How about if you go
you focus on 'you' being the ultimate dream wife/woman whatever you come across.
No lovebusting, disrespectful judgements, selfish demands (asking an OW to leave your house post haste is not a selfish demand but a reasonable one if done without angry outbursts...)

Plan A is about being the best 'you' while, yes, trying to show you are the wife he loved.

So, in essence, it is about working on 'you' more than anything else. You expect to not have much apparent head way with a wayward spouse as you employ it tactically. You do it despite knowing there won't be much pay off at the moment.

It is laying groundwork to be utilized at a later juncture.

Hello have been following your story from Sydney and I am very sympathetic to your situation

Is there any way of obtaining key to his London apartment so that you are not faced with the doorstep scenario? Was this an address that you shared ?

Other wise the managing agent might supply you with a spare key if your name is on the lease.

Getting access gives an advantage from many points of view

GOOD LUCK

You can follow the plan which you think is best for you, we all have choices. MB and Plan A were created by a man who has helped save THOUSANDS of marriages from ADULTERY. How many has your IC saved?

Plan A until the moment that you need to go into Plan B.

This isn't about what ENs you do meet, or what reactions your WH may give, it's about YOU. These plans are ALWAYS about YOU.

Don't worry, i didn't "get it" at first either.

You don't say "Hey, can I be your wife? You appear not to want me as one but is there a chance you will want me to be yours somehow?"

I do have to say that if you go to talk about the relationship it would just be pointless in many ways.

You don't decide to make or break a marriage with words. Words can change with emotions which change on whims (based on love bank deposits, love busters, etc).

Actions speak much louder. You go and say "I want to be your wife". You act like a wife who cares and wants to be one.

He already is planning on OW being his 'wife'. We all know that.

You go and plan A and then shut the door with plan B and see if the affair ever ends and he is willing to rebuild with you. You decide if you want to rebuild with him if that time comes.

Simple. Not easy or fun or fantasy based.

Caracal,

Sorry to take so long in responding. H and I were spending yesterday hiking and having dinner.

First, let me address your IC's comments. It is clear that your IC knows nothing about MB. To say that your husband is healing from your failed marriage is a stupid statement. He is HAVING AN AFFAIR. That is not healing. It is the opposite of healing. He may be feeling "high and happy" in the short-term, but if he has had any kind of honesty and character in the past, an affair will eventually catch up to him in the future, when he figures out he has massively screwed-up. I do agree with your IC that finding answers on the trip is a good goal. But these answers should be identify the OW, provide more exposure and bust up the affair. Dr. Harley's plan for recovering a marriage after an affair: end the affair, establish transparency and EPs, build romantic love. If you can make the trip without lovebusting angry outbursts and disrepectful judgements, then I think it would be helpful. Telling your H to end his affair is not a selfish demand.

Here is what happened in our case. My H had already admitted his affair to me. He also said he did not want a divorce. What he really wanted was both me and the OW and although he stopped having sex with her after D-day, he tried for several months to keep her in his life. I knew the identity of the OW and had exposed the A to her H, as well as most of H's family. I had not exposed at work. It ended up that my H self-reported to his boss about 4 weeks after D-day. So those things are different in our case. About two weeks after D-day, I went to the city he where he was working. H had been at a third city for a few days of work. I called while he was on his trip and told him I was coming and would meet him at the airport. I had DS with me, who was 14 at the time. We went to dinner and then to H's apt. Because he did not have a chance to get there before me, H could not hide or get rid of a bunch of A stuff. Hence, I started with the trash bags, getting rid of things that OW had brought over to apt, gifts she had given him, etc. For me, it was like spring cleaning with one of the kids - throwing out disgusting old things like a moldy pb and j sandwich.

Caracal, I don't know if this helps or not. In my case, I knew I was not going to run into OW. I could handle the visit without being angry. H wanted to stay married. H came home about three months later. We both retired and moved to an entirely different location.

