.

Caracal,

Sorry, as I said in earlier posts, I do not think it is possible to plan A and for most people to meet ENs from afar. At least, I never could figure it out. I don't think Dr. Harley has it figured out either. A couple of years ago, he started the military forum. One of many goals was to identify how successful military marriages were able to stay vibrant during multiple deployments. That forum did not come up with any magic ways to keep romantic love alive when the two people are living independent lives.

When you first started posting here at MB, one of the things that was clear was that you and your husband were living independent lives in your marriage. You had frequent and rather long separations for employment purposes. Right now, you are talking about "sitting and twiddling your thumbs". What did you used to do before? Did you have an active life whereever you are living, even without your husband being there?

I agree with your assessment that your H is not "cake eating". He isn't really getting any of his emotional needs met by you. He is continuing to live his independent life. I don't see how you can change that when living on two different continents. And I do agree that men do not find it attractive to be chased by women. Most men like to do the chasing.

I am so sorry things are not going better.

AM



AM

Thanks for responding at my low point AM. But I do just want to clear up, my husband and I were not having long separations. We had actually spent the last 13 months travelling 24 /7 together, returning to London for two month together, before I returned to Austalia to start a new job and he was to follow a month after. Instead I got the text message to say about "concerns for our future" two weeks after I returned to Aus, he followed three weeks after that. We have never led independent lives, until now. which is making my withdrawal harder, and I find it so confusing that he is not in withdrawal from me given we spent sooo much time together.

Sorry. I misunderstood the earlier posts. I never got stellar grades in reading comprehension.

I thought it was common for the two of you to be working in different locations. If this is your first separation for work, then you were probably meeting his needs - right up until he let someone else do it a few months ago.



AM

Calling out for advice... it has been a bad night, and I get it vets, I should not chase. But my mother has gone into hospital, should I let WH know this? He probably won't care in affair bubble, it is probably more about my EN's, so maybe I shouldn't tell him unless he contacts? Or do I text?

I wish he was here to support me. I know I need to learn to deal with problems myself, but am used to having him give me a hug or some comfort.

Caracal,,

Oh so sorry about your mom. I'm certainly not a vet, but I am weighing in with a no about contacting him. Pains me to say, but you're just going to set yourself up for even more heartache, pain and dissappointment. I have a hospital visual in my head that involves the knight and you and...

But, I just do think what you want to happen is going to. He's not there now and inflicting pain purposefully.

I'm so sorry! Prayers to you and your mom. Maybe others will have better advice. I just don't want to see you reach out to him and suffer even more blows.

Can you call a friend to keep you company, or family?

Thanks Surfer, I ended up texting WH, and he did text me back the next day. Also gave me a call a day later but I am now getting to the point where I just can't cope with him, so I ended the conversation in just 3 minutes. What with worries about my mum I was in no mood to be able to Plan A effectively. No contact since Saturday.

Melody, I took your advice and emailed Joyce for the radio show, it was on 08.08. Dr Harley suggests Plan B, but it was a pretty rushed answer. He was clear not to chase, just as all of the advice has been so I need to listen more!

Thoughts on going to Plan B? I can't really see it making much of a difference, WH is in Plan B already really. He only rang about my mother to make himself out to be the good guy I am sure.

Caracal,

I heard your email on the radio show yesterday. I never went into Plan B. I should have as I took much, too much before my H came out of the fog. My H ended the physical part of the A on D-day, but argued like crazy to stay in contact, be "friends" with OW, refusing to write an NC letter.

But, as I said before, I never could figure out how to implement a Plan A while we were living in two different cities and it already felt like we were in some sort of plan B. Much like you. We were talking on the phone and seeing each other on most weekends. But if I had it to do over, I would write a plan B letter and then go dark. It was not until 16 months later when H contacted OW by email and phone that I wrote a plan B letter and told him that I never wanted to see or speak with him again.

So, I think my advice at this point would be to write a Plan B letter and then go dark. No more talking, texting, or even seeing him if he shows up in Australia, unless he committed to recovering the marriage. But, I defer to those who have other approaches.

BTW, good job at getting off the phone in three minutes. Leave your H wanting more, not the other way around.



AM

I just listened to your radio clip: skip to 7:45 into clip

I agree that Plan B is a good idea. The point of Plan B is to protect you because much more of Plan A will wear you down and make you more unattractive. Do you have the book Surviving an Affair?

The point of it is not to get him back, but to remove you from the situation until the affair dies. And the odds are GREAT that the affair will die and he will contact you when it is done. Plan B can have the effect of hastening the death of the affair.

Interestingly, when most BW's go into Plan B, the WH tries his best to get her to stay in contact with him.

Do you know about Plan B, Caracal? It is a complete separation with no contact. He is not allowed to contact you and all contact much go through a designated intermediary. It starts with a letter telling him not to contact you anymore until he ends his affair. It won't be hard for you to do at all since you are already separated.

Thanks Melody and AM, time to start getting ready for Plan B... I think this one is going to be hard, although in some ways I am already in it. It is more about realising that by my cutting contact I am in some ways letting go of him and our marriage.


I know this won't happen Melody. There will be no contact, he will not make any effort. It is going to hurt me more then him.


I do have SAA. I am starting to write my Plan B letter. However, I am struggling to make it a love letter as is recommended, as I want him to know the impact this affair and separation has had for me and our families. Also, I have already written letters whilst he was in Australia that were very loving, so why repeat the same? It is going to be very hard to avoid any DJ's.

Also, is an IM necessary in my situation? With our lack of contact I wondered if I could just make all communication through email and only about business stuff. The IM is a difficult one for me to find someone who is not involved in all of our mess.

Caracal, I don't think plan b is going to be very hard for you because you have already been separated for several weeks. You will actually feel better pretty quickly - I don't think you really understand how depressing his occasional contacts are.

And yes you should write a plan b letter. That will give him the path back and will be the last thing he hears from you.

Plan b means no contact, so continued contact via email or text is not plan b, it is plan c. C for compromise, which is the most likely to result in divorce.

I don't know if your husband will try and get through or not, I will just tell you that every BW I have helped into plan b says that and it has only been true exactly once. Even so, the goal is not to motivate him to contact you, but to protect you.

Okay, I am writing my Plan B letter. And am very anxious about going dark, but spoke with a friend (my IM) last night who said to me that if I keep going as I am, even if WH does decide to reconcile "there will be nothing left for him to come back to". She was not referring to my love for him, but my emotional state! I do need to do this for me, although am finding it very hard not to confuse this with hoping he will snap out of it! I am soooo fearful that WH will see my not wanting contact and using IM as juvenile, he is such a proud man. This pride (and his having all his EN's met by OW of course) will prevent him from contacting me or IM, so I know Melody that I will be the second case where there was no attempt at contact in Plan B!

Interestingly mutual and very close European friends contacted me yesterday, and they have been trying to contact WH for two months, with no success. I exposed to them so they are aware of my version of affair. WH seems to have totally shut himself off in affair bubble. I am curious about whether his family are having much contact, I have not initiated any contact and think with Plan B it may be better for me to disengage from them too.

I know this next question may get me , I welcome the feedback. I have been reading Dobson's Love Must Be Tough, and am wondering about incorporating some of his tactics given they merge with Plan B. The reason is that I have done the clingy, begging needy love letters when WH was in Australia (admittedly before I knew of affair). He has even said he knows I would do anything to make our marriage work. At no point have I really tried to have my husband see the impact of his affair on myself and others. Can I refer to this in letter without doing any major lovebusting?

I feel for myself that I would get more out of Plan B letter if I ended it more along the lines that I am walking away with my dignity and conscience intact, and whilst he can contact me should he end the affair and want to reconcile, I will not be waiting for him. My WH has always admired my strength, and I feel that since the separation I have lost that. Any ideas?

Caracal,

Sounds no different than a Plan B letter to me (your example). The content is important, but the follow through (yours) is critical.

Also, Plan A should be short for exactly this reason...to hold and maintain (and deposit) as much LB$ as possible, and then go to dark Plan B. Plan A like crazy, and then go to Plan B with 100% resolve, planning and without fail. I can't comment on your timing. Others certainly can.

P.S.

Plan B is not inevitable. I did not mean to imply that! Plan A like crazy...for a few weeks at most. Then evaluate, but keep posting.

Have you READ the Plan B letter in SAA? Because it does state how hurtful his affair has been.


Don't say you are walking away with your conscience and dignity intact, that sounds like you are looking down on him. Do you have the Plan B letter in Surviving an Affair? Can you post it and let us give you feedback? And please keep it short. It really doesn't need to be more than 4-6 short paragraphs.

Just say how much he has hurt you, how you realize you contributed to the broken state of the marriage and would change in the future if he ends his affair and commits to the marriage. Then give him the path back and lay out your conditions: end your affair and commit to the recovery of your marriage.

How about something like this?

Dear WH, I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your affair once and for all.

Your affair has been the most painful experience of my life; so much so that I feel the love I once had for you rapidly eroding. It is because of this that I must end all direct contact with you. I would only be interested in speaking to you again if you end your affair and commit to the recovery of our marriage. I would ask that any pertinent information be communicated through IM, who has agreed to act as a go between.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your affair, and I simply cannot communicate any longer, knowing that you are with her.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are in an affair.

With my love,
Caracal

"I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are in an affair. "

Awesome. I just think "cannot" should be "will not". My .02.

That line is from the Plan B letter in Surviving an Affair!

Thanks for the offers of help with the Plan B letter. I ended up re-writing, it is just too private and painful to share. I have just sent it. He will likely not read it for at least several days (if he reads it at all). And I feel it is all so final. My marriage is over.

Anyone else feel so bereft just by sending the letter?

I need strength...

{{{{{Caracal}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I know you feel badly right now, but it will not last long. After a few weeks, you will be surprised at how much continued contact dragged you down and kept you upset.

Do you have a plan in place in case he tries to contact you directly?

And, if he surprises you and tries to have contact, don't jump at the chance to communicate though your heart goes pitter patter at his attempt.

Let him feel the void of life minus you being there and available at his whim.

Your letter told him of your love and commitment and that is all that needs to be said unless he ends his A and decides you are his true path.

Thanks for responding reading and Mel. A plan in case he tries to contact direct? He usually rings on my mobile so I can just not answer. On the landline however, I do not have caller ID. I would just have to ask, I suppose, has he ended the affair and booked flight to Australia (two of my conditions), and if not, say not to contact me but to go through IM? Is that right? I had not really thought of that... He is not into emailing so that shouldn't be a problem. As for texts, I don't really know what to do there... what do you suggest?

Not that I will have to worry... I know he won't contact! Mel, I will be case number 2 that WH does not try to contact in Plan B. Maybe I should be happy about that cause it makes sense that it is then easier for me, but it actually really hurts that he has found it so easy to turn away from 18 years of mostly good memories (or so I thought!)

Most people believe that their WS won't try to contact them while in Plan B and then they are shocked to see that they did.

What you should do is change your phone numbers. Don't let your WH be able to call you. Even change your email addy. This way, your WH will need to contact your IM.

Scotland, they are great suggestions I had not thought about... will give it a think. The landline I can't change (my parent's number, I am housesitting for them). The email address I would rather not change, too many work and international contacts would be lost in process. Mobile would be a huge inconvenience, but possible... and if he tries to contact (which I still know he won't despite all of your experiences saying otherwise, but this is also better for me to have no expectations) it would be on the mobile. Hmmm, food for thought.

An update on my situation... no change really. I don't even know if he has read the Plan B email I sent (I text him that he had mail so he would check but unsure if he has or not). Absolutely no response. I know, I know, this is what Plan B is about, no contact whatsoever, but some part of me had secretly hoped that it may have elicited a "so sorry honey, what was I thinking, I am getting on the plane right now so we can build a new marriage". Unrealistic expectation, but can't deny that I had that little glimmer of hope.

I figure my IM is going to have the easiest job in the world! And Melody, looks like I am on the way to being your second case of no attempts to contact during Plan B!

So into day three of Plan B... I keep having a lot of thoughts trying to decipher what is going on in affairland. Particularly what does his ignoring me mean? Has he been able to detach so quickly from me and our 18 years? I have triggers all the time of memories, does he not?

I realise my thinking is sooo not Plan B. My new mantra needs to be "Plan B is for me, Plan B IS FOR ME!!!"

First,

Now, DON'T DO THAT AGAIN. How is he going to take you seriously when you tell him that there will be no contact and then.....YOU contact him?

All of the thinking, and processing you are going to do needs to be done WITHOUT him. You need to just get this stuff figured out for yourself.

Okay, you had a slip in Plan B, now GET DARK.

If your IM is good enough you won't even know your WH contacted you, unless it is about finances.

Thanks for the encouragement Scotty. I sent the text at the same time I sent the email, have not contacted since. It is just my WH does not use internet often (sometimes only once a month) and I was worried he may not get it and contact me over weekend. And I do not want him contacting me for his usual "lets talk with BW so I can make me feel less guilty about myself". Was it wrong to do that?

If you sent the text at the same time as the email, then no. I thought you meant that you sent the email a few days ago and now decided to tell him that he had an email. If that's what you did, then that was poor timing and against Plan B.

It isn't up to you to make sure he reads the letter. I know that it would be hard to not know if he read the email, but you are going to need to let that go.

If he does call you, say, "Did you read the email? It's all in the email." Then, HANG UP.

Whew, glad to know I haven't messed up in Plan B already! I am determined to stay strong, I know I can stick to Plan B guidelines about staying dark.

My difficulty in following Plan B is about returning the focus to me, to stop obsessing about him.

I need to get my own life... part of the difficulty in this is that for over 10 years it has just been the two of us in other countries. I now realise we had our own little affair bubble going on. Actually that was part of the reason that we both wanted to return to Australia, to build up our support network with family as we both missed the social interaction that comes with being settled and establishing permanent relationships. So now I find myself in Australia alone. Although this is my home country, I have been away for so long that people here are having to get to know me again... WH and I left as kids really, and have changed greatly having experienced the wider world. I am re-establishing family relationships, but only have three close friends, two of which do not even live in same town as me. I am considering how I am going to expand my group of friends as the lonliness I am feeling is overwhelming... but also thinking I may need to move. Wish I could figure out what I want (other than WH to return that is)!!!

On a positive, my rose-coloured glasses about WH are starting to come off (very slowly though). I have moments now where I think about how he is no longer following his dreams to return to Australia to be there for family. How he seems to be isolating himself from those who love him most. And how he has always been a man that values morals, respect and doing the right thing by others... he has always been an incredibly generous man. What he is doing now is so unlike him... it is funny, my father commented upon WH's returning from London to drop his bombshell that he was "acting like a man possessed". Guess he is right, this is not my H any longer, this is a man I do not know.

It's tough....I'm not that far ahead of you in the process......it IS the toughest thing I've ever done!


Ignoring you (and my WW ignoring me!) means that they are STILL FOGGED UP!


Patience is the name of the game now.......calm with integrity and class!!!

P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E (I'm saying that for the BOTH of us!)


You are NOT alone!.......keep the close friends that you have CLOSER, they will help and support you!


My WW is the same way.....even our Daughter says that!.....my own MIL admitted that!

We are here for you!

Bill, you are in Plan A not Plan B!!

Bill, you're confusing me... are you in Plan A or B? I have read your thread and you talk about Plan B letter but I am unsure if you actually sent it?

But thank you for reminding me of all of those here who are offering support through this, we are all there for each other! I notice your D Day is day after mine. Sorry you are having to go through this as well.

I'm kinda wondering myself...... I thought I was entering Plan B but Dr. Harley told me to reach out to my WW again......I did......it didn't work out too well.
The WW told me "You just went too far and hurt me too bad!" (Exposure of the affair)
So.....where am I?
Dr. Harley sent me an email after I advised him of what happened.....and he replied:

"However, I still maintain that letting her know that the door is open for her return is the right thing to do, even if it may not work. The other reasonable option is to let go of her, but that will probably lead to a divorce. The option of hassling her should never be considered because it puts you in the position of being abusive and controlling, something she will reject regardless of how her affair turns out. Simply holding out your hand to let her know you love her and want your relationship with her to be restored is your best option. When she blames your exposure for closing the door on your relationship, remember that what she did was the most painful thing anyone can do to anyone else."

I sent her a card holding out my hand to her.....JUST Like Dr. Harley advised me to do. I followed it up with a call, actually several , which she won't answer.

So.....tell me where I am then.

Sorry Caracal....didn't meant to steal your thread.

Okay, I have decided to give my taker, who has to date been woefully absent through most of this, some free reign.

My husband is acting a coward... texting me from another continent to indicate the marriage is in trouble, leading me on to think that we could salvage relationship before he arrived back in Australia only to drop the bombshell that we are separating the day he arrives back. To call me his "ex-wife" the day he steps off the plan... hello, where are those divorce papers? Then avoiding me as much as possible for two weeks before four days prior to getting back on the plane, jerking my strings and definitely eating cake. Building my hope up... to get back to London and a week later dump me all over again. AND to have the nerve to say that he knew his cake eating "was going to bite him in the a@#!" and was actually his family's fault due to the "pressure" they put on him.

