My story: Me, the BW, (40), WH (42). Together 24 years (high school sweethearts), married 18 years, 2 children, ages 2 and 5. Husband had short affair in November 2010 while on a five day business trip. I discovered it almost immediately, as his behavior changed overnight. I�ve known this man since I was 16 years old. He came home a completely different person. Now he claims he�s been miserable for a long time (total garbage and trying to justify what he did) and isn�t sure our marriage is fixable (afraid to do the work and afraid I'll never trust him again). As far as I know he hasn�t seen OW again (she lives 3,000 miles away), but has remained in contact with her. He said he was going to move out, but I kicked him out first because he was dragging his feet about leaving while in constant communication with her and treating me with anger and hostility all the time. I was losing my mind. I also exposed to our family and close friends.

After three weeks of almost no contact between us (and this was over the holidays, too), we started talking again, tentatively discussing working things out. He�s very depressed, ashamed and doubtful things can be repaired. We started working on UA, spending a lot of time together, getting a babysitter once or twice a week, etc. He still lives in his crappy apartment. He seemed to have broken contact with her for the first month that he and I were discussing what we should do, but then I checked the wireless bill and saw that she had texted him once and he had texted her back once. When I confronted him, he claimed she had texted him to ask if she could call and he told her it wasn;t a good idea Then he said he knew I would never trust him again. After that, he became distant and they were in contact again for a couple of weeks, while I started doing as much Plan A-ing I could, but I realize I�m not really Plan Aing because he doesn�t live here. Also, my Plan A seems to be all carrot and no stick. No one is putting any pressure on him because to them there is no OW, she�s too far away and he�s downplaying the A and telling them that our marriage was just broken. And it�s such a departure from anything anyone ever expected from him (complete and total shock by everyone I told without exception, just as I felt), that they believe him because none of this makes sense anyway.

I've read HNHN, LB and SAA and am doing as much as I can alone, as he is barely trying. Contact between them (according to the wireless bill) seems off again, on again. He�ll come around me and the kids and be loving and giving for a week and have no communication with her, then will avoid us for a couple days while he texts or talks to her. Then he�ll be back around and it will seem like he�s broken contact. Then she�ll contact text him again and he�ll freak out and disappear again. We made what I thought was a lot of progress in the last couple of weeks, but I had already decided that my semi-�Plan A� had a deadline of the end of February, because I'm really starting to feel hurt and angry all the time because he's so ambivalent and apathetic.

On this Monday, Feb 28 I gave him the MB home study course that I had ordered, asked him to look it over and said I�d like to know what he thought by this coming weekend. (Before he leaves for a business trip on Sunday.) And then yesterday (Wednesday) she texted him (after about ten days of no contact) and they texted NON-STOP, ALL DAY. This is more contact that he�s had with her in the last two months all total (based on our wireless bills)!

I think our discussion this Saturday can go one of three ways 1) He�ll say �Let�s do MB.� (Don�t expect this), 2) He�ll say �I don�t want to do MB.� (Also don�t expect this � he�s a HUGE conflict avoider), 3) He�ll say �I don�t know� I didn�t really have a chance to look at it. (This is what I expect. And it�s a total lie. He�s had plenty of time this week.) Regardless, I fully expect to give him a Plan B letter and tell him to go away until he has his head on straight, if ever. I have reached the end of my rope and am really starting to resent him, so I know it�s time.

Here are some of my logistical problems with Plan B:

Our children. It�s impossible for me to go truly dark and have no contact with him. Our kids are 2 and 5. We live far away from family and don�t have friends in the town we live in that are able to offer much help or that could act as intermediaries. Even if we did, we�re in a situation where he has to come over every morning to take the kids to daycare. I work out of town and cannot take them to daycare every day due to the length of my commute and the amount of time daycare allows. (For instance, when he travels, I have to get up at four in the morning to get the kids and I ready and out the door, have to make arrangements for daycare to open early so I can drop them off in time to get to work, have to pay extra to leave them there that long and sometimes have to get permission to leave work early to pick them up. I cannot do that every day. I wouldn�t be able to function like that, can�t afford it and would probably lose my job.)

Timing. I�m having surgery March 17th. He had already agreed to take me to surgery and bring me home and help care for me for a few days. I have a friend who is going to take me and bring me home, but she can�t stay with me the first 24 hours like someone is supposed to. We don�t have any family close to us. There isn�t anyone I know who could take time off work to do this for me. I�ll also need his help with the kids for several days, and he doesn�t have anywhere he can have them stay (his apartment is too tiny with very little furniture), so he will probably need to stay here. We had already worked all this out. Should I try to postpone Plan B until after my surgery? That would be almost another month. I don�t think I can bear to do that.

Money. Our finances are completely fused and there�s no way to separate them completely while we are still married. We own two properties together, have a large home equity line of credit, have all our insurance policies together (life, car, homeowners, disability), etc. I can�t afford to separate these. Right now both of our paychecks are deposited into our joint account and I manage our finances. I pay both mortgages, daycare, utilities, etc out of those joint funds. Most things like insurance and most other bills are just automatically withdrawn from our joint account. My student loans have been consolidated, but it was money used by both of us to live and update our first house, so he helps me pay. I bought a new car last year which is in my name, but it�s our family car so he helps me pay. (The deal we made years ago is we take my car everywhere and I get a new one every five years and we hardly ever use his truck so he will keep it forever and drive it into the ground. His truck is paid off). That�s why all of our finances are merged. We have always viewed all debt as joint debt because we�ve been together so long. If I started to separate our finances, I�m pretty sure he would move his paycheck to his solo account. He makes more than double what I make. I can�t move bills like the student loans and car payment out of our joint account because I cannot afford to pay those bills by myself, but because they�re in my name he doesn�t �have� to help. I can�t separate my insurance policies from his because I can�t afford to pay for them myself. I can�t afford to separate and pay my wireless bill myself, because he gets us a 20% discount through his employer and the bill also includes our very expensive wireless internet access/modem (we can�t get cable internet access where we are). If we do get divorced, he will have to pay me enough in child support and spousal support that I will just be able to swing things as long as I sell the house I�m in and get something smaller and cheaper (I�ve already used our state�s online support calculator).

House. Our house, the one I�m still living in, is too large and has too much property for me to maintain alone. It�s been a huge struggle since I made him leave. Compounding this is that it�s situated very privately and rurally and when the weather gets bad, he has to come over and plow me out or I would literally be trapped here (we basically live on a mountain with our own private road). Or if the road gets too muddy and impassable in the spring, he has to use machinery to re-grade it.

Is there any hope for a Plan B?

Hello Hyacinth. I'm sorry about your situation.

Who is the OW? Is she married? Did you expose to her husband, family, friends? Sound like they're colleagues, so exposure should be done to their employers, too, including management and HR.

Regarding your logistical problems with Plan B, did you have these same problems during the three week period over holidays? What I'm really asking is whether it was truly "almost no contact."

Do you think he's meeting OW Sunday?

Can you put spyware on his phone to learn the content of his texts with OW?

Regarding Plan B, for it to be effective, there needs to be no contact with WH whatsoever.

It sounds like you already know that he's getting some of his needs met by OW and some of his needs met by contact with you and the kids. He thinks he can have it all, and at this point he is succeeding. You realize this, which is why you're wise enough to want to break the cycle.

Pretend for a moment that you are divorced. Would you still want him to come over your house every morning to pick up the kids for daycare?

You are smart to figure out all the financial issues and other logistics before going to a true Plan B. The people here will help you through those issues.

Have you considered doing the MB phone counseling/coaching?

I think it would be money very well spent to have your WH speak with them.

Do you think he might be willing?

Has family put pressure on him to end contact with OW? What is his response to them? Avoidance?

(Edit: I re-read what you said about this ... that nobody thinks there's an OW because she lives far away and they believe his denials. How did you expose - orally or in writing? Have you offered any evidence that the affair is real, that it continues and it's destroying your family?)

OW is 25 and divorced. She lives on the other side of the country, 3,000 miles away. They aren't colleagues; they are in similar professions. He does training seminars and she was a student in one of his seminars. I can't say for sure that he's not meeting her, but my vibe is that he's not. He's not going to be anywhere near where she lives. Although I admit I could be wrong about it and maybe they are meeting.

Over the holidays, it was easier to do almost no contact because I am a teacher, so I didn't have to work for most of the three weeks after I kicked him out. There were a few days when he did take the kids to school, but as soon as he walked in the house I walked out, which is about all I can think of to do now. Also, he was on a business trip for several days before the holidays and his mother was here visiting, so she stayed with me and cared for the kids so they didn't have to go to daycare. (I told her the whole story while she was here, but she's even a bigger conflict avoider than him. She's so passive - that's where he learned it - and although she claimed she was going to ask him about OW, I know she never did. She lives 1,500 miles away, so they mostly communicate by email and text, and I've read some of his emails to his mom and he lies to her, downplaying everything.)

I can't ever get my hands on his phone. Also, he does computer and technology investigative work for a living, so I say without a doubt that if I could put spyware on his phone he would find it immediately.

Oh yes. For example, during your surgery you could have him take the kids to his house and hire a nurse to stay with you for 24 hours. As far as your work/babysitter situation, you are going to have to figure that all out when you are divorced anyway, so you need to get that worked out now. I would approach this with the attitude that you are getting divorced and perhaps even file for divorce so you are protected legally in matters of finances and child visitation.

He will have to continue to pay your bills. If you don't file, he can just stop paying if the spirit moves him. And this is very common.

Get your lives legally separated and then go into Plan B.

Who is the OW and have you exposed the affair to her family? Is she married? What does she do? Who is she?

You said your H has spun the story to some folks. Have you been in contact with those people to give them the correct story?

Does she have a facebook page?

Hyacinth, this is not the kind of stuff that is relevant any longer. You are on the precipice of the ruination of your marriage. Staying in contact with him is what Dr Harley calls "Plan C" for compromise and is the most likely to lead to divorce. Staying in touch with him is wearing you down mentally and physically and when you have a nervous breakdown from all this abuse, your marriage really will be over. If you don't grow to hate him first.

Forget the phone bills and get into Plan B. Get yourself legally protected so he has to continue to pay the bills. Get into the DIVORCED mindset. I realize that sounds oxymoronic, but getting into Plan B, and getting yourself protected is the best hope for your marriage.

I don't think he would consider MB phone counseling/coaching. He's refused to go to counseling here, I think mostly because he's uncomfortable discussing his feelings with anyone. Even to his friends and family. He's a pretty stoic closed book. His mom even admitted she knows that. She said she always thought I was good for him, because he would open up to me and not anyone else.

His family is putting NO pressure on him. I think he's painted a picture that our marriage was hell and he was miserable and I was a B... After I initiate Plan B, I am calling his mother again to give her an update. No one in either of our families knows we've been "talking" or anything. Like I said, they live far away. Also, we hadn't reached any conclusions or even started a recovery program/counseling, so there wasn't much to tell. Part of my plan is to call his mom, who I'm fairly close to, and update her that we tried to work it out but he continued to lie to me the whole time these past two months. Like I said, he's downplayed the OW as a one-time mistake that he regretted and said he was only leaving because our marriage was terrible. And he's avoided talking to them at all, really. They need to know the truth.

When we get divorced, he will be coming over every day to take the kids to daycare and later to put them on the school bus. We were working on a custody agreement during our previous separation and that was something we

That is a really bad idea and I would rethink that. You won't be able to count on that if you are divorced and remarried, for example. That won't be good for you in any way.

Hyacinth, I would focus on 2 things: getting your ducks in a row to go into an air tight Plan B, and exposing this affair. And what I mean by that is that you call his family members and friends, tell them the truth and ask them to use their persuasion to influence him to end his affair. Tell them all about the continued affair. Ask for their help. Call everyone you both know and enlist them.

On the same day, I would do a nuclear explosion to the OW's side. Expose to her parents, friends, family and EMPLOYER. Write the HR director at her company and tell them about the affair. While they probably can't/won't do anything, just exposing it there will put her on the spot. I am hoping she has a facebook page, because sending private messages to all her FB friends can be very effective.

Have you spoken to her yet? I would do that next. Tell her that your H is married and ask her to leave your H alone.

She has one but it is locked down completely. You can't even see her friend list. They were friends on Facebook, but when I confronted him, he obviously told her and she blocked me. Then, when he "came back around" starting in January, he unfriended her. (Other people could see her and she's gone from his list, and his list number totals the number of friends I can see, too).

This is why the story should come from YOU. Additionally, his family needs to know the NAME of this wh*re so they won't allow her around. They need to know, and the OW needs to know they know. See, she is probably counting on taking your place, but she will have second thoughts if she knows the whole family knows she is a marriage wrecking skankho.

When you call her, let her know there is no future for her because she will be eternally hated by your in-laws and your children for her part in wrecking your marriage. Let her know the whole family knows she is nothing more than an OW. Let her know if this comes to divorce that you will bar her legally from being around your children.

You are probably blocked, so either set up another facebook page so you can get a list of her friends or ask a friend to do it. Copy and paste her friends' names into a word doc and save it.

Here is a sample letter you can send out - when you do this, space them out a minute apart so fb does not shut you down for flooding:

Facebook exposure suggestions



Dear friend of Skankyhola,

It is with great regret that I send this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Skanky is having an affair with my husband, Joe. We have been married for 5 years and have 3 heartbroken children. They have been having this affair since October according to the evidence.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would ask that you use your influence with Skanky to persuade her to leave my husband alone. You should also watch your own husbands around her because she is no friend to marriage.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify her parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.

Thank you, BW

Exposure killed my H's affair DEAD on the very day I exposed.

This is your best bet if you even want a chance at recovery. My Plan B was only about 6 weeks long because the A died the day I exposed.

READ THIS:

another great post about facebook exposures:


To add to Tabby's excellent suggestions, send the messages a minute apart so fb doesn't shut you down for flooding. Before you start, copy and paste all the friends into a WORD doc.

I really have no way to contact her family, friends and workplace. I have no way of knowing who her friends are (can't even see her friend list on Facebook). She lives on the other side of the country. I have no way of knowing who her family is. A google search of her turns up NOTHING. And here's why: As for work, she is in law enforcement and works for a very large government agency. I have minimal details about her job and I think it's possible that she works undercover (she texted him from an undercover cellphone once). Even if I could contact her workplace, they're not going to give out any details about her, the name of her supervisor, etc. They might even disavow that she works there.

If anyone has suggestions on this, I'd love to hear them.

As for Facebook, I KNOW I am blocked. But even before I was blocked, I still couldn't see her friends list. And when I log in as my best friend, I can still see her "profile," but all you can see is her picture and her name. That's it. Like I said, she is locked down tight (probably because of the sensitive nature of her job). Facebook is a no go. Believe me, I checked this out a long time ago.

I would start to focus on ways to find solutions rather than reasons why you CAN'T do something. Do you realize you are doing that? You seem to have a reason why you can't do almost everything necessary to protect yourself and save your marriage. We aren't going to be able to help you if you can't do anything we suggest.

Ok, then contact a PI and get a background check on her. here They usually charge $200-400 for a background check. As far as exposing her at work, you can send a letter to the Director of Human Resources where she works.

I did tell his family my side of the story, but whatever he told them afterwards, they believe him now. My brother-in-law even told me I was in denial about my marriage and that he believed what WH said about being miserable for a long time, and I was 50% to blame, that there was no fixing it and I should just move on. They all believe that OW is nothing.

This is the one thing I am going to change. When I talk to his mom after I initiate Plan B, I'm going to copy phone records and everything and show her that he's been lying to them for four months like he's been lying to me.

You have her cell phone number from your cell bill, right?

Try googling that, see what you come up with. Then call that POS and tell her your H is MARRIED and that she needs to leave him ALONE. This is at least a start.

You can also google her name + Facebook. From there you might be able to see where she has posted on other people's walls, which would at least give you the names of some of her friends.

Let us know what you come up with and what she says when you call her. Do not be timid when you call her, be strong and in control. You CAN do this!

But if you did this now, you could get her support sooner.

ITA with Mel. It's all about will Hyacinth. You have the intel to make this happen. You just need the will.

"What one needs in life are the pessimism of intelligence and the optimism of will"--Andre de Staercke

Hyacinth.

Listen to MelodyLane.

The key to your marriage surviving is exposure. Everyone, and I do mean everyone, needs to know. I even told my DD4.

Meanwhile, get thee to an attorney. Start making plans for legal separation, if your state has it. You cannot count on him for anything. I trusted my H until recently when he drained our joint checking account and started brazenly charging dinners with OW on our joint credit cards. I started Plan B immediately before filing for separation and should have done the opposite.

The separation will protect your rights as a parent and your finances.

As far as Plan B goes, I have a DD4 and have been able to limit my contact with H to 1x/week. If he comes to my home to pick up/drop off) and I'm the only one there, I will hide (in bathroom with hairdryer on, in bedroom, etc.) until he leaves, which is usually quickly since he knows I won't talk to him.

He's tried to talk to me and sometimes, I've given in. But I've always regretted it. So, it's best for you if you don't physically see him or speak to him when you're in Plan B.

But until then, it sounds like you need to expose and then see and attorney.

These are good ideas and I'm looking into this right now. Thanks for the link. I'm going to have to come up with the money somewhere, I guess. That's going to be hard, because since he moved out, we've been in the red every month and we've almost maxed out our credit cards trying to make ends meet.

As for contacting her work, I have thought of that. I will need help writing that letter. Does anyone have suggestions on what to say? I'm trying to find out if her agency has an ethics code or anything.

Developed by Brits Brat, board member and corporate attorney:

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

BS

Write that letter to her work! She may have some type of morality clause in her terms of employment. This letter could blow the whole thing wide open.

There is no legal separation in my state.

Can I admit one of my fears? That if I contact her, she'll change her cell phone number and then I won't be able to track their communication. Or that he will get a secret cell phone and go completely underground (he did this at first, until I confronted him, then he obviously stopped paying it because their contact has been on his phone on our bill). The wireless bill is the only info I have at this point. But I guess I just need to come to terms with that.

I will contact her, but again, I'm not really sure what to say. I don't want to just come off as a stalker-ish, crazy BW who she can just dismiss. And what do I do if she just hangs up? Or doesn't even answer (leave a message, I guess?)?

Why are you waiting to do this? If you have information that confirms the affair, you can present that to his family so they can see that you are not in "denial."

Also try googling her name on www.intelius.com

That will bring up her name and associated names. You may find her siblings, her parents, HER HUSBAND...these are excellent exposure targets.

I think it cost me $1.95 to get detailed info. Lots of bang for the buck.

Hyacinth, I suggest that you DO let her think you're a stalker-ish, crazy BW! What do you want her to think, that you're a sweet little person who is no threat to her?

Hell's bells, woman - I'd let her know in no uncertain terms that you are not going to sit idly by while some skanko POS immoral sleaze-bag tries to steal your H! Oh, hell, no.

Then file for divorce.


I am not following why this would be a problem? And even so, when you do call her, you don't tell her how you know exactly. Just tell her you "know all about" and know she is having an affair with your husband. You don't give up your source.


Don't leave a message. Just tell her that you are married to WS and ask her what she wants with your H. Tell her what I said above about being eternally hated by your children and there being no future. But FIRST, expose the affair.

How do you know this? From your husband?

Here's why I ask: my W had an EA with a co-worker who told her he was separated and on the brink of divorce. And that's what I was told until I called OM's W. OM's wife was quite surprised to hear that, unbeknownst to her, she and her husband were separated and about to divorce. Seems no one had told her that!

Until you verify it yourself, don't trust what your husband tells you.

Yesirrree. OW is very possibly married and 35. And your WH probably told her that HE is divorced.

Reason: the betrayed spouses are a pesky little detail that hampers romance, so their status in the marriage is generally altered to accommodate the affair.

There's no point in having intel if you aren't going to USE it. If she changes her cell number to another one, it will be obvious on your cell bill ~ you will see the same number of high amounts of TMs and calls and you will know it's her.

They might just take it further underground (this is common) but again, if you have intel and aren't using it, what's the point?


You tell her that you are Mrs. (blank), WH's WIFE, and that he is still very much MARRIED. Tell her you are fighting for this M, and that you know she is just a 25 year old little girl who is now a HOMEWRECKER. Tell her that WH's family already knows about her and she will never be accepted by them or your children since she is a homewrecker. Tell her you will not sit idly by and watch her steal everything that you have worked so hard for and that if she continues to try you will make her life a living h*ll.

If she hangs up on you, call back and leave a VM. But try to talk to her in person first. Call her a few times until she answers.

Stop being afraid. What do you have to lose at this point? Your H has already left you and your children. You have NOTHING to lose and EVERYTHING to gain by following the advice here by many of us who have saved our marriages by doing the things we suggest.

ITA. All WS's lie about the true state of their M. My H did the same thing.

Don't believe what your WH is telling you about anything right now.

I already used intelius and another online service. Yielded me what may be her home address, but nothing else.

He actually told me she was 27. I got her real birthday from her FB page once when I was able to get my hands on his phone back in December.

The divorced thing I did get from him. Although, he could have just told me she was single. How would I ever know the difference?

The reason why I haven't contacted his mom again yet is that I don't want him to have a clue what's coming until I'm ready to move, although I don't know whether that's tactical or a tactical error. I'm just trying to get my ducks in a row and not go off half-cocked. I want a well formulated plan with all my evidence and stuff ready so I can spread it far and wide before he has time to start doing damage control.

Back in December, his mom did offer to call OW, but I forgot about that until now! When I call her, I'm going to give her the girl's cell phone number, work phone number, home address (assuming what I got was correct) and work address and ask her to contact OW.

In fact, I think I might make "information packets" for our friends and family, with evidence and her contact information. How does that sound?

I know she knows about me because she was his friend on Facebook and I am listed as his wife and there were pictures of me and the kids all over his profile. Also, she blocked me the day after I confronted him and told him I knew, so I know he told her I found out.

Don't try just one people finder. You can get different info from different search engines.

Try these:
www.pipl.com
www.spokeo.com
www.peekyou.com (this was a really good one, but I just tried it and it looks like the link may be broken. Try it anyway - maybe it's my computer.)

Have you been over to Operation Investigate on this site? Check it out - there's a ton of snooping tools there that may help you.

Thanks for these sites. I went and checked my Intelius account and realized I never paid for the full background check, so I did. It didn't yield much extra (for the lots extra it cost!), but I do now have some more info. I found out she currently uses her maiden name. I have her ex-husband's name and the date of their divorce (2008 - seriously, she was 23! And her ex-husband is my WH's age, 42). I have what I think is her father's name and also possibly some ex-in-laws. There are three other names with the same last name as her ex-husband, listed as "relatives" that a search reveals are 52, 66 and 56 years old. Unfortunately, I doubt the ex-husband will care.