Our marriage, pre-A, was a good one. Our biggest problem was that we were living independently during the military deployments. When we were together, we always met each other's four critical emotional needs. It seems as if that part is similar to you and your H. When you were together, things were good. You just started spending too much time apart.

AM

Armymama is EXACTLY right about your IC. Your IC doesn't understand the dynamics of infidelity, and as such, doesn't understand the mentality of someone who is in an affair. That is like saying a falling down drunk is "healing" and has moved on. Your H is not "healing;" he is sick.

What your IC is trying to do is to get you to ACCEPT that your marriage is over and move on without trying. The reason is because he doesn't understand infidelity and doesn't know how to save a marriage from an affair. His goal is to get you to walk away without trying. Our goal is to save your marriage if possible. It might not be salvagable, but you are not at that point yet.

And like AM said, the goal is to gather information about the OW and use it to kill the affair.

I can see that a few others have jumped in to discuss your counselor. I just have to add to it.

Your counselor has no idea how to SAVE a marriage. And the suggestions she is making would actually HARM your chances.

No wayward wants to sit down and have a big relationship talk. Your husband is not trying to pick between you and OW. He wants both. And if you force him to choose, then he will more likely choose OW, because she is meeting his more important ENs. He would absolutely HATE giving you ANSWERS. Because he doesn't have any answers. He is stuck in limbo. And he would associate you with pushing him for something he's not ready to commit to -- which would probably be divorce. Because you have not had the opportunity to show him what a great marriage you could have, and that you are willing to forgive him and work on creating a better marriage. You would be pushing him to answer you based on his FOGGY mindset.

Your counselors goal is to make you all better. And the quickest and easiest way is for you to give up on your marriage.

Your purpose in going to London should be to spy on your husband and make your case for having a great marriage.

Hello all . I really have to say thank you to all the support shown to me on my post, I really do not know how I would be coping without you all. But on that note... I am not sure that I am coping! I have gone quiet this week, thinking, thinking, thinking, and not getting far with it. I almost feel like I have taken a step back in time and am where I was after being told "I love you but..." Uncontrollable sobbing, not sleeping, loss of appetite, obsessive thoughts... you know what it is like.

Anyway, I have not gone to UK. Maybe I have not posted as well because I am embarassed, disappointed with myself, ashamed. I so wish I was someone who could do it... maybe I could have if I had some information about what I would meet, but I don't. Armymama, thank you for your response, it did help me with my decision to chicken out. We are in different situations, my husband has not confessed, has told me we are heading for divorce, and is avoiding me like the plague. I have been spending my time reading SAA, HNHN and part-way through Lovebusters (they arrived this week) and my situation seems so without hope. That is what I am losing this week, hope. My husband has removed himself from me and our marriage as far as he can, physically and emotionally. It is so sad that I am envious of those of you who have a cake-eater, because at least then I would see that I am in the running. As it stands, my husband has made his choice.

Maybe part of the tipping factor this week was that my father rang husband. My father and husband had a close relationship despite us being overseas, both of them being practical hands-on guys. My husband helped father build shed, etc, they were often doing stuff like that together. Well, even my father was gaslighted by the conversation, got off phone and told me that there was no chance for us reconciling, that he was not sure husband was having affair, that husband simply did not love me anymore and we had grown apart. That I had changed, become so negative, that he had tried telling me five years ago, that he had tried everything since. That he was not having an affair and did not understand where I had gotten that impression from. Funnily enough, the following day my father said the conversation seemed a bit "gobbledygook", and I said that all of my conversations with husband seemed that way, so at least my dad knows what being on the receiving end of the fog is all about!

I say fog, but again, husband has really done a number on me this week. I am swinging wildly between believing that there is no affair and then thinking that his behaviour only seems logical if there is an affair... maybe I just can't accept that I am at fault and have lost him through my lovebusting and not meeting his needs. After reading HNHN I realise just how badly I have failed our marriage... maybe our marriage was not as great as I thought it was... maybe I am the one in the fog?

