But you are at the starting point, right?

Stretch - one word - J-E-A-L-O-U-S!

Andy - I am sorry man. Mine could still go either way. And so could yours. But, in my sitch we are still in a caring marriage everyday. Its nice to have each other. Just not sure if we're on a path right now that will have us suffer "a thousand cuts"

NW - you know. I am not clear. I am not certain. Are we at the starting point of recovery? I don't know how she would answer that question. Yesterday I think the MC said, "Perhaps you are at the starting point." I am not perfectly clear.

Something has changed. Something is definitely different than it was the first few months.

Maybe what we need is a more specific plan. If the fog is cleared, and we are at the starting point -- despite the fact that she feels worse today than ever before -- maybe we are stumbling around at the starting point and not sure what the straight track is.

Phone counseling with Dr. Harley intensively would let you know what path you're on. I honestly am quite dubious about most "counselors" as i think they help more people divorce than actually know how to get a marriage truly healed from infidelity.

So what's she saying? Maybe I missed it, but just saw where you said she was mad.

Or are you just at a point where you *thought* you wanted this but aren't so sure anymore and that bothers you?



What does she feel so worse about? If you two just don't know how to get started, really started (have y'all talked it over?), then why not approach the phone counseling like peachy suggested?

Getting a plan together, or even just a plan to get a plan, can sometimes do wonders when you're not sure just where to go next.

Its me that says "something is definitely different"
And, NW, you may be partly right. I'm not so sure I have to have this. That I need it so desperately. "Not so sure I don't want?" No. I do. I really do. But not so bad I am willing to be a doormat.

I just finally realized that I could think clearly again. That I had strength. That I would be okay if we moved on. That happened after contact in late April. As she was crying to the MC, twisting, turning, using every fogbabble line to explain why she wrote OM a stupid email. I was so vividly clear headed. And I've felt that way ever since. I've stopped all the crying, the neediness, the pathetic behavior. I can unravel the foggy language better. It doesn't hurt like it used to. I think that seeing that strength in the BH actually scares the WW. Like, "OMG, this is real. He might be strong enough to move on without me." I don't want to. But I know I'll be fine.

In early May she put the ring on, started doing more personal therapay work on her own depression, got a new therapist, looked into adjusting her meds, and starting making a lot more effort to be nice and blame me less. I felt all those things.

But she is confused, most definitely. She feels like crap. It looks like a big uphill. A lot of fogbabble walls, stories, filters are cracking and falling apart. Stories about the marriage, about our way of being, about the justification for what she did with OM.

Meanwhile, I am working hard on myself. My FC, Conversation, O&H. Thinking a lot about my relationship with the kids. (FC her #1) And my Conversation skills (CO her #2).

Stretch - That's a great realization on your part. I think I arrived at that same place when we started negotiating the separation agreement, especially the visitation schedule. Once I got primary custody of DS, the marital home followed quickly because of DS. I knew I would have to pay the two mortgages and the rest of it all just fell into place. I started crunching the numbers and looking at a budget. So, I knew I would be okay emotionally (eventually) because I got what I wanted - DS stays with me. I knew I could make the numbers work, that gave me confidence that I could survive financially month to month. It's going to be tight, but it's workable.

I think you're right about your WW's realization. Our MC has noticed and commented on the same thing with us. The more sure I was of my situation, the less sure she was of hers. That's probably continuing now. You're on the right path, work on yourself and have the best possible relationship with your kids. If WW decides to come along - great! If not, you'll get to live your life well.

Hang in there!

That's brilliant. Thanks

ANd, obviously, part of "working on self" includes continually working on being a better husband. Meeting her EN's and eliminating LB's.

Two interesting updates.

First,

Older sister ranted on email to my WW this weekend. "You never call.. I assume you have a better support network.. I assume you are mad at me... seemed we were talking a lot more before Stretch found out... what's wrong..."

My wife talked this over with me. Included me. Responded to her sister: "I am changing a lot of the ways I do things. Going to my peeps and complaining wasn't working. Stretch is my first line of support. I talk to him first. And I am working with professional therapists. This is not all about you dear big sis, and stop making assumptions about what I am feeling or thinking."

I was impressed that she realizes she needs to try something new or just keep getting the same old results. We need to have a relationship where we count on each other first. She has a habit of worrying about everyone else's feelings first and never her own (or mine). Her sister just wants to get her nose in, preach, give her wacky advice and complain that she feels hurt and left out. She didn't help during the A. Neither did her best friends or little brother. So I am amazed that my wife is trying to find support elsewhere now, starting with me, and not with the people she thought were her closest peeps during the A. Her relationship is changing with a ton of people. Her parents, her friends, ME! This has changed my relationships too, with my sisters, my in-laws, her friends, with WIFE! Not everyone is crying boo-hoo my feelings are hurt. But big sis just did. I was proud wife (and mom and brother) all told her its not about you. Stop crying.