Placing all of the blame for the problems in our marriage on me... the only responsibility he has taken is to make sure everyone is clear that he is the one dumping me... pride I think. But he is innocent of any wrongdoing, it is only me that caused the problems in the marriage. He even had the nerve to tell my parents that it was all me!

And then to still let me believe this, me apologising profusely, telling him I would fight for us, I would change. And all the while he is having an affair... an affair that I had to discover by begging with friends to tell me what was going on. And his simply then saying he was "just friends", two weeks after stepping off the plane, and six weeks after finally admitting that he was "dating" when I persisted in contacting his friends with questions. His gaslighting has been humiliating and made me question everything. And since he now knows I know and don't believe him, he ignores me...

His dishonesty is repulsive. It has made my healing so much more difficult, but I will not let him have this control over me any more. I hope his affair is one based on fantasy, I hope this British winter is the coldest on record (sorry for those over in UK but my WH always hated the British winter and each one we spent there he said this was his last one). I hope the skank cheats on him.

Sorry for this venting, but I am pleased that today I have managed to find a bit of anger... I want to get this out, I do not want to become bitter and let that bitterness destroy all of my happy memories of our marriage. I will let WH do that!

Is it normal to start to pity WS's for their behaviour? Originally I was worried on my WH's behalf as I wanted to protect him from the affair as I believed he would eventually feel guilt (I am now doubting he is capable of guilt at this time, too foggy). But now I am starting to feel twinges of pity, not all the time, but to think that he finds his behaviour acceptable... that is pretty sad.

Whoah Bill, and I thought my situation was confusing... mine has gotten better in Plan B (so far?) as I sort of felt like I was in Plan B whilst in Plan A cause WH was starting to avoid / ignore me... think I trigger too much reality for him. Now I know where I stand, and I am liking the certainty of that. Sounds to me like you may be in similar situation to what I was... trying to Plan A but WW avoiding / ignoring? But I bow to the vets opinions, I still have a lot to learn.

And you're not stealing my thread, consider it sharing!

Bill, you are in what is considered Plan A. Plan B is a strategy to completely cut off contact with the WS and to not even allow her to email you. It is begun with a Plan B letter giving conditions to resume contact. You would be what is considered Plan A, though, because you have left the door wide open for her.

Caracal,

I see you have been getting some posts from those in Plan B. Scotland has had a superior Plan B. I know she will have some good guidance. The darker and tighter the plan B, the better.

I see your feelings are changing and you are pretty angry right now. Rightly so. Your assessment of your husband is correct. People in affairs become mired in lies. They make up reasons to justify their actions. They avoid family and friends because they are ashamed of what they are doing. They do despicable things.

I am sorry this is happening to you. But, I know that whatever happens next, you will be ok.

BTW, I believe that all affairs are based on fantasy. That is why they come crashing apart within a couple of years.

AM

You're right AM, and I am already going to take on board some of Scotland's advice... once my pay as you go phone is out of credit I will get a new number... every time the text beep goes I jump a mile, nervous that it is WH... I don't need this right now. And every time it isn't him I am somehow disappointed... not healthy for Plan B. As for it being a dark Plan B, that is going to be easy for me providing I stick to my guns (and I will!) cause I don't have to worry about seeing him... well, not until he returns from London which I think will now be a long way off so the happy couple can continue to enjoy the fantasy.


Yep, WH has even avoided telling his extended family of our separation. My anger never lasts long... typically I am just sad that it has come to this. I have so many positive memories that come back, the laughter and jokes we shared. Okay, less so in the two months before I came back to Australia, but that is only two months!!! I spent last night having a crying fit curled in the fetal position on the floor, but thankfully those fits are not as long and not every day... though still get teary quite a bit. I hope this keeps getting better, I sometimes seem to relapse but hope Plan B is going to help with that.


Thank you, and you're right, I will be.


I do struggle with believing my WH's affair is fantasy... I know affairs are not unique, but I tend to think that WH must have found real love or something to act this way. And I doubt the 2-year mark (although I would love to believe this). My brother's WXW left him suddenly for OM about four years ago and they are still together. It does happen (though I wouldn't say they are happy, she definitely affaired down). My problem is I believe my WH has affaired up in a sense, cause I don't really know who it is, and suspect that OW is at least 12 years younger. Regardless, I am not waiting 2 years, I will review Plan B at 6 month point. Although I will not date until divorce is final (if he files, I won't) I do want to have another relationship one day (once I grieve this one and figure out how to make myself happy again).

So I should keep the door wide open and wait?
The WW blames me for EVERYTHING and keeps playing like a 20 year old in her first apartment.
I'm frustrated and confused......trying to be smart and brave.

Caracal, most affairs are "real love." They do feel love. And it is "real." The problem is that it doesn't last because all the traits that make the affair possible, dishonesty, thoughtlessness, selfishness, eventually infect the affair. When the gloss comes off the affair, they quickly erode because there is nothing to hold it together. Just ask yourself what kind of woman would have an affair with a married woman? A woman of very low character and intelligence, thats who. So when the fun wears off, there will be nothing to hold the affair together.

Caracal, I too have known of affairs that have lasted for longer than the 2 year mark. They weren't happy ones and the WS was there because they felt like they were Lstuck" because the BS spouse didn't want to reconcile. You sent your WH a Plan B letter stating that you are willing to try, once he gives up his affair.

Also, do not for one minute think that your WH didn't affair down, they always do and he is no different.

About the finding real love. My mo had an affair for almost 2 years(funny huh?) And she has since told me that while she was in it, it felt very real but now looking back she can see how it was nothing compared to what she had for my dad. She went back home to my dad for that reason.

Take care of yourself. Let the grieving happen. You will go through all of the stages of grieving. Just don't too stuck in them and you will be fine.

You should get onto changing that number as quickly as you can cuz that is hurting you. Have you changed the email addy too

Thanks to Everyone and especially to Caracal for the sidetrack.....I'm going back to MY THREAD with the last few posts and will pick it up there.

Thanks

Melody, one thing I have learnt out of this is that I am proud of my deep held beliefs, my loyalty and commitment to those I love. Sure, I am guilty of not showing it in the best way to WH, but it is there, AND HE KNOWS THIS. So although she may be younger, prettier, more impressionable, you are right, she has pursued a married man, even before he was separated. If WH wants to throw away the sort of love I have for him, the commitment I have, that reflects more on his character then mine.

Scotland, you're wisdom is amazing, all of your words above are comforting. But my timeline is much shorter then 2 years, once he files for divorce (eligible May 2012) I am definitely giving up. But I worry that even before then my feelings will have changed... not sure, I know I still love the man he was, but his not caring now, especially not having contacted my mother to ask about her health, that is quickly draining my love bank. In some way I want the bank drained, the pain of loving and not being loved in return really sucks!

I am finally starting to GET Plan A and B. I have been thinking about the analogy of Plan A being holding the door open and laying out the welcome mat... maybe it has been said before, but I have figured out that Plan B is closing the door and leaving the welcome mat out; now WH has to knock, meet conditions and wait to be invited in. And the peace of Plan B is making me realise my conditions are changing.. no longer would I just hurl myself into his arms. The only conditions I put in Plan B letter was to return to Australia, permanently end affair (I didn't go into how, figured could cross that bridge in the unlikely event he wants to reconcile) and want to commit to rebuilding our marriage. If (and it is a big if) he did this, now I realise I would want full confession (and possibly polygraph), an apology to my parents, and marriage counselling of my choosing.

I haven't changed mobile number yet, will at end of month when credit expires (money is tight at moment, I am only working part-time). Not that he will contact, but you are right, it gives me peace of mind. I won't change email address, I know he will not use this (he is a one finger typer and not that computer savvy). He never emails family or friends, etc. I have old job contacts and friends that I may lose in the process of changing the address, don't want this to happen. If he tried to contact me via email I would then reconsider, but I just don't see it happening.

Yeah it was like that for me too. You feel so much more in control once he isnt ALLOWED to call you. Not until he's worthy



I understand why you suspect this. One of the reasons I never saw an affair going on underneath my nose is because my husband is a discerning man when it comes to women - and OW is a pig. He knew her when they were both single and wasnt interested at all. I still dont believe he could actually want her and if she was an 'invisible' OW like yours, I would apply my knowledge of his taste and dream up a hottie.


It doesnt matter either way. He chose you when he was single, happy and free and had the entire world to choose from.

He hardly chose her - she was just a waiting lobster trap, someone desperate enough to settle for someone married. Desperate enough to provide admiration for a cheater. I doubt they're lining around the block for her.

Not only does the WS "affair down" but the WS becomes a person who is no prize at all. The OW looks at the WH and sees a loving, loyal husband and a good father(in my case anyways). Then, the A begins and he becomes a liar, unloyal, unloving and a self-centered, crappy father. Boy, what a "prie" huh? The A has made him into a being that is NOTHING like the person he was pre-A, and that is someone I wouldn't even give a second look to. Unfortunately, I do still know the man that he was, the one he could be.

It is okay to evaluate at the 6 month mark and see where you are. With no children, and still being young, I can see how you would want to move on. I don't fault anyone their timeline. I am just sticking to a minimum of 2 years, because that is what DrH suggested.

Don't worry about your timeline yet, just focus on your healing and creating a life for YOU. You will do great either way.

Yep Indie, exactly what I have done, and I realise how stupid this is to worry about something I have no real knowledge of but glad to hear this isn't abnormal given the circumstances.


The "desperate enough to provide admiration for a cheater" is SPOT ON!!! When he was back in Australia he was walking around with his chest puffed out that far, a total swagger and talking about all the compliments he had received from "married couples" in my absence. I now realise that it was most likely 20-something skank stroking his... err... ego. Things as immature as how he could "handle himself" around other men when challenged, etc. Whereas I have always encouraged him to rein in his aggression when challenged at pubs out of concern for his well-being. I have always complimented him on his achievements and positive qualities, but obviously not enough to satisfy one of his top EN's (didn't really think about it prior to MB). But then a wife cannot really provide the "hero worship" that I suspect is going on in affairland.

I think my WH has some real issues going on, am I coming out of the fog by remembering things that now cause me concern, or am I rewriting history to cope with the betrayal and detach?

I hope this is spot on Scotland. In some ways I can't judge as even in Plan A I had little contact and the affair was going on in another continent. And now I am DARK (but so is he). I have been to see a psychologist and he is certainly helping me start to process, even without all of the answers. I think to process I am just going to have to fill in the gaps with what I think is the case. Interesting, the psych suggested that an affair with someone so much younger would likely have limited life span, but that WH's issues may go much deeper then just this affair.


I have to laugh at this, I keep trying to impose timelines on both my marriage an my healing. My father, a close friend and my psych have told me I am someone who seems to be in too much of a hurry with too much worry about the future... I think I keep trying to speed past the pain, hoping to skip to the happiness. I have always been a planner, know where I am going in life and what I want. Well, the bottom has dropped out of that but I will get myself sorted again, and maybe this is a lesson for me to live more in the present for a while.

Some of what you are thinking about is your taker justifying and saving yourself. Some of what you are seeing is your own fog lifting. Process it all and you will be able to figure it out. Hang tough you are doing great.

Still no attempts at contact from WH... I can't say I am suprised. But I had to put my IM to work for the first time yesterday, and think the timing is probably good to reinforce with WH that this is how things will now go. Although this is probably a relief to him at this stage as he no longer has to feel guilt by my contacting him, I hope in time he will regret that 18 years of being best friends has come to this.

IM text WH just to say she trusts he got my email, and that he needs to change his postal address at bank as one of my friends is still getting his mail (arranged whilst we were travelling Africa). After the first couple of runs I don't think I will need to discuss with IM at all about business, she will just reword accordingly (I am sympathetic to the responsibility she has taken on). I think we are both going to get the hang of this, I hope it stays this easy to remain dark...

I have chosen my IM wisely, when I asked her to contact WH yesterday for her first "job" she wanted to hear what it was to decide if this was necessary contact or my attempt to reach out to WH! Also, after exposure she emailed WH her experience and insight into being a WW (who has since reconciled with BH)... she is now a totally remorseful FWW who can't believe some of her own fog at the time of EA (but I have since reminded her of the "soul mate" comment, lol!) These are the friends I want for life. And it may not hurt WH to have contact with an IM that turned things around in her marriage, at least it may serve to remind him of his own choices (I hope?)

They don't really bother until the iron walls of plan B come down and they CANT get in touch with you. Then they start to panic. Of course at that stage they will mostly just want to yell anyway. If you do a good job you wont even know he's doing this and this is best. Trust me, my head is twisted just getting that landline text even though i didnt listen. I should have clamped down harder - but he never used that line to call me before. Live and learn.

At one stage early on in Plan A my husband sent me a goodbye type text tellling me he didnt want to see or talk to me. He was really nasty and aggressive. This stony silence went on unabated. However when he was packing up his stuff in our empty house I recorded him on a VAR crying like a baby. Plus he took all my love letters with him.



If I were a gambler I would take the odds on this. You'd have to be made of stone, not to regret it. Waywards may be foolish, cruel and selfish but they are not consistent, unfeeling or cold.

If he really could leave 18 years behind without a backward glance, then you would be better off.

Hugs Indie, just remember that you are giving me inspiration with your words and strength, I aspire to get through Plan B as you are! I can't change the landline (is my parent's house) but am definitely going to change the mobile.


This reassures me, even though maybe it shouldn't as I want so badly to detatch from WH. But then I also don't want to be left feeling that the last 18 years were only happy in my mind... I know this is not true logically, as WH has even said that he used to love to come home to me, miss me during the day, that by separating he is losing his best friend. But it is hard to feel that in your heart when you hear the fog babble he spouts and look at his actions. But like you, I have seem him crying like a baby... bizzare isn't it that their own actions are hurting them, and it is THEIR choice! I think I am grateful to be the BW rather then the WH!!!

yup sounds familiar...

It is also true in my case that the OW doesn't have guys lining up to date her, so she settled for trying to steal a married man. Even my husband said that my odds of getting a new husband were better than hers (a weird thing to say, eh?)

Okay, first attempt at contact, I am totally shocked, not even through the first week of Plan B... I thought I might get a contact attempt at about the 6-month mark but not so soon.

I am unsure what to do and want advice... it is an email in response to my Plan B letter. I have not opened it, please be proud of me as of course I am dying of curiosity and my fix!!! Stupid stupid me is also in some way happy that he has tried to contact, I hate that part of me that has such hope and is so grovelling for any crumbs he throws my way!

But I know that it will not contain anything that will talk about reconciliation (likely the opposite) and will be full of nonsense I don't need right now. What I am worried about is that WH may have included personal stuff (though possibly not) and do I really want to have IM read this...

Should I forward to IM despite this as it could just be business, or do I delete it and have IM send text to advise WH of this and remind him all communciation through IM? Advice please...

And now I have to eat humble pie from all of you Plan B vets who told me to change email addy and I was so adamant this would the last possible way he would contact me...

Plan B is for me, and I will stay dark!

Caracal,

I almost offered a bet about how soon it would be until your H tried to contact you. I thought it would be within a week or so.

Now you know why the experts at Plan B recommended that you change your email address. It took only a couple of days for your one-finger-typist wayward husband to shoot you an email in contradiction to your wishes. Of course, you already know this. And he thinks he can access you.

My advice is to delete the email unread and let your IM know. Then CHANGE your email address (preferred) or block your husband (not ideal because he could always use someone else's email).

I defer advice to experienced Plan B'ers if they had different advice. You're right. Plan B is for you. You were sounding so much better the last couple of days.

AM

DELETE THE EMAIL!!!!

Then email your IM and have her email your husband this:

Dear WH, Caracal has stated that she received an email from you today. She has deleted it without reading. Please do not contact her directly as per her letter dated XX-XX. Please send any pertinent information about finances through me, otherwise Caracal will not see it. Thank you for your cooperation.

You need to listen very carefully to me, Caracal. PLEASE LISTEN. He is testing your resolve to see if you mean it BECAUSE PLAN B IS WORKING. He is starting to miss you and it is very likely his affair is not going too well. He will first test your resolve to see if he can get you back without agreeing to your conditions. HE CANNOT SUCCEED. It is imperative that you stay dark right now.

Please have your IM email me and I will help her with any communication. ohmelodylane@aol.com

YEPPERS DELETE. And he hears CRICKETS from you.

This is just the beginning so I would say that you should avoid answering the phone or listening to any messages. Could you turn off your cell or ask someone else to have it for a few days at least(until you can change the number).

When I first got here, I didn't think that the things that they said were going to happen would happen. When it did, I realized really quickly that they knew what they were talking about and I needed to listen to them. So LISTEN TO THEM.