I have emailed the mutual friend on estate to try to get some clarification and explaining my side of the story which I had not done to this point. Sent the very emotional email on Wednesday, and this has not met with a response. I feel doubly betrayed, that no-one seems to feel I am worth the truth... and I am too weak to be able to go and get it for myself.

On a positive note, my mother went to hospital for procedure, and no cancer! Such a relief, something to be grateful for. And thank you for letting me vent.

Caracal, I am sorry you are having a down week. It is to be expected. This is very traumatic.

And I want to affirm to you that we already KNOW you were lovebusting your H and not meetng his needs. Your marriage was not great. You failed the marriage in many ways, AND SO DID HE. You are both to blame for the poor state of the marriage.

But, that is not why he wants the divorce. He wants the divorce because he is having an affair. I am not foggy and I am telling you this. Just think, he didn't ask for a divorce before he met this woman. Secondly, there is a solution to the problem of an unhappy marriage, so if that was the real problem why isn't he interested in solutions?

Having thought this through, I think you will be making a grave mistake by not going to the UK. That is because his affair will remain hidden and you will continue to allow him to blame you for the divorce. Even if you can't save your marriage - and I will say there is no reason to believe you can't save it - you might at least know the truth.

Please go there, caracal. Surprise him. Find out the truth. You need to know, no matter what happens. Not knowing will drive you crazy, and it will also greatly hamper your ability to save this.

Great news about your mother!

What your father doesn't know is that there very much *IS* a chance for your reconciliation. It happens here all the time. There is no reason it can't happen to you too. In almost EVERY AFFAIR we see, the WS "simply does not love" the BS and has "grown apart." That is the RULE, rather than the exception. We already knew that. But we also know that it does not prevent reconciliation.

C, you have nothing to lose and everything to GAIN by going there and surprising him. I bet you will find the OW there.

Caracal,

I am sorry that you interpreted my story in a way that made you lose hope. I just wanted to lay it out there the way it happened.

Mel is so right. Your H is HAVING AN AFFAIR and there is nothing very special or unique about it. Don't second guess your conclusions. The other thing Mel is so right about is that if you do not go to England, you will always wonder what exactly happened. Go there, take a look around and form your own opinions about your husband and your marriage. It you don't go, I think you may always regret it.

Since your mom is ok, could one or both of your parents go with you for support?

One more comment: Your H likes to think of himself as a nice guy. That is why he lied to your father. He made up the classic line that "things have not been good for the past XXX years". The silence of your on-site "friends" says it all.

AM

Uh oh, I think I have messed up big time... really really big time. Here is my whole sorry saga, still trying to make some sense of it myself so this post will be long, apologies in advance!

Last night I tried to ring husband's colleague on estate to ask if he would give me some answers to my email. He did not answer, but my husband did! They were working together at the time... husband told me I should not be ringing friend to look for information, and I said I would not need to if he would talk openly about things. He said he had to go as he was busy at work, but he would ring on his break.

I spent the next hour thinking how on earth am I going to handle this call... and guess what, I didn't handle it very well. I remained calm, but it was all very affair and relationship based, not Plan A. My husband denied that he had an affair prior to returning to UK, and although won't admit to affair outright now (evasive when asked) he agrees he is seeing someone. He would not answer if he is having sex with her (though I clearly know he is) but when I asked if he loved her he denied it. I know I can't really believe anything he says in fogland. He will not tell me her name, says it is not important for me to know despite my saying I am his wife and have a right to know this. I threw in a lot of DJ's, all calm but still bad... Things such as when he was home he said he needed space in London to "find himself" whereas it seemed as though he was now finding someone else, that he was allowing a third person to stop any chance of reconciliation, that he was still married and therefore he was breaking his vow of forsaking all others, etc. Yep, the holier then thou stuff. I even gave the statistics for divorce on second marriages, desperation or what. He didn't get angry, just said that to him the marriage was over.