The last few nights we have had successful heavy lifting conversations about : Conversation, FC, SF.

Second update,

I am studying depression. Working hard to just share what I read or learn without DJ. I reviewed some articles and books, plus had Q&A with my PC, plus read some of HHH dissertations over on the men's thread....

I was very careful not to grab the floor and go on and on with my wife... a la "This is what I read and I think it means that YOU and YOUR depression are blah, blah, blah." Nope. Avoid DJ. I've been reading a lot. And waited for her to open a conversation which she did last night. I just told her, here are some things I learned about depression from different places. Pause... let her think and respond. And finally she asked, "Do you think any of that might relate to me?"

"I am no professional. Just did a tiny bit of reading. I think I know my wife well, I hope, so yeah... maybe these are some of the concepts from the literature that might be worth exploring for you."

Its a lot for her to take in. I am thinking and processing a million miles an hour. Have been for many months. But I believe her energy has been just dominated by hiding the A, then dealing with exposure, then justifying, then defending, then fighting the fog, maintaining the fog, then being exhausted as the fog lifts, then changing the revisionist history and the stories and filters about Stretch, about her peeps, then accepting Stretch 2.0, then examining her own problems for real finally. Its an avalanche.

"Quiet Confidence" -- Steady On Man. Trying to be strong husband and father.

Awesome update, Stretch!

That mind racing may be a symptom of your own depression, as well. Though the weight of yours may not be as crushing as hers.

Probably the most interesting thing I have found on depression is the idea that it is an actual evolutionary advantage, and not a "disorder" (though, I would say this would be more fitting with transient or crisis-induced depression, and not chronic, clinical depression);


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=depressions-evolutionary


I can tell you I've faced life-long transient depression. It would not fit the MAD model (Maladaptive, Atypical, Disturbing others). In fact, half the time I would catch it with "What the heck do I have to be mopey about?"

It usually catches me in times when I am working alone, or home alone or whatever. But, it is a time when I do a lot of analytical thinking, adaption, and application of the things I have studied and read. As you have stated "thinking and processing at a million miles per hour." Every once in a while, you get a gear that "plugs right in" to the machinations of thought, or connects one "gear" to another, and off it goes.

It may be why I can run top of the class without ever opening a book. I don't know.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, off that... if you look at the idea of depression as an adaptation for solving complex problems and social problems, you might understand this process she has been going through as well. The simple progression of her thoughts and actions is an indicator that she is progressing through solving this problem in her head - and offering her an outlet, or input which she requests or accepts enthusiastically to process on her own - eventually things should begin to even out.

Well done, stretch! Good to hear about that email, too...sounds like it was way overdue.


While the depression will never "go away", I've found my wife's episodes dropped off significantly once the affair (and all related crap and fallout) ended.

I'm betting you see an improvement in that area once the rest of this "stuff" is resolved.

Keep it up! Take a vacation or something if you get a chance, before winter sets in up there

So I am amazed that my wife is trying to find support elsewhere now, starting with me, and not with the people she thought were her closest peeps during the A. Her relationship is changing with a ton of people. Her parents, her friends, ME!

When last we talked (actually, when last I talked) it was acknowledged that you taking the lead on getting new (better?) people around the pair of you was a worthwhile endeavor.

How is that progressing?

Stretch - I'm escastic for you. This is awesome. I'm more than cautiously optimistic - she appears to be doing all the right things and you're helping to guide her along the way. Well done Dude!

You also told me to google "spouses with depression". Which I have done. I cannot keep up with HHH medical reading. But he's in medicine. He reads that stuff faster than I do. I'm just a salesman.

I think she might have manifested "learned helplessnes" and always searched for a way to make the depression stop. That way was to get rid of the hubby. Or have an affair fantasy carried out, or use too much alcohol. But helping her own depression wasn't tried. (too much DJ there? probably)

We are dating each other more. ALways eager to spend UA time and grab a date. She is spending a lot more time with friends other than the BFF's that got into this trouble with her. I think they get it. Saturday girlz nights aren't gonna happen. Dancing at clubs ain't gonna happen. And, sadly, family camping trips with them aren't gonna happen this year. They are all sad and bummed but accept the consequences. There is a pang of, "ohhh boo hoo we can't have the kind of fun like we did two summers ago." Yeah. No kidding! Grow the F**K up gals. You ruined it for yourselves.

My wife says, "I'm just not going to enjoy that scene again for a long time. Bars and bands. Dancing with my GF's."