I think I may have found an intermediary. It's a friend and her husband who live about 30 miles away, but they're really the only ones who are anywhere nearby who I trust to do it. Plus they know both of us and have no kids of their own, so my hope is that it would be easier on them to do it without it encroaching on their own obligations. I talked to my friend this morning and told her to think about it and talk to her husband.

I'm working on what to say to the OW when I call her this weekend. I can't do this totally "unscripted" because I will get too flustered and not say the things that I want to say. I want to be calm, cool and collected when I call. I'm trying to figure out a good time to call (for me, not for her) because my kids make it impossible to have any phone call if they're awake. Anyone with little boys probably knows what I'm talking about. I DO NOT want to be interrupted or distracted during this call!

I'm worried my Plan B letter isn't strong enough. I already know it's too long, but I don't think I've stressed the no contact with him part enough. Also, it doesn't include any of the logistics because I'm still working them out and I like the idea of all those being in an addendum like MarriedForever suggests in the Notable Post on How to Plan B Correctly. I'll post my Plan B letter here soon so I can get a critique on it.

I also started to compose a letter/email/FB message to send to all our friends and family, detailing what they may or may not know, busting some of his half-truths and lies downplaying the other woman and inflating the poor state of our marriage and asking them for help. I'll post that too when I get a draft finished.

Thanks everyone for your help and tough love!

Exhusbands can be very effective exposure targets, because they often can be a wealth of information. Sometimes they can even use the affair in any legal actions they have with the OP.

You are doing great! And like MF said, get all your ducks in a row and make plans to avoid any and all contact beforehand.

Any suggestions on contacting the ex-husband? What to ask him for? I don't have a current address or phone number for him, but I'm sure I could find one. I just assumed he'd rather not be bothered with the situation and I can't really think of how he could be a help. They've been divorced since 2008.

One of the pros/cons about this situation is that she is 3,000 miles away. We are almost on one coast and she is almost on the other.

That makes no difference at all. They can conduct the affair over email, phone, internet. And they can be together in 4 hours via airplane.

I guess my point is that people here seem to think that she thinks she's trying hard to "steal him away." It's just not the vibe I get. I think if this was something they were planning, they'd be a lot more hot & heavy, wouldn't they? Not sporadic contact every few weeks. Plus, he CAN'T leave our state because of his job (and can't change jobs either right now, due to the nature of his work -- hard to explain) and based on what I know about her job, she's not very mobile either. However, I also am not dumb enough to think that kind of craziness is out of the realm of possibility, either.

One thing I do know about his family is that they have told him in NO uncertain terms NOT to ever try to bring her around if that was an idea he had. There's a lot of family history re: affairs that is ugly. However, this is also how I know that he's painted them a picture that she was a one-time mistake and is "unimportant" (this is something his sister told me he said) and that our marriage was torture, because once they initially confronted him back in December, they've been like "Oh, okay... well, if that's how it is then..." and haven't really concerned themselves with it since.

Here is my Plan B letter. I "borrowed" a LOT of language from about a dozen or so letters I read here on MB and elsewhere, so if some of it seems familiar, that's why. And thank you to the people who wrote those parts.

I already know that it's probably too long. Also, I'm worried parts of it aren't specific enough or strong enough. Thanks in advance for all the criticism and suggestions.

Dear WH,

I know that this is hard. Some days are better and some days are worse than others. I�ve made many mistakes in the past and I can�t change that or take them back, but I am working hard to be a person I can be happy and proud of being. I want you to know that, even though I also sometimes have doubts and I�m also struggling with all of this, I love you. You are the smartest, funniest, sexiest man I know. I know you better than any other person in the world does and I know it�s inside you to be the man I need you to be, because you once were. If we really try, we can make this work. I believe in you, in me, and in us. I�m willing to put the past behind us and do whatever it takes to make this the marriage we�ve both always wanted. I have confidence that you have the capacity to do the same.

The past few months have been very rough on each of us. I've been trying to give you hope for our marriage by learning how to be a better wife and partner to you, to give you hope that you could return to a marriage that we both want and deserve. I�ve been trying to give you space to work your feelings out on your own. However, the pain that I suffer on a daily basis is becoming almost too much to bear. We�ve taken no measurable steps toward recovery or healing; in fact, I feel like we�re standing still. I need to be treated with love and respect. I need to have my emotional needs met. How you act is your choice to make, so I�ve tried not to make too many demands on you to act otherwise, however, as long as I keep feeling this way, I�m only going to be hurt, resentful, and angry toward you and we risk recreating the environment that made this possible in the first place. I know that in order for us to heal from this you need forgiveness from me, but there are things I need from you to be able to give it. When you are ready to offer your openness and honesty to me and willingness to move forward together, I�m ready to talk about what we both think this will take.

When you are ready to give me your full commitment to working on us, I would love to talk with you about our future. This means that I need you to be ready to commit to an active plan of recovery for our marriage. I�m not asking for a guarantee that we will both decide to stay together, I�m asking for both of us wanting this marriage if we can make it work and a commitment to working on it with all we�ve got. This also means that you have to be ready to end any and all communication and connection with her permanently. As long as you are keeping a place for her in your life, there is no room for me.

But until we have some kind of plan in place, until we are actively working on this plan and have determined a way to measure our progress, we need to keep our distance from each other. This isn�t about me trying to make you do something. You have to find your own way. You have to make your own decisions. I have to do the same. I hope that you understand that I am not doing this to hurt you or punish you, but to protect myself and my feelings for you. Please understand that I need to preserve the love I have for you, so that if we decide to give our marriage a new chance, I will still have enough love left for you that I might want to try again, too. And if we don�t, then I will have had the space and time to detach from you and move on with my life. Right now, in order for me to protect the feelings I still have for you, I need to have as little contact with you as possible, so that I can manage my emotions and prepare to move forward.

Even now, it's not too late. We still have a chance to be happy together. I want to grow old with you. I loved you more I think you ever knew while we were together and I continue to do so as I write this. When you find yourself ready to truly and fully commit to me and our family, to work on a plan for our recovery, and to be open, honest and loving with me, I am ready and willing to discuss our future.

I love you,
Me

Really? No one can help me with this letter? (Sorry if I seem impatient.)

I forgot to note that you need to add a line like this:

________________ has agreed to arrange for visitations with the children and any financial issues.

Yes, I know I can be very wordy. Thanks for the critique. I think I understand why you made some of the cuts, but I'm not so sure about some of the others. Any more information you can share? Thanks again.

I am not strong in the wording and editing of a Plan B letter, so I will leave that to the others.

What I AM better at is actually planning, implementing and following through with a Plan B.

You CAN and SHOULD Plan B, completely dark, with young children. Granted, my children aren't as young as yours, but they were 6 and 9 when I entered Plan B. They are also boys. Only a mother of sons can understand.

Now, you need to listen to what MelodyLane has said to you. She is a GREAT poster and you are LUCKY to have her posting to you, so take advantage of that fortune and LISTEN UP.

Expose this affair and this time, give out your evidence, especially to his mother. Let her call him, and OW and lay into them. Get it out there.

The OWxH may be able to tell you more about OW. You may even get contact info for family members.

I wouldn't be surprised if OWxH was a MM and their "marriage" was an affairage.

Now, you will need to figure out how you are going to Plan B. You can't just say, "Well, I can't," and throw up your hands. My WH was going to come to my house, watch our children in MY home while I worked the night shift. I took a pay cut, changed my shift, lost some hours and even the ability to be promoted in the company so I could go to Plan B. It wasn't easy, and even still isn't, but it's what I had to do.

If you can't think about what it would be like to be divorced from your WH and need to plan for Plan B, what would happen if he died? Who would watch your children then? What would you do in that scenario?

A lot of it was saying the same thing in a different way.

Mostly, I left the main points, well stated and so that a wayward, half checked out guy could know he was loved deeply and that you were in pain and had to disconnect from the triangle though you are open to rebuilding if he changes his mind and finds he wants to.

I like readings strike throughs. Since I am mildly ADD, and your WS is foggy, I added verbiage that makes it CLEAR AND CONCISE what the point is, becuase I didn't really get it from reading this. I think you may even need to cut this back more because too many words constitute visual pollution. And when you are speaking to a foghorn you have to be CLEAR AS A BELL.

Will you rewrite with these changes and then let us look at it again? Reading, you did a super job!

Thank you everyone for all your edits in my letter and for explaining why you made the changes you did. I'm interested in the process as much as the product, so I need to understand.

I'm making edits to my letter and I found an intermediary, I think. I had been planning on giving him the PBL tonight, but I think I need to make more arrangements before I do because things are not all ready to go. He will be gone for three days starting tomorrow, so that takes the pressure off me just a little from feeling like I have to act immediately, since with him not being around for those days regardless of what is said tonight, the point is sort of moot (at least until Wednesday).

I'm also a little worried about implementing Plan B before my surgery, which is 12 days away. I really will need a lot of help with my children then because they're so young and I will have very limited mobility at least for the first several days and possibly into the next week. I know this sounds like something that could be worked around, but I can't figure out how. Do you all have family and friends that are geographically close to you or how do you get help? Because my closest relative is over 100 miles away. And everyone works, so it's not like they can just pick up and come visit. Postponing implementing Plan B until after my surgery would also give me more time to make arrangements, because this is proving to be a logistical nightmare, as I'm sure anyone who has done it knows. But emotionally I really do wish I could implement it tonight, because I'm starting to really resent him. I'm so tired of being hurt.

I'm working out what to say to the OW when I call her. I am too much of a planner to do it off the cuff. I want to be very calm when I do it and for that I need to be prepared.

I'm working out the rest of the little details, but some things (like my work schedule) aren't modifiable or changeable, so I have to figure out a way to work around them.

If anyone has any more suggestions, I'm open to them.

Can you give some of these relatives a call? Tell them you're having surgery, husband is too busy with his affair to help with you and the kids and could use their help.

You never know unless you ask.


Keep it short and sweet. Write out what you want to say, read it and hang up on the bisch. Tell her what she IS going to do, don't ASK her to do anything.

Tell her that the affair is over and that everyone knows about it. Tell her she is trying to destroy your family and that there is no way in hell that she's going to get away with it. Tell her that she is going to get the h out of your husband's life right now. Tell her that she has pis$ed off a ton of people in both of your families and that there is no way that she will have a future with him. Tell her that she does not want to go down this road and ALL OF YOU (emphasize the plural here) will make her life a living hell if she doesn't disappear immediately.

Then hang up, don't listen to anything she says. Be in charge of the conversation.

Hyacinth, I don't see how 3 more weeks is going to hurt anything and I agree with your thinking that it will give you time to get your ducks in a row. I think you have done a SUPER job of getting on board here and coming up with proactive solutions. I was worried at first! You are doing great!

I agree with Mel, you don't NEED to do this TODAY. You could do plan A for a few weeks and then, BAM, Plan B. You want to do this when you are ready for it.

You CAN Plan B when you have no family near by. It IS possible. Like I said, you need to act as if your WH has DIED, because in some ways, he has. What would you do then? Think about it creatively. Ask around. Talk to your employers.

And, I see you are concerned that you are so resentful. Tell your resentful part (Taker) the date you are holding out for to implement Plan B.
Having the date in mind will help you ride out a Plan A longer. Your Taker will know that, heck, this is for you. In your best interest, and its all good. Date coming up and put in all the Plan A yummy stuff you can before you shut the door. Some extra frosting on the cake of the lovely marriage.

As for holding out until after my surgery to Plan B, every day I go back and forth as to whether I can do that. I've been in Plan A since January. At the beginning of February I was almost at the breaking point, but I hadn't picked an ending time for it so I decided to pick the end of February and stick it out until then. I've been meeting every single one of his emotional needs. I haven't been LBing (maybe two EO in two months -- crying jags -- and that's it). It's not like he hasn't noticed; he has acknowledged how great I am being. And he is not meeting hardly any of mine. His #1 love language is "Acts of Service" and that is the one thing that he has been doing a lot of. I have noticed that he takes great pains to be extra helpful and supportive with things that need done. Unfortunately, it's not one of my top languages. My top language is "Words of Affirmation." I think he's said two positive things to me in two months. (And it's not like he doesn't know this. We took the Love Language test again in January and I also specifically asked him for more verbal feedback and told him it was for that reason). I'm not getting affection, conversation, or most of the things I need. My Taker has been really patient and cooperative so far most of the time, I have to admit, because I've been working very hard at it. I am so depressed some days I can barely function and yes, I am in therapy and on an anti-depressant already because of this. I've lost so much weight that everyone who doesn't know what's going on in my personal life thinks I am very physically ill (tons of people have asked close friends if I am sick). I am really feeling like just a huge doormat at this point. And then I feel like feeling like a doormat is my own fault for putting up with it. This is SO the exact opposite of my personality.

Another logistical concern I have about waiting to Plan B is that we're planning a trip together at the beginning of April. I've made some of the reservations for it, but not all and I haven't bought the plane tickets yet because I know Plan B is coming. (I'd like to be optimistic that he'll make the right choices and decide to do the hard work, but let's be realistic.) Anyway, if I wait two more weeks to start Plan B, what do I do about planning this trip? This trip is a really big deal to him, it's a gift from me, and if he sees me dragging my feet about the plans (because I'm always the planner, of course), it would be a major LB because I know he knows I know how much he wants this trip. If I do go ahead and make all the reservations and buy plane tickets, I'll be out at least a couple thousand dollars when I go into Plan B. I KNOW I'm not seeing the forest for the trees here! Someone please help me get some clarity about this. Should I just make the reservations and be willing to eat the $2,000 loss as one of the costs of trying to save my marriage? It's hard for me to accept because I know the real reason for Plan B isn't trying to make the WS come back.

Last night when I asked him what he thought about the MB home study course (+SAA) that I'd given him on Monday to look at, he said (as I expected) that he hadn't had time to look at it this week. He also said he didn't remember me saying I wanted to discuss it before he left on his trip (he left this morning). When I then suggested that instead of going out to dinner, we go over to his apartment and look at it together, he really didn't want to do that! He had all these excuses about how "messy" and "trashed" his apartment was (which has me wondering what is in his apartment that he doesn't want me to see). When I said "This is important" he totally stonewalled and said if I was angry (I don't think I was acting angry, but I'm sure my face showed disappointment and other negative emotions), he said "why don't you just do whatever you want to do tonight and I'll do something else" and tried to get out of the car. (We hadn't pulled out of the driveway yet.) I got him calmed down and told him not to run away again like he always does when things get uncomfortable for him. We agreed that we will discuss the MB stuff next Saturday (the 12th). I wanted to do it on Friday, but he pushed for Saturday. I have no idea why, since we're going to be together Friday evening anyway, unless it's because he's running a race on Saturday morning and anticipates a very long, emotional discussion or fight or something and doesn't want that before his race (because his race would be more important to him than this, of course). We ended up going for drinks and dinner as planned and had a very nice time. (I'm getting so good at burying my needs that I'm starting to worry about myself.)

So next weekend could be a strategic time to start Plan B. But it's also RIGHT before my surgery. Part of me thinks that if I've held out that long, I might as well tough it out another few days and get through the surgery. But I'm wondering if I'm going to lose my mind before then. He's out of town until late Tuesday, so I have a little bit of a break until at least Wednesday.

I need some clarity. A good smack upside the head. Anyone?

Get through the surgery and then go into plan b. Forget the trip. Tell him the trip is off. That would be inappropriate to give him a trip while he in an affair.

I really do want to try to stick it out until after my surgery. Today is just a really bad day and I can't seem to stop crying. I've felt that way all day and just now I saw, based on our wireless bill, that I think he spent 20 minutes during his layover talking to her (his own number is showing up as the other number, which I think is a restricted call.) He didn't even bother to simply message me before takeoff and after landing like he always does.

What's my reason for the trip being off? There's no reason that makes sense as we've already moved heaven and earth to make arrangements and no reason why we can't go. I can't express how much of a LB this will be. He's wanted this trip for 10 years and we are finally taking it. Long story.

I agree with you about the trip. I will just not make any more arrangements and not bring it up myself. I just wonder what I could say if he brings it up.

What to do about the trip....that is a toughie. A quandry for sure.

Since you are in the final lap of Plan A, don't talk about relationship stuff. Don't let his tantrums get to you. You are doing well. There is nothing wrong with you, even though this is so unlike you to handle things this way. You are an adult woman who is capable of following a plan versus exploding from emotions though they are there inside you. It is called strategy and maturity. You may feel like you are loosing your mind before then but your Taker is chomping at the bit for action. Who can blame it?!

Do not expect him to start meeting any of your needs before plan B. If he does....oooh la la....that would be a plus for sure. A heaven sent plus. Just figure he won't and continue planting seeds of love.

The trip in April? Which of you suggested it? How long ago was it planned?

If you don't want to tell him the trip's off because of skankolicious, just say "Oh, yeah, I'll take a look at that" and then drop it.

Just tell him the trip is off because he won't end his affair. That is not a lovebuster. It will just delay Plan B and give him a false sense of entitlement to reward his cruelty with a trip. Don't give it a second thought.

DITTO


I hope you can get into Plan B as soon as you are done recovering from your surgery. When you try to convince yourself that you can handle it a little longer, remember what it felt like on those days when you wanted to throw in the towel.

As reading said, while I was in the last few days and hours of my Plan A, my taker was SCREAMING at me. I calmed her down by reminding her that I would be in Plan B soon enough. Then, there were other moments that I was trying to convince myself that I could hold out for a while longer. Then some great vets on here got me through it and I have been in Plan B for more than 14 months now and I don't regret it one bit.

Here's where I think I have made a huge error. Even though I know they've been in sporadic contact for the last 6 weeks, I haven't brought it up at all. WH has to be in total denial about the fact that I know, because whenever they are in contact it's on the wireless account and I pay that bill (he doesn't even have the password). But I haven't mentioned it. The last time I confronted him about anything to do with her, it was that she had texted him once in the middle of the night and he texted her back once an hour later and I saw it on the bill. He claimed she texted asking "Can I call?" and he told her "I don't think that's a good idea." This was about two weeks into our "reconciliation." We had a huge fight because he said he knew I would never trust him again, and he didn't know if he should be trusted, didn't know if he could trust himself, didn't think I would ever forgive him, didn't know if he deserved forgiveness, thought I'd be better off without him in the long run... blah, blah, blah... self-flagellating woe-is-me crap. And then he avoided me and sort of stayed away and wouldn't let me meet any of his needs or do anything nice for him for about two weeks.

Should I have been confronting him all along? And should I be confronting him now? If I do confront him, he's going to Plan B himself and stay away. I think I mentioned, he is a HUGE HUGE HUGE conflict avoider and runs away whenever anything makes him the least bit uncomfortable.

**EDIT**

moderators note: please familiarize yourself with MB material before posting. Email me with any questions.

For sure, if you don't confront him he will rightly conclude you don't care and are very complacent.

Now this might seem like a stupid question, but how do I confront him after not mentioning it for so long? Should I just say "I know you're still in contact with OW and that is unacceptable/disrespectful/destructive/damaging."? And should I do it over the phone while he's gone or wait until Wednesday when I will see him face to face?

I would do it right now. Tell him you know he is still in touch with the OW and tell him how very hurt you are. Ask him to stop all contact. If he asks how you know, tell him you won't divulge your sources.

I guess I thought that everyone understanding that I love him was a given since I'm here trying to save my marriage, but I can elaborate if you want. If you want the background story that led up to all of this, I'll write it out. And the details of what I've done to try to Plan A, too. It's going to be very long, but I like to talk, so just let me know.

As for Plan A while he's not living with me, I know that's not real Plan A but I don't know that I really have a choice in that. He spends a lot of time hiding from me and our marriage in that apartment, so I don't know that he would be willing to move back in. I've mentioned he's a conflict avoider. And passive-aggressive to boot. Plus, if I asked him to move back in and he did, and then in two weeks I started Plan B and told him to move out, I know he'd tell me I was crazy since I would have just asked him to move back in and that he would refuse to leave. (But I really don't think he would move back in in the first because then he wouldn't have any place to hide from the difficult and uncomfortable reality that he likes to avoid.) Any suggestions here are welcome. How should I be doing a "real" Plan A?

As for the worry about financial fallout from a divorce, I will actually be in fine shape if we end up getting divorced. You're right, the financial issues would be all sorted out. Believe me, when he first moved out I worked through all the financial details and realized I'd be a-okay if we divorced. It's this separation that's killing us financially. We can afford to maintain our one household just fine when we are together, but this household is way too large and expensive to maintain along with another one. Another issue right now is that my assets are locked up, for example in this house that I'm in now. Since we are merely separated, everything is just a giant spiderweb. If we divorce, it will take a long time but it will eventually all be sorted out. First thing for me would be to move out of this place and get a smaller, more conveniently located place that is less expensive both mortgage-wise and maintenance-wise. However, that's what I mean by a long time because this house & property are unique and in this market are going to be hard to sell.

I don't really understand your question at the end as to "if I don't want to recover my marriage?" What gave you that impression? I'm not being snarky, I really want to know why you think that? Am I coming off as too practical and strategic? Because that's what I'm here for help with. Believe me, the loving him part I have covered.

Hyacinth, of course you did a real Plan A. You don't need to live together to conduct Plan A. Plan A is only telling him you would be willing to meet his needs in the future if he ends his affair. You did that. Another part of Plan A is exposure and doing everything in your power to bust up his affair.

Plan A for women is only supposed to last 3 to 4 weeks.

You shouldn't argue about the affair but rather state calmly and assertively that you know he's still contacting OW and needs to stop.

Don't let him know your sources.

Let him know calmly and assertively (without debate) that you'd like to recover your marriage but the only way that process can begin is for him to commit to no contact for life with OW.

Thank you. The main reason why I haven't confronted him again was a) I know he's not going to end contact with her until he decides to himself and b) I was worried that discussion would be a real LB and a pointless one at that.

But I do like the idea of just saying I know he's in contact, it really hurts me and he needs to stop. And leaving it at that. No "discussion," no argument, just the statement.

Next weekend when we talk about what he thinks of the MB home study course, I was going to tell him I think we need these 4 things for recovery:

1. He must end any and all contact and connection with the OW permanently and forever. (I�m using so many redundant adjectives to make my point clear.)

2. He must be open, honest and transparent with me in all things. I am offering him the same from me.

3. He needs to move back into the house.

4. We need to either enter counseling (this would be my first choice) or work through the MB home study course (and read SAA). Preferably both!

And really say no more on the subject right then. Not discuss it or ask what he thinks about those four things. I also thought about writing them up like that as a list and giving it to him to refer back to. Think of it as kind of a Plan-B foreshadowing, which he won't realize it was until we hit Plan B.

What do you think? Is this too much discussion about our relationship and the affair while still in Plan A?

Hyacinth, I would focus on #1 for now and leave the rest for next weekend. I would talk to him OFTEN about the affair and demand he end his affair. Bring it up often or he is going to get the impression that you don't care very much and/or are complacent.

Plan A is not the avoidance of any conflict, it is only a pledge to meet his needs in the future if he ends his affair.