I managed to get in several times when he said "I never wanted to hurt you" with a response of "well, stop hurting me then, stop having an affair". He says he knows he has acted like an "*#!*hole" to me, he said this several times and I just reiterated that I still believed him to be a good man. I also explained that his affair was the single most painful experience I had ever had, nothing compared to it and I couldn't explain the hurt and pain. I only mentioned this the once. He also mentioned he sometimes goes to bed thinking about all the hurt he is causing others, and I agreed that he was hurting others but that he could choose to stop doing this. He said "what, I should come back to Australia and you just out of guilt?" I said no, he could choose to come back to make our marriage the best it could ever be. He states it is too late, that I was too negative in the couple of months after returning from Africa, I sulked and shut him out and hurt him by not meeting his needs. He did say that we were both under a lot of pressure at this time, but still does not seem to think our marriage deserves another chance. He really sort of vented about some of the things in recent months, and I listened, agreed with him that my behaviour was not acceptable, and that I took responsibility for this and was sorry. I mentioned that I am now aware of my own failings, but that these did not justify his having an affair.

Several times I stated "I am still committed to our marriage. My deepest hope is to reconcile and build a new marriage where we both make each other happy, where I make you happy" or similar. He said I had had plenty of chances for that and what would be different, I explained there was a plan we could follow (I didn't go into what this was), lots of other couples manage to succeed and so could we. I also mentioned that I did not believe that either of us had tried everything as he keeps stating he has, and that together we had far more options.

I raised some happy memories of us in recent years, he said these memories were "okay"... One of these memories was about a sexy weekend we had, and he replied that not everything is about sex to him. I should have asked what it is about then, but instead asked is it about admiration, have I not admired you enough (I think this is one of his big EN's, and I believe this is what the OW may be giving him, a lot of flattery based on comments he made whilst in Aus). He again didn't really give an answer. I then said I realise I never told him enough what a wonderful man I think he is, and would like to be able to do this in reconciliation.

At one point I raised that on the day he was telling me our marriage was over, he then went on to talk about how there was a woman interested in him back in London. I said this suggested to me that he was already involved in affair then, and not committed to our marriage. He of course denied this, saying the only reason he went back to London was to sell the car, that due to financial worries he needed to sell the car. I raised that if we reconciled he would have double his money, he got annoyed at that, asking "is this some sort of brokerage?", I just answered that whenever people seperate they lose money but if couples remain together they have more money, that is just a fact. I also mentioned that when he was back in Australia he seemed to be wavering in his decision to seperate, but he ran away (another DJ, I know) and did not give us a chance. I said I believed if we were in the same country I would be able to meet his EN's, but instead he is looking at signing a long-term contract. One positive, if I can believe anything he says, is that he does not think he will sign contract. Whether that means he wants to come back to Aus, who knows?

And he is angry over exposure... he said I should not be so quick to judge him and it is no-one else's business about the state of our marriage. I explained it was other people's business when he was hurting them, when he had said his vows in front of these people, and that if he was more honest with me this could possibly have been avoided. I reminded him that I exposed to save our marriage. This did shut him up for a bit!

He did raise that my father rang and described my dad as "a good man", whatever that means. And how did the call end? Despite all the lovebusters on my part, he was amicable, which worries me as maybe this is apathy? He said he would have a think about what I had said, and he would contact later in the week.

Arghh, I have made a mess, my lovebusting is only going to make this worse, push him away straight to OW. I need to process and reassess where I stand. Where to from here?

Oh, and I text after call (yeah, was really not Plan Aing), based on some of my readings from SAA but hopelessly inappropriate and chasing him.

