My reading on MB has got me thinking about PA.

PA is often high on a man's list of EN's. I think it is for WH, but actually, most men I know. Other top EN's are often covered in depth on this forum... SF and Admiration I have sort of covered.

But PA is less so. I admit, the fact that WH has left me for a 21-year-old has got me questioning my PA. I want to learn and grow and better myself. PA is not one of my top EN's so I need help with this!!!

I am welcoming feedback from males and females about this EN. Here is the history.

When I met H I was only 16, a UK size 10.

During our marriage, my weight fluctuated. At my largest, I hit a size 16. This was about five years before D Day, and a time I know H became unhappy with my size. At the time I had been doing looong commutes that turned my days into 12-13 hours. H became the cook as he worked where he lived. I admit I was unhappy. H raised my appearance as a concern. I also began dressing terribly due to feeling unhappy in myself.

I lost some of the weight once I stopped commuting, and went down to a size 14. When we started travelling, I became a size 12 - 14. Before we separated, I was a size 12. After separation, during Plan A, I was a size 10. Gollum commented on how good I looked, how beautiful he thought I was.

After D Day, I dropped to a size 8. Friends and family were concerned. For me, that is low.

The thing is, during our marriage, H was NEVER happy with how I looked. Or that is my take on it. Before marriage, H used to double take when I walked in a room. After years of marriage... no. Sure, he would comment that I looked good, would want me to try on certain clothes, but by and large, he needed prompting to acknowledge any effort I went to. I think part of me is feeling H was too critical of my appearance, that I never met his EN with this as he always, no matter my weight, indicated I could do with losing weight.

Despite this, H always wanted me to wear a bikini. I have never felt I have a bikini body, and likely would never feel comfortable wearing one. I know my body's weaknesses, and its strengths. A bikini is not for me. I like to feel confident in what I wear. I know what I feel and therefore look good in. It just always differed from what H wanted me to wear.

Having snooped during Plan A, I know Horse Ho wears bikinis, there were pics on FB of her in them with ex-boyfriends.

Sooo, lets try and make a point from my ramblings. I want to feel comfortable and confident. I am currently a size 10 - 12. I don't want to wear skimpy clothes or bikinis as I don't feel confident in doing so. If a future partner wants to see me in these things, as part of PA, do I do this?

I sort of think sod it, if he doesn't want me for who I am, then tough. But I also appreciate that physical attractiveness is an important EN for men (and sometimes women). Feedback?

Have you seen this thread? Does weight matter in a marriage?
Lots of good advice from the vets.

Thanks for the link BH. I had actually read part of that thread and the update was great.

PA for me is a hard call. I understand it is an EN. I know that when a friend asked me what was a requirement PA wise when I started dating, I mentioned he needed to have his teeth I laugh at this as WH didn't actually have all of his, he had a falsie. I know aspects of PA are important to me, it is just not one of my top EN's.

Ok, as a size 16 I know I was not meeting H's EN. I accept that, and regret I acted resentfully when he did not love me unconditionally as I thought he should at the time (prior to MB of course).

However, I DID lose the weight. Maybe not as much as he would like. Before the A, I was a size 12. Not perfect. I never will be. I accept that, particularly given Gollum left me for a 21-year-old. I can't compete with gravity

What I am unsure of is, when a man wants his partner to dress a certain way, should she? If he perceives that as PA, should she do it?

Should I have worn a bikini or the low cut tops he wanted? Was this me not meeting an EN if he perceives this as PA? I always wanted to feel confident in what I wore. Was this wrong?

Caracal, I can't find a radio show about where Joyce and Dr Harley talk about clothes and physical attractiveness, but if I remember it correctly, they use to solve this by using POJA.

There are different kind of bikinis and you may find something that might make you feel good and might be okay with your partner, too. You never know, but you should not ignore this need.

What I have noticed over the recent years is that my preferences about clothing and appareance tend to incline towards my H wishes more than it was before. Everything seems to be tied together - the more I want to please him the more I wear things he likes, the more I wear them the more confident I am wearing them. I hated high heels many years, now I love them.

Its funny that you saw teeth are important to you! I've heard a few women say that.

Honestly Cari, (with the inside information I have, like a good little reporter) I think PA is not going to be a difficult need for you to meet.