Yes, that would be helpful.


So, wouldn't it follow that if you want to conduct a Plan A that you would ask your husband to return? You wouldn't know what he would say until you ask him, right?

(

Quote

But I really don't think he would move back in in the first because then he wouldn't have any place to hide from the difficult and uncomfortable reality that he likes to avoid.)

That's what is known as a DJ. I've known men that were conflict avoiders, I've also known men married to women who have to have everything their way and won't hear any different.

I guess the biggest question I have is that you asked/ordered your husband to leave (at least that's the way I read it) and haven't asked him to come back, so I don't know how you can do a Plan A when you don't want your husband to come home. That is why I asked if you did a Plan A and what did it consist of? Guess I was remiss in stating my opinion but your thread is confusing to me. Perhaps giving more detail as you suggested would help me to understand better.

Thank you, that makes sense. I'm such a planner and a doer, it's hard for me to not be moving forward all the time and I feel so much like we're standing still.

One more question. I'm ready to tell him I know they're still communicating, but when he travels these days we don't always talk on the phone, especially when there's a time difference (which there is this time) and because things are still strained between us. We usually just message each other. Should I make a point of getting him on the phone to say this to him? An email seems kind of wimpy, but it's how I would normally communicate with him if I had more to say than I wanted to text. I'm worried that if I make a point of making a phone call he'll feel like I just called for that reason and to attack him. Or is that kind of the point?

I'm sorry, I've just been trying so hard not to LB and be the b*tch I'm known for being. I don't really know how to be a kinder, gentler me without slipping into being too passive.

Hyacinth, yes you should make that the point of the phone call. Casually mentioning it after talking about the weather makes it sound like this is not a big deal to you. You don't want to give him the impression that you are complacent or don't care. And you don't attack him when you do it.

Americajin, she has been in Plan A for several weeks now. Which means she is overdue for Plan B. The time for Plan B is as soon as she can go dark. Her goal is to save her marriage, so that has to be the next step.

Excellent.

Be warned that he will likely attempt to draw you into debate. Do not let him.

Stay calm, cool and collected. Practice.


THIS is the magic bullet:


There's no chance whatsoever of a future together if OW is in the picture in any way, which is why removing her from the picture is the primary objective.

Once he commits to step one, you can then move on to other steps like counseling, hopefully with MB since it's so effective.

This is where it would be helpful if everyone knew WH in person, because he is absolutely NOT going to try to draw me into a debate. It would shock me if he did. My best guess is that I will get nothing but silence when I say that. He's THAT much of a conflict-avoider. I might get some sort of noncommittal response, a generic "okay" meaning "I heard you" rather than one in agreement. But that's fine, because the point of this is just to let him know what's on my mind, rather than to have a big discussion. If he does surprise me by trying to draw me into a discussion, I will just say I don't want to discuss it now, I just wanted him to know that.

But, you will also want to ask him to end all contact with her. Will he commit to that? <---ask him that. With a conflict avoider, it is good to sit down and write out open ended questions to get them talking.

"I see that you are still in contact with the OW." [this is a statement, not a question because you don't want to ever ask if there contact, you tell]

"What is keeping you from ending contact with her?" [open ended question]

"What are your plans for the future with her?" [OE question]

And then close by telling him that continued contact with her will make it impossible to ever save your marriage and ask him to end all contact with life with her.

Thank you. That's better than what I had planned to say. I agree that open-ended questions are the way to go.

Yesterday there were 19 minute and 25 minute back-to-back "unavailable" incoming phone calls while he was on his layover. This man doesn't talk on the phone for 19 minutes with his own mother or best friend! (Much less 44 minutes total.) And he never had a single unavailable call before all this started. Seriously, do the two of them think I'm that stupid or is he just in denial because I haven't confronted him recently? Because that's over.

This is common. If he's a CAer (conflict avoider) like my H, he may just not know how to get off the phone with her if she is a blabber mouth. That's what my H told me about his AP, she talked too much and even though it annoyed the heck out of him, he didn't know how to end the calls. He also liked the ego stroking and OW are good at that.

Ok, so you are going to confront him when?

Re: the trip ~ that is completely off the table. Never shield a WS from the consequences of their actions, and canceling a trip due to an AFFAIR they are having would certainly be a consequence.

Plan A until after your surgery if you must and then go straight to Plan B.

I'm planning to confront him tonight.

As for him being a CAer and not knowing how to get her off the phone? How about: don't answer in the first place?! 99.9% of phone contact is initiated by her, according to the wireless bill (I obviously don't know what goes on via email or otherwise).

Yes, absolutely.

If he commits to NC and recovery with you, this will be one of the boundaries/precautions he establishes.

It may be helpful to role play various hypothetical situations (Steve Harley recommended we do this) to be prepared to do the right thing.

One of the conditions for keeping NC in place is that he needs to change his cell phone number (no excuses, ok? We've heard them all and there is no reason good enough, ever) as well as email address, delete a FB account, etc.

Anyone who wants NC badly enough will do this.

Be firm but do not love bust (angry outbursts, disrespectful judgement, selfish demands) during interaction with him.
Telling him contact with her must end for the marriage to survive is not a selfish demand. Its a fact.

I know, but I'm having such a hard time finding a happy medium between not love busting and not confronting him about anything at all. Since he's such a CAer, these days he panics anytime we have an uncomfortable discussion about anything. Without exaggeration, somewhere between one and ten minutes into any discussion about her or us, he will say "I have to go" and try to walk out. I can see a physical stress reaction come over him, he gets flooded and overwhelmed, shuts down and runs away. So I've basically been avoiding discussing anything, because it doesn't get me anywhere anyway.

But I do know he needs confronted about his contact with her, because until that ends, he's going to continue to feel guilty and overwhelmed with negative emotions and we aren't going to get anywhere.

You are reading WAAAAAY too much into what he is/isn't doing. He's WAYWARD, he is out of his mind. Please stop doing this, it's only making you drag your feet on what you need to do.

You don't need to explain to us how he's acting...we KNOW how he's acting, all waywards act the exact.same.way. Please stop wasting your time thinking about and posting about this.

Just focus on what you need to do: Prep for Plan B.

<Refresh my memory, have you exposed the living daylights out of this affair? All I need is a yes or no. >

THANK YOU to everyone who encouraged me to confront him about his continued contact with OW (and told me what to say). It was so eye-opening. He is so very in the fog and I had been in denial as to how deep.

I called him (Monday night when OMG the boards first went down!) while he was still on his business trip. I had been watching the wireless bill and they�d been talking and texting (since last Wednesday). While on his trip he called her at her office number (1,000 miles from where he was), so I do know she wasn�t on the trip with him. Not that it matters.

Here�s how the conversation went (I took notes!):

Me: I know you�re still in communication with her and it really hurts me.

WH: I know this won�t make you feel any better, but it�s not very often and it�s not in the same way.

Me: What is keeping you from breaking it off with her?

WH: Someone to talk to.

Me: Not to sound pitiful, this is a practical question, but you can�t talk to me?

WH: No.

Me: What do you talk with her about that you can�t talk about with me.

WH: I don�t know� my thoughts and feelings about stuff. I really don�t have anyone else to talk to.

Me: What are your plans for the future with her?

WH: I don�t really have any plans.

Me: Continued contact with her of any kind makes it impossible for us to recover from this and repair our relationship and you have to know that.

WH: I know that.

Me: Communicating with her is inappropriate.

WH: I know it�s inappropriate.

Me: What do you plan on doing about it?

WH: I�ll figure it out and let you know.

Me: You really have to think about it?

WH: You act like it�s a choice between her and you and it�s not. It�s a choice between you or not you and she has nothing to do with it. I don�t plan on a future with her.

Me: You are never going to be able to make a clear decision about our relationship as long as you are emotionally connected to her. You can�t be bonded to two people.

There was a little more, not much, but I stopped taking notes and then he angrily rushed me off the phone claiming he was meeting the other members of the business trip for dinner and they were waiting in the lobby.

Wow. He�s living in a fantasy world, on the banks of Denial River. This conversation was so eye-opening for me.

I�ve barely seen him this week even after he got back. He�s been avoiding me pretty much, although he has been helping with the kids. On Wednesday night we had a long phone conversation where I did get him to open up a little. He said a bunch of midlife crisis stuff about hating the person he is and that having a negative association with everything in his life that was part of the 42 year process of him becoming a person he doesn�t like: his job, our relationship, his family, his friends. This was an 82 minute conversation and I wish I would have taken some notes. Toward the end I again told him that his communication with her was a deal breaker for me, etc. I also told him that I think he�s trying to use her as a therapist, but she can�t be because she�s biased and a counselor doesn�t just make you feel good and tell you what you want to hear. That pissed him off.

Communication between them has continued almost non-stop since I confronted him (there was one day with no contact). But it�s even stepped up since then, with long phone conversations, or else lots of short ones back and forth all day. Last night they talked for almost 90 minutes (broken up into 12 back and forth calls. I assume their cell phones kept getting disconnected?). So much for �not very often.�

I�m still trying to Plan A and not love bust until after my surgery when I can move into Plan B. Also, I�m still getting all my Plan B stuff in order. Here�s my big question right now: We�re supposed to have date night tomorrow night, Saturday. Is canceling on him a huge love buster? He always seems to be testing me these days and then when I do anything he interprets as me rejecting him, he gets very angry and defensive so I know he�s hurt by it and that it�s love-busting. But, seriously, how much crap does he expect me to eat? Is he intentionally trying to drive me away?

Also I NEED his cooperation for at least another 10 days-two weeks due to my surgery this coming Thursday. So I�m trying to hold out until my surgery on Thursday. After that, I figure at least during the first few days of recovery, I won�t care much because of the pain killers (LOL). And once I�m able to care for my kids either alone or with minimum help from friends, I�m going to PBL him and try to find some peace for myself.

But date night. Ugh. I don�t even want to look at him, much less try to have a pleasant evening. When he�s been in recent contact with her, acts so angry and defensive toward everything I do. They�ve been in constant contact all week, so I know he�s going to be silent and crabby. But I also know if I try to cancel, he�ll be a jerk about it. None of this makes any sense.

Should I just say I�m canceling because of his contact with her? I�m so worried he�ll get really hurt and angry and decide to not be there for me after the surgery. I HATE being dependent on him, but I spent days this week trying to find another way, other support and there just isn�t enough available for all the help I�ll need for the kids.

As for exposure: Living daylights? I�m really not sure, so then I guess not?

I have exposed to his family, my family and our close friends back in December. Everyone reacted with complete and utter shock, saying they thought we had a good marriage and that we were the last people they expected this to happen to.

His brother-in-law/best friend is the only one who confronted him from his family (they are all very, very, very passive conflict-avoiders. His dad was the strong, outspoken one they all learned to be passive to placate, but he died 10 years ago). WH told BIL that our marriage has been dead for a long time (even though I pointed out to his family a hundred examples of how it wasn�t, like how until he left for the business trip where he started his A, we both were making long-term plans about every aspect of our lives, so that hardly seems like something he had given up on like he claims). He said and that the girl was �unimportant,� a mistake he regretted instead of just telling me he wanted out� blah, blah, blah. I got all this from BIL who believed it all. And my guess is BIL repeated it to the rest of his family who apparently believe it, too, because they�ve all basically left WH alone to live his life. I think they believe OW is out of the picture. I do know his family expressed disgust to him about the OW (family history regarding affairs is ugly).

My family has had no contact with him at all since I exposed, but I definitely thought we were headed for divorce and told them that, and they still believe that we are in that process, so as practical as my family is I think they�ve just decided it�s the past. They�ve been focusing on supporting me and helping me move on.

However, no one in either of our families knows that we have been attempting reconciliation since the first of the year. Like I said, they�re all 100+ miles away. We have basically been hiding it from them. He hasn�t visited his family in the past three months (which you think would be a red flag to them because when I first kicked him out, he went to his sister�s house every single weekend). I�ve been hiding our �attempted reconciliation� from my family because I guess I�m sort of embarrassed by this pitifully false-R. Not completely sure why he has been hiding it, although I guess I could speculate (I think he painted such an evil picture of me as a wife that he thinks they�d question what he was doing trying to reconcile). Although you all might have a better answer for that.

Our friends haven�t said anything to him, but they are the people who have seen us trying to reconcile so I think they�ve just been giving us privacy and space. This week I started asking them to confront him. However, part of his mid-life crisis crap is that he is rejecting everything in his life: his family, friends and of course our marriage (also said he hates his work, but he can�t do anything about that for at least three more years). He has avoided all of our friends except one (who I have been in a lot of communication with the past couple of weeks and who is waiting for a chance to confront him, but hasn�t seen him recently). Another close friend asked this week if I thought her husband and his other male friends should confront him and I told her yes, but again, they haven�t had the chance. He avoids everyone and hides in his apartment when he�s not working (or he�s over here).

I am drafting a letter to her superiors (as she was on a work-paid trip when this started) although I have some legal concerns. As I mentioned, she works for a major government agency, so there are issues there. I�m also concerned about libel/slander.

I haven�t exposed to his work yet. It�s actually a side job, not his main job, that he travels for and that he was on the trip for when this started. This is part-time work for an outside agency, not his �real� job, and I�m embarrassed to admit I don�t have a lot of contact info for it. It�s out of state and everyone who works for them are basically considered independent contractors. But I�m looking for info.

Suggestions?

Stop for the time being checking up on him and his contact with her. Assume it is happening but don't look in order to keep your head and not get more aggitated.
Go to the 'date' with him and be an actress who is as appealing as possible, knowing you are still part of the competition, for now (til you go to B). Bat eyes, show goods (IYKWIM). Know it will be blocked by him but his subconscious will soak it up and take it in. Know it is simply laying groundwork in your favor and nothing more. No expectations.
Know he is a cad.
But, guess the heck what? He is still playing you because you are still in the ring. LOL (you gotta at that). His massive calls to her are probably not all lovey dovey. She may be demanding and lovebusting him during them. Again LOL.
Just keep plan Aing. You did tell him the score about continued contact with her creating a life minus you. Now, plan A and don't keep mentioning it but prepare to go to plan B and when you do......close the door to the drama and heal.


edited to say...I was typing my reply when you added your last post on exposure questions...I'll let others address that...not my best MB skill. I did it but your nuances are diff from mine.

Thank you. I've been toughing it out (my original Plan A ending date was supposed to be end of Feb), so I guess I can continue a few days longer.

But here's the thing... if I make a pass at him at the end of tomorrow night, he WOULD take me up on it. One time recently he took a 10 minute call from her while I was driving the babysitter home (I didn't find out until days later) and then when I came back to my house where he was waiting with the kids asleep (so I could drive the babysitter home), he... ended up spending the night, IYKWIM.

He IS a cad. LOL

Then you are super in the ring still!
Anyway, show the goods even if you choose not to go the whole way since SF is obviously one of his five emotional needs. Allure even if you plan to leave him with a peck on the cheek and nothing more for the night.

Not so much in the ring. I already knew this was going to be his tactic, but when we got back to my house he said he was going to take the babysitter home and then go back to his apartment because he was "still tired from his race." (Ran a 10 mile race yesterday morning). I KNOW you said to stop checking the phone bill, but I was too curious and checked this morning. He called her the second he got into his apartment and they spent two and a half hours on the phone and then another half hour texting. It's almost funny.

However, I looked smokin' hot last night. And earlier in the night I suggested that after we got home we have some "adult hot tub time" (meaning alone without the kids) because I won't be able to use the hot tub for probably 6 weeks after my surgery, but I knew he would pass on it when I suggested it. So at the end of the night, when he said he was going home, I couldn't help but sweetly say "I can't believe you're passing up your last chance for adult hot tub time..." His foggy-foggy response? "It's not the last chance, just for a few weeks." He is SO in denial.

After the two conversations I had with him this week about her and him subsequently spending hours on the phone with her each night this week, he still thinks I'm going to let things go on this way? I can't believe that he hasn't figured out that at this point I'm using him for my surgery. And it can't come soon enough.

The next four days are going to be very hard not to love bust when I don't even want to look at him or be around him.

Just assume he is phone calling and texting her and practice NOT looking (for when you go to plan B....you ought not to look to create your own peace of mind)
Assume, asssume, assume BUT don't even let it sway you and your plans.'

Awesome on the invite to the hot tub. He will recall it once you go dark on him.

Since the phone calls and texts are so very dear to them.....why don't you up your own calls and texts to him while still in plan A? If you don't do them much....start doing them. Sweet ones. Romantic ones. Practical ones. Lots of them.
If he asks why? Say.... I love you so very much and want to hear your voice/connect with you more. (something like that).
Don't say ....I know you are doing it with her and I am mad or anything like that. Don't let him know you have seen his phone records. That would be detrimental to your cause.

He is foggy. You are pissed (taker). You just utilize the man til you can go to plan B after you recover from your surgery and plant seeds of love to harvest in the future should the affair ever crash and burn (eventually it will.....sooner or later....you can't control that).

Enjoy your moments with your H while he is still around and then prepare to release him and to refocus on YOU.

I would also find her family and expose to them too. There is no need to worry about "libel/slander" except to HOPE that she would be stupid enough to bring a suit. The truth is a defense to libel and slander, so she would be hanging herself. But you can't allow yourself to be paralyzed by such fears.

Do you have her family information?


Yes, I would expose to them too. Additionally, I would RE-EXPOSE to all of his family and all your friends. Tell them your H won't end his affair with OW and ask them to use their influence to persuade him to end his affair. Be sure and give the OW's name so they know the name of the homewrecker so she won't be welcome in his family. When you get the exposures done, contact the OW and tell her that there is no future in her affair because she will be eternally hated by your children and by the in-laws. Tell her you will never allow her around your children because she is an unfit adult.

Hyacinth, have you set a date for Plan B and a date for exposure? I would do your exposures all on the same date for maximum effect.

I haven't set a firm date because I'm waiting to see how I heal after my surgery. Basically, as SOON as I feel I can take care of my kids without him, I'm going into Plan B. Originally, I had planned to start Plan B at the end of February, but this surgery messed up that plan.

I need help with exposure. A couple of posts back I described what I did to expose back in December, but like I said, he convinced his family she wasn't the problem, just a symptom. I'm not sure how to proceed now, what exactly to do to convince them otherwise. All I really have are wireless phone records at this point. Do I print them out for everyone or just describe them or what?

As for her family, I have only been able to find one name, who I may be her father, but no address or phone number for him yet. She's 2,000 miles away, so it's been hard to dig up dirt on her. I did a background check, but it yielded very little for all it cost.

Here is what you say when you re-expose to both of your families:

Dear Family,

I am heartbroken and trying to save my M. WH and I have been trying to reconcile since the beginning of January. He has been coming to me saying he wants to reconcile and I have agreed ~ however, behind my back he is still in contact with the OW, spending hours on the phone with her, all the while telling me he wants to reconcile. The hurt I feel from this is unbearable at times.

I am asking for your help ~ our children deserve an intact family and I am willing to forgive him but he MUST end all contact with (POSOW's name). Please use your influence to encourage him to end his affair and give our children the family they deserve.

Until he does this I cannot have any contact with him ~ it's causing me undue stress and emotional trauma. Please pray for us while we separate and encourage him to end his affair so that we can repair our marriage.

Thank you for any help you are willing to give,

Hyacinth

Send this the day you go into Plan B. Until then, Plan A the best you can. I know it's hard and painful but you are almost there!

Have you written your PBL and do you have an IM? Is your addendum written out?

When is your surgery?

My surgery is this Thursday. Even though I have a friend who I already arranged to take me, stay and then bring me home (long drive), the timing worked out that WH has the option to come along and stay for the whole thing and he has chosen to do just that, even though I was very casual about that option so he could opt out. (A friend offered to him to pick the kids up from daycare and stay with them because we won't get home until later, so he can come.) His wanting to come doesn�t actually make much sense to me, because he's in so deep with OW these days.

I have edited my PBL pretty much as suggested here because after my discussion with WH last week where I had my epiphany about just how foggy he is, I totally understand why shortening it was suggested. I'll post the new version and I have some more questions about giving the letter.

Addendum � I�m working on it. I�ll post my notes soon to ask for suggestions/improvements.

Intermediaries are lined up. I need to give them instructions, though. One issue is that my intermediaries can�t help with exchange of the kids (for visitation) because they live too far away, however, there are a couple of different friends who love closer to me who I think will help. I still need to ask them, though.

Good girl. Stay the course, Hyacinth and we will help you through this. You are doing good getting all your ducks in a row.

Here's my Plan B letter (with MB edits ) :

Dear WH ~

I�m working hard to be a person I can be happy and proud of being. I want you to know that, even though I also sometimes have doubts and I�m also struggling with all of this, I love you. You are the smartest, funniest, sexiest man I know. If we really try, we can make this work. I believe in you, in me, and in us. I�m willing to put the past behind us and do whatever it takes to make this the marriage we�ve both always wanted. I have confidence that you have the capacity to do the same.

The pain that I suffer on a daily basis is becoming almost too much to bear. We�ve taken no measurable steps toward recovery or healing; in fact, I feel like we�re standing still. I need to be treated with love and respect. When you are ready to offer your openness and honesty to me and willingness to move forward together, I�m ready to talk about what we both think this will take. This means that I need you to be ready to commit to an active plan of recovery for our marriage. This also means that you have to be ready to end any and all communication and connection with her permanently. As long as you are keeping a place for her in your life, there is no room for me. When you end your affair and commit to the recovery of our marriage, please let me know. Until then, I will have no contact with you.

Until we are actively working on a plan of recovery and have determined a way to measure our progress, we need to keep our distance from each other. I hope that you understand that I am not doing this to hurt you or punish you, but to protect myself and preserve my feelings for you.

It�s not too late. We still have a chance to be happy together. I want to grow old with you. I loved you more I think you ever knew while we were together and I continue to do so as I write this. When you find yourself ready to truly and fully commit to me and our family, to work on a plan for our recovery, and to be open, honest and loving with me, I am ready and willing to discuss our future.

Love,
Me

What do you think?

Here's one more thing that doesn't quite make sense to me. The past two nights he has started chats with me right after the kids bedtime (we use the same program for both our phones and computers) and we've chatted until LATE in the night. This is very unusual for us. We chat, but sporadically and usually it's somewhat brief.

Sunday night he sent the first message at 7:22 p.m. We chatted until 1 a.m. when I finally had to go to bed (my bedtime is usually 9 or 10). 390 lines in that chat.

Then yesterday he messaged me at work and we chatted and emailed off and on all day. (178 lines plus emails)

And then again last night, he messaged me at 9:00 p.m. and we chatted until 2 a.m. (510 lines) Again, I was the one who had to say goodnight to go to bed. Thank goodness I have a short week because of my surgery because I don't function very well on so little sleep.

Today we emailed and chatted off and on all day, but I had a busy day and couldn't sit in front of my computer.