I've wanted to take her dancing to live music, but she hesitates.

Ah, dude. I'm just a LPN right now. O_o

Cliff's notes version of what I posted; depression allows us to work through problems, and makes us behave in a way that allows us to work through them.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a neighbor one time. I've had him do some work on my wife's rig a few times.

He told me "I don't know how you guys understand all that stuff, it makes no sense to me..."

I told him that all it was is a language describing the body and how it works, and that a lot of the words describe things and how they work - and sometimes they simply describe vague things.

For instance; dermatitis. All it means is inflammation of the skin. Doesn't tell you why, doesn't tell you how.

So, I asked him; what is a CV joint (I didn't know) - his answer "Constant Velocity Joint." He knew what it was, what it did.

I'm sure you have similar terminologies in sales that would be foreign to me, brother. It's language.

/babble

"malolactic"
"sur lies"
"mash tun"
"aguamiel"
"IBU scale"

Speakin' Greek?

Wow stretch, yeah great update, and thank you again HHH for That amazing info like you do.

It is interesting how depression is a low point it "feels" like but sometimes is nessesary for growth. People who are in a depressed state seem to not engage as much as others, but many times it is because they literally have a lot on thier minds.

I also found it interesting about the part of the brain in the prefrontal cortex, that is activated in depression. See I have a working theory about that, backed up by science which of course I will share with you now..

As some of you know my Wife was an addict, a drug addict, and we also compare the withdrawl symptoms from adultry addictions to the withdrawl symtoms of drugs, with good reason also, and it is not by accident that DR H compares them to that either, because he operated drug abuse clinics for some time in his carreer.

The prefrontal cortex in where we solve the problems and reason out our fears and chalanges as we live our life. Where we make good decisions wrought out of dealing with the fear and pain we suffer. It is our source for change, it is nessesary for growth and it becomes active under duress.

Now the center of our brain has the area that provides the chemical dopamine, the reward drug, the feel good and safe, everythings right, my tummy is full, I am safe drug.

When we are in danger, or something is wrong, the prefrontal cortex goes into action. all forms of fear and emotional pain will trigger it, and until the brain is satisfied that all is well, the dopamine will not overpower the mind and peace will not come. Worry and depression will be there, until we are safe and things make sense. It is normal and expected that we will feel pain at times, and also that it will pass as we adjust to grow through it and do something about it. Its in our natural problem solving human nature and ability to think through problems.

So where does addiction fit in? Well first where drugs are concerned, the use of dopamine enducing substances bypass the brains need to please the feel good part of the center of the brain, sometimes refered to to as the "God conscious" part of the mind, what we all are looking for to please, in everything we do. The drug user tricks the descision making part of the mind into shutting down, as a matter of fact, SPECT scans of people with long term drug habits show that the prefrontal cortex of heavy drug addicts are almost completly without activity. That makes sense right? They get all they need from the drug and don't need to make descisions anymore fed from the real world and real life.

Now for the person running away from thier marriage into the escapism of an affair, failing to face the facts and reality and pain associated with the descisions they have to face to turn things around, they also hide from the reality that causes the pain of growth we all have to face as life becomes more real with another human being. It is yet another way to shut down the prefrontal cortex where all the frustration is, and hide. As we all know this dont workie, and you can run but you cannot hide and expect to win any fight, and the parasites come find you.

As long as people hide and live in that fantasy they feel safe and as long as they keep it secret they feel protected and yes, like an addict, they are fooling themselves, and robbing themselves from the very thing thing that gives them life and strength, the embracing of conflict and the victory feeling of satisfaction of conquering it.

Addicts of all kinds are escaping from something, they seem fine while doing the drug, or activity that distracts them, but the depression that comes from times of deep change and adjustment is a nessesary part of growth.

As married couples we are supposed to find safety, comfort, and peace with our spouses above all others. This is possible through continued practice, yeah practice, it is not easy and doesn't allways happen overnight, of the principles found in MB. Funny how they line up with everything most of us hoped our marriage would be, but we had to be 2x4ed by life again to remember to practice them. The chronic wayward will not have love in its real sense it was meant to be unless they come around to that realization,as any FW can attest to. Dr H did not write the rules of love, but he explains them very well and knows how important they are.

Its no surprise Dr H will not even start to counsel a marrige if there is any substance abuse problem because he knows the user is in love with the drug, finds all comfort in it, and is not capable of loving the spouse.

It appears it is best if we don't try to shortcut our brain to bring about love because we need all the parts working to be really in love, and depression is just part of the process of deep thinking and change, facing our fears, and squashing them with reality.

Its good to hear you are going in a good direction Stretch