As for clothing etc, Men don't necessarily want their PA need met the same way. Much as women have different requirements (we all have leanings towards facial hair, no facial hair - muscular or lean)

My H liked that I never wore makeup on a day to day basis (he actually hates mascara) but that I I took great care of my skin. Some men require makeup every day.

Some women would loathe the no mascara thing, but it suited me.

Some men like skimpy clothes, others like smart tailored clothes on their woman.

Some men like long freeflowing hair, others like an immaculate sharp modern style.

The list is endless. You are yet to start interviewing Mr Caracal #2. When you do, you will be reviewing how well he meets your needs and in what way, and you will be able to assess how well you meet his needs and if you like the way he wants those needs met.

When youre already married, you have to work with whatever your spouse needs using POJA, but you will be able to pick and choose as a single woman.

I'm glad that MrsRec mentioned POJA. I think that that is most important in ANYTHING. I am quite certain that any new man that comes into your life will like what you are wearing, how your hair is, etc. I think at first, a HUGE attraction for BOTH people is PA. As you have stated, there are certain things that you wouldn't want in a potential mate because you wouldn't find it attractive. While PA isn't a HIGH EN for most women, it is still an EN.

You could POJA the type of bikini, or top, or you could even POJA where you would wear it. I also think that you would gain more confidence if you wore something like that, and your partner appreciated it.

You are getting into territory here where it seems that you believe that had your weight not fluctuated, your husband wouldn't have made the choice to have an affair. It wasn't about your PA. I hope you know that. It was about HIS weak boundaries.

Now, what colour are your toes? How's the weather down there? Getting cold? I always joke with my friends that I need to move to Oz in the summer so I can escape the heat of summer. You may be getting a house guest in a bit. HEHEHEHEHE

Just an aside

34 is young to me (I am older)

Keep that in mind.

: )

i have two cents worth here. i have never been comfortable with my body, even when i was young and slim. i've always had a large bust, which made my life miserable when i was younger. i've never been comfortable "flaunting" the bust. instead, i've always played up my slim legs. (i always say it's easy to spot fake boobs: those with fakes are always willing to show them off, while girls who grow up with big ones are the slouchers.)

however! through mutual agreement (which before MB i didn't even know was poja), i am happy to wear things in private that i know H likes. even very racy things, as long as they don't expose my "flaws." H loves the bust, so i will wear things that show it off. he likes long hair (and as a so cal girl i've always had long hair anyhow) so i keep it long; it's no skin off my nose. i've learned to enjoy dressing up in the bedroom; the feedback you get from them when you wear something they enjoy helps your confidence. shopping together for special clothing is fun too. BUT i would never wear anything revealing outside the home! of course, living in a small town where i have to be role model helps my end of this :O)

in short, cara, you are reluctant to meet a high EN, but you CAN do this. if you have a partner that likes seeing you in a bikini, wear one when you go on holiday, or when you go to a private spa, or swim at a private home. it doesn't mean you have to wear one to the beach. and don't overlook the value of a special bikini-wearing photo you can text!

Dr. Harley talked on the radio show how one of the best way to find out if you found you're right partner before marriage is POJA. I can find it if you like?

So POJA while dating.

Found it at 6:45 mark.
Radio clip on POJA while dating

I have thought about your post about your mourning the thought of never being a mother. I had to give it considerable thought of what to post to you. I know BS we are on such an emotional rollercoaster. With so much of our hopes and dreams seemingly coming to a crashing end, of course you feel the sense that your WS has taken away yet another one of your hopes and desires. The thought of never being a mom can seem to be so utterly devastating especially when you see Gollum about to be a father with the OW.

I am certainly not a vet by any means. I have so much to learn myself. I guess i just wanted to let you know your dreams do not have to be mourned. I had my first at 39, and second at 40. Even though I am in plan B myself and it appears my recovery will include myself and my children, i still have the desire to have more children. For myself I am 99% sure that will not happen. By the time I would be ready by clock will be gone as it looks like my personal recovery marathon will be a very long one indeed. The other thought that also enters my mind, once i feel complete with my own personal recovery, most men my age are either are grandfathers or will be one shortly. So where does that put me? I just try to tell myself that will be a bridge i cross whenever i come to it, if i ever do.