I have no illusions that he's given her up. However, I have no idea how much contact they're having because I haven't checked the wireless account in two days. (Very proud of myself for that!) So what is this about? Is this him having his cake and eating it too? Is he just enjoying getting attention from two women? Because he did not come to dinner last night or tonight, even though he told me he would come one of these two nights when I was meal planning/grocery shopping on Sunday. (He backed out tonight claiming working late as an excuse. Too cliche!) Is it that communication with me that's not face to face is more comfortable for him?

Or do I just need to stop analyzing this nutjob? Nothing he does ever makes sense to me anymore and I hate not being able to figure things out.

Stop analyzing him. Just know that he is following the wayward play book.

That's what I thought. It just goes against my grain - I am always looking for the answers to everything.

Yep to all of those and, to me, it's a good thing that he's still needing something from you.

With all of the chat/attention that he's throwing at you, it sounds as though your Plan B will be at an opportune moment. Take care of yourself, hope the surgery goes well for you.

Well, my surgery went well and I finally feel like I'm getting back to normal. Today is my first day back to work.

WH has been staying at the house for the past week, every since surgery day, helping take care of the kids and do household stuff I couldn't do. As a result, my house is trashed because he's terrible at it. He and I have been getting along very well, but I'm not deceived by it. I have evidence that things are still business as usual with him and OW, although I think he believes that they're finally sneaky enough that I don't know it.

Anyway, I'm just sick and tired of it all. As long as I still feel physically up to it (assuming starting work again doesn't set me back), this weekend I am going to start Plan B but I still have some questions and things I need help with.

My first question is: How do I go about actually initiating Plan B? Do I have a talk with him about staying away and then give him the letter, or do I just hand him the letter and tell him to get out? I know that might seem like a silly question, but neither option really seems right to me.

I'll post more later some questions I still have about logistics. This whole thing just has me sick, since it's not my first choice of how I wish things would go (obviously), but it's the only option I have left.

Thanks everyone!

You could tell him "I love you very much. Your affair is causing me too much emotional pain. You need to move out. Today" and let him find his own solution to where he goes.
If he says he isn't going. Repeat the above statement (as often as needed).
If he still states he isn't going.....tell him 'I neeeeeed you to leave."

With firmness, with not angry outbursts. With eye contact. With resoluteness.

If he still doesn't go.......come back here for more advice on that. (Mine left with the above scenario)

I would, personally, have him leave and wait a week or so to give him the plan B letter. He will try to push boundaries once he does leave and it could be easier to have a leeway of WH being gone and then receiving the actual plan B letter. Then,be prepared for going truly dark to him.

BS have done both:
give right at waywards departure
and a bit after.

The thing is, he has already moved out, he has an apartment he's been living in since I first kicked him out in December. He's only been staying with me the past week to help me because of my surgery. So if I tell him to leave, he will leave and just go back to his apartment. But this time I need to make sure that he knows I mean STAY AWAY and no contact, because he's been coming and going at my house as he pleases, visiting the kids, doing his laundry at the house, eating dinner with us, etc, since we started being friendly again in January.

I do like the idea of telling him to stay away and then a few days later driving the point home with the letter. That way it might really sink in that I mean it.

I forgot! (sorry).

I think that you could make the statement
"Thank you for being here for me as I recover from my surgery. I feel stronger now. I love you very much. Your affair is causing me too much emotional pain. As long as you continue it....I am suffering. I need you to leave. I love you, but I need you to leave."

then send him the plan B letter a few days later.

Then, do not respond to him other than factually about important child or finance issues through the IM who you designate in the letter.

This is what I did. I would NOT tell him to stay away and then a few days later give him the PBL. That makes no sense. You are saying "I want NC with you" and then you are having C with him.

PLEASE...just give him the dang PBL. This has been going on for waaaaaay too long. You are dragging your feet unnecessarily.

Just give him the letter already and go to a DARK Plan B. DO NOT BREAK PLAN B ONCE YOU ARE IN IT. This is a grave mistake that many people make.

I too gave my WH the Plan B letter as he was leaving.

If you had not been doing this for so long already, there might be some reason to wait, but in your case, I would just do it all at once. It's like pulling off a bandaid.

I realized something early on around here. Most of MB seems counter-intuitive at first. If I read someone's post, in the beginning, and I thought, "Yea, that's what I should do," it usually meant that it was what I was already doing, which was getting me NO WHERE. So, I really started to pay attention to the posts that had me questioning myself a bit more. I have only regretted a few things about my plan B, and that was mostly that I didn't stick to it as well as I should have.

You're all set up otherwise though, right?

How are you preparing yourself emotionally? Do you have IRL support? Weekends tend to be slow around here, so you will need someone IRL(even over the phone) to support you for a bit. Don't be discouraged. It's the right thing. Most things that are the right thing to do are the hardest to do.

Hang tough.

One of my problems is that I do NOT have everything for Plan B set up to go and stay completely dark. My surgery was ten days ago and I've been laid up since then (and going to work Friday apparently was pushing myself too hard and I paid for it this weekend, so I haven't gotten anything else accomplished). And for a couple of weeks before my surgery, I was trying to simultaneously prepare for surgery/being immobile afterward and also get ready for Plan B. Everyone here keeps saying be 100% ready for Plan B so you don't break it once you start and I am not 100% ready with the practical details. Emotionally, I feel about 90% ready, which I think is about as ready as I'll ever be.

Here's what I have for my Plan B logistics so far, with a few questions I need help working out:

No Contact/Intermediaries:
1. He is not to come to the house.
2. He is not to make phone calls, texts, chat messages or emails to me � all contact must go through intermediaries
3. I have friends (a married couple) who will be intermediaries
-- I need to give them directions on what to do/how to do it
-- He may call, email or text them (include their phone numbers and email addresses in the addendum)
4. He may only contact them regarding children and finances
5. His mail will be delivered to work by one of our other friends who is also his coworker (haven�t asked this friend yet, but I�m pretty sure he will do it). Also, he needs to start changing his mailing address on things because I will not do this indefinitely.
5. What about emergencies? (I realize this is a potential loophole)
6. Do I say he can feel free to contact me only re: recovery/reconciliation? Or not? (I know this is another potential loophole, but I�ve seen it done both ways here on MB.)

Kids:
1. I will take them to daycare in the morning. I haven�t been able to design a scenario that doesn�t involve him in my house. (I hope this one doesn�t end up killing me; it�s a TON of extra work. But, only 50 days of school left this year. )
2. Visitation (and drop off/pick up of kids):
-- On days he has visitation, he will pick them up at daycare
-- Drop off: possibly with local friends? I haven�t asked them yet and I'm not sure if they will do it. What should I do if I can't find anyone to help with this?
-- "Right of First Refusal" (I have to do this as it is from the co-parenting agreement we have from before the attempted reconciliation). So I'm giving him a list of dates and he needs to indicate if he wants the kids on these dates or do I need to arrange a babysitter? If I do not hear from him within (time frame?), I will assume that means he doesn�t want them and I will get a babysitter
2. Other than that, I'm not mentioning a visitation schedule; he can arrange his visitation with the kids � that�s his problem
3. What do I do if he shows up at our son's soccer practice or games? (I won�t give him the full schedule, but he needs to take our older son to Saturday soccer games on his weekends - if he has any weekends, that is.)

Miscellaneous:
1. PBL letter is ready.
2. The details above will be listed in the PBL Addendum
3. Change locks on house. My dad will help me with this if I need it.
4. Working on separating our finances. This is a huge mess and I don't know how long it will ultimately take, but I am starting.
5. Don�t push him to get his stuff � that�s his problem. (He has his clothes and essentials already and I am NOT packing the rest for him. He has too much stuff. Worse comes to worst and he can pack his stuff some weekend while my dad watches over him -- he'll hate that)


What details am I missing? What else needs to be arranged?

He can call you if it is an emergency. But be prepared to close this door if he abuses it, and most do.


Tell him to talk to your IM's and have your IM's contact me if you want. . I also have the name of someone I assume is her father, but I guess could be an uncle? I do have a phone number and address for this man. I am planning on sending a letter to her superiors at work, because like I said, this agency prides itself on flying "below the radar" and I know they are not going to appreciate it when I outline how she violated several policies (including possibly: conduct unbecoming, code of ethics violation, misuse of government resources, misuse of position and the fact that she will be named as a co-respondent in my with-fault divorce petition) and that all of this could possibly draw attention to their agency. But I have not one single name of a friend of hers and only that one relative. Any suggestions here would be helpful, I keep digging and digging and turning up nothing other than what I already have, which is little.

Your WS will make FALSE overtures initially. He will propose that YOU make all the changes by relaxing your standards, rather than HIM meeting your conditions. He is testing you to see if you are serious. The IM needs to weed out the false overtures. REconciliation can only be discussed if a) affair is ended, b) he commits to your marriage. Your IM needs to be a broken record. Tell her to expect false overtures and when those come, she shouldn't let them through.


Hopefully he won't come. If he does, you will want to leave.

You are planning on doing a nuclear exposure after you go dark, right?

Thanks to both of you. This is really helping me iron out the final details.

Regarding our son's soccer games, I doubt he won't come. There's always a chance that he will be too embarrassed to show his face, but one of the only things he has going for him these days is proving to everyone that he's a great dad. And actually, he always has been a great, very involved dad. So, if he shows, do I leave and have him bring our son home after practice/the game? (I can't yank our son from the midst of either of those without all our friends & family thinking I'm throwing a tantrum and trying to use our sons as weapons.) Do I just call my IM and have them call him and tell him where to drop off our son after the game?

Yes, I am planning on RE-exposing. I didn't do this very effectively before and I have some more details to work out about it and questions on that which I will post soon.

Hopefully you get stronger from the recovery of surgery steadily now. Don't give the letter until you feel you are set. That all your ducks are in a row and ready to go.
Also....I like to note your should have a plan B for your plan B. By that I mean that if your IM can't do it and freaks and pulls out, have an alternative in mind and ready to take over the position.
If he shows up at a soccer game you are not rude but remove yourself from the scene. If he comes to them....ask IM to request that he let them know in advance and that way you can not be there when he arrives and he can make sure the child gets home afterwards.
Fact is, you WILL have more work to do as a parent. You will need to do all tasks when the kids are with you, even ones the H used to do a bit of. The WH is not going to be your babysitter and parenting team mate anymore except when he has visitation. That takes a while to get the hang of.

I would just make plans to NOT see him at any soccer games, no matter how you do it. Even if you have to miss the games. That could ruin your Plan B.


I agree that you should re-expose, but more importantly, you should expose to the OW's facebooks friends and anyone else.

To reading's point, if your IM freaks out, have her email ME and I can help her. The IM job can be hard or it can be easy. If she is doing it right, it will be the easiest job in the world. It only gets hard when an IM pays heed to fogbabble and allows the WS to manipulate her. And most WS's will try to manipulate the IM!

From the weekend forum:

Question: if I decide to do a full Plan B, what do I do when we attend the same children's activities? Soccer games, band concerts, plays, etc. are all part of our lives. Do I ignore him completely? Is it okay to smile and wave? Do we sit together or what?

FYI, I have a mediator in mind, but I'm just not emotionally read to Plan B him yet. But I'm getting there.

Edited by stilllovemyman (01/27/08 03:18 PM)


Dr. Harley
Administrator


Reged: 11/16/00
Posts: 1916
Re: Plan B Advice Needed [Re: stilllovemyman]
#3389429 - 01/28/08 06:40 AM



stilllovemyman: Read my answer to "What Now!" by NZJ in the Questions about Infidelity section of the MBW Forum. It probably applies to your situation.

About 95% of affairs die a natural death within 2 years of discovery. And 70% of those 5% that survive to marriage end in divorce. Even the 30% of the 5% (1.5%) are not all happy marriages. So the odds of your husband finding happiness with his present lover is so unlikely that it's safe to say that his affair is the worst mistake of his life. But because you're married to him, it's the worst mistake of your life, too. And you didn't do anything to deserve it.

Your best plan of action right now is plan B. And you will have to make it air-tight to keep you sane. Otherwise, every casual contact, even at your children's events, is likely to take a terrible toll on your mental and physical health.

Some day, your husband may come out of the fog. And he may be ready to win you back to him again. But I would encourage you to avoid hoping for that outcome. In fact, try to avoid thinking of him at all. Start going down a new path that does not include him in any way. There's nothing more that you can do to encourage him to do the right thing. All you're left with now is to try to protect yourself from future suffering. And that means having absolutely nothing to do with your husband, possibly for the rest of your life.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

I am planning on skipping any of the games he will be taking our son to. My concern is that he will show up for practice (which I will be taking our son to) or the games I take our son to. That's why I want to be prepared as to what to do. These soccer games are huge and (unfortunately) social for the parents. Most of our friend's kids play in the same league and all of Saturday morning is spent at the field. Ugh.

I've explained this here before, but her FB is TOTALLY private. No friends are shown at all. She lives 2,000 miles away and I do not know anyone who knows her. I have done several background checks on her, but the problem is that she works for a government agency that is very... private. So she almost "doesn't exist." I have the name of her ex-husband, but haven't been able to locate a phone number or current address for him. I also have the name of someone I assume is her father, but I guess could be an uncle? I do have a phone number and address for this man. I am planning on sending a letter to her superiors at work, because like I said, this agency prides itself on flying "below the radar" and I know they are not going to appreciate it when I outline how she violated several policies (including possibly: conduct unbecoming, code of ethics violation, misuse of government resources, misuse of position and the fact that she will be named as a co-respondent in my with-fault divorce petition) and that all of this could possibly draw attention to their agency. But I have not one single name of a friend of hers and only that one relative. Any suggestions here would be helpful, I keep digging and digging and turning up nothing other than what I already have, which is little.

Thank you! I am writing up instructions for my IM and I am going to include your email address. My IM is a pretty tough, no-nonsense chick. She's known me and WH since college and she sees how foggy he is, so my hope is that she can handle it.

Sounds like a great plan. Anything else you can find in the meantime would be great!

Are these soccer games/practices held at the same time and on the same field all of the time? If not, I would not let WH know the schedule.

How old is the child involved? Do you have a friend, who you can trust, who would be at the game and would be willing to take the child home for you if you had to leave in a hurry? Another parent perhaps?

Good idea.

We were in the middle of baseball season when I was in Plan B and this is what was suggested to me by another pro-Plan B'er: to go with family/friends and have them kind of "surround" me so that my H would be unable/unwilling to get through them in order to talk to me. I made sure to sit on the opposite side of the field/bleachers from him and I refused to make eye contact with him or otherwise acknowledge that he was there.

I always left the game immediately when it was over and had family/friends bring our son home so that I could escape any sort of contact with him.

This is only a good option if you know for certain you won't use this as an excuse to get YOUR fix of your WH, however. I am a real "rules follower" so this wasn't hard for me. It became a game of "how tight can I keep this Plan B?".

Sorry I disappeared for a while, but I ended up having a complication and he had to come back over and help me again.

Yesterday I started Plan B. Here was my Plan B letter:

Dear WH ~

I�m working hard to be a person I can be happy and proud of being. I want you to know that, even though I also sometimes have doubts and I�m also struggling with all of this, I love you. You are the smartest, funniest, sexiest man I know. If we really try, we can make this work. I believe in you, in me, and in us. I�m willing to put the past behind us and do whatever it takes to make this the marriage we�ve both always wanted. I have confidence that you have the capacity to do the same.

The pain that I suffer on a daily basis is becoming too much to bear. We�ve taken no measurable steps toward recovery or healing; in fact, I feel like when we�re not standing still, we�re moving backwards. I need to be treated with love and respect. When you are ready to offer your openness and honesty to me and willingness to move forward together, I�m ready to talk about what we both think this will take. This means that I need you to be ready to commit to an active plan of recovery for our marriage. This also means that you have to be ready to end any and all communication and connection with her permanently. As long as you are keeping a place for her in your life, there is no room for me. When you end your affair and commit to the recovery of our marriage, please let me know. Until then, we need to keep our distance from each other.

Until we are actively working on a plan of recovery and have determined a way to measure our progress, I will have no contact with you. I hope that you understand that I am not doing this to hurt you or punish you, but to protect myself and preserve my feelings for you.

It�s not too late. We still have a chance to be happy together. I want to grow old with you. I loved you more I think you ever knew while we were together and I continue to love you as I write this. When you find yourself ready to truly and fully commit to me and our family, to work on a plan for our recovery, and to be open, honest and loving with me, I am ready and willing to discuss our future.

Love, Me

Ok...and you are prepared to stay in a DARK Plan B, right?

No excuses! Stay dark!

He is probably going to try to contact you soon so what is your plan?

And here was my Addendum:

Addendum
No Contact/Intermediaries:
� Please do not come to the house.
� Please make no phone calls and send no texts, messages or emails to me � all contact must go through intermediaries.
� Friend & Friend's husband are our intermediaries:
o You may call, email or text them anything about the kids or finances that needs to be communicated to me.
o Their phone numbers and emails: XXXXXXX
� You may contact me directly only in an emergency.
� Your mail will be delivered to work by one of our friends.
Kids:
� I will take the kids to daycare in the morning. I haven�t been able to design a scenario that doesn�t involve seeing you.
� Visitation drop off/pick up of kids:
o Pick up the kids after daycare on the days you have visitation
o Drop off will be arranged at one of our friends� houses, such as XXX�s or XXX's.
� Right of First Refusal: Do you want the kids on the dates listed on the next page or do I need a babysitter? [Included an attachment of dates]. If I do not hear from you soon, I will assume that means you don�t want them and I will get a babysitter.
� Any plans of yours that are not already on the calendar as of this date need to be cleared with me before they can be considered firm and I will do likewise.
Finances:
� You need to start taking care of the [our rental property that he is evicting the tenant so he can move in] mortgage yourself. Also, the garbage bill and any other bills for that house.

Long story about giving him the letter yesterday evening. I ended up having to meet him in the Walmart parking lot because he had lied to me about being at his apartment yesterday evening and claimed he was at Walmart (he wasn't), so when he realized I was going to stop by Walmart because I said I had to to give him something (the PBL and actually I was stopping there to prove he wasn't there), he drove over there.

Long story short: About 10 days ago he started obsessively texting with a LOCAL cell phone number (recall that OW lives 2,000 miles away). Every day, HUNDREDS of text messages. I assume he's started seeing someone else here in our town. That stung.

All of this was reinforced by the fact that a couple of minutes after driving away, I got this message clearly meant for his local OW: "I'm going to be a few minutes late, obviously. On my way. All of the sh-t hit the fan."
Followed immediately by: "Sorry, wrong person."

When I drove the kids to Walmart this morning, I drove past his apartment and his vehicle was not in the driveway at 6:20 am, so I assume he spent the night with the new local OW.

Okay, now that you are in Plan B, you will need to stick to it. Are you prepared to stick to it 100%? He WILL try to break through.

I don't understand the one part in your Addendum, where you mention that you will be taking the children to daycare in the morning. Is this so you won't see him? I am hoping it is.

Can your IM handle this communication well? Do they know how to filter properly for you? I would be willing to help them get started, if they want any help.

Now comes the hardest part of Plan B. Stick to it and I promise it will get better. Don't break your Plan B. Show your WH that you mean it.

The next time that you experience a complication, remember, your WH is NOT somewhere you can turn. You are going to need to think about who else you can turn to. There will be a lot of things that come up. Just remember to stick to plan B.

I am going to give you a gentle 2x4 for this. NOT ALLOWED IN PLAN B.

I know, I know. But since this local OW is a totally new development, I wanted to give myself my own 2x4 by not allowing myself to be in denial about what that text meant. I can rationalize anything. I'm done with all that now. I'm even having my best friend change the password on the wireless account so I can't watch his communication at all. Then I'll give her the info to handle paying the bill every month.

HE'S ALREADY TRYING TO BREAK THROUGH! He already made contact with my intermediary, trying to get to me. She told me she was nervous about leaving something out that was important and asked if she could just forward the whole email to me this first time and then we'd discuss what to do in the future.

He obviously doesn't understand what intermediaries do. He thinks she's just going to forward emails to me. Not sure how to make this all clear to him.

Here's what he wrote (LONG!):

I am willing to work with you on pretty much everything you wanted. However, this is not a process in which you issue orders and I follow them. If you think it is, we had better cut to the chase and involve attorneys now. I understand that you don�t want to talk to me; that�s fine. But I�m not sure what the benefit of sending an e-mail to [friend] so she can send it to you is. An email that comes from me to [friend] to you has the same content as one that comes directly from me to you. And you cannot make unilateral decisions, such as who will be our intermediaries (not that I have anything against [friend] and [friend's husband]), or where we will swap the kids. Again, I understand that you don�t want any more contact with me than you have to have, but this does not mean that you can just make any rules you want. I am willing to work with you on anything; I am not willing to just do whatever you tell me.

I know you don�t want to see me, but it seems you are punishing yourself by taking them to daycare every day. [Because I have to get up so early]. I can come up to the house every day and wait outside in my truck until you leave, if you�d like, and then get them ready and take them. Not sure of any other way to do this.

I called [Tenant] last night (she didn�t answer), and she sent me a text message later that said she had spoken to you, and arranged to give you the rent at the end of the week. Was that after you and I spoke, or is this the arrangement you had previously made? Regardless, I will pay the mortgage. But the money she gives me or you at the end of the week has to go to pay our taxes. And I need to get the tax file, unless you wish to do the state and local taxes. They have to be sent out by Monday, April 18.

[Tenant] also told me she will be out of the house by the end of the month. I am going to check with [his landlord], and see if I can stay an extra week or two in May, just as padding for [Tenant]�s unpredictability.

What is the plan for soccer? Would you like me to take him to practice, and you can take him to games, or vice versa? Let me know. I am flexible. If you want me to take him to practice, you can send his stuff to school with him, and I can pick him up and get him a snack and take him to practice and then drop him off. I can drop him off at the house; he�s capable of coming into the house by himself, so you don�t have to see me. Again, let me know.

Regarding [this Friday, his birthday], yes, I would like to have the kids. I can�t take them all weekend, just because I don�t have the facilities for them to spend the night. Obviously, once I can get into the house, I can get a bedroom set up for them. Until then, I would appreciate your patience, and I would hope we can go by the original agreement we sort of worked out when I do get into the house. I also told [co-worker] that I would come up on Saturday during the day and work on the powerpoints for the classes with him. I am not implying that you are trying to get rid of them, but I would be happy to take them on Sunday if you want, or I will wait til next weekend and take them on Saturday and Sunday, and we can start our regular weekend rotation then. If you want to make plans any evenings or weekends, just let me know.

With regard to [an event I have], the only reason I took the class was because you told me it wasn�t a problem. I specifically asked you when they offered it to me, and you told me to take it, and you would make arrangements. I am willing to attempt to find child care, but I�ll be out of state; I can�t physically pick up a babysitter, or take them up to [his sister's]. All of the other dates on the page are fine with me. I assume they are all on the co-parenting calendar already. [Another event of mine] is fine, also, but I will be leaving for vacation the next day, and then I have a business trip on the Monday and Tuesday after I come back. I am putting them on the calendar.

