Once again, I think you are making this harder than it has to be. There is nothing wrong with doing this on another day if it just makes the exchange unrealistically hard on all of you.

Agreed with Mel.

If it's too complicated, don't worry about it because he sure as hell wouldn't jump through any hoops for you. And by doing something nice or honorable for him now isn't going to elicit a quid pro quo from him at a later date. The "favor" or "gesture" will be lost on him.

Offer another day instead that works with the people that aid with the children exchange.

The message from IM to WH could be "Kids are not available for Father's Day on Sunday, but are on ____ and can be picked up at ___."

No further explanation warranted, IMO. If he wants to raise a stink about it, pass on the phone number for his local senator and go on with your day. He isn't worth this type of mental exertion. Save your good intentions and kindness for those that actually care about you and would appreciate your efforts. And I mean that in a good way, ok?

That wasn't meant as a criticism of you or anyone else at all. It's just the way I view things. It's also how I would want to be treated (even though I don't expect it from him). Like I said, it's what we had agreed on six months ago (the exact day) and I am not comfortable going back on my word for the sake of convenience/inconvenience. However, there is absolutely no way I will break Plan B if something can't be arranged. He's going to have to face that truth.

And it's not going to be hard on me; I've let it go now. He'll have to figure something out.

Those are good ideas. Right now it's on him. If he can't work it out, I guess I'll just say he can have a different day.

You know, the whole thing will probably be moot because having his kids around is probably NOT at the top of his list right now. He probably will raise a token wimper or protest and then fade off into the distance.

If he really wanted to be around his kids, he would be at home. Simple as that.

There you go.

Problem solved?

Actually, seeing the kids is the main thing he is a big jerk about. He is using it as a weapon to get to me because it is the one thing he sort of can use to torture me. Plus, he tries to turn himself into the victim (what a joke) by crying that I'm depriving him of the kids if I am less than super cooperative. I agree; if they were that important to him, he would have made an effort to keep this family intact and to stay with them. But I can't tell him that and no one else seems willing to.

Oh, he's playing that game, huh.

Well, just offering a different day (so that you have that on record) should cover yourself if it comes up in the future. Seems reasonable.

Well of course it was meant that way and it was taken as such. What you are saying is that when there are necessary changes due to logistics - which are a way of life in these situations - that it is a poor reflection on one's character and integrity. I am sorry, but that is ridiculous. There is no way to rationalize such a standard. Just because you promise something, and it turns out to be a bad promise for whatever reason, does not mean you can't make other arrangements. It might be a bad idea for you to give him the kids on Fathers Day because of logistics. There is no virtue in honoring a bad promise, after all.

What is important is for your kids to see their father and to celebrate Fathers Day with him. [even though it cannot be overlooked that he has abandoned his children for an affair] It is not punishing him to celebrate this on another day because of the difficult logistics and it most certainly is not a matter of character and integrity.

Hyacinth, I would like to know something, somewhat unrelated to what you were discussing about Father's Day. How exactly do you KNOW that your WH has been asking to come over to do this and that?

I am afraid that you are doing a semi Plan B, and you won't gain the true benefits of being in a real Plan B. You are still receiving way too much information.

And, it is NOT okay for people to talk to you about your WH if you bring it up first. You shouldn't be bringing him up at all. You need to start to focus on making a life for you WITHOUT your WH.

Now, about the visitation, I would do the best outcome to save my sanity in Plan B. If that means refusing the visit, then that is what it would be. If it means that he comes to the house to get the kids, and I let them walk to the door and car by themselves, then that is what I would do. Whatever you choose, it should be YOUR choice, one that is made BY you, told through the IM with minimal back and forth. The back and forth is NOT helping you.

I have been in Plan B so long, and kept as dark as possible that when I do get a correspondence through my IM(once every few MONTHS or so), it actually makes my heart race. So, I would suggest getting everything figured out so you don't need to use the IMs very often, if at all.

The other main reason for the dark plan B is to take away all the EN's you give your ws.

Even acknowledging him might fill SOME random EN. You must pull all EN's away from him if he is to also pull his head out of his butt.

Just sayin'. Plan b is good for killing the affair (harsh reality) but also as Scotty told you, good to keep you sane and free from the psychotic banter of the wayward when they're knee deep in affair crap.