So, dont mourn your furure blessings, it just has not arrived yet. 34 is such a young age to give up on your mommy dreams.

How are you doing today? You were giving some good advice?

Thanks for finding this BH, it gives me some weekend listening.

A lot of food for thought. The advice, as always, is brilliant. It is always worthwhile to hear others takes on PA during marriage, as it was something I never really considered during it. I'm looking forward to listening to the Harley clip, can't find my earphones at the minute though.

POJA makes sense. I sort of think I did this on many things with PA (wore the low cut tops that I felt comfortable in, high heels on romantic nights out, sleeping naked in summer) but the bikini was where I never POJA'd. I realise this is due to me needing to work on my confidence and understanding of PA as an important EN.

I became too comfortable that H would always be there and love me. I didn't buy the lingerie I wore when we were first married. I always made an effort with my appearance, but maybe not so much to H's tastes. During Plan A he did say that men often look at me but then he said that was purely the way I dress, nothing else. I guess these insults hit home, even though logically I know they are fogbabble and manipulative.

Thanks Scotty, for pointing out my weight was not the reason Gollum had an affair. I KNOW this, but part of me is too self-critical and I compare myself too much to Horse Ho. She has a boyish figure, is very slim. I will always be curvy. But I think he would have had an affair no matter how she looked. It was the admiration and attention from the unknown that hooked him. And actually, aside from my size 16 stage, I think I largely met H's need for PA. Just not as good as I could have. I think I was certainly meeting it in Plan A.

MB is certainly opening my eyes up to how I need to clear up my side of the fence for a future relationship.

Logan, thanks. Your post got me teary.

You've summed it up Logan. I am moving through the grief, I can look at children and pregnant women now without feeling like I am being stabbed. Occasionally I have a mental image of Horse Ho with a baby bump, and Gollum being there for ultrasounds etc and it HURTS. I feel such a loss. I so wanted to have H's child. I even had daydreams during our marriage of how I would tell him I was pregnant, how happy I would be.

Then I remember my pitiful comment to him when he dumped me on the phone the second time (still before D Day). I mentioned how now I would never have children. In typical wayward fashion, he denied this and changed the subject. Later, after exposure, he told one of my friends that the reason he was abandoning me was because I never wanted children. He even recited how when we were in the middle of Africa, on a motorbike, with me takin anti-malarials, how a "scare" had me freaking out. Well, um, yeah, it did. Considering the circumstances and my worry about the impact the anti-malarials might have. Rewriting and justification at its finest.

I would rather never have children than have them with an active wayward. And I smirk as I write that, because good luck Horse Ho. Sorry, couldn't help that bit of vindictiveness!

These stories fill me with hope. I know I am still young enough to have children. Thanks for sharing as hearing from others really does reassure me. I don't know your story, but I wish you all the best. And I am learning that life is unpredictable, we never know what is around the corner. And that is not always a bad thing.

I actually think going through all of this will make me a much better mother when I do have a child.

Back to Plan B after that last post!!!

My toes are still naked, I liked someone's comment that every now and then that can be risque. Besides, it is COLD here. Socks are the order of the day. Well, cold as in Oz cold, 19' today in Autumn (not FALL hehehe). The leaves have turned, all is pretty.

Hahaha, when can I expect the visit? I thought you were off to SCOTLAND first!!! I may beat you, my boss has been showing me pics of Canada, he went last year.

Remember what the Harleys always say "There are reasons for affairs, but no excuses"

There are a lot of people on here who's spouses EN's were met extremely well and their WS still had affairs. Because their WS had poor boundaries, plain and simple.

You're a MB warrior and so much wiser since you've been here. If Gollum wants to come back you would have that bar set very high.

Found some more radio clips. Let me know what you think.
Radio clip

Radio clip on gaining weight while married
Segment #2

Radio clip of H saying he was never attracted to his wife
Segment #2

Well Car, if you come to Canada, you'll HAVE to come to Niagara Falls.

I'm a big waterfall fan too. So I am guessing I couldn't miss Niagara.

I'm into wildlife. The grizzly's and polar bears appeal. My boss had some STUNNING pics.