WHAT DO I HAVE MY INTERMEDIARY DO NOW? I told her I would send her an email with further instructions (although, I already sent her instructions before we started this). I think she got freaked because he mentioned attorneys.

Yes. Due to my work schedule and long commute, he had been coming over to get the kids ready and take them to daycare, because I leave so early. So now I just get up at 4 a.m., to get us all ready and get them to daycare before I leave.

Please, get this email addy to your IMs and ask them to send me the emails, I will guide them through it.

Scotty.mb@hotmail.com

This is what i would have advised your IM to send you(I did it quickly, so bear in mind it might not be perfect).


A good IM means all of the difference in a good Plan B. They are the foundation of it. It is a very important job.

As far as your WH thinking that they will just forward the messages as written, it is what my WH thought(or thinks, I wouldn't know anymore).

The good news is that your WH at least used your IM the first day. That means that if we get your IM trained, it could be possible to get you on the road to personal recovery in no time.

Also, I know that this sounds a bit weird, since you just entered Plan B, but have you thought about what you would do if your WH wanted to come home? Have you a short list of things that he would need to do so you would be willing to look at recovery with him? It's only good to have a first draft just in case. And any of his "talk" about recovery should be done through the IM.

Have you blocked his number? Changed your email? Etc?

Thanks! I texted her your email address as she is not at home, but she said her phone's battery is dying and she will have to get in touch tomorrow. I am going to email her your suggestions as to how to respond to him, just to give her an idea. I'm going to encourage her to get in touch with you and also Melody Lane who also offered a few weeks ago (assuming her offer still stands, too.)

As for if he would want to come home, yes, previously I did start giving it some thought. Although, now with the new local OW, I'm not thinking there's any chance of that at this point. However, here were my initial thoughts:
1. He must end any and all contact and connection with OW permanently and forever.
2. He must change his cell phone number.
3. He must be open, honest and transparent with me in all things (passwords, etc, everything!). (I'm offering him the same from me, so it's not unfair or whatever else he thinks.)
4. He needs to move back into the house.
5. He needs to enter individual counseling. (I'm already in therapy.)
6. We enter marriage counseling and also work through the MB home study course (and SAA).

But seriously, at this point I do not expect it to happen. I think he's going to cut his losses and run, rather than do anything that is difficult or uncomfortable. That's the kind of man he's showing himself to be.

My offer still stands, Hyacinth.. Bravo to you for going into Plan B! I know this was tough, but you will find it gets better and better every week if you stay very dark. You will start feeling very good.

What often happens when a BS goes into Plan B is the WS will try and get through to test your resolve. Most WS's do not like losing control. You can expect him to REFUSE to speak to your IM at first and do his best to circumvent her. You have to stick to your guns, though, and not let him get away with that.

When that ploy doesn't work, the next ploy is to gain access by givnig your IM a line of crap about "we can't see if we want to get together again if we are not in contact!" "she is so immature!" "she is hurting the children by shutting me out!" Hopefully, your IM is briefed enough to not let him get away with that. Have her email me or Scotland so we can help her.

Here's the email I'm getting ready to send to my IM (she won't get this until later tonight and will have to respond to him in the morning):

Please send him an email that says something like this. You can rewrite some of it in your own words if you think it sounds too much like I wrote it. LOL. Also, "Melody Lane" [*edit] and "Scotland" [*edit] from the marriage forums are willing to help you rewrite any emails. The keys points here are (1) not to let him think he's getting to me (he's not in control any longer), (2) let him deal with the consequences of his actions (he hasn't really had any so far), and (3) give me the space and time to be able to start to detach emotionally from him and prepare to move on.

Hyacinth specifically told me not to just forward your emails to her. Her instructions were that I am to rewrite the content of your communications to her and filter out anything other than information regarding the kids or finances. She said she needs to be able to detach from you and cannot do that if she sees you or remains in direct contact with you. Therefore (I'm telling you this just for clarification as to how this will work in the future), I'll send her the following information:

I'll tell her you are doing the taxes and need the tax file. Also that you need [tenant]'s money to pay the taxes.

I'll tell her that you'd like to know what's going to happen with soccer and ask her if she'll be be taking [son] to practices and games or if you will need to?

I'll tell her that you are willing to have the children on your birthday and Sunday, but not overnight. And that you've offered to take them next weekend instead and that you could switch your weekends from then on.

I'll tell her that you have a problem with the date of [event in May] and that further arrangements will need to be made and see what she wants to do about that. I'll also tell her you agreed to the other dates she mentioned and that you've put something on the calendar for the 15-16th.

I will let you know what her response is to your questions.

Thanks.

Do you understand a little better what I mean? I know he freaked you out a bit with all his tough talk, but here's my thought on attorneys and divorce: if that's the decision he's made and that's what he wants, there's nothing I can do to stop him. And if he's using it as a bluff/threat to try to control me, then I'm not going to bite. Either way, whatever it is, so be it.

Thanks again for doing this. If it gets to be too much, please let me know.

So hopefully now she will understand a little better what she needs to do. I did already send her the list of IM instructions I found here at MB, before I PBL'd him. I think she just needs to be walked through the first few contacts with him until she feels comfortable with her role.

If he gets frustrated at loosing control and tries to come by to see you, you simply, firmly and without hostility say "Have you ended your affair(s) yet? When you do, I will be willing to speak with you. Until then, I will not speak with you." Then you shut a door, turn and leave the area, whatever is appropriate.
The line he wrote about how you will not dictate things to him is quite telling that he has NO idea of the new situation. He is no longer in the driver seat of making independant decisions about the marriage.

I know! ALL the stuff in his email about how I can't make unilateral decisions and dictate how things are going to be... I just want to scream: THAT'S WHAT YOU'VE BEEN DOING FOR THE PAST FIVE MONTHS, JACKWAGON! How d'ya like me now?!

WAIT, don't send that to your IM yet. Let me and ML help her with the IMing, you take care of yourself and those kiddos K?

Just quiet your screams, even in your interior and know this is a long road you are on. One where you will need to learn to let otherwise upsetting comments and events just be. You will learn to be still. To not be ruffled. To be logical. To be brave but strong too. To live on your own for your children to lean on even though you would prefer not to have to do so.
Stay the course.
Be true to yourself as a woman.
A totally 100% worthy woman.

BTW, a good, well trained intermediary is gold.

off my soapbox for now.

I didn't want to comment on what he said in his email to your IM because being in Plan B, you shouldn't have seen it. It's typical WS fog babble and there is no need to read into it.

Now, how are you holding up?

Oops! Already sent it. Do you want me to email her again and tell her to wait until she talks to you?


I'm holding up okay. It's only day #2 after all. And you all here are a big help. And I am trying to learn to be still.

Just a quick interjection here. Scotland, I don't know you, but your offer to help Hyacinth impressed me beyond all words. It's so refreshing to see complete strangers go out of their way to help out people that they've never met. And, really, that pat on the back is directed to everyone on this forum.

--This ends my sappy post. Carry on!

hold up!! Tell the IM not to send that email to him!!!

Hyacinth, since you have already seen his email, I suppose it won't hurt this time for you to see a response. This is the response I think she should send. It is polite, non-combative, sticks to the pertinent facts and does not respond to his threats:

Dear WS, thank you for this email for Hyacinth. As per her instructions, I am to only forward pertinent information about the children or finances. Anything else won't be sent.

In view of that, I will be passing on the following information from your email:

1. you are doing the taxes and need the tax file. Also that you need [tenant]'s money to pay the taxes.

2. you'd like to know what's going to happen with soccer and ask her if she'll be be taking [son] to practices and games or if you will need to?

3. you are willing to have the children on your birthday and Sunday, but not overnight. And that you've offered to take them next weekend instead and that you could switch your weekends from then on.

4. you have a problem with the date of [event in May] and that further arrangements will need to be made and see what she wants to do about that.

5. you agreed to the other dates she mentioned and that you've put something on the calendar for the 15-16th.

I will get back to you as soon as possible with the answers.

Thanks much! IM

Have her email me and Scotland the next time she has questions and ask her a) please don't let him rattle you - he will try! and b) please don't send his messages in whole. Just weed out the pertinent facts and ignore the fogbabble and the threats.

I hope you got another shout out to her. Could you call her instead? Try to intercept her before she sends that other email?

I sent her a new email with your content and a text message. I don't think she'll check her email again until late tonight or tomorrow morning, so she'll probably get them all at the same time. Shouldn't be a problem.

See? This is exactly what I predicted and it is CLASSIC WS behavior when a BS goes into Plan B. The problem is that he does not like losing control of you, Hyacinth. Another classic ploy is how he makes plans to get into the house. Expect him to try other ways to achieve that. He will continue to fight to get through so he can regain control.

He does not get to choose your intermediaries. That is not up to him, that is up to you. He either communicates with them or he doesn't get to communicate at all. If he doesn't like those conditions he should give up his affair and come home. But as he abandoned his family he has lost the right to call any shots. You have made his children available to him and given him an avenue for communication. That is all he has a right to expect.

Right now, he is testing you and your IM to see if you mean it. When this doesn't work, you can expect him to drive over to the house and/or call you directly. It will be important to NOT let him through!

No update from my IM yet. WH sent that email to her yesterday at lunch time. She told me about it last night around 7 p.m. and then later yesterday evening I sent her the further instructions we talked about here. This morning I sent her a text asking if she had a chance to read my email and respond to him yet and she said not yet, that she was out of the office today and would do it later.

Hyacinth ~ as predicted he is going to try to contact you. They are soooo predictable.

IF he somehow gets through to you (sends you a direct email, my H did that because my IM wouldn't send it through, LOL), don't open and fwd it right back to your IM. Have your IM respond and let him know you did not open it.

IF he agrees to recovery let your IM figure out how sincere he is. There should be NO NEGOTIATIONS on your recovery requirements. They are what they are, don't reneg on those.

Buckle up for you to crash. Adrenaline got me through the first few days and then I crashed big time. Come here and post for support but DO NOT CONTACT HIM.

Indeed, count on your own emotions being intense and depressed in withdrawal from your spouse/teammate and know it is normal. It is awful and you will get through it faster if YOU don't contact him.

That's my worry, that since he hasn't heard from my IM yet, he's going to get impatient and angry and try to contact me directly. Especially since he erroneously thinks that all she's going to do is forward emails to me. He said so in his email yesterday (which was actually an attachment and was addressed directly to me). He said: "I understand that you don�t want to talk to me; that�s fine. But I�m not sure what the benefit of sending an e-mail to [friend] so she can send it to you is. An email that comes from me to [friend] to you has the same content as one that comes directly from me to you." He doesn't understand that it's NOT going to have the same content, that she's NOT going to just forward his emails to me, that's she's going to edit out all the crap and just give me the info I need. I'm worried that if he thinks I already got his email (technically, I did) and that I'm making the conscious decision of not responding to him, he'll get mad and do... something. I'm not even sure what I'm worried about. That he'll be more of a jerk? (Is that really possible?) That he'll make my life more difficult? (Again, not sure if that's even possible.) I guess I need to just relax and let this unfold as it will.

Should I be worried that ever since she agreed to help me with this, she's given it kind of a low priority? In terms of timeliness, that is. For example, when I emailed her the IM instructions last week before I went into Plan B and asked if she had any questions, it took her days to get back to me. I guess I'm just the kind of person that when things need done, I want to get them done.

I would call her up and ask her if she can reply to him now. Explain to her that you are concerned that waiting is going to aggravate the issue and add a whole new set of problems. Is she in a position where she can quickly respond on a routine basis? Ask her this and suggest that if she is not this might not be a good role for her because it is important to have quick turn arounds.

This might be a disaster if you have to find a new IM. Hopefully you can convey the imporance of urgency to her.

Be brainstorming for a potential list of new IMs just in case it turns out you need another in the future. Don't switch now but be prepared so it doesn't catch you off guard if needed.

She can't respond to him now, I already asked her that. However, I didn't stress my concerns (mostly because she can't do anything about it). I will ask her to call me on her way home from work and talk with her about it. That really is my concern. I know this shocked him and he's probably having a bit of a freak out over it, so I'm worried that further delay is going to escalate things.

I already started thinking of other potential IMs. It's a short list, however. I really thought she was the best choice, but I didn't think she's be so casual about things.

Don't give up on her just yet. She may be looking at this at arm's length because she really doesn't understand the role she'll be playing. Scotty's and Mel's clarification may be what she needs to see in order to understand how Plan B works.

OMG. You were all so correct.

I JUST got an email from him. I didn't open it. I will forward it to her and ask her to deal with it, but I'm a little irritated that it came to this. (A couple of the topics in his first email dealt with child visitation this coming weekend, so I'm guessing that might be what he wants an immediate response about.)

And of course, I'm all shaken up now just seeing that email from him in my inbox.

Right, this is expected.

Can you call your IM right now and see if this is something she's going to be able to handle? It really does need to be someone who can take care of this with a fairly quick turnaround.

If you can't get a hold of her or she says she can't do it any quicker, then start making phone calls to others on your list.

Crap. There doesn't seem to be a way to forward an email without opening it first. Should I try to forward it without looking or should I just delete it and tell my IM to tell him that I deleted it without reading and he should direct all communication to her?

I texted my IM and she said today was just a bad day because she's not usually away from work. She said she's on her way back in to work and will respond to him as soon as she gets back. I asked her to call me after work so we can talk about how to handle things.

Delete that. There is nothing of burning importance in it. Tell your IM to reiterate to him that you will open no mail from him.

I would block his email address while you're at it. You don't need to deal with that emotion whenever you see an email from him.

You can usually set up an email filter or rule that takes mail from certain senders and automatically forwards them to a designated address. There's then, I imagine, an option on whether to keep the email or send it straight to the trash. Best to just have them automatically deleted, lest you be tempted to read them.

I would delete it and block his addy.
It is very very very tough to do but the best way to go.

Yes, I can set up a filter to automatically forward his emails to her and delete them from my account. I forgot about that. Good idea. I wish I would have thought of that before this.

Well, on second thought, then he'd know that his emails were somehow getting forwarded to the IM. He wouldn't be following the rules to not contact you at all.

Have them automatically deleted or blocked. Eventually, he may catch on that his emails aren't getting through and decide to email directly to IM like he's supposed to.

I have to agree with Northwood. Just deleting them will get the message across soon enough. I expect him to resist communicating with your IM at first and that is ok. Once he sees you are serious, he will either get on board or you won't get his messages.

Some even go so far as to try to get their attorneys to FORCE contact. It is absolutely amazing how a WS who wanted no contact previously suddenly will go to extremes to get it!

I agree. I'm not going to reinforce him emailing me. I deleted it and told my IM to tell him that I deleted it without reading it and to remind him that all communication should go through her.

She sent him the email with the list of questions she would be sending me and I sent her answers to the questions to send to him. Then he either emailed or texted her one more question (about seeing the kids tonight, since Wednesdays used to be his dinner visit days) and she texted me for an answer. So it seems he's getting with the program.

You did good!!

Perfect!

My H got with the program right away too. He did try to sneak a couple of direct contacts in there with me, but I was able to circumvent them just fine.

Talk about getting with the program! My IM sent me an email today and she is turning out to be awesome at her job. I think she did a great job of making his content neutral (see below). The other part of the story is that, after initially trying to tell me I couldn't tell him what to do, he's now buckling and following my directions and requests. What does everyone think?

Here's the email she sent:

How do you want to work this Sunday's visitation with the kids?

After this weekend, will you be rotating weekends?

He will pick the kids up tomorrow afternoon, and drop them off he just needs to know when. He also needs to know where, and what time are you dropping them off at daycare in the morning, so he can make sure he is at daycare [to pick them up] before the 9 hr. limit.

Can you give him the username and password for the [rental house] mortgage account so he can pay it online?

Do you want him to come to [our son]'s soccer games if you are there? If not then, then are you going to go to the games during your weekends with the kids and he goes on his weekends?

He is putting a business trip on the calendar for July 6-8. [What he's referring to is that for years we've kept a joint Google calendar called "co-parenting" that we each put our various obligations/appointments/etc on to, things that we each need to be aware of because it might affect child care. This way one of us wouldn't unknowingly schedule something that conflicted.]

Is he still supposed to have the kids on Wednesdays? [When his dinner visits were when I kicked him out last time.] Has this schedule changed, if so what did it change to?

Should he pick the kids up next Tuesday since you have a appointment scheduled for 3:30? [This has been on the Google calendar, that's how he knows.]

He doesn't have anyone to watch the kids on May 6th, if he can't find someone he will cancel his business trip.

Sweet!!! She is doing an awesome job!!

The one watch out I see here are visitation schedules. And maybe that is only because it is all new, but I would look for ways to stick to a strict schedule with very little variance so you aren't dealing with this on a daily basis. Anything you can do to cut that back would be helpful so I would start thinking about that.



That is the perfect solution!

Keep up the good work, Hyacinth, you are doing an awesome job and so is your IM!

Hyacinth, your IM is doing great. Good job IM.


Only a point here, "He doesn't have anyone to watch the kids on May 6th, if he can't find someone he will cancel his business trip." This shouldn't have gotten through, whether he has a sitter or not and would have to cancel a business trip is not anything you should know about. See, he is going to sneak things through and you will have some holes in your Plan B. You may not feel it now, but it will slowly suck away at you.

Are you still using the Google calendar? If so, I would be very careful with this as he will get glimpses of your life that he shouldn't be privy to while you are in Plan B.

You're doing GRREAT. Get as dark as you can and take care of yourself.

To add to what ML has suggested, I AGREE. It will also take some of the pressure off of your IM. You won't burn her out to quickly(says the person who had 3 IMs in one year ARGH). If you get a schedule hammered out in advance, then your IM won't need to be passing messages along. It will help you heal more quickly. That is our main goal here afterall.

Yes, we are trying to work out a regular visitation schedule. During our previous separation, he had them on Wednesday evenings and every other weekend and we're going to go back to that.

This is an issue from a month ago when we mutually agreed to double book ourselves and then try to sort it out together, so I don't see this as him trying to sneak anything through, it's actually him trying to cooperate and work something out. It's just as much my fault/responsibility as his. Also, these business trips are a major source of extra income, so it directly affects how much money I get from him (in addition to his regular salary, I get half of what he makes when he travels, which is substantial). So, yes, I need to know when he travels (so I know how much $ I should be getting) and whether or not he has to cancel a trip. Unfortunately. I can't afford not to.

Yes, I thought that, too. Right now there are a few appointments still on it that can't be changed, but once we have a visitation schedule hammered out, I will schedule stuff for when he has the kids, so I won't have to put anything on the calendar. Then we can really only use it to track his travel (which will sometimes affect the visitation schedule) and if I have anything really unusual and vital that I need to schedule. I see it being phased out as we get further details and regular scheduling worked out.

Here's what I have to send to her to respond to him. Should I have her editing my responses and questions to him to be neutral, also? She asked me that when I sent her my first set of responses and I told her I didn't care one way or the other, that I'm not worried about protecting his feelings. (Then she and I both laughed about that!)

I already know that #1 is over the top, but he claims he is "doesn't have the facilities" to have the kids overnight, for full weekend visits yet, in the tiny, one bedroom apartment he's renting, but that he'll have more room when he moves into our rental property in a few weeks. (His rental has a queen-sized bed in the bedroom and a couch in the living room and that seems like enough room to me!) What he really means is that it's inconvenient and uncomfortable for him. And that's his choice to make, but I shouldn't be inconvenienced so that he can avoid being inconvenienced himself. Trying to figure out how to switch kids twice on a Sunday without having contact with him is a major pain that shouldn't be my problem.

Here are my answers:

1. Sunday: I have no idea how to work visitation this Sunday. He feels it to be inconvenient to him to have his children the entire weekend, however, it's just as inconvenient to me to shuffle them back and forth as it suits him. If he doesn't want to have his kids for the entire weekend - Friday through Sunday - then he needs to figure out some way to exchange them that does not involve me having any direct contact with him, as I've told him I will not have contact with him as long as he is having affairs. If he would rather not have them on Sunday, but have them extra evenings next week, that's fine. This isn't about me trying to deny him the kids. He can see them pretty much as much as he wants (as long as it isn't so often that it denies them to me either, I mean). Or if he can figure out some way to exchange them on Sunday that works, I'm open to hearing his ideas.

2. Weekends: If he wants to start rotating weekends starting this weekend, that should be fine. Obviously, there may have to be some adjusting from time to time due to his travel schedule and other events, but we can work that out on a case-by-case basis.

3. Tomorrow: I will be dropping them at daycare around 6:45 a.m. He can drop the kids off at XXXX and XXXX's. He needs to let me know what time he will be dropping them off so that I can let them know and also so that I know when to pick them up. (I already told them I assumed it would be around 7 or 8?)

4. [Rental] Mortgage: username: xxxx. Password: xxxx

5. Soccer games: It seems fair that we will each only go to soccer games on the weekends that we have the kids.

6. Travel: The July 6-8 trip should be fine.

7. Wednesdays: If he wants to start dinner visits on Wednesdays with the boys again, that's fine with me. This Wednesday, however, [older son] and I will be at the [event we planned in January], but he can have [younger son] on Wednesday if he wants. Does he want to keep [younger son] overnight Wednesday and take him to daycare on Thursday? Or would he rather just switch his dinner visit to Tuesday and have me make other arrangements entirely for Wednesday? (A third option is that he picks up [younger son], but drops him off at XXXX and XXXX's around 7:00.)

8. Tuesday is my appointment, so he will need to pick the boys up that day. If he wants to have that day as his dinner visit this week, that's fine. Please have him let me know since it will affect the time he will drop off the kids and I need to make arrangements.

9. May 6: It was my understanding that originally he was going to ask his mother if she could watch the boys May 6. I would be able to drive them to [town where she lives] any evening that week. If he doesn't want to ask her or she is unavailable, he needs to let me know and I will try to work something out so that he won't have to cancel his trip hopefully.

First, you should be filtering your own emails before you send them to her. Keep it to the basics.

Second, you keep asking HIM what he wants to do. Just tell him. Example, "The children need to be picked up sitter's by XXX o'clock. They can be dropped off at XXX's house any time after XXX o'clock."

I would probably send this to your IM as your response.


This is why it is important to plan ahead before you are doing Plan B so you can get to the healing part.

Every contact you have with your IM is like having contact with your WH. Every contact your WH has with IM is like having contact with you. Try to keep it to a minimum.

Most of that is good and I'm editing my responses. However, one issue with some of that is that our custody agreement has "right of first refusal" in it, which means that if one of us has plans that require a babysitter while we are the custodial parent, the other parent gets the first chance to take the kids before we make alternate arrangements, as long as it is feasible/we have enough notice/etc. So, for example, I can't tell him he can't have our younger son this Wednesday if he wants.