AM (or anyone else IT savvy), how would I block email address? I have a hotmail account. I know changing the email address would be better, but really reluctant as I have built up so many contacts and have had this account for longer then my marriage.

And you should have placed a bet, you may have scored a meal out for you and FWH!

Done, done and DONE!!!

I am listening Melody, I learned the hard way I should have respected your (and other's) advice way back when I first posted and I may not be in quite the mess I am in now

I am following your advice, will contact my IM tonight and give your wording about message to WH, I like it. Thank you so much for the email address, I will also give her this... she has already read your IM Training thread and is taking this really seriously for which I am so thankful (she follows my thread and gives me feedback as well). IM also pointed out that I should be following whatever Melody says So thank you from both of us. I realise the IM role may not always be easy, especially as she was (is) friends with WH and actually probably knows us both best from the past 11 years then other friends / family as she and FBH were also in UK for half of the time we were.

But I am still a stubborn so and so in some ways, and disagree with your belief that WH's affair is likely not going too well and he is missing me. I imagine romance aplenty. I actually believe he probably did not read my email until IM text him about banking matter, and then upon reading it (probably curious as to why IM was contacting him and not me) has sent an email either agreeing to my request for no contact, or denying the affair yet again. Either way I don't want to bother with this. So I still doubt there will be any more attempts at contact, even though I know I should be bowing to all of you vet's experience and knowledge. I just don't believe my WH wants me back, or will ever want me back, irrespective of conditions. This may also be my way of trying not to hope, trying to avoid expectations. My concession... I will try and block WH's email address, am also going to contact my parents to advise should WH contact to not discuss me (though contact unlikely). I have not told my parents what is going on with Plan B given mother's health concerns and stress contributing to this, but now might be a good time as I need to be proactive in avoiding WH. I am also going to go shopping for a new mobile phone and number budget permitting (the new phone is simply an indulgence I think I deserve as I am actually now using WH's old one).

Interestingly, I want to stay dark, I am too tired of the game of chess that was Plan A and WH always seemed to have me checkmated. I no longer want to play the game.

Scotland, you underestimate yourself, I am also listening to YOU as well as them... you are the master Plan B'er from what I hear and read! Question, when I get a new mobile number, do I have IM tell WH that I am no longer on old number so he knows this is futile effort? I can see the pros of him knowing I am not contactable to him any longer, but my IM suggests just let him try on the old number and that is his problem... I worry he will think that his contact is getting through to me... what are your thoughts?

Caracal,

Would it not be better to set up a new email account, copy your email addresses into the account and then send a message to those people informing them that you have changed your address? I have had friends and family do this when they have changed internet providers or were looking for a way to escape the spam coming to their email address. If you decide to keep your current address (not advised), according to these instructions, you can block the unwanted sender (WH) using these steps:

http://email.about.com/od/windowslivehotmailtips/qt/Block_Sender_by_Email_Hotmail.htm

As I said, I was not surprised that your H tried to contact you soon after hearing that you didn't want him to. You had many good years together. He has to be remembering those times and wondering how it would be possible that you would not want to be "friends" with him. Going into Plan B drives waywards crazy.

I disagree with your assessment that life is currently amorous for your husband. His affair is a few months old now. The bloom is starting to come off the rose; real life is starting to creep in; real personalities are starting to show their taker side; and the affair will start to stink. Most affairs fall apart and there is a reason that nearly all affairs end within two years.

Finally, LISTEN to Mel and Scotland and DO what they advise. They are expert at this.

Added: Block all avenues of access to you and then quit worrying about what he is thinking/doing. Simple to say. Not as easy to implement.

AM

How wierd. Have you been living in my house for the last 6 months? This is all stuff she has done to me/is doing to me. Makes you wonder if we are rational creatures at all or just robots following our DNA.
I will keep this post to read when I am feeling like it is all my fault.

I think all BS's have the same fears, I know I do. ((((HUGS))))

I think that after a certain number of years with someone, whose word is consistently truthful, you quite naturally take them at their word when they say things.

After a couple more years it becomes a reflex, almost learned behaviour.

But when an A strikes, even though their word goes out the window, your reflex remains.

I too, take my WH at his word.

He said: "She is my friend, I feel sorry for her"

I took him at his word

He said: "I crashed on a friend's couch last night"

I took him at his word

He said:

"I dont want children, so maybe we should separate"

In spite of the fact that I know my H to be baby crazy, I took him at his word again.

"I love you, you are too big a part of my life to throw away"

In spite of the fact that he was treating me like dirt by the point he said this, I was happy to take him at his word here

Then, when I found out he was a liar, he said: "She has nothing to do with OUR growing apart. People tell me I should fight for our marriage, but sadly I don't want to.

In spite of eveything I had learned - I took him at his word when he said he didnt want our marriage!!!

Silly me.

I think you can agree with my Caracal, that waywards havent got the first clue WHAT they want and are happily 'following their hearts' into a dumpster.

He may not come back, but he might. It will probably all be dependent on how much pain he experiences in Plan B at the hands of a POSOW

I now understand what Indie meant... I cried myself to sleep last night over a stupid email that I did not even read. I need to tighten up my Plan B.


From WH's actions... looks like I need to accept that I will be better off without him. He is treating me like I am the blind spot in the rear view mirror, but rather then checking to see if I am there, he just runs right over me.

Okay, this is a venting session for me about WH's email during Plan B...

I can't understand the masochistic part of me that wants him to contact despite the set back it causes to my recovery. Why do I so desperately want his crumbs? Why can I not detach and let him go as easily as he has forgotten about our 18 years together... WH says he would not be who or where he is today without me, would not have the confidence he has, would not have travelled the world, experienced all that we have... how has he simply turned his back on all of this for a woman he has known less then six months?

I have a simmering anger about his emailing me... What part of my Plan B letter did he not understand. Particularly the "I will only be willing to talk with you if you have ended the affair, are returning to Australia and want to discuss repairing our marriage. Just to make clear, unless you have permanently broken off your affair, and are willing to discuss what both of us would need to do to have a future together, I do not want any form of contact with you". To contact after this, after my line of "I have never been so hurt and devestated in my life", is the ultimate disrespect (and I even mentioned please respect my request)! This is not love, this is not a marriage. I need to start thinking that my H is dead to me, that man no longer exists.

To top it all off, his email did make me hope that maybe part of him was missing me, that Plan B would be too final for him and he was in some misguided way (even though not wanting to meet my conditions) reaching out. But no... IM rang last night to state she text him Melody's recommendation "Caracal states she received email from you, she has deleted this unread, please do not contact her directly as per her email on 12.08.11. Please send any pertinent information about finances through me, otherwise Caracal will not see it. Thank-you for co-operating, IM". And his response to her... the mail at my friend's is for a new visa card and he has tried contacting the bank to give new address but due to error they have sent it to my friend. He would like me to ask friend to forward it to him. I think this is what he was emailing me about... just totally business. Nothing else. So he was not even trying to make himself feel better, just wanting his damn visa card. I spent the next five minutes sobbing, this is what 18 years means to him, a visa card has taken priority.

Indie's comment "If he really could leave 18 years behind without a backward glance, then you would be better off"... well, I think my WH has left behind 18 years with no backwards glance. I am devestated, he just could not care less. His banking is more important then my pouring my heart out in Plan B letter. I just wish I could convince myself I was better off.

Regardless of whether I am dark in Plan B, Plan A , or Plan D, it is no skin off his nose, and I now know that once his banking is sorted, there will be no further contact. Sorry, just needed to get this off my chest. I am not going to let this contact attempt set me back in recovery, I am slowly starting to think that my WH just isn't worth it. Or maybe I am just trying to convince myself of that as it is then easier to let go, give up, whatever.

Sorry about the rant , think I feel better now and can get back to my recovery.

The rollercoaster dips very low at the beginning of plan B. Let it. It is intense, but short lived grief. You will get to a plateau eventually, but first do your crying, do your grieving.

Something I did, which may or may not help, I got all the letters and pictures, mementos togheter. I read, I wallowed, and had a good old cry. I let this go on for as long as it had to. It was at its worst for between three days to a week. I cant actually remember but it was bleak.

Then I packed away the stuff.

The crying and twisting in the stomach eased up.

I have the odd tear here and there still, but I havent had a good ol sob for weeks. It is amazing to me.

I had to keep WHs blanket and pillow on "his side" of the bed for a while and then one night, I woke up after having a dream and I thought he was there. I had to push it onto the floor.

There are still times when I am not thinking and I take out 4 plates for dinner or I divide things into 4. Its funny now but it used to make me cry before

I work in retail and it was MONTHS before I wouldn't look at something and think "WH would like that". It gets better, it really does. Go through all of the steps of grieving it is important.

AM, your words give me hope... though I am starting to realise this affair may just be the beginning of my WH's issues, and even if it ends I am unsure he would reconcile or launch into OW#2. Time will tell... I need to let go of his decisions, his choices.

Indie, this is a hard one to overcome isn't it? All of the babble WH's spew, it is so hard not to believe them. From your thread I know your WH did a super job on gaslighting you, and I know that I have struggled at times to believe my WH is having an affair (even in Plan B I still have some doubts, thinking maybe the relationship just started after separation on the rebound). But these moments are less and less. It is just difficult to get over the sense of desbelief that the H I knew would do this, but the WH is one I don't trust at all.


I am gaining clarity on this, and yep, my WH seems to be making a lot of sacrifices to be with OW. Can a 20-something possibly live up to the expectations he must have of her? I doubt it, not long-term. Meanwhile I worry about my WH hitting rock bottom, but I need to stop being concerned about him and start putting that effort into me.

Rock bottom will be the best thing that ever happens to him. At rock bottom, he can say 'Oh my god - WHAT have I done? I was wrong about everything!'

If he can do this sincerely enough to commit to full recovery (before your love for him runs out) he will get a stupendous marriage - better than before - in return, much as the prodigal son got the fatted calf

It seems to me that the wayards who stay wayward usually have enabling family members (like Peachy's darth) who reach out a hand of help the last minute before the wayward hits RB. This keeps them miserable but just an inch away from hitting the helpful clarity of RB.

I pray for my husband to hit rock bottom, you should pray the same for yours!

Thanks Mehr and Indie, fellow Plan B'ers unite! Into my second week of Plan B, plan on putting some posts up today about random thoughts as I try and process stuff.





I am unsure about whether WH's family are enabling or not... I have visited one sister since exposure (her and her husband will not enable and are supportive although not initiating any contact with me which hurts) but have not heard from any other family I exposed to on his side. I think the other two sisters will be supportive of him if he "is happy". I did try to ring one sister for support after exposure and she fobbed me off with "will call back" and never did. Again, lots of hurt, as she was the sister who I was closest with. Not sure if I just make them uncomfortable or they are siding with WH. And I have no clue about whether extended family or friends initiated any contact. I have even taken to praying to WH's deceased parents, as I (and all other family) have indicated WH would never be able to act like this if his father was alive.. he would have been disowned!

Meanwhile, patience, Caracal, patience.

I think a lot of that not calling back stuff is embarrassment. They are ashamed of their relative and (hopefully) AO on them about this shame!!

Other people knew about the A but were torn about telling (or 'hurting') the BS. Now they feel guilty and dont want to face the person they lied to

Then there are the eejits who think they must really love the AP, in spite of all evidence to the contrary!!

Okay, I have a confession, I have relapsed in Plan B. I have not broken no contact, am still dark with WH and committed to remaining that way. But the email that WH sent last week sent me into a spin, major depression. You are all so right about making sure that he can not contact so I don't have these set backs in recovery. When I say I am not following Plan B as well as I could, I mean I am again obsessing over him and the affair. And I am putting a lot of pressure on my IM, which I know is unfair, and from what I have read, unusual... isn't it usually the WH putting the pressure on, not the BS? But I am desperate for some sort of information on this affair and my WH, and poor IM has more knowledge then I do!

I am ready for the 2x4's, get me back into Plan B, I think I was off to a good start before that email... can't believe something I didn't even read had such an impact.

My IM revealed that the day I received WH's email she received one also about the banking matters. But she also received one in response to an email she sent several weeks ago (after exposure and prior to Plan B) about her affair and her feelings and choices during it. Sort of trying to offer some guidance, but I don't know the full details of the email. WH responded that he had been thinking about her email and was considering calling her, but still unsure. IM told me this under my pressure and also because she wanted me to know that WH was not acting any differently to other WS's with Plan B (and to reassure me that there is an affair, that it is not my imagination!) She has told me that she will not pass any more information about this on to me, whether WH contacts or not. She is in a difficult position really, sort of a conflict of interest, but she seems quite capable of keeping it separate (I just need to ease up on her!) And strangely enough, I have started to calm down again, not sure if this is because I have had my "fix" of WH, or because I again have hope that our marriage is still salvagable as WH may be starting to contemplate change. Either way, I will get the focus back to me, not him... as I really can't believe anything that comes out of his mouth in fogland.

And IM is pretty confident WH will not make any further attempt to contact me, but encouraged me to change phone number for own piece of mind.

It is because you've had a fix, you won't get through withdrawal if you keep getting fixes.

Without getting fixes, you hit the rocks, its very painful, but it is SHORT LIVED

You are trying to stop yourself hitting the rocks by getting fixes. Dr H is right, feelings should be treated as an addiction.

Addictions can be dealt with by preventing the 'mid way' behaviours which lead to you doing things which are bad for you.

A gambler would say

Red behaviours
Placing a bet

Amber behaviours
Watching sport
going to a casino
visiting race track
mixing with gambling friends

green behaviors
developing new hobbies
making new friends
keeping busy


In YOUR case

Red behaviours
Contacting WH
Allowing WH to contact you
Pressing IM to break their role

Amber behaviours
Leaving gaps in plan B which let him contact you
Having triggers around which remind you of him/affair

Green behaviours
Going dark
Making plans
Having treats
Keeping busy
Having fun
Visualise a WH free life
Mking up positive mantras

You get the jist, fill in the rest of these lists yourself

If you dont do any ambers, then you wont ever get to red.

Thanks for the rap on the knuckles Indie, and the insights... I have to get back on the wagon as they say. But I am currently feeling a lot of sadness... need to focus my thoughts more.

Had a great day out with brother and his girlfriend on weekend, though I am observing how many LBusters they have. I find I do this a lot now with friend's / family relationships, and I find this really difficult as I just don't see that H and myself had that many problems prior to March this year... yet surely WH couldn't fall so far and fast unless there were serious underlying relationship issues? I am trying to figure out in my head how much of this affair is due to our relationship difficulties or due to WH having some void in himself that he needs to fill... so here are my ramblings.

I want to reflect on the marriage so I can learn and better myself. I do know my flaws and responsibilities in the marriage, and am working on changing these in my relationship with others. I was guilty of AO's (usually in the form of bitchy comment and stomping off) and DJ's. I did the occasional IB (two girl's weekends away in last five years) but I don't think either of us had problems with IB, nearly everything bar work was done together. I realise I was not meeting his top EN's in the two months prior to leaving London, and also the eight months before we left for Africa in 2009. I was neglecting him, too complacent really and we both had to invest a lot of time and energy into saving hard for our travels. But we still had fun together, always had conversation, affection. But I guess they aren't his top EN's, I think admiration is number 1 that OW is meeting.

But I am also starting to think my WH is acting as a very lost and emotionally immature person right now... I am trying to look for signs leading up to his total sense of entitlement he now has, but am still foggy myself. There was an episode two years ago when we went out with friends to the pub, and I returned home when the pub shut asking him to come with me as the next day we had agreed we would spend the day going somewhere nice and he would cook me breakfast. Instead he went out clubbing with friends by himself (this was not normal for us, we usually went together) and I got very annoyed and felt hurt over this. He got very drunk, and ended up sleeping on the couch / bathroom floor because he was so ill (again, he is not typically a big drinker and we did not sleep separately other then this night or on very occasional nights apart with family) Anyway, I found out a few months later from friends that he had lost his false tooth on that night, whereas he had told me that he broke it at work and needed it replaced a few days after the night out. He had specifically asked these friends not to tell me that he lost it, to cover up for him. I should have seen the warning signs with this level of dishonesty. Although I laughed about it when friends accidentally let it slip, I told him later that I was hurt that he had covered it up rather then just accepting responsibility for being a drunken idiot and doing something stupid.

I can also see that in the last few years WH has become increasingly angry with others... so much so that a colleague actually called him Tourettes due to his verbal aggression. Most of his anger was about people acting to be what he perceived as disrespectful to him or someone he cared about, or acting in some way outside his control. I think my WH has huge control issues, and even when back in Australia he agreed that he would use ultimatums with me when he felt I was "out of control". I do not consider myself as someone who is out of control, although I can be stubborn, we both can be. And relationships should not be about control anyway. WH has said that he considers himself an "easygoing guy" and in many ways with friends he is, but with me and his family I would not say he is always so easygoing. I suspect his anger is a sign that there is something else going on, and I think he is actually attributing his anger to me, which I know is not right as most of his anger was at work (the job he has previously hated but has rushed back to London for).