I was just making an assumption based on the first few weeks of Plan B when I hadn't really figured out how to go dark yet. He kept trying to come up with excuses to come to the house then. I assume he still would be saying stuff like that only because I know him so well. But there hasn't been any communication about that.

The Father's Day visit worked out because he worked something out with my IM, like I assumed he would, so I needn't have worried. I just get caught up in trying to stay dark sometimes because it can be a challenge with little kids and visitation and not much consistent help, so I worry a lot about it getting broken.

Actually, I DIDN'T mean it that way and, again, I'm sorry you took it that way. You would probably have to know me in person to know that if I had meant to criticize you, I would have done it directly. I don't tend to beat around the bush.

When I said it's a matter of personal integrity, I meant that it really is my personal standard for myself. And that's it. My choices are never something that I think are right for everyone. I acknowledge that I am not right about everything and don't always make correct choices, but everyone makes individual choices based on their own unique circumstances. I have learned enough about myself to know I have to make choices that I can live with and also not beat myself up about later. I'm not saying I would have adhered to the "Father's Day visit promise" regardless of circumstances, but I do know that as long as there were options that would allow me to keep my word, those needed to be exhausted before I would break it (or it might further damage my already fragile mental/emotional health because I'm definitely my own toughest critic). So, do I always keep my word? Heck, no. But I have to be in a position where I feel it's truly justified in breaking it. And I hadn't reached it quite yet.

Another facet of this is that there's got to be a certain amount of quid pro quo when it comes to the kids. He's petty and vindictive right now -- possibly forever -- but I'm not going to violate an arrangement I want for myself later on if I don't absolutely have to, because then he would think that gave him the justification for violating those agreements himself. He might decide to do mean, selfish, petty, retaliatory, vindictive things, but I'll be darned if I'm going to let him lay the blame at my feet.

If you're in Plan B, a major part of your IM's job is to protect you from the knowledge of how jerky WH is being, including any attempts to use the children against you. If your IM passes on too much extra information, gently let them know what they should be passing on instead - only vital information about the children, completely denuded of hostility.

Example:

Quote

Dear BW,
WH would like to know if he can see the children on Wednesday.
IM

And, after consulting with you, their reply to WH:

Quote

WH,
Thank you for your email. Unfortunately, a visit will not be possible on Wednesday, but you may pick them up Thursday at 3pm if that's convenient for you. Let me know by tomorrow if that will work, and your wife will have the children ready.
Sincerely,
IM

Nice as pie, and you hear nothing of the drama.

I don't know if there is a Dr. H quote about being nice to the WS during a (rare!) face-to-face meeting during Plan B. What I learned was from my dear friend's long-time counselling with SH, while I was acting as one of her IM's.

My friend had to go face-to-face with her WH several times, meeting with the principal at their child's school. Due to the trauma of the A and D, the poor child acted out at school repeatedly, sometimes severely enough that both parents needed to share a meeting with the principal, rather than meet at separate times. During these unfortunate but necessary meetings, my friend was to look her best, and even smile and say hi to her WH, while avoiding small talk.

This avoided LB's that could spoil the tone of her Plan B, while at the same time meeting as few EN's as possible.

At one point, I think it was about 1 1/2 years into PB, one of the children wound up in the emergency room. The OW (with whom WH had been living for many months) had the gall to show up there, too. My friend could legitimately have insisted that the medical staff have OW removed, and for many people that might be the right choice. My friend was polite to WH, and didn't even flick an eyelash in OW's direction. OW sat there the whole time, looking uncomfortable and out of place (as well she should!!!) while my friend and WH cared for their child.

Having given a few snippets of advice on how to behave if there is some sort of emergency contact, or ditto if you ran into each other unexpectedly somewhere, I want to make one thing very clear.

Do everything possible to avoid having to use this advice. For everything foreseeable, avoid any C, even so much as a glimpse of him when he can't see you. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Naught.

You seem to be doing pretty well with that, so the next thing to work on might be worrying a little less when you have to accomplish a NC visitation exchange. Hopefully that will be a matter of just getting a system in place, and letting the system work for you. It's hard having NC visitations with small children, but still doable. Maybe once in a while you have a friend that could come over and babysit for a half hour and make the exchange for you.

It sounds like overall you're doing very well, and just need to streamline the process a little.