But you don't need to make the arrangements all for him. He needs to pull on his big boy pants and figure some chit out on his own. You can't meet this need for him. There is no need meeting during Plan B.

You do what needs to be done on your end but try to make it as little contact through your IMs as possible. daily exchanges will be NO GOOD to your personal recovery. Get this ironed out hun, so you can move forward. You are doing good and I want you to keep that momentum up.

If I don't make arrangements regarding our younger son this Wednesday, I guarantee he's going to tell me to pick him up at his apartment when my older son and I get back and make a big deal over me being unreasonable for not wanting to see him when that would be the easiest thing to do. [Actually, if we weren't in no contact, he would want to put my younger son to bed at my house and just wait there until I get back because that would be easiest on everyone if circumstances were different.]

So, if I don't make arrangements for the exchange and he tells me to come get him at his apartment, what do I do then?

You don't go to his apartment.

What were you going to do with your son on Wednesday?

See, you are calling the shots here now. YOU decide where the kids go, for how long and when. YOU are the one who decides how this is handled. Don't let him throw wrenches in YOUR plans. You showed strength in getting into Plan B, now you need that little extra push to get you comfortably into it for YOU.

This Wednesday my older son and I have tickets for a concert in another town, about an hour away. We bought the tickets in January and my son is very excited. (Originally, WH and I were both going to take him.)

That's why I'm trying to make alternate arrangements for Wednesday. I have to give him the option to have my younger son because of our custody agreement and so I have to make arrangements for drop off/pick up that doesn't involve contact. And if he decides not to take our younger son for the evening, I have to make different arrangements for that. And all of this is complicated by the fact that my younger son is 2 1/2 and needs to be in bed long before we will get back into town, so he needs to be somewhere he can sleep for the night (my usual babysitter is in high school and not allowed out that late on a school night).

Did you mean what was I going to do with my younger son if WH didn't watch him? Friends of ours have offered to either keep him overnight or put him to bed at their house until we get back into town and we can pick him and take him home then.

A concert! How fun!
I would have IM ask if WH will watch him and take him to daycare?

In the future, try not to vary the schedule.

Concert! Concert! Concert! Yay!

My initial thought is, don't go to the concert. I understand that that isn't going to go over well with our son. I also know, that you wouldn't take that option.

Next, why can't you just tell WH that older son is unavailable for Wednesday, so he can have them on Tuesday this coming week and Wednesday after? If he brings up DS2.5, then you can tell him that he can have DS2.5, pick him up at XXX at XXX time and take him to daycare at XXX on Thursday morning.

This doesn't need to be complicated. You just need to change your thinking. Yes, your arrangement says that he has right to first refusal but isn't Wednesday already his night?

i would make sure that you don't schedule things at times when they are supposed to be with your WH. If that means they miss out on things, so be it. This back and forth isn't going to do them any good either. My boys have missed things because it was my WH's weekend. It is just the way it is. Sucks, but it is reality.

Brainstorm some things, ask for help with it, and you will be amazed how things work out.

Thanks.

As I make changes to my response and think about my first draft, I see now how I was being WAAAAAAAAAY too accommodating. Yikes.

NP, one of the reasons we are here.

See, it's been YEARS of conditioning that you two were ONE. You will need to train yourself not to think that way, but it will take time. If you read my thread, you will see that I asked for help in A LOT of responses at first. I KNEW that I didn't want to say everything that was in my head(well, I actually DID want to, but not in plan B). I asked for help and was honoured enough to receive it. Just ask, it's what we're here for. You don't need to go this alone. You have enough to take care of in the real world, let us lessen your burden by helping where we can.

New development and I need help.

He had the kids tonight for a visit and then dropped them off at a friend's house for me to pick up. My best friend knew he was going to do this and she had a hunch she hadn't told me about, so she and her mother decided to follow him. I DID NOT ask her to do this, but I'm glad she did because she found the local OW. It's a co-worker of his, who I had a funny feeling about but kept shaking it off. This makes me want to throw up. I know this woman, have met her at work functions. She's a close friend of one of my friends. I can't stand her, never have been able to stand her. I have always thought she was trash, but now I know it. I'm repulsed. I really think I'm all done.

Anyway, now I need to start gathering evidence about the affair, because I can file for divorce with fault in my state and get a slightly better settlement, make him pay my court costs, etc.

I am trying not to go off half-cocked here. I don't even know where to start. Any suggestions? I know I need to call a lawyer and plan to do that on Monday. I am also thinking it might be worth it to hire a PI to get some real evidence, because to prove adultery I have to show intent and opportunity. I think I can subpoena the content of his text messages, which will definitely show intent. If I can get photos of him entering her house one evening and not leaving until the next morning, that shows opportunity. I'm starting to plan nuclear exposure, but I'm obviously not doing that until I have all the evidence I need.

What do I do? Where do I start?

I would hire a PI and have him selectively follow him.

I'm trying to find a good PI, but that's proving difficult on the weekend.

This new affair and OW is going to be so much easier to expose, because she's local. I have her list of Facebook friends already, her parents' and sister's addresses and phone numbers. She's divorced and I have the name, address and phone number of her ex-husband. I already have the draft of an exposure letter for his and my friends and family. I'm starting a letter to her friends and family. I'm also starting a letter to their workplace (government agency, has a code of ethics, so I'm curious to see how this pans out). I'm also still exposing his previous affair, the one 2,000 miles away (although he seems to have dropped her).

I'm obviously not exposing until I get the legal evidence I need first, because once he knows I know who she is, it will be harder to find them. What are some tips for things to say in the exposure letters?

Should I call OW at some point? If so, what should I say? My therapist thinks calling OW could possibly make her hang on harder, make her think he must be a prize, if I'm fighting for him so hard that he must be worth it. I don't think she has any illusions that I'm not still part of the picture, based on the message for her that he mistakenly sent me the other night after I gave him the PBL ("All the sh-t just hit the fan.") So I don't think a call from me will make her back off; I think she doesn't care that he's still married.

I also have the name of a good attorney to call on Monday, recommended by my friend who is an out-of-state lawyer (so she unfortunately can't represent me. She doesn't do domestic law anyway.)

Hyacinth, sorry that you have found this out, although now you know what you are fighting and WHO the enemy is. Can you sit on this until you can get the evidence from a PI?

I know this is hard, and it is going to take a lot of strength but DO NOT contact them. You are in Plan B. Don't ruin it because of this OW. I would say that you need to expose, but after that, let them stew in their own juices. Get yourself behind the strong dark Plan B curtain and start to heal yourself.

You don't need to make any decisions right now about it you are going to work on your marriage or not, just do what is best for you right now.

Also, after this, any time ANYONE tells you about your WH, you need to tell them that you are trying to protect yourself and you don't want to know anything about him.

Yes, I am definitely sitting on this until I have evidence from a PI. I found the PI to hire (good recommendation and reputable), I just have to get in touch. Difficult on a weekend.

Once I have all the evidence I need, I'm going to do a NUCLEAR exposure and then just go back to my own life. I feel sort of badly for our friends and family, though, because this is really going to polarize those groups. Everyone is going to be forced now to make choices and choose sides. (Because the first OW was so far away and seemingly "out of the picture" - although I knew better - this didn't really happen before.)

For our families, the choice is obvious (blood is thicker), but our friends -- the extended group of them -- are going to end up deciding who they are willing to associate with, because the core of our group comes from my husband's workplace. So, even though this woman isn't in our social group, she is known by everyone and is friends with a couple of the more peripheral members of our group. It will be interesting to find out who my true friends are.

By the way, my best friend drove by the OW's house again twice today and he is STILL out there. Never left. I am nauseated by this, which I'm sure everyone can relate to. It would be better, I think, if I hadn't already known so well what a trashy wh-re she is. That he knows it too is really hard to stomach.

Yes, hire the PI and get evidence and then do nuclear exposure.

You have a good plan set out, great job on that. Your Plan B is helping to protect you for now, that is a good thing.

Can't wait to hear what the PI finds!

I am sorry you are dealing with this. I know it sucks.

The PI that was recommended to me won't take the case because of what my husband and this woman do for a living. (I mentioned before, he works for a government agency.) So now I am back to square one. We live in a very distant suburb of the closest city and I haven't been able to find anyone else around here who is reputable. So I've made no progress with getting good evidence. I want to get that part over with so I can stop thinking about it!

I do have an appointment to meet with an attorney next Friday. Very good firm (in that somewhat distant city) recommended to me by a lawyer friend (who lives out-of-state and doesn't do family law anyway). When I meet with her, I'm going to see if it is even worth pursuing evidence. I can file for divorce with fault in this state, but I don't think it gets me much. I am hoping if I do that, it can at least force him to pay my legal costs. But I don't think it has any effect on child custody or child support or spousal support. I guess I'll find out. If it is worth it to file with fault, I'm hoping the law firm has a PI either on retainer or one they can recommend.

All this has done is stir everything back up for me. Not to mention that this new affair seems much more deliberate, which feels like a worse betrayal. I can't believe that just as I was starting to find some peace, it was ripped away from me. I saw OW at Target yesterday and almost puked. One of my consolations of Plan B was that he can't stand to be alone and I enjoyed the thought of him sitting in his apartment alone, living with the consequences of his choices. But now he isn't living with any consequences at all. He's having fun and enjoying his "single" life. I feel worse than I did five months ago when all this misery started.

Think back to your 20's when you'd see 40-something year old men sitting in bars chatting up young single women. A buck gets you twenty that he's not as happy as you'd think. Reality can be a real bisch sometimes.

But, then, you're not supposed to be concerned about that, right

But that's the thing... he's NOT out trolling bars. This new OW is 31, divorced and has a nice little house of her own. He's over there every single night playing house with her. So, no... I don't believe that right now he's not blissfully happy. In fact, I believe the only thing he misses are his kids. Other than time with his kids, she is completely able to meet every one of his ENs.


I know I'm not, but this new OW has set me back to the starting point. Remember how D-Day feels? I'm right back there. I'm still processing this new development. My state of mind going into Plan B was totally based on everything that had happened prior to him being involved with her. She's only been in the picture three weeks. I wasn't even 100% sure she existed until I gave him the PBL and he goofed and sent me the text meant for her (I thought he might have gotten the out-of-town OW a local cell phone because something similar to that happened before). I can barely wrap my mind around all of this. Plus, it's going on right here at home, in my town, as opposed to his previous OW who lives 2,000 miles away. I'm freaking about the possibility of him doing something crazy like trying to take my kids to her house when he has them next weekend. Or having her over to his apartment while they're there.

And now I feel like this spells the absolute, immediate end for our marriage, instead of being able to spend a nice long Plan B adjusting to that thought. I'm not coping well; I'm not able to stop thinking about it.

Go ahead and expose this new OW like you mentioned in your 4/16/2011 post above. Then go from there as the fallout is probably going to change how she and your husband interact.

Do it sooner rather than later. No need for them to play house any longer without having their little world crash down on them. Do it BEFORE his next weekend with the kids.

You have info on OW's parents and family, right?

I haven't exposed them yet because I don't have the evidence I need to file for divorce with-fault. I won't meet with my attorney until next Friday (to discuss divorce/with-fault/evidence/private investigator) and next Friday is his first weekend with the kids. Once I expose, it will be too late to get evidence because I know they'll go underground. The only reason why they haven't yet is because they think nobody -- me included -- knows about them. Her house is secluded and they are never in public together. He is going to be shocked that I figured it out because I'm sure he thinks they're being very careful. I'm just a lot smarter than him.

But, let me say I an DYING to expose them so I can stop thinking about this. It seems like every time I want or need to do something to start healing, there's some obstacle in the way that delays it.

(((Hyacinth)))

So sorry about the new d-day. Your H is a serial cheater.

Could there be other affairs in the past as well?

(((Hyacinth)))

Are you able to get a fried to take pics if you can't get a PI to do it? Make sure you ask your lawyer what type of evidence you will need. The sooner you get this A exposed, the better.

I KNOW what it feels like to have my WH living with OW and my children being exposed to her. I take solace in them being old enough to KNOW about OW and what she represents to their family. It SUCKS, but when you are in Plan B, you are able to heal. All of this thinking about getting this newly discovered A exposed is keeping you stuck. Once you can get this out of the way, you will feel so much better.

Well, it's been a while since I last updated because I've been trying to Plan B to the point that I don't think about him at all. This whole situation has me actually physically ill when I do think about it and I've already lost too much weight. But an update is in order. Yesterday is a month since I started Plan B.

As for whether I think there are other affairs in the past, I know it sounds naive, but I truly don't believe there have been. I've known WH since we were 10 & 11, been together since 16 & 17 (that's 24 years). When he came back from that Vegas trip after the first affair, he was 100% changed; an alien. And he's been different ever since. Everyone in our lives have commented on it and in the last six months he's dropped all his old friends, stopped communicating with his family and just completely become a different person. His transformation was so sudden and so shocking.

I met with a very good (and very expensive) lawyer and got lots of advice about how to proceed. Basically, filing with fault won't get me much. And right now he is being very cooperative regarding finances and our house/property, so she said it is in my best interest not to antagonize him if possible, because our finances are so tenuous right now that if I proceed and file for D, we will have to then go ahead with child support and alimony which will be less than the 100% of his income that I have at my disposal now. I know this sounds cold, but the household we have established takes both of our incomes to maintain. If he reduces the amount he contributes, our house will be foreclosed on and we will lose all our equity, which will be devastating to me when it comes to buy a new house for me and our kids. There's a lot more to this, but I don't know if anyone here is interested (let me know if you are and I will give details). Basically, since we aren't able to sell our house right now (long story) and I can't afford to leave it anyway, and the rest of our finances are such a mess, I am better off letting things just be an extended separation as long as he is financially cooperative until we can sell our house, which will be the beginning of sorting out our finances. So I wait...

I have exposed to our friends, my family and his mother. I have asked people to confront him. I don't think anyone has.

His mother is so passive, I am sick of listening to her say she is going to say something to him and then not doing it. The last time she said she was going to confront him, I asked her if she was going to call him or do it in person and she said she was going to email him! Could she be more pitiful? And she still hasn't done it as of last night. She keeps wanting ME to confront him again, keeps wanting me to open a more direct channel of communication with him again, even though I told her four months of that got me nothing but hurt further. She's useless.

He is avoiding our friends and even though I have asked them to say something, they basically have just cut him off and have closed ranks around me to protect me. I appreciate the support, but I don't know how I can keep asking them to confront him when they just aren't doing it. Most of the men just want to "stay out of it" because they say it's not their business (the women tell me this). He avoids them anyway, so I don't even know how they would confront him because they they don't have access to him. I don't know what to do.

Wow....awful. Too bad there are so many "too-polite" wimps out there. Makes me think yet again of that quote "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Waywards really need people to get in their faces and tell them strongly that they are about to lose something very important. After the fog lifts, the wayward may even be thankful.

Could you ask a few of your most staunch and strong allies to PLEASE make a personal call or visit to your WS?

The "going dark" part of Plan B is going fairly well. My intermediary is pretty good, although sometimes I think she lets things through from his emails that is too much, be then she and I talk about that. We are still working on establishing a visitation routine because his work travel schedule is not a set thing and so we periodically have to make adjustments. I am trying to not have to communicate any more than once a week, longer if possible. Last week he sent an email that I didn't think required an immediate response and yesterday he emailed my IM complaining that he hadn't heard back from me. She said he is very frustrated that he doesn't have access to me. He frequently expresses that he doesn't "get" communicating through an IM. In the last email I sent to him, I told him this:

I sympathize that you don't understand why I need to communicate through [our IMs], but I'm not sure what to say beyond what I already have to help you understand. Simplest put, it's to provide me with an emotional buffer between the two of us. It is absolutely not meant to hurt or punish you. I'm allowing you to live your life and giving you the space to make your own choices and all I'm asking for is the same. If you would rather I email you directly, I am willing to do that, but I still need emails from you to come through [IM]. She filters out everything I do not need to read or know and gives me only the basic information, in third person, without any emotion or personality. That emotional detachment is very helpful to me. I don't understand what you want or expect from me, but if you would give me some specifics or clarification I can try to address it. If you need more clarification from me on this let me know and I will try.

I know this is too much communication, but I need it to sink in and for him to LEAVE ME ALONE.

He's behaving in a very weird, unpredictable pattern of hostility and cooperation. Is this normal for Plan B? I'm guessing it probably is. I've asked him to do some things for me that I thought he would refuse to do because it would be an inconvenience for him or just something that would involve him doing me a favor that he didn't need to bother to do (I admit I did it as kind of a test to see how cooperative he was being, testing the waters as we head toward divorce court) and he has done them willingly. But, then he removed me as his wife on Facebook. My IM thinks he did that (and a few other offenses) to try to push my buttons and then he gets agitated when I don't react at all. Also, his behavior with the local OW is getting more and more obnoxious. I think he is basically "dating" her openly now, based on what some people have told me before I could tell them not to tell me anything. Last week he had to register our son for Kindergarten because after my surgery I don't have any leave left for the remainder of the school year so I couldn't do it. He sent my IM a 2 page email with a long, detailed story about registration, telling funny stories about what our son said and did, how smart he is and how impressed the school was. She told me before she sent it that she knew it shouldn't come through, but that she also knew I would want all those details about my son. She edited it as best she could, but after I read it she and I talked and we agreed he must be lonely (regardless of the OW) for both his kids and someone he can talk to about them. However, he made his choice.

He keeps making suggestions about doing maintenance and repairs around our house - which are going to need to be done at some point -- but I obviously haven't taken him up on any of it. At some point I will have to let him do some work so we can sell the house, but I'm hoping for at least 6 months of peace before that has to happen. My IM's husband and a few other friend's husbands have been awesome, stepping in and helping me with things that I can't do alone or else don't know how to do.

I am going to have to do this. AGAIN. But I still don't know that I will get anywhere. Part of it is that there is not one single person that thinks I shouldn't just completely be done with him at this point. Everyone has been telling me how strong I have been and how I put up with this for a lot longer than they would have and how they're glad I'm finally moving on.

I love updates.

Now for my critical judgements (hopefully not disrespectful ones). To help you tweak your plan B a bit. To make it even stronger.

No more sending actual messages to each other through IM. It hurts your spirit more than help it.
Pertinent facts only.

Find alternative ways for the home to be fixed for sale or sale as is.

You must continue to protect yourself. Even against yourself.

If he ever chooses to rebuild with you, you will need to know you do not need him for anything. Not cute kid stories. Not handyman skills.

That will be your power.

I do understand that.

I appreciate the suggestion, but unless you've got an extra $100,000 lying around to hand me, it's not feasible. I'm not exaggerating when I say I will have to declare bankruptcy and move my children to the ghetto. Our finances aren't technically bad, just very complicated and were not set up to be dissolved at this point in time.

I don't see us rebuilding. He's completely out of control and getting worse.

He doesn't know the cute kid story made it through. And I have been totally ignoring his "pleas" to help around the house, but I will tell my IM to not let them through at all anymore. I do think it is driving him nuts that I don't need him for anything (other than "testing" him that first week to gauge what his level of cooperation was going to be, I haven't asked). The problem is that I DO need his help with stuff. We don't have any family nearby, no extra money and I am worried I am burning out my friends by leaning too heavily on them. How does everyone else do this?

Hyacinth, reading is right, you need to find some other way to fix up your house or not do it at all. That would be a disaster. Plan B is supposed to emulate divorce and when you are divorced, your XH doesn't get to come to your home and make repairs.

There is way too much information going back and forth between you two and you know way too much information about him. I would stop looking at his facebook and keeping track of what he does. That defeats the purpose of Plan B.

They rely on friends, family or hire handymen. What they don't do is allow their WS to come on the property because that just defeats the purpose of Plan B. Hyacinth, your H may never come back. The point of Plan B is to prepare you for that eventuality. You have to learn to find other methods.

Ha! Wrong message board~! I am losing my mind!

I didn't look at his Facebook. I don't. That was something a friend called to tell me and I told her to stop telling me stuff about him. This was back in the very beginning of Plan B, too. when people kept trying to tell me things about him and I had to keep telling them not to.

However, as the house thing goes, then in all honesty at some point I am just going to fail at Plan B. It won't be for 6 months or a year, but I cannot afford to not let him have access to the house at some point so we can sell it without a huge loss. We can't afford to take a loss. I am doing everything I can by myself or with friends right now, but we were in the middle of a huge do-it-yourself renovation when this happened. I'm not talking about a simple house and yard, our home and property are more complicated than that. At some point, I am going to cap out on what I can do, what friends can do and I have ZERO free funds to hire anyone. Not kidding. Since WH started this craziness, we've been digging a hole deeper and deeper financially, because it used to take both our incomes for our house, daycare ($13,000+ a year!) and other expenses. Now every month we are more and more in the red. (This would have eased up and even improved over the next few years. We had a long-term plan in place but it got shot to h-ll obviously.) Is everyone here independently wealthy? I don't get it. This is about providing my kids with the best possible future. I would never have bought this house if it wasn't for him. In my next home, I WON'T need him because I will not have the unique set of circumstances that are involved with this house and property. Once we sell this house, I can walk away and not look back, but the way things are right now, like I said, does anyone have a spare $100,000 (or possibly more) lying around? Because I don't.

But like I said, this won't happen for six months or a year. There's too much other stuff going on that keeps him at bay. And even if I was willing to let him do all the work now (which I'm not), it wouldn't matter. because it would take him too long to complete it and -- long story, but we can't put this house on the market at just any time of the year, either. Like I said, it's complicated. So I can put this off for a long while, but not forever.

What am I missing here? I do understand that Plan B is supposed to emulate being divorced.

However, I am not willing to turn him into an arch-enemy forever, especially once we are divorced. We ARE headed for divorce, I have no doubt of that. (I mean, do any of you really believe this is repairable? Because I don't.) But I will never be able to heal myself if at some point I don't forgive him. I need to move on and if he and I are at odds for the rest of our lives, that will be toxic to not only the two of us, but to our kids. On the other hand, I am NOT saying that at some point we're going to be friends and "hang out" either. (And what IS IT with sitcoms these days selling that scenario?!) But to me, the idea of keeping that animosity going means perpetuating the hurt and keeping the situation alive and ongoing. I just want to detach, put it to rest, and move on. And at that point, who cares what he does?

Plan B is not animosity.
Far from it.

It prevents the otherwise huge amount of animosity.

It is Plan B 'in love but not participating in being abused'.

Okay. Then other than when he tries to break through or do something to otherwise "get to" me, I think it's going okay for the first month, especially since we have two very small children and have been forced to deal with issues surrounding them. Most times I can go days and days without having to think about the situation. I'm putting my bad feelings to rest. I'm starting to craft my OWN future, independent of him.

However, now there's another new issue... (SEE NEXT POST)

Here is the most awful development. Last night he had a dinner visit with our boys, who are 3 and 5. Who he hadn't seen in over a week. His visit was only three and a half hours long. And he TOOK THEM TO DINNER WITH THE OW. Who he has only been "involved with" for only a month, when he picked her up in a bar, back when he was still pretending to reconcile with me. I have been sick to my stomach since my 5 year old told me about this.