His anger was rarely directed at me, but when it was it was nasty and a very very personal attack. Very degrading, and on a few occasions was in front of friends / family.

Looking back on the past is important.

You have to grieve and to process some

Then you will reach a point where you say enough.

You haven't broken Plan B, you just skirted to tthe edges a bit

Its so easy to be tempted to break it, that you cant really.

Like you with the email, I came within seconds of breaking plan b when I got that text, all because I left the stupid landline unchanged. Amber behaviour that nearly went red.

Just keep out of the red!!

Breathe, get hugs, get sleep make plans to treat yourself.

You're doing fine

Well Indie, its good to know that someone else, whom is very capable I may add, is keeping a close eye on the plan Bers around these parts. You are doing great girl keep it up.

Now, Caracal, this is normal after effects of near or direct contact. Do you think that you were pressing your I'm for info as much before that email from your WH as you were after?

Your I.M. has taken on a great deal by agreeing to be your I'm and a great Plan B can not be performed without one. It is integral to your personal recovery that your I.M. not give in again. You also need to be accountable for your actions and not press you I.M. She has taken on a most difficult task try to make it as easy on her as possible. You don't want to burn her out and need to go looking for a new one.

In short, the feelings you are experiencing are normal after any type of contact so don't do anything to experience that again.

And in the future, just remember that the vets know what they are talking about and they have seen it all and then some. And your WH, he is very typical. Which is good since these plans work best with typical waywards. Oh and BTW, a lot of affairs happen in good marriages. An affair isn't a gage of the wellness of a marriage, what it is is an indication of weak boundaries on the part of the WS.

I am not doing so well in Plan B... staying dark, but having a very hard time with the sadness, the grief is overwhelming. I am scared that this still is not rock bottom, and I don't know how much lower I can sink, feel like this is drowning. Going to work today with puffy eyes from a bad night... not looking good at all.

I feel that Plan B has simply given the happy couple the freedom to go off into the sunset without having to be reminded at all about me, the BW who is coming apart at the seams.

How on earth do Plan B'ers stop the thoughts of the affair and the WS? I don't think that much of OW (actually, I think WH is likely taking advantage of her given her age) but am obsesing about him, someone who is not worthy of this given his selfishness.

Every day is just going through the motions, pretending for others benefit, trying to fake it till I make it. In my situation, with the geographical distance between us and the separation since 12.06, I know I should be getting over this, but am not. I go out, visit friends, work, apply for other jobs, have baths, etc, but I can't really say I am having happy moments... what am I doing wrong?

OMG, I am having my own pity party here, sorry!

You only went into Plan B a minute ago! Its not a pity party, You are EXACTLY where you should be.

Do you know why? Because your heart hasn't been hardened and calloused like the waywards' have been. In your case, grieving leads to healing.

Unlike you, I was close enough to OW that I managed to get a good look at the two of them post exposure. They didnt look like a happy couple. They were snarling, gaslighting, pits of depression and rage.

I think we can all do without that sort of happiness, cant we? I can even pity it.

Grieve at this stage. I went through all the stages of grief like clockwork although it varies with people. I have been thinking of setting up a thread on these stages because I really felt them.

Dont pretend or fake it. Tell people you are hurting. The sooner you do your crying, the sooner it is done.

Caracal, you are going through Withdrawal. That is completely NORMAL. And to top it all off, you get to grieve too. Fun, eh? Not even a little, I know.

All of these thoughts are normal, because your mind is trying to make the hurt stop, and it is trying to convince you to talk to him, to be in his world again, because it hurts so much. Don't give in and it WILL get better. Have you read Indie's thread? How about mine? There are a lot of threads with people who did some really great Plan Bs, and some who didn't. There is lessons to be learned from both, because the ones who weren't as good at it, you can "feel" their pain and see how unnecessary it was. When you are feeling down, let yourself cry for a set amount of time, and then let yourself scream at WH and the universe(without actually contacting him of course).

Also, do you write a journal? It really helped me get my feelings out, and I could process them. Looking back on them now, I don't even recognize that person.

We are letting you grieve, so we're taking it easy on you, ATM. We will let you know when your thoughts are harming your personal recovery.

Come here for support, vent, and read. You will make it. Do you have support IRL? Someone who can give you a real hug(NOT A MAN).

Indie, it is so sad but I am envious of you being able to take comfort in a sense that SL and OW are miserable together. You did a great job on exposure and were witness to the karma bus in a way. With absolutely no idea what is going on in Planet Wayward, I imagine everything is roses... whether it is or not I have no way of knowing, but with weak exposure, and anyone capable of exerting influence on WH being in another continent, it is likely he is just having the time of his life with younger OW. I really believe my Plan B is what he would prefer, as he now does not even have to be reminded of betraying or hurting me.

But I do pity his moral slide, he has crossed boundaries that he once would never have imagined doing.. and it must take a lot of energy I imagine to convince oneself that this slide is acceptable. Lying to others is bad enough, but lying to yourself... not somewhere I ever want to go.


Come on Indi, I am waiting!!!

Scotland, I have read your and Indie's thread, these are both very helpful. Currently reading sexymamabear's, maybe not the best one to read at the moment as it has the ending I so hope for rather then just personal recovery. But still learning lots.

What suprises me about some threads (like SMB's and princessmeggy's) is how the situation just seems so hopeless, with WH's having separated and having so little contact if any. But it can change so quickly. I need to be very careful with my thoughts, as I am still tend to think that my nightmare started so quickly and unexpectedly that maybe we will also wake up out of it in the same way... with a lot of hard work on recovery. But I can not keep hoping and waiting for WH to "come to his senses". I wish I had been exposed to the affair so that I could lose my love for WH quicker... I seem to be in limbo because I have had so little exposure to WH if that makes sense? So I still very much have positive memories of marriage and him...

I am not keeping a journal, I did initially but did not find this very helpful. Just made me cry more. And I am avoiding contact with men, I know I am very vulnerable right now and have even had the thought of revenge affair just so I could have some physical comfort and get my own back on WH (not that he would care!) I will not do this, I recognised the need and have put the boundaries in place. I do not want to make myself sink to the same level as WH, nor treat someone else so disrespectfully. And I would hate myself after, I know what my views of marriage are now more then before WH's affair. And I like myself for these beliefs.

But I do miss hugs... and hugs from husband especially.

Caracal, it most definitely is NOT all rainbows, roses and unicorns in A-ville. See, their A is built on very selfish people trying to get whatever they want. It WILL IMPLODE. It WILL. Who knows how long it will take? It depends on the people involved, but I can GUARANTEE that is would last LONGER if you were still involved. Stay out of the drama, the A will implode faster that way, but that's not why you are doing it.

I am not proud of some of my behaviour at the minute, mainly towards my parents and I don't know if I even understand it myself. My parents and I have always been very close, especially my mum and I. When in UK I was on phone to her nearly every second day, just to chat. My WH used to always tease me about this, think he felt sad about it as it reminded him of his loss.

But at the moment I simply cannot talk with my parents. They are on an extended holiday, and calling me to check I am okay. But it acts as a trigger for me, and even if up to that point I have been sort of emotionally okay, talking with them makes me start to unravel and sink very quickly. Last night my dad rang, and I actually said I had to go, I couldn't talk. My poor father was on the other end of the line begging me not to hang up, so I tried to chat and failed miserably. Then he asked me to speak with my mum, and I just couldn't do it. Hanging up the phone cued another bout of sobbing. I text them later to say I love them both so much but just can't talk right now and that they shouldn't worry. Yeah right, I know if the shoe was on the other foot I would be worrying like crazy.

Why am I hurting the people who love me, why am I letting WH's actions effect the relationships I have with others? I think my parents contacting me triggers me into feeling betrayed as they have also left me at a time when I need them most, just as WH has. I know this is not rational, not mature, but on some level it is how I feel. But to punish my poor parents when it is really WH who has caused me to have these abandonment issues is unfair... I know that, but keep doing it anyway. My actions are no more excusable then WH's, hurting the ones who love us. I must stop this behaviour.

Thanks for reading, anyone else had relationships effected like this or acted unfairly to loved ones?

He as a WW is no longer the same man that you married and therefore you as a BW are not the same either.

The BS exhibits a cocktail of emotion which is very powerful and you will be able, at a later stage, to see this more clearly.

With time the emotions will fade and a more balanced attitude will prevail but at the moment you are the captive of the roller coaster and your only option is to allow yourself to experience the triggers at full force.

Believe me all of us BW have been there and it does get better.

Oh Caracal,

I am so sorry you are hurting so badly now. The rollercoaster of emotions is awful. I don't remember everything I did in the weeks after D-day. I do remember driving alone down a narrow country road at 85 mph, screaming as loud as I could.

I can't remember if you have thought about a low dose of anti-depressants to even things out. I resisted asking for them for quite some time. But I really did need them. Remember that this is likely the worst thing that will ever happen to you in your lifetime.

Your parents will understand. I am certain they wish they could shoulder the pain for you if they could. When do they return from their trip?

AM

Caracal,

I used to do that too... not being able to talk to my parents because I was so choked up. My parents were not on vacation.

Thinking back on it, I believe it was just my guard breaking down with them because they were always my protectors and safe haven.

Betrayal brings on the most intense emotions you will ever feel. Allow yourself to feel it and work through it. It starts with huge waves that get smaller and smaller with time.

Hang in there. Don't beat yourself up for feeling pain.

(((hugs)))

Did the exact same thing too. Even though my parents and sis were amazing - got into a snarling rage with them.

I havent argued with my parents or sis since I was a teenager sharing the bathroom!

Made me realise I was going through the most painful thing ever and I apologised when I was short with them - they understood.

Another thing - and this was very odd - is that even trusting my amazing family felt dangerous.

I remember looking at the people who loved me and thinking - would you ever betray me? Even though they had done nothing to deserve that.

But my best friend and husband had just stabbed me in the back, the rug had been pulled and my feet were not steady yet.

One time I had a bad dangerous skid in the car on black ice and for weeks afterward, though the weather was fine, i kept expecting the road to spin madly beneath me again.

It went away. So did this.

Thanks for all of the supportive words.

AM, my parents are expecting to return mid October... so I have a while to get through! Really reluctant to go on anti-depressants, just a personal choice, though I am realising that if withdrawal / grief continues for another two weeks I have to do something... I keep hoping things will level out a bit with Plan B.

Indie and Poker, it really is reassuring to hear that I am not the only one who treated others poorly. Still feel crap for doing it though!

Indie, not sure if you have experienced this or not (and maybe if you have it does not disturb you as much as it does me). But I am finding it so insulting that others misguidedly keep telling me "at least you don't have kids", "move on, no children are involved"", "be grateful, it is easier for you with no children" or some other rubbish.

Having read posts here with kids involved, hats off as I know it can make some things more difficult, especially with Plan B and I figure healing must be so much more difficult as WS remains in your life in some way. Many posts on this forum talk about how having kids helped them cope with the crisis, gave them something to focus on, made then want to try to save the marriage for the sake of the children. So for those of us who don't have them, but are still trying to save the marriage just because we love WS and believe in our vows, I think we deserve some recognition too. And the pain is not any less because we don't have children, it does not make it any easier to move forward and let go of the person we trusted most.

Maybe this gets up my nose so much as WH spewed fogbabble about how he wouldn't leave me if we'd had kids... his version of making himself out to be a good guy, as it is okay to cheat on loving wife of 11 years cause she ain't barefoot and pregnant! Another rant over...

caracal, those people who are saying that to you are just doing what they think will help. Of course it doesn't. While it is sometimes easier because we have children to focus on during our grief, as you said, it isn't all too good on us when there are visits, and other things dealing with the children and WSs. You are still hurting. In some ways, I would assume that the BSs who don't have children feel almost like they wasted those years with their WS. And some of us with children feel like it might be easier if we didn't have them. Read all my ramblings, what I am really saying is that is sucks no matter what.

I too lashed out at my parents. My dad would call me, which was very odd behaviour, and I would just say, "Yea, I am okay."

I didn't use ADs, but now I really wish that I had. Believe me, if I were to attempt MR, I will RUN to the doctor's because I won't be able to deal with that alone.

Just keep processing and try finding things to keep your mind off of your sitch. Do you read any books? How about TV shows? Comedies? You need to do something to raise your spirits.

It's not just you.....I do the same thing.
I call it a "Self imposed exile".
And to my Family and the people who care about me, I tell them why I do it.....because talking too much or too deeply triggers a bad emotional reaction.
So.....ask them to give me the time and space to let me self-heal and we will talk about it after.
My very inner circle are the only ones who can see me crying or distraught.....and even then it's on my terms.
Do what you need to do to maintain your emotional strength and stability.
I know exactly what you mean and how you feel.


AMEN to that!
The 2 weeks after my D-Day was like a bad dream state.....just terrible and now it seems like a blur.

Caracal,

I took a long time before I started anti-depressants. I had always thought of myself as strong emotionally and able to problem solve logically. My H's A changed me though. I started the anti-depressants several months after D-day. I wish I had done it sooner. It helped to even things out. The other thing I had to acknowledge was that I had PTSD after my H's A.

Re. your H's comment about not leaving you if you had children - fogbabble. If it weren't that comment, it would have been some other comment. Justification of horrible behavior is standard for waywards.

Do you spend time with friends?

AM

Another "yes" to anti-depressants. They do not make a person feel "strange" or dulled. I was on an AD for a few years due to anxiety disorder and they really did help. It takes a couple of weeks for the brain chemicals to start to be affected, but they really do help to even out the emotions and help the thinking to be more clear.

Also, my H has had long-standing chronic depression during stressful periods of his life, and the meds helped tremendously. The earlier meds affected his sexual performance and drive, and that was pretty bad downside, but the newer ones don't have that effect at all. We found them to be a God-send.

Try to look at it the same way as any illness. In the case of diabetes or heart disease, most of us would take the necessary meds. In the case of depression, the brain chemicals are disrupted and need to be put back to rights. They really do help. And when no longer needed, you can wean off, under the guidance of the doctor, of course.

I have a feeling your thread will really help other BSs, you sum up so well how it feels - and I thought I was the only one who got irritated at others!



Again I get this totally. It really stung when people said that because we had been planning to start trying in the next few years.

As well as mourning our relationship I was mourning the end of all my plans.

I remember watching Young Victoria and when she tells Prince Albert she is pregnant, he falls to his knees and kisses her stomach. He loved her so much he wanted two of her.

At this time, I knew nothing of the A, but I knew I was unloved.

My WH even used the children issue as a way to control me - he said he didnt want to have them with someone who he wasnt getting on with

Then he used the 'we want different things but I love you' speech to put one foot out of the door and keep me from guessing the truth and to show her he was 'trying' to leave.

But if we did have kids, he would have been just as selfish - and their hearts would have been broken too.

Hi all, I have gone quiet for a few days, reviewing the past few months and how dramatically my life has changed, weighing up all of the advice you have all given as well.

I am finding it hard to believe that on Valentine's Day this year husband was telling me to stop contraception, we were on holiday in Africa having the time of our lives, planning our long-awaited return to Australia, everything was soooo good. And now... well, we all know how now feels!

I went for a job interview in a city this week, thinking I need to move to try to get into more of a social scene. Having only been back in the country for a few months, and not exactly in the mood to meet people, I am feeling very isolated (live in country location as well where a single 30-something is a rarity). Will wait and see about the job.

Feeling pretty bummed out... I just closed our travelling website down. Had my IM whom I have dubbed Yoda back this up for me, as I started looking at the photos of our smiling faces and just feel disbelief about what WH is doing. Prior to Plan B I told him he needed to save the photos if he wanted any, and now I wonder if he even bothered as how could he look at these and not regret his decisions? I really struggle to accept what he has done, it all feels in some sense so unreal, but I guess this is my way of not wanting to admit that he has chosen someone else over me.

I also went to see a solicitor, and the outcome was not exactly positive... we split our assets 50/50 and I wanted to know if my student debts and the car we have in the UK could also be split... solicitor has told me to tread very carefully as there is a chance WH could actually fight me on the 50/50 of the assets given some of this came from family inheritence. So WH is debt-free and driving a car that I paid for, I have debt and am loaning my mum's car... ARGHHH!!!

Actually, I feel a bit better having gotten that all off my chest... IRL I feel I am dumping too much on IM and don't really talk much about this to other friends / family... so THANKS ALL.

Come here and vent lots, honey...

As well as helping you, you help others with your story!

Isn't MB marvellous?

I know EXACTLY how you feel.
My WW and I are well known in our chosen sport....pictures of the two of us were ALL OVER the place.
Now the WW is spitting mad that she has been exposed in that sport.
"Regret"?......seems like you and I both wonder if our spouses see what they have done?!?!
Hang On Girl!!
Don't give up!!!

The theme about not having children..I totally agree with what you are saying ladies.