Hyacinth,

I understand what you are saying...but don't expect much from your WH in terms of quid pro quo. He'll violate whatever agreement you have if he wants to...it's about them, not us.

I have found that despite me being reasonable, fair, honest (with regards to custody), my WSTBXH becomes satisfied that I gave in on one thing and moves onto something else to be vindictive about. It's like playing whack-a-mole.

I have zero expectations at this point regarding his behavior. I expect him to act like a jerk and I'm never disappointed.

However, I think what you are saying is that you are going to follow your own code of conduct and treat him reasonably, which I agree with.

Personally, I want to look at this time as one where I showed my true colors...I fight for the stuff that is really important, I treat my WSTBXH with respect (albeit from a distance and without ever talking with him), and I put my children 1st. I say I'm going to do something and I do it. Unlike some people...

I have not much of an update; there's not much that's new. I guess that's good. I've been super busy. Since I'm a teacher, I book all my, my kids' and my pets' yearly appointments for the summer and I've spent the last week and a half running around doing that (with still more to go). I've also been working on as much of the house repairs/etc as I can by myself.

He asked my IM for some of his stuff from the house/garage that is still here (like his golf clubs), so the last time my IM's did child exchange, they took him a load of his stuff. I hope that's okay? I need his stuff out of the garage if I'm going to clean it out to be able to park in there (there's a LOT of his junk in there). Also, I'm sick of looking at it. I didn't sort anything; what they took him was a mixed load of stuff he probably wants and stuff that was pretty clearly junk that he'll just throw out. Better it be his problem than mine. He's left a bunch of messes behind for me to deal with, so as much as I can put back on him the better, I think.

He sent a communication through my IM last week with a couple of questions about summer visitation with the kids but also she said he asked a question about how we want to divide up property and debt, which she told me about because she thought it was a financial issue (I told her it really wasn't, for future reference). I'm not sure what his agenda is with that question/issue, but I'm sure there is one. Anyway, I told her just to respond that is something that would be worked out in a divorce if that is what he wants.

She's good and doesn't pass on anything about his attitude, but I've been with him for 25 years. I know how he's reacting to all this: like a child.

Here's another problem I'm having. He keeps forcing communication with me on child-related issues. Asking questions like what time will they be dropped off at daycare during the summer (this has bearing on what time he has to pick them up at daycare on the days he has visitation, since the contract is for a specific amount of time). In many cases, these are questions I feel he should know the answer to, if he'd paid attention at all the past five years we've had kids. I don't know if he legitimately doesn't know the answer or if it's a ploy to force even this minimal contact/feedback from me. And my IM doesn't know in some of these cases when it is a kid-related issue if it really needs an answer without asking me if it does. For example, the daycare time thing IS important, so if he didn't know the answer - which he should have, it's the same as every other summer, but who knows if he knows that - then he DID need an answer. It seems like he can't go more than a week/ten days without contacting her for some information or other, almost always child-related.

Should this be a concern? And really, what can I do?

Just give IM the time and try not to outguess the reasons WH is asking.
Just the facts.
Time to pick them up.

If you have to stay in plan B a long time, it will get less and less of inquiry through IM.

You WH is still getting with the program.

Can you foresee things that may come up in the future? If so, write an email to your IM with all of the details, then, when your WH emails her, she will already have the answers and you won't even need to be involved.

I only worry that the constant back and forth with the IM will keep you stuck.

In my case, whenever I see that the IM has sent me a message, my heart starts to race and adrenaline starts to pump through my veins as I open the email bracing for what is going to be said. It sends me for a tailspin, and although you may not be feeling this way(as you are getting messages a lot more often than I), it IS affecting you.

So your mission, figure out all of the possible questions that he could ask you about the kids, and send one email to IM with all of the answers and some standard responses to certain things he says. If he asks about how to divide up assets, response, "We'll let the lawyers handle that." Figure all of the things out in advance so there is less communication through the IMs that you are aware of.

That's the thing. When I started Plan B I already gave him all the kid-related info I could think of.

The stuff that he asks about now is either scheduling stuff (he travels for work and that affects visitation sometimes or pick-up/drop-off logistics because there is no one who can do it the same every single time) or questions I can't and didn't predict.

And I do get sick when my IM says she has an email from him.