I talked to everyone I could think of to get support and everyone agreed that this is WRONG WRONG WRONG (including his mother, but who again wants ME to be the one to address it with him). We do not have any kind of custody or parenting agreement yet, other than just a verbal agreement of one evening a week and every other weekend. He is supposed to have them for a weekend visit in two days. Today I was going to send him an email that includes the following:

(It starts with discussing a carseat decision he made without my agreement regarding with my 5 year old (to move him to a booster and seatbelt rather than the carseat he still fits in) and didn't consult me on, just told me what he was going to do (saying a booster costs $20 and then he can move our younger son to the carseat, rather than spending $150 on a new carseat for our 3YO). This is not what we had always agreed on before.)

We had previously agreed to keep 5YO and 3YO in carseats as long as possible, regardless of their ability to use a booster seat and seat belt, because carseats with five-point harnesses are safer, especially as they don't have airbags. I don't think that $150 is too much to spend for 5YO's safety.

Several recent incidents and issues have me concerned that we are not in agreement on parenting decisions regarding the health, safety and well-being of [5 year old son] and [3 year old son]. To this point, I am starting to see some of the behaviors that my therapist said to watch out for (sleep disturbances, accidents, acting out, etc). I know you said that you did not observe anything of concern when they visited you last, however, when they are with you they are not in their regular environment and therefore I don't think you're going to see typical behavior from them. In addition to the observed behaviors, [5 year old son] especially has said some strange things to me, like recently telling me several times that he wants me to get a new husband, which is inappropriate and disturbing. He seems confused and upset much of the time. We need to write a temporary custody agreement settling things before we continue with more visitation. Although I still don't believe it is in my best interest to have any direct contact with you, the health and well-being of [5 year old] and [3YO] are more pressing needs at this point than my own health and well-being. Since you have a visit with the boys scheduled for this weekend, I don't think we have time to do this through email. Therefore, if you want, I am willing to meet with you tonight or tomorrow before visitation to create an agreement. If this isn't convenient for you, we can postpone your visit until after you return from your trip and can write an agreement. I understand that you are probably going to be upset that I am saying this, however, this is in the best interest of [5YO] and [3YO]. I think it will benefit all four of us if you and I can come to agreement on these issues. Also, preliminarily settling these issues between ourselves will save us a great deal of money, time and inconvenience. I believe that we do agree on most things, but we need to have a plan in place so that when issues arise we either already are in agreement or else have a system in place to make those decisions. Of course, any agreement we create will only be in effect until it is either superseded by a new agreement which we both agree to or until a permanent custody agreement is put in place by the courts.

Some issues that we need to consider include:

Visitation schedule (Holidays, birthdays, vacations, friends' parties, extracurricular activities, etc) -- we have already agreed on some, but not all, of this
Special circumstances (sick days, snow days)
Adjustments for your travel
Transportation
Location of visitation
Transitions
Communication issues (between parents and also between children and non-custodial parent)
Parenting decisions
Medical/dental care/mental health (decisions, appointments)
Insurance - medical insurance, life insurance
Babysitters
Daycare/school/homework/extra-curricular activities
Safety
Flexibility/canceling/right of first refusal/time frames/consequences
Discipline
Allowance/savings
Kids' "stuff"
Financial issues

There are more issues, I'm sure, but those are some I can think of off the top of my head that need addressed immediately. Please consider these topics and have some proposals ready. If there are any other issues which you can think of that need addressed at this time, I would like to hear them. Sending me an email about them before we meet will save us time. I have a book on drafting custody/parenting agreements that has worksheets in it and seems very detailed which I will bring when we meet.

I do not want to see him, I know I am supposed to be completely dark, but I don't know what else to do. We haven't filed for divorce yet, don't have lawyers or a custody agreement. If I try to just keep the kids from him this weekend, he can use that against me. But I am seriously worried about my kids, especially as he should know this is not a good idea. He seems to be getting more and more unstable. My IM has agreed to be with me when I meet with him. When he and I don't agree, he will initially grandstand and yell and stuff, but as long as I am calm and hold my ground he usually backs down. I think I can get him to back down and work out a reasonable arrangement. He doesn't know his mother knows anything, so the fact that she told me to tell him not to have the boys around OW is something I can use to try to convince him that he is unreasonable, out of control, inappropriate and that he needs to stop. He needs to know that no one supports him on this. He and I are still married, our kids are very young and he has only technically been out for one month.

I also don't really want to sandbag him on the mistress issue and just spring it on him when we meet (because I think he will flip out and stop being reasonable), but I couldn't figure out how to add that to the list -- "morality" or "dating while still married to their mom" or "not screwing your kids' heads up" -- without antagonizing him and putting him on the defensive more than he already is going to be.

Or am I supposed to just ignore this and let him expose them to this inappropriate behavior? I know I can get him to stop/back off for now if I confront him. Last night my 3YO woke up screaming twice in the night and yesterday my 5YO pooped his pants at daycare/preschool (which he hasn't done in 3 years) I know because he was wound up over having a visit with his dad. Every visitation, they have a terrible time with transitions and it makes me so sad for them. WH refuses to do anything to help them adjust, like discuss this with them, even though I've asked in the past. One of my close friends is a social worker/counselor who works with children and is one of the people most adamant that something needs done asap for the kids' sake.

So, I know having contact with him is bad, but time is a factor here and we need to come to an arrangement now. What should I do?

Why oh WHY is it that whenever things calm down and I am doing well, something like this always seems to happen? Why can't anything go according to plan? Why won't it stop? Why does he seem determined to torture me? Why can't I just have some peace?

This is the stuff that sucks all the life out of me and I don't know what to do, so I lose all my momentum. It makes me feel so exhausted I just want to lie down and give up.

Hyacinth,

I guaran-damn-tee you he won't be accommodating at all to anything you said in your email. His eyes will glass over and you'll get in an argument.

Face it, he flat out DOES NOT CARE how his children are being affected. And you're not the only one on this forum with similar concerns.

My advice is to file for a legal separation with a concrete visitation plan and a clause that states that he cannot have overnight visitors of the opposite sex (save family) when he has visitation. You could go ahead and put in OW's name specifically, and that the children shall not be in contact with her, but (legally) there's little you can do.

That's what I'd do. Forget trying to reason with him or appeal to any paternal concern...there isn't any. Sorry you're going through this, but I'd hate to see you trying to go down this road with the assumption that he'll see the light with regards to his children.

Too, I'd make an appointment with a child psychologist to discuss your concerns for two reasons. One, you/they can get advice on how to work with this and two, it documents that your children are under mental stress as a direct result of your husband's actions.

In other words, don't send him that email.

I don't understand why you even stay in Plan B if all you are going to do is find new reasons to break it? Why even bother? Just today alone, you have drummed up numerous "reasons" why you can't stay dark.

And if you believe that Plan B causes this "toxic" environment, rather than his affair, then why bother? Look, I am not trying to be callous here, but it appears to me that we take this much more seriously than you do. Instead of finding of ways to stay dark, you seem to be looking for ways to not stay dark.

Why bother? I ask this seriously..

Hyacinth --

I think your situation is extremely hopeful. I have absolutely no doubt that your husband will come back.

But not if you sabotage your own plan.

Stop visitation. Through your IM send him the message that your precious children are not to be exposed to his affair-partners.

Good idea. What's he going to do? Go to court and wine that you won't let your kids around his adultery partner?

Even if he does, no loss on your part.

I want to clarify that I DON'T mean that Plan B is toxic, I think it is and has been very healthy for me (possibly not so much for him, but that's neither here or there ). What I meant was that my children are 3 and 5 and let's face it, it's not going to be possible to remain absolutely dark for the rest of my life, as much as I might wish I could. At some point, years down the road, he and I are going to have to come to terms with all of this and leave it behind. That's all I meant; we will not be adversarial forever. Or at least, I am not willing to be. But as long as he is adversarial toward me, I will not have contact with him, so who knows... it MAY be forever after all.

There is no legal separation in my state, I thought I had mentioned that before, although we can have a legal custody agreement without filing for divorce because we do not live together. That's apparently what we're going to have to do, but I'm not sure how to go about that, since I DO agree with all of you that I do not want to break Plan B and have contact with him. Also, my lawyer already told me that judges here do not like to rule on people's personal lives and that I have absolutely NO chance of restricting him from exposing them to OW, unless she is a drug addict or something (she's not... just a tramp). That's why I was trying to "bully" him into agreeing to my demands (because I can usually do that). Unless I can get him to go along with it, he can go to court tomorrow, demand 50% visitation and he'll get it until we can hash this out in the courts. And he would probably get 50% even once we hash it out. Infidelity has NO BEARING on custody; you all know that.

So... I just have my IM tell him he can't have the kids until... what? He signs something agreeing to not expose my children to his adulterous affair accomplice?

It COULD potentially be a loss on my part, if the court views me as trying to restrict his access to his children, interfere with visitation, or "turn them against him" in any way. Then, ironically, I could be the one seen as a bad influence.

I have never seen this become a problem. I would have the IM tell him he can't expose the kids to his affair. Many folks here have this in their divorce/separation papers. You are not restricting his access to his children, you are restricting their exposure to his affair, which is an unfit environment for kids. He is trying to teach your kids that wrong is right, and that is very sick and dysfunctional for kids. I take it you have discussed adultery with the older child and why that is wrong?

Well, I don't really think it will be a real a problem with anyone other than him and his family (because he'll spin it and I already explained how passive aggressive they all are.)

No, I haven't discussed adultery with my 5 year old. I did not want to confuse him, put him in the middle or make him feel like he had to choose between his dad and I. Also, as a child of divorce, I know that the parent who bad-mouths the other ends up being the one who loses the child's respect, not matter what the other parent did.

Ugh. I thought I could get to my IM before she got home and checked her email, but I had already sent it to her this afternoon and she already sent it to him by the time I caught her. Darn smartphones. (When I was busy doing my normal afternoon commute/pick up kids/soccer practice.) It's too late.

But I am still prepared NOT to break Plan B and meet him.

Now what should I do? She said she has a response from him and he said he is willing to meet me tomorrow afternoon. She said there's a lot more to his response but didn't tell me what it was because I assume it was venomous.

Tell her to tell him you are not going to meet him afterall.

That you wrote the message when you were feeling upset and that you prefer to remain in no-contact while his affair continues.

Then continue in plan B.

Oh no, I am not recommending you bad mouth him. I am recommending you tell him the truth and give him moral guidance about adultery so your husband and his adultery partner don't confuse him. Your silence will confuse him more. If you want to screw with a kids head, introduce him to immoral situation but pretend like everything is ok. And that is ok if you endorse adultery, as your husband does. But if you are against adultery, I would teach your 5 year old right from wrong. I assure you he senses something is very wrong with this set up and if you don't validate that instinct he will learn to doubt his instincts about right and wrong and conclude he is stupid.

Take it from someone who was introduced to her father's adultery partners as young as age 4. It is confusing as hell. My mothers silence added to that confusion and I figured out very early on that I was a very stupid girl. Obviously what seemed wrong to me was not wrong to adults. I didn't know how to voice that confusion at age 4, but I knew something was very, very off. Don't do that to your kids.

If its ok for your husband to teach your children that wrong is right, it is ok for you to teach them that wrong is wrong.

Hyacinth, let me ask this another way. If you won't teach your kids right from wrong, WHO WILL? Whose job is that?

Hyacinth, do me a couple of favours would ya? First, don't leave the boards for so long, for a while. We need to keep you on track and in a dark plan B. Second, could you get that IM to contact either myself or ML? We offered before. I am willing to help her for a while so she can learn how to filter.

The backbone of a great Plan B is the IM.

Believe me, you need a better IM. She needs to protect you from yourself if nothing else. As an IM, I wouldn't have sent that email to your WH.

Wanna know if I am wealthy? I can tell you that I am no where near it. My house is worth less than what you said you needed to fix yours. There are repairs that need to be done here too. I have my dad, my BIL and ME. That's right. I have learned how to do things that I didn't do before. It actually made me feel GREAT. I have been in Plan B for more than a YEAR.

I see what you're saying. I'm just going to have to think about how to word what I need to say with him. He's very perceptive. Today he heard me on the phone saying something about "safeguarding my kids" and he asked what I meant by safeguarding and then what I was guarding them from. I told him I'd tell him later.

I won't. I was just trying so hard not to think about him or any of this that I couldn't bear to rehash it all again yet.

I will talk to her.

Oh, it's not that it will take 100,000 grand to fix this house, that's just about what it will take to get us free and clear of this house, our other house (which was a rental that is in terrible condition that probably isn't worth what we owe the bank), our home equity line of credit and some other debt. It was all "good" debt (meaning long-term investment-type debt) until we took the "long-term" out of that equation. Things that weren't supposed to be paid off for 5-10-15-20-30 years will have to be paid off NOW for us to get divorced. Damn near impossible. But I'll figure it out. And I am doing as much as I can, with my dad's help and friends' help. Which is why if he ever has to come over and do anything for us to sell this house, it won't be for a very long time (when I've run out of what I can do) and he can do it when I go on vacation or visit friends.

This should be done age appropriately. Like this.

DS5 Mommy, what does safegurading mean?

You It means protecting

DS5 Protecting from what?

You From any and all evils in the world hunny. That's one of Mommy's jobs.

DS5 okay.

My children were 6 and 8 when I exposed to them. It makes it so much easier when they know everything that is going on.

What explanation was he given to explain his father's adultery? Keep in mind that your husband's goal is to teach him that adultery is perfectly acceptable, just another lifestyle choice. His goal is to normalize his crime. That is what your husband is teaching your kids. It is like teaching your kid to steal. So unless you correct that teaching he will grow up and be a little adulterer himself unless he somehow finds out about right and wrong on his own.

He is being taught that anything is acceptable as long as it makes you happy. That lesson will be a disaster when he gets a little older.

And don't get me wrong, some kids do grow up and figure out right from wrong on their own. I taught myself right from wrong when I was in my 30's. Better late than never. I have brothers and sisters who weren't so fortunate, though, and have terrible lives.

I would tell him that his dad is committing adultery with Mrs Skankho and that is a very bad thing like lying or stealing. Married people are not supposed to have girlfriends. It is immoral and very wrong. MrsSkank wants to break up your parents marriage so she can have an affair with your dad.

It is very likely that he already senses something is very wrong, and he just needs you to validate that and give him some moral guidance. Tell him WHY adultery is immoral and how much his dad's affair hurts you.

Tell her to tell him that you cannot make it until skanko is out of the picture. No additional explanation necessary.

I've made plans to leave work early today to pick up my kids from daycare before the usual time, because my IM was worried that even though he agreed to meet with me today before visitation, that he would try to do an end run around me and pick them up before we "meet" anyway. I haven't canceled the meeting yet, because if I cancel the meeting and visitation now, I know he will get angry and go get the kids. I don't have any leave left at work, so I can't take the day off. I don't work in the town we live and daycare is in. I tried to find someone who could pick up my kids early and keep them until I could get there, but since it was last minute I couldn't. And since we don't have a custody agreement, I can't tell daycare not to let him have them (well, I could try but they wouldn't do it because they can't). So, hopefully just being there about an hour early is going to be enough.

After I pick them up, my IM is going to send him an email that says the meeting is canceled and that visitation is canceled because exposing our children to his adulterous affair shows a complete lack of judgment, no concern for their well-being and is harmful to them.

He's going to be really angry and the only reason why I care about that is that I am not sure what his reaction will be. Normally, I would not worry, but the fact that he exposed my children to the OW (5YO told me this morning that they didn't just go to dinner, she came to the park with them, too) shows that he is not acting the way anyone would have predicted. In fact, I've been saying for the last month that I was worried this would happen and everyone has been saying there is no way he would do this. And then he did and everyone was shocked and said it was crazy. So, normally I wouldn't worry that he was going to do anything extreme, but now I am not so sure.

I'm also working on writing an exposure letter to his sister and her husband. They don't know anything that has happened since the beginning of the year, don't know we have tried to reconcile and think we have been separated all this time. I want them to know that this woman isn't a "girlfriend," but is actually another affair partner, because I think that he's going to do two things. 1) Try to get their support when I cut off visitation and say I am being crazy and unreasonable and 2)Take OW to their home and family functions as a legitimate "girlfriend."

Like I said, I'm writing an exposure letter to his sister and her husband (WH's best friend, but who he hasn't spoken to in months). It is an update of the last 5 months; very detailed because his sister will want details. Is anyone here willing to take a look at the first draft? It's very, very, very long.

Feel free to post it, but wouldn't a phone call work just as well?

Possibly. You do have a point.

I guess my reason for an email is that all of the information on the past five months is totally new information to them, so it would give her time to process it all without having to have a two-way conversation. But I am thinking that a conversation is probably better because then she can ask questions.

He has hidden from his family the fact that were were even trying to reconcile for the past five months. This new OW is going to be presented by him as a girlfriend that he is entitled to date since his family believes he and I have been separated since December and on the way to divorce court. When I first told his mom a few weeks ago about my fear that he would have the boys around OW, her response was that he is entitled to introduce them to someone he is dating! Seriously?! I yelled at her that he CAN'T date because we are still MARRIED. He is going to tell them that I am being crazy and unreasonable for stopping his visitation and that I am using the kids as a weapon. I know in the end they are going to side with him because he is their blood, but I was exposing to try to get them to influence him to snap out of it. Thoughts?

Personally, I am in favor of the email and maybe a follow up call. The reason being that your SIL can forward your email to other family members. And I would encourage her to do that very thing.

Okay, but now my problem is that I went into WAY too much detail in the email and it is something like 6 pages long (as a Word document)! I am trying to figure out how to edit it down to not be so overwhelming.

A good old voice activated recorder would be nice to carry around if your WH attempts to speak with you.

It will help you keep an even keel and document any statements he makes towards you.

Hopefully you won't hear from him.

Also, I'm telling you right now, even if I ask her, she will NOT forward the email to anyone. The whole family is too passive. I've talked to his mother three times in the past month and she still has not confronted him! They are all so uncomfortable and embarrassed by what he has done and is doing, they would rather pretend it isn't happening, which is easy for them to do since they live 100 to 1,500 miles away.

Cut it back to about 3 paragraphs before you send it.

You never know. It might come up in conversation and the SIL could pass the email along.

I'm trying! I'm just sooooo wordy.

Quit dat!!

Believe me, I know. I've known her for 24 years, too. There won't be any conversations for it to come up in.

Are you working on whittling that letter down to 3 paragraphs???

Yes! It's a LOT of whittling. I'll post it here when I get it down.

If you post it, there are some great editors here that can help you (not me!)

Here is the second (shorter) draft of my exposure letter to his sister. A little background: First, when my BIL confronted him about his first affair (the only person who did), WH fed him a BS story that it was a one-night stand and that our marriage was terrible for a long time and BIL bought it and told me to give up and move on. Nice. They do not know we have tried to reconcile and other than his mom, they do not know about this new OW. Also, his sister's first husband cheated on her for years before she finally divorced him and BIL's father was a serial cheater on his mother (both his parent's are deceased now).

Dear SIL ~

WH and I have been trying to reconcile since the first week of January when he came to me talking about his willingness to try to work things out and I agreed. Throughout January, February and March, we spent nearly every day together in this effort. We went on dates every single weekend (our babysitter must have thought she won the lottery). Although he still had that apartment and still travels often for work, he slept at least half of the nights each week at our house with me and told me he loves me.

I know he told BIL that the first girl he had an affair with (her name) was a one-time fling and is �unimportant,� however, I�ve learned that they have remained in constant contact ever since their affair started the second week of November. Behind my back, he spends hours texting her and on the phone with her.

On April 2, he began a second affair with [second OW], hooking up with her at a bar here in [our town]. When I discovered that he was sexually involved with this woman, I broke contact with him on the evening of Monday, April 11. He drove straight to her house to spend the night. That weekend he claimed he couldn�t have our boys for an overnight visitation so that he could spend the weekend sleeping at her house. And he has continued this ever since.

On Wednesday, May 11, he started exposing DS5 and DS3 to this woman and their adulterous affair directly. This shows a complete lack of judgment, no concern for their well-being and is harmful to them. We are still married. He has only been out of our house completely for a month; the boys have barely had time to process what is going on and adjust to the situation. Their reactions to this are disturbing and I am now seeking help for them.

I�m telling you this out of respect for what you and BIL�s mom have both been through, like me, because I know that before he parades this relationship before you as something other than what it is, that you and your family would want to know the truth. I am also asking for your help. I still love WH. I believe DS5 and DS3 deserve a loving, intact family. If you love WH, me, DS5 and DS3, I ask that you confront him with your opinion. Please use your influence to encourage him to end his affairs. Please ask him to get help for his anxiety and depression so that DS5 and DS3 can trust him and depend on him to safeguard their well-being. Right now, this is not about him or about me. I have known about his newest affair almost since it started and no matter how hurt and disrespected I may have felt because of his adultery, I have said nothing and have allowed him the freedom to live his life and make his own choices while I have only asked him for the same so I could try to detach and move on. However, when he threatens the well-being of my children, their emotional security, sense of stability and sense of right and wrong, then I have to step in.

Thank you for any help or support you are willing to give.

Love,
Hyacinth


Opinions?

I think that is perfect except that I would ADD NAMES. They need to know the names of the OW.

That was clear and concise and even a Texan could get the point!

In the real email I have names. I just took them out to post here.

Sounds good. I'd tweak that last paragraph a bit, but either way gets the point across:

I love it, Northwood!! The only change I would make is to remove that word "confront." That is a dirty word to a conflict avoider. If she says something like "can you use your influence to persuade him...." it is not so scary to a CA.

Agreed, ML.

Although, if I "had my druthers" his relatives would go completely gonzo on the guy.

Well, I have my kids and my IM sent him the email saying "I�m sorry that I have to cancel your visit until we come to an agreement. Exposing DS5 and DS3 to your adulterous affair shows a complete lack of judgment, no concern for their well-being and is harmful to them."

She is still stuck at work in a big meeting, but texted me to say he responded and said he is livid and wants an immediate response from me. Here's where I KNOW I did what I shouldn't have done, so go ahead and 2x4 me. She isn't able to edit the email right now due to work. I was worried that he was thinking of calling the police (I think I mentioned he's in a line of work where they would cooperate with him even if he wasn't completely in the right). She stressed that he wanted an IMMEDIATE response, so I told her to forward the entire email to me. So I've read it.

He's totally irrational, ignoring entirely the issue of OW, claiming I did it with this timing because he's going out of town for a week, threatening to get a lawyer, etc.

Should I respond? And how should I respond? Should I post it here for you to dissect and tell me what to do?

Again, I KNOW I shouldn't have had her send it, but in his line of work we were both scared at what he might do.