It seems before children, that we have the freedom to devote all the energy on each other.

There is a depth that is built during that time, whether toxic or just a few issues, it is there.

Sure is!

Bill, I don't think they do know what they have done... I doubt my WH even spares our accomplishments and happiness one minute of thought. I really believe he must have totally compartmentalized, and blank out any thoughts of me as I honestly just don't see our marriage as being that bad... totally the opposite, I think we had a lot of strengths, just got complacent and had a rough couple of months due to life events...

Sometimes I think WH and I may have been in a different marriage. Today I realised that it is not only the trust I have lost in WH, but the trust issues I now have with others (OMG, another relationship does not even bear thinking about yet! ) But perhaps most importantly, I had an epiphany that I have also lost a lot of trust in myself, and that is a really hard one. His gaslighting and my still being largely in the dark about the A and OW makes me question myself a LOT, and also I always thought I was quite intuitive about others... clearly not in this case! I imagine taking some positive steps to rebuild my life will slowly restore my trust in myself... now I just need to take my own advice and do it!


Oh Bill, you must be one of the most optimistic posters on this forum... gotta love ya, platonically of course I am sadly wavering wildly on giving up on WH, the hope I sometimes get (for no apparent reason) makes me swing wildly and I don't know if it is healthy for me. But I won't give up on me... Plan B huh?

Yep, and it makes withdrawal AWFUL!!! But the crying is nowhere near as long or as sharp in week 3, and that in itself is progress. You're right though CP, that before kids there is certainly a lot of UA, it is an easy EN to meet.

Plan B grieving for losing WH, in-laws, friends, our marriage, and a part of myself that was a wife is added to by grieving for the future plans we had, the children, grandchildren, growing old together. I know immediately after D Day I avoided being around kids too much, I just felt utter desolation thinking that what with waiting for a divorce, my emotional baggage and newfound trust issues, and my age, I may not have kids now. Another possible consequence of a broken marriage, but nothing is set in stone Now I somehow got very off topic, venting again but thanks CP!

I hope this post makes sense, and isn't as confused as I am at the moment . I am in something of a conundrum about Plan B... I had a terrifying reality check listening to an archived Dr Harley radio clip. Dr Harley responded to an email from a BW who had been in Plan B 3 years. Although happy she STILL loved her WH.

I know love is not a switch we can flick (although I wish it was!). I know Plan B is also for my recovery, not all about WH... BUT I think part of my problem is that my love bank is still pretty full... I just haven't been exposed enough to the lies, deceit and affair for me to lose love for him. I haven't had enough contact with the alien that possessed my husband to lose the love. I hate to think that in three years I could still love him, it scares me. I want to be able to move on and possibly have kids if I find someone I love and trust (and who will adhere to MB!). I can't do that and be fair to another man and myself if I am still pining for WH.

This isn't very MB I know, I am talking about trying to kill off my love for husband when the purpose is to try to recover marriage. But if recovery is not possible, what then? What happens to the love that Plan B has protected?

Well sweety glad your here
Trying to "fix yourself" does not work overnight

Actions that are healthy will work over time

You cannot kill the love that you have for him, and believe me trying will make it worse for you

You don't want to kill that love , it's what is keeping you human, instead of a wayward

What would be the healthiest thing of course, would be that he saw it through to it's promise. We don't allways see that, but we must trust another way, not abandon it

I can tell you stories, of how that sort of desperate thinking, can bring you to the dark side, but I just want to get to the point. You must learn to love him and let him go if he won't love you.

I am talking about love, not in love and you will get what I am saying eventually, as you relearn to take care of yourself, because he left the job.

But I promise love will return and it will be deeper and more real, give the plan time, and don't you try and fix yourself. You are fine, it's a lie that you feel that your not.

Hang in there

Thank you CP, you have actually bought tears to my eyes, I so needed those words today.

You won't kill your love by staying in touch with him, but your sanity. Your love for him will fade in time in Plan B.

Our WS's are in that "Alien Fog"......and ANYTHING is possible in their minds inside that fog.
That "self doubt" is very hard on us.....we (betrayed spouses) are terribly injured and wonder if we will be able to Love again, trust another Lover again, or be totally committed to a relationship again.
For me?.....it's a Faith issue......God will guide me.....I HAVE to go with that!


Again YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!
Each day I have wild swings about what is the best way to proceed.
One minute I remember my Wife as she was pre-affair, the wonderful woman I met, fell in Love with and Married.
THAT WOMAN is the one I miss terribly EVERY DAY!
THAT WOMAN is the one who I think of 90% of the day!
THAT WOMAN is the LOVE OF MY LIFE!
But......the woman who is "in there" now......IS literally an Alien to me.
If the fog doesn't lift for her......If she doesn't come back to her senses......I couldn't have a marriage with that woman!.....it would be impossible.
The woman who exists inside my Wife today.....doesn't appear to accept much blame, doesn't appear to be remorseful, blames me for everything, and is MAD AS SPIT that I exposed her because NOW her "nice girl, loyal wife" facade has been pulled away.
THAT makes me the bad guy in her eyes.
But...for today....one more day.....I stay in Plan A.
I have another card and note going out to her this week......it says "I Love You! I'm still here!"
God tells me to wait.....so I wait.
It's a day by day battle INSIDE of us too!
YOU are not alone!
I LOVE YOU TOO!! (platonically of course :))

While I'm waiting......


Is your Love Bank full of Love for your Spouse?.....or Memories of what they once were?
That's what I'm asking myself these days.
The last time I sat in the presence of my Wife I looked into her face and did NOT see my Wonderful Wife......I saw a confused, angry, selfish person trying to appear "with it".
It was difficult to be around "that person" who my Wife has become.
No....you cannot turn off the Love switch. But that Spouse you have today ISN'T the one you Love!
I say that for myself as much as I say it for you!

The Waywards have as much emotional responsibility in that as we Betrayed Spouses do.....maybe even more.
But in Plan B......we Betrayed Spouses have the option of letting go.
And THAT is a painful revelation.

Caracal, here is a thread that may help with just this.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=162681&Number=2469581#Post2469581

Caracal, listen to this radio clip about Plan B:

click here

This is just what I am afraid of too!


Makes no difference in my opinion. I have found out soo much about my wh, he is deceitful to the core but I long for the version of him who made feel good, even if that was just the surface.

I want him to the person he COULD be. And there is no reason why he shouldnt be that person either. Except for idiocy. So I grieve for him and for me.



I do not know personally of course, because I have only been Plan Bing a bit longer than you.

But here is what I HOPE happens to it.....

It gets wrapped up in tissue paper, like my wedding dress. Or in a special box like my photo album.

Just like these things, the love for wh will necesarily have to be put somewhere out of the way, to make room for the items I need in everyday life.

Of course I will have be able to take it down and see it whenever I want, but most of the time I will be too busy to do that.

Like the first few times I peeked in at the boxed wedding dress, I may be tempted to put it on, and return to that day in my mind if not in reality.

But the day comes when it doesnt fit any more. The day comes when it is really very much in the way because your life is so full.

You never lose the nostalgia though or the appreciation for what was a great day. I HOPE.

You will always love the best parts of him and not always love the dreadful ones.
You will, if he doesn't come back to rebuild, you can be able to move onward.

And...lol......that clip you heard said the BS was 6 years into a dark plan B.

I like what Mulan has said "Plan B isn't just for married people".

It isn't a bad thing to stay in..................and.......feelings of love for someone you chose to vow loyalty to is never a bad thing. You can keep the feelings and be proud of yourself for still having them. They don't define you as a person though. You define yourself through a life well led.

It's interesting listening to that clip. It would seem that the darker the Plan B, the more likely your love will maintain for the WS. Thank you ML. I hope this all helped you Car, and it's always good to know that you are completely NORMAL.

Scotland, thank you for that link... it was just what I needed to learn about and to hear that I am not the only one who has considered the consequences of Plan B for the BS $LB.

I have a lot to digest with that thread... need to take some time and sort through what it means to me.

Lucky I read Scotland's link to Love Bank Units during Plan B before listening to this again Mel. Because I got it wrong, not three years, but SIX! SIX years!!! The more I read and learn, the foggier (to put it politely) those WS's are.

Love like this is a gift that I would never want to risk losing.

As Friday afternoon rolls in, I put my dancing shoes on to start the weekend rain dance.

All rain directed to London, so WH can slosh around in affairland, as somewhere under the alien my real husband longs for sunshine, bbq's and being outdoors.

I know, I know, not very Plan B thoughts... but no 2x4's allowed, it has felt like a looong week and I am in need of a break for the weekend. I have been very very tempted to break Plan B this week and go to Plan FU, but have stayed strong regardless. And will continue to do so. So if the thought of WH wet and miserable helps, so be it.

And I haven't even started on plans for the longest and coldest British winter on record yet

My IC asked me a question today that totally threw me.

"What if WH walked in that door right now, totally remorseful... what would you say to him, what would your reaction be?"

And I was speechless.

I realise I have blocked all thoughts of recovery, it just seems so unlikely.

But in doing that I have not really thought about what I would want... my EP's. I did list to IC honesty and openness, possibly polygraph, changing phone and email, etc. My list has grown since writing Plan B letter, which originally only included permanently ending affair, returning to Australia and committing to rebuilding our marriage. So there is some progress... when I wrote the letter I just thought recovery was so unlikely my conditions were pointless in some way. I still do really, recovery in my case seems against all odds... but what if?

But what would my actual REACTION be.

IC thinks I am sitting on a lot of unexpressed anger... likely right. I certainly SHOULD feel a lot of anger, and occasionally it does surface, but only fleetingly. I WISH it would stay longer, it makes coping so much easier.

Maybe as my mother would say, I would "knock his block off!" I know if I don't choose to do it, I could start selling tickets as the queue is growing...

Sorry I don't really have a point to this post, just sharing.

You're allowed to "just share" on your thread, it helps others who are lurking.

I don't know about sitting on a bunch of anger, in Plan B I seem to not be as angry at my WH as others have been when not in plan B. When you focus on your own life and creating a new one that doesn't include your WH you let go of the anger more quickly. Recently, the only times I am angry at WH is when I find out things, especially when they have to do with the kids.

There are times that you will get angry with your WH, but just like the sad times, it will be less often and not last as long.

I hope you don't think that because you would actually reconcile with your WH that that means you aren't angry enough. There are many of us here who would still recover with our WSs and some of them have done some pretty bad things while high on their APs.

Have a good weekend, and do something for YOU. What will it be? Nails? Massage? Join a book club? Watch a funny movie? What can you think of?

Personally, I'm for knocking his block off
I know that's not very "Christian "but it's real

I get what you were saying about how they eventually believe thier own lies. Words are important.

"Life and death are in the tounge"

As it says in the good book

Hang in there

Oh you want at least one nice day for them. OW is saying 'He's such a grouch but I'm sure it's just the weather, it's not ME' Then there's a sunny day and guess what POSOW? It is you!!!

Besides which I'm not working this weekend!

Caracal,

Just thinking about you and hoping you are having a fun weekend.

AM

Praying for you and the long distance A plan.

You are awesome!

I know what my flaws in Plan B and recovery are... I am NOT focussing on creating a new life for myself. This is likely why for me the sad times are not less often.

I need to want personal recovery, and although I long for the pain and hurt to go away, I know I am not doing enough to help myself.

Two months since D Day and a month of Plan B... I think my withdrawal is going to be one of the longer ones, certainly not the 3-4 weeks I had hoped for. And I realise that I need to take responsibility for my recovery, as I seem to be letting the grief overwhelm me.

Why can I not let WH go, and move forward in my life? I am clinging to the love I have for a man who now exists only in my memory... but knowing all of this I STILL don't move forward.

No Scotland, I actually like that I would reconcile with WH REGARDLESS of feeling angry, sad or hurt. I feel proud of my values towards marriage. And you are right, some other BS have reconciled when their WS has acted possessed!

What I can do for me... heading off to a spin class, have been saying that I will go for weeks but haven't done it. Thanks for the support.

Ha ha ha! My mother would be proud!

Well, sometimes all a bully understands is a punch in the nose...

Thanks AM and Peachy, all of you are an awesome support.

I did have some fun yesterday with the munchkin nephew. Painting and trying to teach him not to cheat when playing board games!

It has been a tough week, and I really don't know why. I have hit some very very low points on the coaster ride, and those dark moments are DARK.

I was offered the job I went for in a city... I should have been happy. Instead I turned it down. I just feel incapable of making this sort of decision at the moment, almost like I am paralysed. My IC thinks I am trying to rush things, and that the first six months I should avoid major decisions, so maybe I am just being too hard on myself. And in my line of work, the jobs will always be there. It is just that I am not used to feeling so aimless, I have always been someone who makes a plan and works to reach the goal. Totally not what I am doing now... maybe my lesson out of this is to live much more in the present, and master the art of patience (something I have never been so great at).

On a positive, I feel more upbeat today. One day at a time...

Caracal,

Glad you feel upbeat today, but kinda sorry that you turned down the job. Why did you, do you think? It's OK, and very well may be not a good time to bite off a new challenge. Just wouldn't want you to get gun shy about your own capabilities. Good Lord! Look what you've done in such a short time, girl! And, making a Plan and sticking with it? You're doing that now, so stay proud of that.

(PS: my niece at 4 was so crafty trying to cheat at Candyland! Oh the tears from that little drama-queen when she was called on it! LOL!)

Because it is a new life, and the continueation of one stopped short. Its like he decided to stop the train and get off, and you are left alone in the journey.

You were together a long time and I bet you counted on H as you made descisions in what was going on in your life, and he became part of it. These things do not go away overnight, and there are right and worong ways to purge some of the old habits...right ways include..self help, excercize, involvement with good friends, work projects, reading, counselling, prayer and meditation...Wrongest way is to move on with a new man right now when you are still reeling from WH antics..

Think of where you stopped short in life, and move on from there, while still giving him a ever closing door that he has a chance at for awhile, but don't stop moving forward for yourself.

As far as guys go, you will know in a year or two when you are really ready, and not just lonely and heartbroke. Work on getting over the heartbreak first by working on yourself.

Oh my, the Plan B coaster ride sure keeps things interesting!

Weird night. Started thinking that I just don't know if I could make it through recovery even if WH wakes up and meets my conditions. I had not really thought about just how difficult recovery would be.

WH and I have never had relationships (emotional or physical) with anyone else. He has turned something that was so pure, into something impure; he has tainted it. I am feeling disgust for him.

I think I should try some new sleeping meds, the ones I am on clearly don't knock me out enough if I am thinking all this!

Confusing thoughts really, I still long for recovery, for the love we once shared, but now doubt I would ever be able to fully recover the respect and admiration I once had for him.

I know what you mean Caracal. I was my WHs first gf. We had only had SF with each other. I had a thought while in Plan B that OW KNOWS how I have SF and what I like. WH would have done those things with her so now she knows about ME and that hurt and disgusted me so badly.

I don't think that you need to not think about these things. You need to process it. This is part of it. It sucks but in the end(or at least the middle hehehehe) it is worth it.

I asked myself the same question and had no answer, Its so weird how its easier to answer when its you!!

He would have to inspire new admiration by how he handled recovery......

Not to T/J but I was having girl-talk chats with my OW while the A was ongoing....

I understand the violation feeling!

God all I cam think about is how you have to be careful of bragging when your a guy, because other guys will try and steal your girl .
Works that way with women also I guess
Some women

But some guys keep thier mouth shut too and are private too

Caracal I understand what you mean about first loves
It was like that with first wife, even in this sleazy world
Same with you Scotty
The psalmist said, " be happy with the wife of your youth"
And it was not an order, it was a wish for men

I am hoping and believing all of us are moving towards a greater love from above, and that truth and conviction will guide us through into something even deeper

Eeww, gross Scotland. I hadn't thought about THAT! But don't feel bad cause I know the thought would have come, I am now starting to process the nitty gritty of the affair... YUCK!!! Also thinking a lot about just how many opportunities I gave WH to be honest whilst he was in Aus and UK, in a very understanding way (no AO's apart from D Day).

Goes to show, never ever trust the words of a wayward.

Looking back, my Plan A was actually not that bad... and I got a good response from him until he got back to UK. Now I just have to master Plan B for my own sake, not his... I am a slow learner, but it is the journey that counts right?

Oh Indie, I had not thought about your sitch from that angle.
and Grrrr to Black Widow!

So true Indie! And that bar that would inspire some admiration is getting ever higher... I just don't think if WH wakes up that he would be the Olympian needed to get over it. He is no longer the KISA I always believed him to be. Instead my knight beat me to a bloody pulp and left me for dead to protect the "damsel" he had known at the time all of two months... TWO MONTHS!

As you may tell from my tone... I am no longer sure I want to rescue my poor WH from his young damsel... at least a "romance" with such integrity can't drag any other poor souls into it. Plan B allows them to "rescue" each other. Well, those are my thoughts from today in Plan B... lets wait and see what tomorrow brings

Carcal...