"Husband, thank you for being more honest about your affair. I am sorry for my part in not meeting your needs so that you began an affair. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are both suffering for my mistakes. I want to change these mistakes and create a new life for us both that will meet our needs. I loved you when we married and still love you. I want our love and marriage to be better then we ever had. We could do this if we choose to. Meanwhile, I am thinking of our love, how we met and our achievements together. We could achieve so much more, older and wiser and with more respect for our marriage. Hoping to remain your wife always, xx".

I don't see anything wrong with it at all. In fact, you conveyed a lot of important information here by telling him you would be willing to meet his ENs in the future and how HURT you are by his affair. I don't think he really understands that.

NOW, are you going to go there and find out who she is?

I agree with it not sounding so bad.
You DID convey a lot. Good for you.

Well, are you going there?

Thanks Melody and reading for not beating me up about the phone call... but I thought for Plan A this was way too much affair and relationship talk?

Sorry I have not replied sooner, you're persistence in questioning me about going to UK has had me thinking. I know I should go, I know that this is probably the best plan in busting up the affair or at least creating conflict, but I am not going, I simply don't have the strength. I realise this is also letting my fears control me, so I am thinking hard about it. My decision on this changes by the hour, and I have even started to think about giving up entirely on husband as well, I am becoming angry about his lying. I only got the "confession" if I could call it that (more like justifications) because his friend told him about the emotional email I sent and it is likely he thought he needed to say something to get me off everyone's back. Despite this, I do still want to save our marriage. Do I have any other options in doing this from Australia? Tactics?

Feel free to criticise my decision, I know I am not following the plans here and it is not getting me anywhere!

Other feeble excuse for not going is that at moment husband is working very long hours and unsure when this ends (about 16-17 hour days) though should be soon. This is typical at this time of year.

I am very confused about his leaving me for a woman he says he does not love... this can not be right can it? He must believe himself to be in love? Or am I trying to read too much into his fogbabble?

Contact since he rang and my return text Friday... I have been chasing him and doing everything not recommended in Plan A, I need to rein it back in.

Saturday I text: "Hiya, hope your feeling better? Some gossip, there was a shooting in my street by police of knife-wielding psycho! xx"
WH Response: "Hi, I am getting better. Well, hope they got him, glad to see police handled it. Bet it gave you a scare hey!"

Sunday I text: "Hey trooper, glad to hear you're getting better. And your right, psycho was scary, but a woman! Just saw lions eating an elephant documentary like we watched in Africa, interesting. Are your work hours shorter?"

No response to this.

Trying very hard to not have expectations as per Plan A.

I again have to thank you all for your support and I really hope my cowardice will not cause me to lose support. Though maybe I do deserve that!

Thanks for laying it out AM. And you are right, I may always regret not going. My parents have actually left for an extended vacation (Grey Nomads we call it in Aus), away for a few months. They have been planning this for over a year and had to delay it due to mother's health, I couldn't ask them to delay it longer. I believe I could have gone with someone else's support, although financially this would have been a huge strain for me cause I would have had to buy two tickets. Excuses excuses huh?

Hi Cara,

No advice from me...you are in good hands with Mel and AM. I did want to tell you that I just saw your reply over on Operation Investigate, so I'll reply to you there. Sorry, I just saw it this morning!

I think you are still in the stage of no exposure/trying to confirm, correct? I am drawing that conclusion without fully reading your thread, but by AM's response so correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll hop over to OI forum and see if I can give you additional tips for Facebook.

Thanks Surfer, I will check the other forum. I know Melody and AM are brilliant, just wish I was following all of their advice (I am trying!). I have exposed to WH's three sisters and brother-in-laws, my parents (his are deceased), my brother, WH's two cousins, our best man at wedding, two of his work colleagues he is close with, my friends and a mutual friend. Problems is, other then work colleagues who have turned a blind eye, all of the others are not in the UK where WH is! But I can't confirm identify of OW, though I have strong suspicions. Am actually wondering about facebooking her anyway to ask and say if so I have important info about WH (he was cheating on her with me whilst he was back in Aus)... though that may come across as absolutely bonkers if I am wrong.