My WH is definitely a KISA. He's always rushing to help people - not only damsels in distress :-) It's his thing...

But as soon as he's saved someone, he resents the responsibility it's given him and he dumps them and runs away...

I hope OW turns into a dangerous, fire-breathing, sabre-toothed dragon...:-)

Maybe you would prefer a veela (Harry-Potter related, read the fourth book where they first appear) rather than a dragon?

the veela --> <---the wh

Ooooh, yeah...:-)

Ha Karma, think I'll stick with the dragon or Hagrid's spider spinning a very big web. Or is my WH as drunk as Ron after eating the chocolates? He is certainly acting as bright. Damn, that OW "damsel" might be a wizard with a love potion! Yep, an avid HP fan...

Unfortunately, Hagrid's spider

So was mine, what IS that? Once he offered to help a complete stranger move house....

Okay, here is a question I am unsure about with Plan B and just want some advice.

I have some friends and possibly a family member who have held off on speaking with WH since exposure. One of them actually said she wanted time to figure out what her feelings were and what she actually wanted to say to him... she has known the two of us since we started dating. Some of these friends are now coming out of the woodwork wanting to contact WH with "questions".

Is this wise whilst I am in Plan B? I figure I have no real right to stop them, it is their choice (and some are friends with WH anyway). And I did enough protecting WH from consequences of his actions prior to D Day so am not wanting to do this any longer. Any pressure on WH and the affair is a good thing isn't it?

Do I just make clear not to mention me (so WH does not get his fix)? I do NOT want to hear about the conversations, friends can figure out for themselves just how much FOG there is without me being exposed to it again!!!

Let them question him however they want. If you have told them the whole truth, what harm can it do you?

Let WH rage. You're in a good Plan B. You won't know.

Thats sort of what Ive been doing, KR, but I was a bit unsure so its good to hear you say so.

Most of our mutual friends havent contacted me (and some sent HIM messages of support while I had his phone) Grrrrr.

His family gave him hell. Hahaha - they love me.

My family were really cool and aloof to him and just say nothing.

I think you're playing it right Caracal. It doesnt really matter what people say to them. The key point is that they didnt want anyone knowing their dirty little secret - and now everyone does. Its their own sense of shame, more than the disgust of others, that gets activated, I think.

Thanks Karma, this reassures me. My worry is that family / friends will filter information about ME through to him... family in particular are increasingly angry with him, more so then when he was in Aus. And they have had a good few months to store up their grievences...

If this happens is it damaging to Plan B? I don't want WH getting a fix of me and having something more to fuel the passion with OW!

Please let your family know that it is in your best interest for them to refrain from discussing you at all with him. I wouldn't mind seeing them in Plan B as well.

I have been largely ignored as well (or at least it feels that way). But one couple have been offering support to me and WH is avoiding their calls.

Ditto Indie! Although I haven't heard from them since exposure, I think this IS more out of embarrasment at their crazy brother's behaviour. Prior to exposure they continually questioned WH and why he was not making effort in our marriage and reminding him of how "lovely" I am... WH was angry at them for this and their advice... "STOP JUDGING ME!!!"

Mmmm, my mother was anything but cool, steaming mad and let him have it on one occasion. Hell hath no fury like a mother scorned! Father very cool and clearly disappointed in him, think this really got under WH's facade.

I agree with this Indie. And I imagine my WH has worked overtime to suppress that sense of shame. But he feels it, his avoiding me, my family and the mutual friends that know are evidence of that. What I need him to feel is guilt for his choices and behaviour, as only this will bring about true remorse. And I am not so sure he feels that...

I see wisdom in MB's words for family to be dark. WH is likely eventually going to miss their support and love. But I may encourage the friends who want to keep the "judging" going (whilst being dark about me), hopefully someone may eventually get through!

Time to put on my dancing shoes...



But today I will put them on not caring about what the weather is doing in UK, but because I am going out with friends for a night in the city. My first night out dancing since D Day. Hooray!

Dance the night away.

As the Fraggles would say...

Dance your cares away!

With HOT pink toenails to BURN up the dancefloor!!!

LOVE THE FRAGGLES.

"Worry's for another day, let the music play."

Fraggle Rock

I love that show. I only recently got to start watching it, but even as a 22 year old I love it.

Especially the Trash Heap.

Though some people don't seem to think she's flattering--I've read that someone (I forget who) thought she was, "Someone's idea of revenge on a Jewish mother-in-law."

It is funny how in Plan B updates are more about my life and processing... but I hope in some way they help others reading. It helps me to write, I think I might start the journal back up...

I had a good weekend. Got the train to the city, met with friends and went out bar hopping. Too much alcohol, a little bit of dancing, and lots of laughing. Some tears as well, as my friend has known me since age 9 and husband since he was 18. She still can't believe he has done this, but supports me 100%.

I did get triggered today though, and launched into a big panic mode. I have since talked myself out of it and hopefully the anxiety lessens soon. It was all to do with my friend relating to me her seperation and divorce from her XWH. I had not heard the graphic account when it happened a few years ago as I was travelling and she was actually pretty quiet about it over the phone. And I was not as supportive as I could have been, just ignorant really.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, her XWH had a ONS, told her about it and then became suicidal. My poor friend, the day after D Day, was trying to sort out suicide watch and mental health plans rather then dealing with her own shock and pain. Her XWH then seperated from her and launched into another affair pretty quickly. She spoke about his spiralling down and not being able to deal with the guilt. I recognise he is very different person to my WH, but I started to think about what my WH would do if the affair ends, or if reality starts to hit. My husband was always a strong man emotionally, but then again, whenever the s#@t hit the fan, I was there to offer support and help him through it. And there were crisis moments....

He has no support in UK, or didn't until affair. Just work colleagues and one couple who were close but I know previously he would never have opened up to them. Doubt this has changed since during Plan A he yelled at me for contacting them with questions about his affair as he doesn't think we should burden them with our problems. Yep, fog talk.

WH is in a country he desperately wanted to leave to return to Aus.
WH is in a job he really doees not like (prior to affair anyway).
WH is away from his siblings in Aus who he really wanted to increase contact with. Siblings have their own families and contact is likely intermittent. I am unsure how supportive they have been to him since exposure, where putting pressure on him prior to this to reconcile with me.
WH's cousin committed suicide last Dec, which I think deeply upset WH as it triggered a lot of his own unresolved grief about his parent's and brothers tragic deaths 10 years ago this year.
My WH has access to guns through his work.
My parents have in a sense become foster parents since his own parent's deaths. They have now cut all contact and are in their own Plan B really.
My friends (who were also close with WH) have supported me and not contacted him. In some ways WH was closer with and had more contact with my friends then his.

Okay, I'm in Plan B and none of this is really my concern. And I have no reason to believe he is anywhere near rock bottom. But the anniversary of his parent's and brother's death is in early October... this will be the first year I am not with him through it. Maybe this is also about my grief (I was close with his family too). And the fact that it is my b'day next week, and our 12th wedding anniversary the week after.

Regardless of all of these feelings and words that are likely not making any sense, I am strangely feeling stronger... I hope it lasts and gets me through the next fortnight.

Being a wayward Caracal, is like being a very very selfish child. They think on a lesser level, are controlled by their whims and emotions (think a child stealing a toy from another yelling, "It's MY truck!"), and are ego-centric meaning the world revolves around them.

Some are so bad that they become full blown narcissists, wanting every need and bit of attention they can get. My xwh is one.

Fwiw, my xwh once threatened suicide after a d day. He locked himself in the guest bedroom with a gun. I grabbed my child and left the house and called 911 and our Sunday school teacher. The police came, talked to him through the door and left. Said he was NOT suicidal, just threatening and he slid the gun out through a crack. My sunday school teachers (a married couple) came over and talked to him too (through the locked door) and they said that (after they spoke with him) that he was behaving like a child, angry that his affair had been caught, and he was angry that he had to choose and that nobody understood how sad he was having to do that.

He was definitely NOT suicidal. I sent him to stay with his parents for several days after that as I didn't want him in my home as he was mentally unstable. He just didn't want to be TOLD NO. He wanted to do as he pleased. And he wanted to have his affair and also live at home and pretend he was a respectable, married husband, father, and professional man.

Crazy yes, but typical stuff for waywards. When two worlds crash (affair and marriage), THEY get crazy. Their crack has been discovered, if you will. Their dark secret.

I doubt your wh is suicidal. He might be in the midst of a "me me me me" situation right now where he's high on the admiration and constant attention of the farm ho, but I would not worry about his well-being. He is a grown man, and can make his own decisions, even if they're crappy and self-centered ones now.

Don't break plan B. The mind has a wierd way of trying to make you get around it. He doesn't need checking up on even if it is "for safety". You stay dark.

Btw, Caracal, that was 2 weeks before I left him for good, and left with my child and filed for divorce.

Had to add that in.

Thanks for sharing that Peachy. Phew, Darth really did have some tantrums didn't he? Guess he lucked out that he couldn't keep both lollypops.

I have no intention of breaking Plan B, but I can see that maybe the mind does search for reasons to do it... tempting me, testing my resolve.

But I know the Plan B letter gives the directions for him to acces the support should he start acting like a man rather then a selfish teenager.

Caracal

Just read all 33 pages wow
The more I look at it, our sitches are pretty similar.
Separated pretty fast, not a whole lot of time in plan A, first everything, and little communication.

My opinion and that is all it is.

Given the circumstances even if your WH wasn't in a PA before separation and it was just an EA and somehow you were able to Plan A him back I fear it would have been something similar to my situation. A eventual false recovery, but I don't want to project my situation onto yours so please take this with a grain of salt.

Now I only say this b/c of what I have learned from my situation.

One I didn't find MB during the EA and we had a pretty bad MC. Not a good recipe to begin with but.....you found MB fast.

WW and I were both ignorant of what was at stake b/c I was able to win her back instantly. We thought we would just pick up and move on from this.......we didn't.

WW constantly thought about OM, maybe not directly him so much, but the idea of him. Even w/ NC in place. And all it took was one break in that contact and boom, it's that fast. Just goes to show you how important EP's are.

But it just grew out of control. In her mind. All the what it would be like.....what would it be like to kiss someone else, to sleep with someone else........all of that.

And that is the problem. The EA gave them a taste and it just festered, I think more so b/c they literally had no idea what it would be like, like you and I have no idea, we just have better boundaries than our WS's. The ultimate forbidden fruit.

Though I think there is a major upside in all of this.

When the A eventually crumbles, I think both of us will be looking at our WS's in the end.

For a couple of reasons.....

When the A crumbles who do the WS's have to turn to??? Just us, no real family support, no real friends. We will look pretty enticing, that spark will instantly return the moment you two lay eyes on each other, it was there when he left. Happens all the time to me and my WW. Don't discount that.

Our WS's are not disgusted with us, they don't really think they could never love us again, literally the A is the only thing standing in our way from having our WS's back. That is not always the case in some situations, there was not a laundry list of complaints.

A long history of being faithful, we are not dealing with man and women hoping here.

I also would not overlook the intimacy you two experienced before he took off. Why? Because it's so intimate it's one of the most intimate experiences you can share with someone......our WS's just don't hand out SF out like candy.

But guess what.....we have a huge leg up on OW and OM. We know everything they like, how they like to be touched, what gifts they like and don't like, what types of dessert, literally every aspect of their life.

OW and OM are scrambling to learn this. I can tell you there are things that bother your WH about the OW, that is fact, just as in my sitch.

I guess I am saying this for my benefit and yours as well.

There is a tremendous benefit in returning to us.

Sadly I think the A just has to run its course.

But once it does, again I think our WS's will come back.

But you have come so far so fast, more so than me.

Stay strong

For me the speed with which everything has happened has left me reeling... and trying to catch up. Now that I am processing my OWN marital history, and not WH's, I have remembered comments like in March how proud WH was to wear his wedding ring... and then come May he steps off a plane with it removed. I still find it bizarre how quickly the boundaries must have been crossed, to have only known this woman two months and then be leaving a marriage for her, making no effort to repair our marriage. But I now think that just shows how little thought WH has really put into this affair, he is just acting blindly, based on his "feelings"... which we all know can change quite quickly based on the above!

I did find MB fast, but remembering back to my shock and denial, it took me a while to actually listen to the advice. I mentally cringe when I think how I argued with vets that my husband would never do this, would never disrespect me or our marriage or another woman like this... I even had Melody walking away I was so foggy! It does me no good to have regrets on how I handled things, but I still do have the thoughts on what if I had acted sooner on the advice? Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

Interesting thoughts finah, I have also considered some of this. I have been thinking about the effect of Plan B on my LB$ quite a bit, and recently considered the effect it may have on WH's. The last time we saw each other we were kissing passionately, and at the airport could not bare to not have physical contact, holding hands, the hand on the knee, hugging and kissing. THIS is WH's last image of being with me. And even after exposure, he still trusts ME fully, making comments predicting my behaviour. Whereas for the BS, the trust is gone, the memory of our WS is tainted by thoughts of the affair, we come to accept that our WS's are not the person we fell in love with, the affair has changed them. Maybe one day the spouse we married returns, maybe not. The thing is, WE will have changed and moved on, whereas in Plan B the WS is almost sort of frozen in time, and the memory of the BS is also frozen...

As for the spark thing... I don't plan on ever seeing my WH again should we never recover. That really saddens me, but unlike you, I have no intention of being there for my WH unless he grows a set. I will let him live with his decisions WITHOUT me showing one iota of approval. It has taken me a long time to be able to accept that for me Plan B is likely to be forever... still hurts though.

I hope so... and I imagine a 23-year-old may struggle to comprehend the complex emotions my WH is trying to suppress from the cheating and the death of 18 years. Lets just hope WH doesn't always succeed as he has one he!! of a temper!

Thanks finah.

I agree the affair just has to rung its course. Like most BS's, I tend to think my WH's affair is the real deal, all sunshine and lollypops, rainbows and unicorns. What saddens me is that should it die a natural death, it will be too late. But as time goes on in Plan B I doubt my WH will return. I think the more time that goes by, the more lost he becomes. And the more he would struggle with his pride to return, now that he knows I know.

Never underestimate yourself finah. It is funny how on MB reading others posts I often compare myself and think I am taking too long to recover, I am not strong enough. But healing is individual, and if it takes me longer to get there, the important thing is the journey not the arrival.

Oooh I did this too. BS fog is crazy!



Ditto for me too. Most of the gaslighting he gave me was about how 'hurt' he would be if I wasnt his friend, should we ever break up.

I got so fogged by this that I went from saying 'Are you crazy? You are my husband!! I dont want to be just friends!' - to actually promising him post-divorce friendship (this was before I knew of the affair of course)

Now I realise that this was just the famous 'fantasy divorce' that most waywards dream of.

Where they stomp the life out of someone's heart, dont make any amends for doing it, even when they are offered forgiveness in the marriage they say no thanks, im going to toss you like last weeks rubbish instead.

Why should that have any consequences for them? Why should that be any barrier to future friendship with the heart they mangled?

They just go la-la-la and tell themselves that if they care about you theyll hold hands, be your friend, have sunday dinner with him and the OW - otherwise WAHHHHHHHH - its not fair mommy - I want TWO pieces of cake!

While I do feel really sorry for him and the mess he's making of his life, i gave him directions home in the Plan B letter. There is nothing more I can do

He can get himself another friend from skanks-r-us should it come to that.

LOL I love hindsight, it also drives me crazy.

When I first found out about my WW EA, they met up for a date for the first time, I knew where it was, I was literally so close to showing up, but my mother talked me out of it......b/c I would have been arrested...the scene I would have caused would of been of epic proportions.....plates flying, glasses being smashed on other people...which may have not been a bad thing.......it probably would of really scared OM and we know all OW and OM are cowards.

Interesting about the trust aspect, never really thought about that.

Also the idea of being frozen in time.

My IC has brought this up a lot.......if the WS does ever return....they will have a lot of catching up to do.

It's never too late Caracal......and it's never over until you say it is.

You are right......he is acting blindly and it's 100% based on feelings and emotions.....not rational thought.

You are still very early in this......a lot can happen fast and in the blink of an eye.....I assure you

It is my birthday tomorrow, 28.09.

The first birthday I have spent without my husband since before I met him, aged 15.

We would usually go away somewhere exotic during our years in the UK. Last year my b'day was particularly fantastic, and the memory is in some way haunting me. Husband and I were on safari, and in the afternoon he suprised me with a boat cruise down the river, complete with G&T's and canapes, before taking me out to a hotel restaurant where we spent our honeymoon. Where we spoke about returning for a holiday to celebrate a significant wedding anniversary in the future.

Wallowing in the memory is not going to help. I am going to go to work to occupy myself this year, and in the evening am planning a dinner out to a fancy restaurant with family and friends. I am very grateful to have the support of those I do. My parents have even arrived back a month early from their holiday, increasingly worried about me I think.

I have a tough fortnight ahead. Birthday, 12th wedding anniversary, anniversary of the death of my MIL, FIL and BIL. Will WH think of me at all on these days I wonder? Is the fog that thick?

I do hurt that my SIL's may not contact me, the first b'day in years that I may not hear from them. I mourn them too.

I comfort myself with the thought that I have family and friends to support me. WH has a shallow relationship with a farm ho, no substance to that, no depth. He has no one else to share these dates with.

I am determined to have a good night tomorrow. Happy Birthday to me! It is my party, and I'll cry if I want to, but I'll also make damn sure I have a few good laughs!

Plan B launch date: 12.08.11

Your advice within, and the tone, of your still-fresh note to BillCarolina belie your attitude to your own situation, Caracal.

There are two encompassing arms of Plan B. The major thrust is to give the WS fair warning of the barrenness of what he will face from you in the future. Simultaneously, Plan B gives the BS the opportunity to disengage from thinking about, dealing with, or mourning over, the virtually-dead betrayed marriage.

Two months in, my friend, and you should work to NOT consider him in such "Oh, it was wonderful" terms, projected (and here's the problem) into the present tense.

Emotional assets spent wondering whether he or your SILs will send you birthday wishes (Remember, his contacting you would be a Plan B violation, anyway!) are resources better spent planning to enjoy and celebrate your day with your family and friends.

Set your mind to consider WH as "dead" (It it helps, imagine a gruesome painful death!). But had he died the day he left to be with POSOW, you'd not be here pining for a birthday greeting from him. That should be your attitude toward wherever he is, whatever he is doing.

Mr. Caracal: R.I.P.

Ha, thanks NG, I do deserve a butt kicking. AND to follow my own advice. I will work on this.

Think about the bright future that is ahead of you!

You WILL have a HAPPY BIRTHDAY tomorrow, because you will make it happen.

These first few trigger days will throw you for a bit of a spin, but you will grow from them and become stronger. You will KNOW that next time, you will handle it much better because of how well you handle it this time. It also gives you a chance to plan ahead. The days come along every year, so it won't be a surprise.

You'll do great. And if you have any thought about contacting WH or SILs, come here and post. We all understand.

Try to get out with a solid GF, (like Scotty type)
A lady so real will overcome this and you are awesome.

I'm sorry I had to edit this from my phone, I thought this was toughs thread, I hope you will forgive me caracal

Happy Birthday Caracal



Wish you whatever is the best outcome of this for you, that will make you a happy person for life, to happen to you fast, easy and painless:)

Hi Caracal,

I love the balloon/birthday icon and birthday wishes from MB posters. Did you have a good birthday?


AM

Happy Birthday, my friend!

I just want to say a sincere thanks to all of the thoughts for my birthday. It gave me strength, and means a lot to have people who don't know me IRL sharing the ups and downs. I did enjoy the day, a couple of wobbly moments though. But more laughter then wobbles... I am very lucky to have the people in my life that I do...

Glad you had a good day Caracal.

Its because you havent stinted in doing the best for yourself nd your personal recovery. Because you have done such a great job on Plan B, you will have more and more happy days. Plus you deserve it!

Did you ever find out who POSOW was?

I'll only say this b/c I was reading a sitch last night where the BS went literally James Bond on the POSOM/POSOW

He had fake aliases on FB was playing the role of a fake POSOM and messaging his WW real POSOM's, sending letters to these peoples families, their work places, FB bombing, telling all their friends, printing off flyers, setup more fake aliases to post on his FB b/c he knew his WW was checking it......

I mean just in your face ruthless I don't care if my M doesn't get saved I will ruin your life if you don't leave my spouse alone type stuff.

But he stopped posting one day so I never saw how it all turned out.....but his WW......was bat crap crazy......I had never read a story quite like his.

Just had me thinking........man if that dude only had one POSOM to deal w/ he prolly would have saved his M.

But his WW was just dead set on sleeping with whomever she wanted.......he ended up getting 2 or 3 POSOM's to leave his WW alone.


Something to consider if you get bored and want to go on the offensive.

Not quite sure if that gels w/ ur Plan B so it may not be an option.

got a link for it?

cv

Its a two part thread CV

Thanks for the link finah, I have started reading but still have a way to go... on the edge of my seat sort of stuff. Its funny, you have suggested something that lately I have been considering, but felt did not really "gel" with Plan B mentality so I did not raise it. I am still not sure it would be the right way forward. Sorry for the long post, it is a bit of a ramble as I write my mixed thoughts on the matter.

Initially on entering Plan B I was pretty all over the place, too emotional really to be on the offensive. I have more of a sense of rightousness and self-respecting anger now (actually, maybe too much anger the last few days, need to work through this!) I have realised my exposure was weak, particularly given those who actually have influence on my WH are not on the same continent as him. He simply plays on the time difference (or was, my Plan B now is too dark to know). I wish I could improve on my exposure, but I also do not want to "break" Plan B... other's thoughts are welcome...

Oh, and no, I never did confirm OW's identity... but I have a really strong feeling on this, as on fb I found the farm ho whose horse had a foal (she put pics up) whilst my WH was in Aus... something his sister told me she found odd was he received a text about a foal being born that he told her and his nephews about. My husband NEVER cared for horses, and had more to do with other animals on the farm. Also on fb she mentions starting at the farm in Jan this year, and WH's friend that admitted to me he was having an affair told me I did not know her and she had only been working there for about six months... that conversation took place in early July. Also, WH never mentioned this colleague to me whilst I was in UK that I remember. And she was never at the pub when we would go over for after work drinks, or at my farewell bbq with other colleagues. Hmmm...

I had actually thought of pm'ing her on fb and pretending others had told me she was the affair partner... but was worried if I got it wrong I would lose credibility. I wish this had all happened at a more "convenient" time in a sense like Valentine's day or WH's b'day, as then I could have hired a PI knowing when he would be leaving the estate rather then taking pot luck and the PI bill running into days worth of surveillance.

One of my friends actually wanted to expose her through her fbaccount she was so angry! What I found frustrating in Plan A with my poor exposure is that if this is the woman, she has only just turned 23... WH would be sooo embarassed about family knowing this I think.

I have struggled emotionally with not knowing the OW's identity, it is one of those questions that I feel I have a right to know. I know it would not give me "closure" but it feels further demeaning and disrespectful in a sense to not even be allowed that bit of information. Something I may have to live with, and I realise all BS's have unanswered questions in some way. But it remains a real hurdle for me... the wanting to know who she is, and wanting to acknowledge to her that I know WHAT she is and expose her to others.

I also want to know I fought the best fight I could for our marriage.

Guess I am going to get a 2x4 here for even thinking about this in Plan B... that's okay, I need the guidance.

I don't know if re-exposing while in plan B is a good option either. To me I don't see any true downside. The BS is out of the picture. I guess I could only seem them love busting each other...I'd like to hear more as well.


Anger comes and goes for me. Just don't let it consume you and try and understand why you feel angry.



Your instincts are probably right.


Her being so young could benefit you, FB has become such a part of society especially for young people, you can literally map peoples entire network and family tree from it. Just imagine having 500 or so friends/family know what a POS you have been. Good luck explaining all of that. Even if you receive blow back from OW or her friends, once the cat is out of the bag....it's too late. Even if she put something on her FB page explaining all of it, claiming you are some mental patient, no one will buy her story, maybe her close allies but certainly not everyone......shame can be a wonderful tool I mean for every one person that you tell I am sure they tell 3 or 4 more people, coworkers, other friends, family.....it's a domino effect.



I can't imagine.......I really can't. I don't know if it's better to know or not know. I do know it's more about your WH than her, usually the OW/OM have a lot of undesirable traits, but they just cling to anything and everything to keep their fix.


You are not alone in that regard.

Caracal,

Here is the guidance. Listen and do what Dr. Harley told you to do. Stay in plan B. Think about other things. You don't really want a 2x4 and you know what to do. This thinking drags you back.

Comments from the expert plan Bers????

AM

Caracal, I too had these thoughts during the beginning months of Plan B. Looking back, you see flaws in your Plan A, exposure, Plan B letter, etc. It's because your mind is trying to process these things. Sort them all out and file them away.

I had a problem exposing OW on FB. Her profile was private, but just before I went into plan B, I looked her up, and she wasn't private anymore. So, I had half an hour before I needed to pick my children up from school, and I exposed the best I could. I didn't know what her parents' names were, so I just started exposing to anyone with the same last name as OW(she never married). Well, months later, my mom was checking FB and saw that OW was open to the public again(not me, she blocked me, HAHAHA). She now had a list of family members, including her parents. I hadn't exposed to these people, so I asked, off board, if I should expose to them. I was told, "Plan B, my dear. Leave it alone."

I know you want to know who OW is. Being half a world away, you're not going to have much chance of running into her by accident. THAT would be awful. Also, you have assurances from others that you don't know her anyways.

Now that you have those feelings all sorted out, you can re-focus on YOU. Have you tried the rubber band idea that Indie tried? What are you doing to take care of yourself? Any new hobbies or interests that you have been working on? What colour are your toe nails? Have you purchased a new outfit lately? Thought about changing your hairstyle? Joined a gym?

I thought your exposure was fine. The point is to shame the wayward, not shock the globe. Just knowing that other people know about the thing they are ashamed off is enough to drag it into the light. Dont worry about this at all.



Um no, this isnt a 2x4 because thinking about the other woman is part of the grieving process. So I understand why not knowing her complicates yours. So this will take a little longer for you, but you will still get there.

I have read on here, maybe you have too, that it is simply a nasty little addiction, a single EP being met. That this being the case, the OP could be anyone - that it could be a goat!

I think you should use the image of a stinky goat, with no self esteem for your OW. It is the truth imo.

As for getting all the facts James Bond style. Well that is all very well and it is nice to know, but I dont think it is strictly necessary.

You can get that stuff out of him later on as part of your EPs if he decides to reconcile.

The day I discovered texts between my WH and OW, was the day before my GPS and VARs arrived. I had got my hands on his phone for the first time and I could have downloaded spyware on it. If I had wanted to I could have found out everything. I still dont know for sure if it was a PA for example.

But if he is telling another woman he loves her via text, and wont agree to NC, then the details dont matter. So my gadgets remaned boxed up while I packed up his belongings

He gets the Plan B door slammed on him and the details of the A are not my business while he remains on the other side of it.

If he wants to come home, he will need to voluntarily give me the details and proof. Yours will too.

Grieve over the A, grieve the details you have, but remember that she is just a silly goat who is willing to be a married man's toy.

When you're done processing, you need to focus on what your life is going to be like without him. You will be ok, I promise!

Great post indie

Cheers! I know what it is like to pick at your past plans and you do just move past it. Just giving Caracal a lift there!

This really is the stuff that separates the stellar Plan B from the 'just ok' Plan B - making it PLAN YOU.

Since I booked my hol to egypt this week and bought some new bikinis (yay!) I have been sailing through (in spite of some vulture activity and attempts at contact from softie) Of course I have more time on my side (and there is the rollercoaster to consider) but you get my drift.....

Nice post indie !

Clears up a lot about plan B.

Read Scotland's thread if you want to be proficient

Or just hang out here. Us plan Bers look out for each other....

Hmmm, I think I have too much self-doubt, and am thinking of all the things I could have, should have, done.

Can I ask who advised you this Scotland? I seem to remember reading a while back that a poster was advised by Dr Harley to re-expose as new information came to light... clearly this is not my case. I can't remember if the poster was in Plan A or B. I think it would be useful for others to know if Dr Harley advocates against re-exposure in Plan B or not, as it is not direct contact with the WS but it is certainly having the BS thinking about the affair whilst exposing although removed from the consequences in a sense. No foggy babble in Plan B.


This does concern me. I am living in a small country town, and whilst in Plan A I ran into my SIL twice, and her husband once. WH was planning on returning for Xmas, prior to my exposure. Should he return, there is the possibility he would bring OW back to introduce to the family. After all, it will be there first Xmas together . Bumping into WH would be bad enough, but I have prepped myself to walk away. If OW was present... I just don't know what my response would be, I think I would be acting on instinct. At this stage there is no point worrying about it, and I don't, but I do have to process that there is a chance I will sooner or later see her. And lets just hope that WH has too much shame to return to Aus so soon.

Thanks for focussing me on ME Scotland. I tried the nails in the palm idea, ended up with indentations TBH but will try again. I will not give up on moving forward and leaving WH behind. My toes are pink, my highlights are gold, and I bought a new LBD for my b'day! And I am off for the weekend to a fancy hotel, to spend some mother and daugther time shopping, eating, and indulging ourselves! That will take my mind off 12th wedding anniversary for sure.

Getting a plan on what I want to do with my life is taking me longer to figure out. The plan for when we returned to Aus has clearly changed and now I feel a little like I am flailing about in an ocean of choices with no idea which direction the shore is... but I am starting to get more ideas and actually being able to think about just how many options I have is a good sign. So I will take a little longer to float in the ocean until I choose which way I want to swim. I will reach land whichever direction I go .

Thanks for the reassurance Indie.

I had read this too and still love it!

Perfect words Indie. This is what I need to remind myself of.

Hi all, needing some advice on how to negotiate some Plan B stuff. Hope to hear some suggestions...

Firstly, I am having my IM contact WH about paying me my share of our car. As far as I am aware, he still has not sold it as originally agreed. He returned to UK four months ago, so plenty of time. The difficulty is, how to negotiate the sum I want... Whilst in Plan A WH was sooo confident he would be able to get a steller price for it (although I think he was overpricing it as an excuse to keep it and tell family that is why he is still in UK). So I am hoping to capitilise on this and get my half of his foggy estimate. I don't want this to turn into my IM being abused on his end that I am being unrealistic. I also don't want my WH to become angry that I am seeking too much and use this as further justification for his affair... Suggestions for me and my IM?

Also, planning for the future so I don't get knocked off balance should WH return to Oz... WH has left some stuff at my parents. Like his bed (I know, I know, I sure was foggy myself) which was a present from his now deceased parents. And another piece of furniture that was a family heirloom (something I am actually quite attached to myself). He has nowhere else to store these items and my parents are using them. I had thought should he return that he would need to contact IM and arrange a date to my liking on when to collect these items, and that he would need to arrange others as he is not entering my parent's home. Is this the best way?

Lastly, WH and I have acquired a lot of souveniers from our travels that I have kept (WH and I agreed to split them later when he was leaving me before I was aware of the affair). These have fond memories (well, they will one day when I get past all of this, at the minute I have them packed away). Some don't trigger me at all, but some do. I am inclined to keep them all. I know this is my betrayal speaking, but in some way I feel WH has forsaken all sentimental items from our marriage, as he has no respect for the memories anyway.

I also have all of our photos, 18 years worth. I expect WH is going to want to try to split all of this or get copies of the pics. What have others done with this sort of scenario. I am not going to sit with him and have a nice trip down memory lane whilst he picks what he wants, that is for sure!

Maybe he will never want copies of these photos and souveniers if skank stays on the scene, I bet she would hate seeing that sort of thing. But I suspect otherwise... whilst back in Aus he was very keen to split the souveniers, he really wanted some particular pieces, and it was I who refused saying it was too soon for me to be able to carve up our memories like that when I had always thought we could share the memories in our old age together. Now in some sense I want everything finalised, so I have no need to have WH contacting IM months or years down the line.

Sorry for inundating you with so many questions, it is a long post.

Okay, let's see if I can help you a bit.

The car will probably need to be taken care of during a D. That is most likely the best time for it, as it is marital property until then, so either one of you has equal rights to it.

His things at your parents, let your parents deal with it. Your WH can not go into their house without their permission. Just ask that your parents not tell you about the negotiations, and don't even bother talking to WH(through IM) about it.

Now, the souvenirs, and pictures? I would say that you need to pack them up, and store them away for a time. Also, do not initiate the discussion about any of those items.

In short, no message to IM about any of the things you mentioned. Pack up the items, as they ARE a trigger. Do something to focus on YOU today. What's that going to be? And how is that Finish learning coming?

I second Scottys advice, if he is full blown affair mode, all he cares about is the moment with her, and he has no respect for what was and what you shared.

I would pass the information and advice along to the IMs also, in case he contacts them, so you won't be bothered with those details, in case he tries to to start up a dialog about them himself.

Take care of you, yes, good advice

Thanks Scotty and CP for your thoughts. And I am doing things for me... maybe too much according to my bank balance this week

I totally agree with the furniture and photo advice. It is not my problem really. Typical me over-analyzing things.

The car I am not totally sure on. I am worried if I wait for divorce I won't see any funds for it. I spoke with solicitor in Aus and was advised that it would be costly and difficult for me to obtain funds through Courts given the property is in another country. I would have to get a UK solicitor involved. It would not prove worth it. So it is best to keep this out of the Courts, as the car and a few other odds and ends are the only assets remaining to be divided.

I believe the more time that goes on, and the deeper WH gets into affair, the less chance I have of actually getting this money. And I am starting to develop some plans on how I want to use it... I need a car myself, although am keen on taking up a friend's offer to meet for a holiday overseas next year.

So how does IM broach this whilst remaining neutral and not giving WH further foggy justification for his affair... maybe that is not possible?

If you really must talk to WH through IM about the car, just state what you want him to do.

Maybe it can be something like, "Dear WAYTURD, Your wife would like to know what your intentions are with the car. If you are going to sell it, she would like 1/2 of the proceeds deposited into XXXX account. If you intend to keep it, please deposit $XXX into XXX account by (date). Thank you for your cooperation in this matter. IM"

Something like that should suffice.

How's the weather down under? It's chilly here, but we had a glorious weekend last weekend, so no complaining. It's like 10 degrees though.

Thanks Scotty, that is perfect. Now I just need to figure out how much money I can get away with asking to fund a girly holiday.

Why do you seem so reluctant for IM to contact? Just curious, so far in two months of Plan B IM has only had to contact once about banking issue. Other then that, there has been no need. I realise that the less contact between IM and WH the better it is, the darker it is. But any other reason?

The weather here is hitting the low 20's each day, sunshine and I am eating a late breakfast outside soaking it in.

And I get my toes painted tomorrow... Oh dear, my poor poor bank balance.

Nope, just for the reason you stated. I just don't want it to be too much back and forth. It is better for you that way.

I would figure out what the car is worth, and then ask for half of what the value is after everything is paid off(or is it paid off?).

(((BANK BALANCE))) you poor thing Tehehe

I have a confession and want to clear my conscience.

I have relapsed in Plan B, and I have lied on my thread.

First the lie. I told you all that I had deleted WH's email sent in reply to my Plan B letter. I didn't.

I want to apologise for the lie. I am sorry for being dishonest to my support network. Why the lie... maybe not wanting to admit that I was too weak to cut the connection with WH. Why keep the email? Probably the same reason. Clinging to the memory of a husand and marriage that no longer exist in reality. And I knew you would all disagree with this action, so it was a selfish lie as well. Lying is not something I usually do, and I am not comfortable with it, especially when I know you are all giving your time so generously. I want to own up in a sense, take responsibility and hope my mistakes might help others do Plan B better.

So I went against all of the MB advice, my IC's advice, and my IM's advice. IC told me the email was toxic, and that I should get rid of it. IM said similar, and suggested if I couldn't delete it to forward it to her and she would only pass on the details if WH had launched into a confession (which I strangely hoped for). Pigheaded me kept it anyway.

I read it this week. Really, I always knew it was only a matter of time. I am embarrassed as I can see that there are aspects of a junkie looking longingly at the next fix, keeping it in my pocket and savouring it, just by knowing it is there. What made me finally open it? Sabotage my Plan B? Set back my recovery? Hmmm. Weak again I guess. I became more and more curious about WH's final words in a way. Had he confessed? Given me the answers to the questions I have? Apologised? Of course not. These were just toxic thoughts that only slow my recovery.

And for anyone thinking that contact with a WS will help ease the pain, I can now assure you that it won't. What it will do is return you to aspects of D Day, like the loss of appetite, not being able to sleep well even with sleeping tablets, etc. We all know what that is like.

Reading his words did prove to me I have come a long way (even despite my relapse). I have mixed emotions about what he wrote. But the biggest chord it struck in me is that my husband really is dead, replaced by WH. I don't like or respect this WH. I hope the setback to my recovery will be brief. Actually, I feel I am able to recover much quicker then previously. I am processing what I read, trying to filter out the elements of truth that might be hidden amongst the fog, but only the parts that are relevant to me becoming a better person for recovery or future relationships. I am not obsessing over what was written like I would have done at the time of entering Plan B. I will try to learn what I can and file it away, and work on making necessary changes in me.

Now what I have learned from my relapse... BS really need to remove ALL temptations, ALL triggers. Because in some ways these temptations and triggers meet some of a BS's EN's, however small. They keep US addicted to the relationship that once was, keep us clinging to the past, of how our WS's and marriages USED to be. This contact just hurts us... why be a masochist? That is certainly not going to help us become the best we can be. Also important to note, contact, however small or indirect, can damage a BS's lovebank. I think this email contact has made a considerable withdrawl from mine. If it had been the withdrawal that drained my lovebank entirely, I would regret that should WH want to recover our marriage.

So stay dark... don't manipulate Plan B as I have done. Contact is contact, regardless of whether it is direct or indirect, because it slows us from moving forward. The wayward's really aren't worth it. We BS can be pretty creative with our justifications for contact with a wayward. Whatever it is you tempt yourself with wanting, a confession like I did, guilt, shame, affair details, whatever, are worth nothing to a BS without a WS's remorse, commitment to recovery and EP's.

It is strange how anxious I feel about having let you all down, people I have never met. I am feeling a bit vulnerable owning up to this, but I also trust that some fellow MB'ers will help me grow and learn from this. My fellow MB'ers will hold me accountable. A verbal butt-kicking may be the only way, tough love hahahaha. Thank-you.

Drop and give me 20, soldier!

And....

Oh KR, you made me literally LOL, and that doesn't happen often.

Caracal. You already know that it didn't help you, so I won't be too harsh on you. I also understand what it is like to feel like you have let strangers on a forum down, and feel so completely guilty over it. Have you read my thread? I also feel like it helps keep me accountable having someone I don't want to let down.

Now, my question is this, when did you do it? How long ago? Was it before that post about what to do with his things?

Yes SIR! And... thanks.

Scotland, I feel you are coming in to help me clear up the mess I have made, like a naughty kid But I am relieved you are still showing support. Thank you.

I have dipped in and out of it since deciding to enter Plan B, and have recently started to read it from the start to finish... but it is looong Scotty, so only up to page 85 at the moment. You have only been in Plan B for a few weeks by that stage. And you certainly are a master so I will continue reading and learning. Clearly I need to!

Friday (it is now Sunday here). It was before the post about his items. I can see that there might be a connection about the photos and things, that I might have been triggered. The car I had already decided to try and finalise long ago. Had already told IM to just wait until after all of the difficult dates (my b'day, then wedding anniversary and yesterday 10 year anniversary since death of in-laws) cause I didn't want to have extra to deal with. And I have survived them, better then I thought. Though I guess I have also relapsed... maybe not as good as I thought!

Didn't want you to miss out on any punishment you wanted.

Now listen up! What color are your toenails?!

Now I really don't care about your toenails,(I think women dress for other women accually), but I do care if you are activlely taking care of you, and not wallowing in the past.

Let him eat your dust as you continue on with your life. A Wayward is a toxic person and you don't need to remind yourself about who he was, he is gone now.

Ha CP, you have just knocked some sense into me... at least I hope it was into me rather then knocked senseless!

You are right. Reading that email was to experience 100% exposure to WH as he truly is now. It ain't pretty. Why subject myself to that again... nope, no way. It only reinforces to me the need to be dark. I'll learn from the mistake. Thanks.

And Scotland is asking questions designed to have me thinking about whether I am reacting or acting. Another good thing.

Phew, where would I be without this forum?

Caracal, exactly. I was trying to point out to you that you broke contact by reading that email and then your brain wanted to get some more contact, so you decided to deal with the mementos and furniture. That's why, after you made your confession, I asked about when you had read the email, to show you(and anyone reading along) that breaking Plan B really does snowball, and it is NOT worth it.

If you think my story is long, you should read Queenie's. I have been reading it along the way. I also read Mimi's thread. They really helped me.

And don't think that I am a master at Plan B. I have made my mistakes. That's how I came to realize that whenever I broke Plan B, even by looking out the window, that it would cause me to want to break it more and in bigger ways. I got some crazy ideas a few times, but knowing that I would have to come on here and confess it to this forum kept me on the straight and narrow. So I know how you feel.

Isn't it nice to know that you are quite normal?

Caracal,


I am so glad you have Scotty writing to you. She is so wise.

Hugs to you. And for the reasons above, don't do it again. You are going to be so wonderful in the future. I just know it.

AM

You poor thing! You have been trying to heal this whole time with that toxic email in your back pocket. That isnt going to work, silly.


NOW are you ready to feel a bit better?



I have skated so close to doing this myself and spying on softlad that I am not going to give you a hard time. The punishment for it falls entirely upon you, so there is no need!

I have not yet had to resist a message from softlad and your reaction to reading an email tells me thoroughly that it wont be worth it. So I want to thank you for being honest and helping me prepare for that. It isnt easy to be honest about something you are ashamed of.





I agree with you about removing temptations. I knew that driving a strange work-car would make me tempted to spy on OWs house, so I 'thought' I had removed that temptation. The one day I forgot about that and found myself in one, I came within a whisker of breaking Plan B.

It was not my duty of care to myself or commitment to Plan B or saving my marriage that stopped me. No, it was the realisation that I would have to come on here and say so that stopped me.

Let us hold you accountable. It will help you as it helped me.

Yep, just like the recovering alcoholic that chooses to have "just one drink". I totally get this now. Just had to learn the hard way. No more lessons needed for me on this.

I have promised myself, and all of you, that from here on in I will tell the truth, warts and all. I am accountable for my choices. Although I am glad that this time I have helped you (and hopefully others) learn from and avoid my mistake, I will now try to help by setting the example.

If I relapse again now, someone can re-post this and make me feel really ashamed. No thanks. Boy, how do the waywards live with themselves?

I will!

Seriously though, it has made me double check the locks on my Plan B that are possible temptations. There are still pitfalls for me to fall into and you being honest about yours has made me look at them more seriously.

I have felt that pull to cheat on my own recovery. It is very possible that we will all fall. And we will only graze our own knees.

I have decided to post WH's email in response to my Plan B letter. I know I have learned a lot reading other BS's contacts with waywards and hope this might help some others. I hope it might reinforce to anyone considering caving in to temptation as I did that the wayward really does not have anything to offer a BS unless it is commitment to recovery, NC for life, and EP's in place. It does not paint me in an attractive light, nor our marriage. I feel pretty exposed but glad that I can also see WH for what he is now; no way would I have been able to read this two months ago and have any objectivity. MB has educated me, made me stronger. Oh, and WH is a one-fingered typist so you will have to bear with the lack of punctuation, etc if you want to read some wayward thoughts.

dear caracal,
well that has been the hardest and most upsetting reading lve ever read and has an effect on me that l cant even begin to explain.when we were first married we both were young and l think now looking back at it we didnt talk enough about issues uppsetting each other such as the effect of my long hours working at robs and not spending more time together.l also have spent time looking back on what l was wanting back on our early years of married life and really was buying a house and having kids which l no you were not keen on at all and seen to be less keen on as years went on,maybe something you may not have been happy with in our relationship? so many things were said between us over the years and never really followed up on,resecpting each others feelings/needs and giving each other the understanding they needed.l now no what a average husband lve been over the years in understanding your needs and talking to you with the resecpt you should have treated with.we are both strong willed and would not back down at times and think about the other ones point of view,not a good thing.the thing lve reliased now is that all l wanted was some effection+hugs each day and not the cold shoulder so to speak,also support when working long hours to acheive goals that we once had together,lam a simple person who doesnt need fancy [censored] just a warm place to be when coming home.l felt like l was stuck in london at times when you went back to see family,trying to earn money and keeping our house open,but l so wanted to see my family but had to bite my toung so that l didnt upset you as you were not dealing with it well anyway.when we come back from our last trip l felt so alone as l come home at night and not getting your support in these tough times,as you no l didnt want to work at alexs again and when you were unhappy again l couldnt deal with that again.so thats why l said you should go home,but wanted you to stay and be with me but you didnt reliase my hurt,and when you left it was like another nail in my coffin,and once again l was left in london.all this may not make sense to you but lam upset and not good at putting my feeling on a computer,over the years we have shared so many good times together but you gave me the cold shoulder for so long and pushed me away with out telling me why which broke my heart.you are a fantastic lady and have made me who lam today{good parts}and l never wanted to hurt you like l have done,and will never forgive myself for that.l totally understand the no contact thing as l caused to much hurt.lam [censored] at this and hate all of this..
sorry, Mr Caracal . always wanted to be part of your life

I am writing this as a sort of therapy, to learn and grow. Whether for recovery, or more likely a future relationship. The things I pick out is that I did not meet WH's EN's. I consider his top EN's are admiration, affection... and I am not too sure about the third, it is between DS, attractiveness, SF or RC? It is a hard one to judge as some of the babble is outright delusional, a total re-write of history. Still, there are grains of truth in there.

I can see my flaws in not POJAing enough. Neither of us did.

Aside from the last two months before I returned to Aus (which was pretty stressful all around), we had good UA. Actually, before I returned to Aus there was definitely a significant drop in UA.

It is strange, but with hindsight I think I wasn't bad at meeting admiration, affection and DS. Not perfect by any means, but I know I was not totally missing the mark. I can be very hard on myself and reading my thread at the start, I can see I am always someone who takes too much blame on. My mother also always tells me this. So I am unsure how much truth is in this letter. I know my Plan A was really good at meeting admiration and affection... doing this came naturally to me, I am used to doing it. And WH struggled to maintain the "brick wall" (his words even) in Plan A, acknowledging that I was "tearing it down, brick by brick".

I actually wonder if much of the trouble was WH's failure with HO... his failure to communicate with me his real needs.

I can see that this letter does not answer my questions about the affair or our marriage. I will gather what I can from it, process it, and file it away.

I want to come come out of this making the changes needed for ME. I had a great thought today. WH may realise some of his flaws, but he is not trying to change them (once the novelty of the OW wears off). I am committed to using MB principles in a future relationship. I never want to lose the romantic love again, to have a husband whose boundaries are weak. And I am proud that I am not someone who picks up and has an affair as a way to solve any marital problems. I am committed.

Some good news too... yesterday I was talking with my parents over dinner, with lots of laugther. My dad actually got all teary and said that it is sooo good to hear me laughing so naturally again. They both said it has been a looong time. Hooray! AND I feel like a light switch has gone on in my head. I feel STRONGER. I hope this is not because I have had a fix... I will wait and see. My thoughts have definitely changed for the better. Maybe getting rid of this toxic email from my pocket has lifted a weight from my shoulders. A weight that was of my own making, I could have deleted it at the start. Silly me.

You're gonna file that email under "G" right? (If you don't get this, ask me.)

And I got a real ROFL out of THIS.
Oh yea, WH had a real problem with his HO. I had to look at it twice. I now know why we short form it O&H usually. HAHAHAHAHAHA

I know why you posted that email on here(or at least why you said that you did), but I wouldn't have wasted the space on your thread. It's not worth the time it took you to post it. BLECH.

I am glad to hear that you are laughing again. It will help people see that MB and Plan b is the right choice for you. Carry on.

I'm asking?

Actually, lets hope all WH's failure with O&H leads them to have troubles with their HO!

Thanks for the words of affirmation Scotty. No matter how objective I tried to be when I read the email, subjective thoughts crept in. I can't help but worry "was it all my fault? I must have made him miserable". But then I can see the blameshifting, the absolute lack of taking responsibility (I broke HIS heart ), his not mentioning once that HE HAD AN AFFAIR. I think anyone reading my thread from the get go would also know that I really want to have kids. WH has rewritten this. And he conveniently forgets that I worked long hours with commuting, and that he returned to Australia for a family visit without me. I am not defending myself here, because actually I don't think I need to. What I want is for others who are blaming the affair on themselves to see that a wayward will do anything to not accept responsibility for the pain they have caused and the wrong that on some level they know they are doing (otherwise why blameshift?). A perfrect example of just how foggy WH is... he talks about so desperately wanting to be with family, yet he has left his family behind to go to another country to be with skank!
Most of that letter seems to me to be all about a

I got my toes painted yesterday. And picked up some uni brochures to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. And I am still laughing!

"G" would be for GARBAGE. It means you throw it away.

What ideas do you have for what you want to be when you grow up? I think I want to be a lion. Hmmm, do you think they have a course on that at Uni? hehehehehe

Aha, garbage. I am a bit slow of late. You are very polite Scotty, I would not be so polite. File it under BS, FU... mmmm, whatever I come up with seems to have two letters.

And I am already a caracal... if you do grow up to be a lion, maybe we can go hunting together to bring down all of those waywards! Mwahahahahah (that is my evil laugh). Actually, lets ROAR!

On a serious note, despite the relapse, things are going well for me. I have an interesting training day at work tomorrow. I am busy researching lots of post-grad courses (since I have left it very late and applications close end of the month). Not too sure what I want to do, so maybe will do a post-grad in something quite generic, keeping my options open to go on to a masters. Still trying to figure out how to balance the budget as a student though. But it is giving me something to focus on, and I now feel ready for that.

Oh, and on my mother-daughter weekend, I bought a nice sparkly ring with my b'day money. I felt the loss of the wedding ring, the bare finger, and saw Indie's suggestions on her thread. Feels great to wear something with happy memories.