This was my email to him. I know I'm not supposed to address him directly, but it was simpler this way and anyway I'm not worried about protecting him.

I�m sorry to cancel at the last minute, but there was absolutely no one who was supportive of me meeting with you. Continuing to have no direct contact with you is safer and healthier for me.

In addition, I�m truly sorry that I have to cancel your visit until we come to an agreement. Exposing DS5 and DS3 to your adulterous affair shows a complete lack of judgment, no concern for their well-being and is harmful to them. Everyone � my family, your family and our friends � supports me in this.

I think right now you are probably too angry for us to resolve anything, but I fear you are missing the point. This is not about you or about me. I have known about your newest affair almost since it started and no matter how hurt and disrespected I may have felt because of your adultery, I have said nothing and have allowed you the freedom to live your life and make your own choices. However, when you threaten the well-being of my children, their emotional security, sense of stability and sense of right and wrong, then I have to step in.

I would like it if we can quickly come to an agreement regarding custody issues between the two of us, rationally and without animosity. I think it�s best for the boys if you can resume visits as soon as possible. They miss you very much and need their father participating in their lives in a positive way. We can try to do this through email, but if you feel otherwise, I understand. If we can�t do this on our own, then it is probably time to involve third parties to help us resolve this. As I said yesterday, settling these issues between ourselves will save us time, money and inconvenience and I would like to believe that we agree in most ways on what is best for DS5 and DS3. However we have to do it, we need to settle these issues in the way that is healthiest and most constructive for everyone involved.

Don't respond unless you want to TEACH him that bully tactics work. Throw the letter away.

Can I post you what he wrote?

Take his name out then post it, you will get a better response once we can understand what he says.

Are you kidding me? You sent him that? You sent him a letter telling him you would not have contact with him and then you tell him in the last paragraph that you will have contact with him??

Is this a joke?

If you are not serious about Plan B, then just abandon it, H. What you are doing here is what Dr Harley calls "PLAN C", for compromise, which is the most likely to lead to divorce. As far as I am concerned, you have just emboldened a bully and demonstrated to him that you have no credibility and are not serious.

And that is ok. It is your life and your Plan. But why even keep up the pretense?

I wouldn't respond. IM can tell him she passed on the pertinent message.

If the police are called....what are they going to do? If they come....be calm, polite and matter of fact. Deal with it if they come.

It will make it more public that he is a wayward. More exposure. Yippee!

Now, stop allowing IM to pass on the tantrums and extra verbage. It does you no good and actually invites WH to escalate in hostility. If you are not calm and decide to be reactive, it will make it messier.

Deal with things as you go. Respond vs react ....

be still

breathe.

And do not be intimidated by him , he is angry because he can't get his own way. Hold the line

too late for that.

Here was his email to me:

That was an entire email about nothing. You are talking out both sides of your mouth, telling me that the boys miss me and want to see me, but that I can't see them; telling me that we need to work this out as soon as possible, but cancelling a meeting with me. Please explain to me how we are supposed to get this worked out if you won't meet with me and won't even talk to me? You get whatever [our IM] deems is appropriate based on your request to her, which will probably include none of this message. The opinions of your family, my family, and our friends, who are receiving your rationing of propaganda, are entirely irrelevant to my visitation with my children. It is not always about you, Hyacinth.

You have now violated our custody agreement, unofficial though it may be. You have spent the last five months sandbagging me with [our tenant in the rental house he's been wanting to move into but who has dragged her feet because her first husband did this to her]. You have attempted to hold me captive since this began by taking things like my house key, my truck key, my birth certificate and my passport, and refusing to return them. I don't really give a f--- about any of my possessions, and I don't really give a f--- about money. But you have no right to keep me from my children. Up until this point I have danced to your tune. But it has now become unreasonable. You tell me that we are going to work this out; how, when it sometimes takes you a week (and a reminder from me) to respond to my e-mails? You send me a message, and I respond within a few hours, or immediately if there is something time sensitive. I send you messages and I get responses days later, leaving me to wonder if you ever got it. I will not live like this.

You know you have me in a bad position because I am going to be gone for the next week. That means I will go two weeks without seeing them. So, start working it out. What is your suggestion? And I want responses soon. You have to realize that, as it stands right this minute, there is nothing for me to gain by not immediately going to a lawyer. The only reason I am not is because it is now too late today, and I will be in California all week next week. Don't think I don't appreciate your timing.

I do not say this even remotely as a threat; I am just stating a fact: if this isn't worked out immediately (and I'm not talking as in you decide to email me next week some time), then when I come back I am contacting a lawyer and we can let the court work it out. It will cost us a bunch of money, it will be a much less desirable situation, and neither of us will like the result, I can guarantee you that. But you leave me no choice. You are using the only thing I give a damn about to put pressure on me. There is absolutely no benefit to me sitting here and taking it. I have no money, and now no contact with my children; explain to me how it could get worse? The carrot and the stick only work if used together. A course of all stick loses its effectiveness because eventually the donkey realizes that he has nothing to lose.

I hope to hear from you very soon. Like immediately

Well, was that email you posted your response to his email or something you sent earlier?

If you haven't responded, then don't. Bullies like that, so don't play that game.

I get what you're saying, but we need a custody agreement. So what should I do?

This is a disaster. And for absolutely no good reason.

That was the email I sent telling him the meeting was canceled. Not a response to anything.

STOP contacting him. Stop responding to him. Period. If he tries to contact you directly again, ask your IM to contact him and tell him that all communication needs to go through her.

Just saw your post with his email.

I'd strongly avoid the urge to tell him to go eff himself and NOT RESPOND AT ALL!!!

Let the little boy run to an attorney. Maybe it'll get him to crap or get off the pot.

He's just mad because you are calling the shots and he isn't used to that. Tough.

I agree about doing nothing.
Zip

This is where the train went off the tracks. Just because your bully husband is "mad" and "demands" an immediate response, does not mean he gets it. Your IM should have NEVER reacted to that. There was absolutely no reason to respond and every reason NOT to respond.

So totally ignore him? And not let him see his kids?

I am prepared to do that. I have an appointment with another lawyer next week while he is gone. However, my bet is that the lawyer is going to tell me I have to let him see the kids and since we have no custody agreement, he is going to shack them up with OW, at this point just to spite me. I legally CANNOT deny him access to his kids, and if he doesn't want to agree to keep OW out of their life, there's nothing I can do about it.

Should she even tell him she told me any of that information at all?

Better still as he claims he has no money how does he intend to pay for the attorney, what is done is done , take it as a learning.

Next time hunker down .

I discovered he just took out a $5,000 personal loan. So he CAN afford an attorney. I'm the one who can't.

I have to apologize to you. I knew when I told her to forward it to me that I shouldn't ask her and she shouldn't do it, but I panicked and I did it anyway. I am trying to learn to give up control here and stop relying on my poor judgment, listen to what you all have to say, and follow your advice.

You can include a clause that your children are not to be with the OW , he will challenge it, you hold out for it, you are not denying him his children you are denying the OW access to your family. A big difference.

The lawyer works for you so he formalises the words to your requirements.

Do not withhold your kids from him. Have the IM send him a message that they are not to be exposed to his affair. If he can't promise that, then you are not letting the kids around him. If he will agree to not expose them to the OW he can see them.

And you tell that damn attorney that your kids are NOT to be around the OW and she NEEDS TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN. You see, the attorney works for YOU, not the other way around. Attorneys will typically take the easiest, softest route because they want their job to be easy. They will ALWAYS advocate the path of least resistance because they don't give a ratsass about your kids and they don't care about your marriage.

Your IM should have told you NONE of this today. None of it.

The best divorce firm in the city told me that I can't get this included if he fights it.

Can you take a credit card out in his name?

No she shouldn't tell him she told you the info.
Have her practice saying "I am only passing pertinent facts. Thank you for sharing."
Then, she should only pass those facts. whatever is happening (either with kids schedules or health or financial issues).

I will let others reply on the kid issue. (I have kids but haven't had this situation)

Then find someone more talented. This is a COMMON inclusion in divorce papers around here. Most lawyers don't WANT to do it because they are lazy. You have to force them.

Can you take a credit card out in his name? [/quote]

Nope. Before he took out the loan, I discovered he had applied for another credit card and was denied because he has too much debt.

Of course he will fight it but somewhere down the line he is going to have to compromise, he gets to see the children when he agrees not to expose them to the OW. When you do see the attorney start high, full custody then work down.

sobbing with relief.... I am relieved you recognize this, because - naturally - you are going to be emotional about this. This is where an IM and the board members can help you avoid all these pratfalls. Plan B is really very easy and calm if you do it right.

So just reiterate that "Your visitation is canceled until we come to an agreement that you will not continue to expose our children to OW (or any OW). Exposing DS5 and DS3 to your adulterous affair shows a complete lack of judgment, no concern for their well-being and is harmful to them. If you are willing to sign an agreement to that effect, you may resume visitation."?

Should anything else be added?

I was NOT exaggerating when I said they are the best there is. (So good it turns out I probably can't afford them.)

Melodylane has a good message to WH from the previous page.

'Have the IM send him a message that

they are not to be exposed to his affair. If he can't promise that, then you are not letting the kids around him. If he will agree to not expose them to the OW he can see them.'

A good attorney would use good negotiation skills to get this included. Many have done it here.

There needs to be some sharp words placed in there too, showing he has defrauded you financially and that he has placed the financial situation of you and the kids in a dire situation due to his secret loans, life and because of him USING FAMILY MONEY AND LOANS TO PAY FOR AN AFFAIR.

YOU go for the jugular. Nothing less than full custody, full child support, and spousal support.

Ask for the moon. Meanwhile if you can get an investigator, dig up dirt on the posow. Odds are, she's done something horrible in her past and some skeletons need to come to light, which would ENSURE that she will not be allowed around the kids.

And of course many many states consider normal legalese language to be included in a divorce that "no overnight visitor of opposite sex is allowed in custodial home unless they are family". This is to discourage the thousands of skanky cheaters out there and to try to protect their innocent kids from their shameful actions which HARM CHILDREN.

I do agree that it's worth a shot. Especially because I can't see him getting any support from any anyone on this because it's unreasonable to expect. As one of my best friends said yesterday, someone needs to ask him to consider "Is anyone who was in your camp on November 6 (the day he left for Vegas) still in your camp today?"

Will this be sent by the IM? This needs to come from her. No more messages from you. Something like "hyacinth has advised that she will permit visitation as long as the kids are not exposed to your mistress. If you can assure this, then she will arrange visitation."

I will fight for her not to have access, but I can guarantee she has NO skeletons that would keep her from being near my kids (other than being a tramp). She does the same thing my husband does for a living and they have to be squeaky clean to do it (except for sex, obviously).

Are you ok, Hyacinth?

Yes, it will be send from the IM so I will have her word it in the third person.

In what sense?

This is too hard to watch.

Does your IM filter the emails you send to your WH as well?

Can you PLEASE ask her to contact either ML or myself for help. Also, before you do ANYTHING in regards to your marriage and your WH, post about it here FIRST. Let some people advise you(preferably a few vets), and then make an informed decision based on MB.

PLAN B

Yes.

This was a train wreck because this all came to a head while my IM was essentially out of pocket for two days due to a huge meeting at work. So I let it get out of control.

I will have her send that exact statement if that is what should be sent. (Can I add "or your affair in any way" after the word mistress?). Everyone in agreement?

This kind of crap is very traumatic for a BS. Are you ok?

And how exactly is he going to assure this? In writing? Because he is a crazy liar.

Sounds good!

You have no way to assure this. Even getting it in writing is no assurance. But you will know when your boy comes home what has happened. Does your boy have a cell phone?

Have you explained the affair to him so he is not in a state of confusion?

I am in therapy and I am medicated ;), but it's still hard seeing 24 years of my life plus my whole future crumble because the person who is supposed to love and protect me the most in the world is now the person who hurts me the most.

But you all get that.

I am inclined to think you drag it out , change the words to includes something like sign a legal agreement.

Your husband cannot be trusted , he will agree and break the agreement within minutes of having the children.

It is highly unlikely a legal document can be obtained via an attorney today. Thus no visitation, you cannot trust him.

H, another reason to tell your son is so that he can lodge his own objection if your H tries to trot out that ho. Your son can express his own displeasure about being around that bad woman.

Refresh my memory, did you expose to her family?

I tried to discuss it with him today, but he became hysterical. He seemed very confused and then wouldn't stop crying -- sobbing, really -- but when I tried to get him to tell me why specifically, he kept saying "nothing." (And then started yelling it because I kept pressing.) I suggested "Are you angry? Are you sad? Are you scared?" But he kept saying no. The best I could get from him is that he agreed that he had "bad feelings inside" but said he didn't want to talk about them with me or anyone else. And this freaks me out not merely because he's hurting, but because THIS IS TOTALLY LIKE HIS DAD.

What should I say to him? (I'm calling a counselor for him on Monday.)

I have not exposed to her family yet. Her sister is a lawyer here in town, so I have to admit I'm a little freaked about that. Also, in her line of work, she is in a position to kind of harass me. Even if she is smart enough not to harass me herself, she can have her coworkers/friends harass me for her.

Hyacinth, does your son know that he can say whatever he is feeling without reprecussion? Maybe reassure him of this? It sounds like he is bottling his feelings...

I could just cry.

He IS bottling his feelings, but I think he feels conflicted about his dad. I think he feels that thinking or feeling bad things about his dad is wrong, because he loves him.

I did.

There is nothing they can do to you for exposing the affair. The truth is a defense. And you better do this, Hyacinth. Unless you want that ho sitting up front at your son's wedding some day.

I did tell DS5 that she was a bad woman and that his dad shouldn't be friends with her. And that she should not be around DS. I explained that she was doing things that were hurting mommy and that daddy should know that, but he is very unhappy and is making a mistake.

H, keep trying to talk to him. I remember the confusion I felt when I was a kid and my dad took me around his mistresses. Your son KNOWS this is wrong.

I plan to.

That is good, H. And hopefully he will come to you and talk to you.

Can I just say that although my IM is STILL stick in that meeting, I brought my kids to her house so WH couldn't find me in case he went nuts (she and her H just moved and WH doesn't know where their new house is). She and her H do not have any kids (and don't want them), but for the last -- hour? How long have we been here? -- her H has been entertaining my 2 little boys in his not-childproofed house with no toys. They have been awesome to me (even if we still need to work on the filtering thing).

Okay, so to double check, I am having my IM send this statement: Hyacinth has advised me that she will permit visitation as long as the boys are not exposed to your mistress or your affair in any way. If you can assure this, then she will arrange visitation.

And then I will have her contact ML and Scotty (whose email addys I have) to get better instructions regarding filtering. (This weekend hopefully.)

Sounds great!! And big hugs to your IM's H. That is very kind of him!

I am glad that are a great support to you. That's why I want to help her out, so she can feel good about helping you in this way as well. She is the backbone for your Plan B. Without an IM, you wouldn't have a Plan B. She is important to you, and your family.

Let IM know that it is a very nice thing she has chosen to do for you and one not everyone volunteers for. She is a good egg.

They have been amazingly supportive. I would be lost without them.

Hyacinth, make a mental note to expose to this woman's family when the dust settles a bit after today's mess.

I did already start drafting a letter.

When is your H leaving for his trip? That might be a good time to expose to her family.

He's leaving either Sunday night or Monday morning.

**snort** That would be a great time to expose!! He will be out of town and she will calling him with her MELT DOWN. And you will be in Plan B and won't hear a peep!

Did you tie up all those loose ends so that he can't get through to you re phone numbers and email? It would be good to make sure that's taken care of before you expose. I worry about you staying DARK...

Short update. Last night after the kids and I left my IM's house to come home, she called me and said she wanted me to know she had gotten another email response, but that she was picking through it to see if there was anything I needed to know. (This would be in response to her second email to him that merely stated: Hyacinth has advised me that she will permit visitation as long as the boys are not exposed to your mistress or your affair in any way. If you can assure this, then she will arrange visitation.) Then she called me back later and said there was nothing new, nothing I needed to know except that he said he is willing to come to a custody arrangement through her. However, she also said he still has not acknowledged the issue at hand, but keeps making it about everything else. I have no plans to respond and either 1) he will email her again when he gets frustrated that we are not moving forward with arrangements or 2) he'll go to an attorney when he gets back from his trip. If he does email her and ask about making a new custody agreement, I'm just going to have her send the EXACT SAME STATEMENT that she already sent (the one I quoted above). I can't decide if he's so foggy he really doesn't get it or if he's just choosing to ignore it. He should know me well enough to know I'm not going to give up or back down. My dad said to me on the phone the other day, "It's like he really hasn't been paying attention for the last 24 years..."

Also, I had another talk with DS5 about what's going on, because he had started to pack a bag for his dad's before this all started and today I had him unpack it. He said "I thought we were going to visit daddy?" so I sat down with him and reminded him of our talk about the bad woman who was hurting mommy. Then I told him that until daddy promised that she wouldn't be around him and his brother at all, they wouldn't be able to be with daddy. He was a little upset and cried because he said "I think that's going to be a LONG TIME!" (?!?!?!?!) I told him I didn't think so, that daddy loved him very much and would want to keep him and his brother safe and so he would probably promise to keep her away. (Except I don't know what is going to happen, but I at least wanted to reassure him that he is loved.)

You are doing great, Hyacinth.

Second that, hold the line.

Everybody was worried he would show up at my son's soccer games this morning, if not to confront me then just to see the kids, but he didn't. I think I am the only person who didn't expect him to. I mean, he knows that most of our friends and half the town would be there and that he has almost no support at all, so he couldn't be sure of the reception he would get. I kept getting text messages checking on me asking "Is here there?" I can't wait until the drama of this situation fades. I had another talk with one of my best friends about not talking to me about him, trying to give me updates, etc. She's always trying to "keep me posted" about what she hears. I think she gets it now.

I got the name of another attorney today. This one handled a close friend's divorce and she described him as "aggressive but not overly arrogant." I'm going to call him on Monday.

Go for full custody , fight fight and fight some more. There is only one prize , your children's well being, you will never regret it and when your children are older they will thank you

He gets it, but doesn't want to get it.

Get it?

My IM went through his email from last night again (she said yesterday was so stressful that everything had started to run together plus she had had a couple of glasses of wine when it came through). She said there were some things in it about him wanting to see his kids before he goes away and asking to "come up with something mutually acceptable" but that I do not have the right to make demands."

I had her send the exact same response as yesterday like I said I would. Now he has asked her if it was an email glitch or if she resent it.

I would like her to respond something like "Hyacinth has advised me that her terms are the same." But with a less loaded word than terms/demands/conditions. Any ideas?

She sent "That was the same statement because Hyacinth has advised me that her response is the same."

His response was "OK."

I have a question. What about in addition to exposing OW this week while he is away, first I contact her and ask her to stay away from my children (and my husband, but at the least my children)? I say "first" so that she is not livid with me yet.

And if I do that, HOW should I do it (phone, FB message -- I don't have her email address -- or in person)? WHAT should I say?

Any suggestions on confronting the OW?

I was just told she posted a picture of herself with my husband on Facebook.

I'm writing my Facebook exposure letter. I could use some help. Also, I now have her email address because when she posted the picture, through some glitch it showed up as part of the picture.

Here's the FB exposure letter:

I know she and he are telling people we have been separated since December since he has had that apartment, so it's not an affair, it's "dating."

I can't figure out a way to say he and I were NOT really separated, that he started sleeping with her while he was still sleeping with me, without sounding sordid or being TMI.

I am include to leave it however if you wish to add a sentence say something like :

Unfortunately I subsequently found out that my husband , XXX, was exposing me to the risk of STD's as he was sexualy active with both myself and OW over the same time period.

Wait for the vets to chime in

You mentioning the start date of the affair will soon destroy the myth of dating, people are not stupid they will know one and one equals two.

You don't need to explain that IMO. It is WRONG to be dating/sleeping with a man who is still married, no matter what!

What people think or say isn't really what makes exposure effective (though it helps!) but it's just having it out in the open that it is an affair and not a normal dating relationship (and knowing that this is under scrutiny) helps to start crumbling the fantasy of the A...

The problem is the first time I kicked him out was mid-December and people knew we "separated" then, so it seems like it's been 5 months. When for real, he and I were barely separated. He was at my house playing house every day and most nights.

Around here, people will think "Well, it's been a while that they've been separated and so it's okay for him to start dating if they're getting divorced." I AM NOT KIDDING. This goes on all the time when people are separated. And other people are okay with it. It's even legal.

Here's my first draft:

Dear friends and family of Trashy McTrasherson:

It is with great regret that I send this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Trashy McTrasherson is having an extramarital affair with my husband, [WH]. We have been married for 18 years and have 2 heartbroken children. Ms. McTrasherson and my husband have been having this affair since at least the beginning of April, according to the evidence. I�m telling you this out of respect because I know that before they parade this relationship before you as something other than what it is, you would want to know the truth. I believe they may be claiming that he and I have been separated for some time, but we were working on our marriage. Neither of us has filed for divorce. Their relationship was begun in secret, while he and I were still spending most of our days and nights living as man and wife. THIS IS WHERE I NEED HELP. I WANT IT TO SOUND LIKE HE AND I WERE DOING MORE THAN JUST HAVING SEX AND MAKE THE POINT THAT WE ARE STILL FREAKING MARRIED!!! HOW DOES THAT SOUND?

I am asking for your help. I still love my husband. I believe my children deserve a loving, intact family. I would ask that you use your influence with her to persuade her to leave my husband alone. In addition, Ms. McTrasherson and my husband have been exposing my young children, ages 3 and 5, to their adulterous affair. Please ask her to keep her distance from my children, as their father and I have only really been separated a few short weeks, since I discovered this inappropriate relationship; my children are confused and upset and have not adjusted to the new situation. It is harmful for them to be exposed to such immorality and deception.

I would be happy to answer questions or provide evidence to anyone who asks. I would appreciate it if someone would notify her parents, her family and anyone else who may be of support or assistance. They may call me at [my home phone number].

Thank you,
Hyacinth the Betrayed

According to your profile the PA occurred in October last year where does April come into it unless it is April 2010. If it is 2010 then say so.

That was his first PA with his first OW who he met on a business trip and who lives 2,000 miles away so it continued as only an EA. Then this April he started a PA with a local woman here, a coworker of his, while he and I were supposedly working on things, but after he had moved out (although he was at our house every day and half the nights). So it is only since the beginning of April for this woman.

I changed my signature so hopefully it's more clear

I would keep it simple and state your case factually without outright attacking their facebook 'friend's character. They will know the score. She may try to convince them otherwise and they can be aware she is an OW.

Yes, I thought the same thing about attacking her character, that is was probably a bad move because it would lose me sympathy and I'd just come off as wanting revenge.

However, I think you are missing the point I am trying to make in the first paragraph about explaining to people we were still together when this started. They are already appearing together in public and people think they are merely dating and that he and I have been totally separated since December and headed for divorce (which is absolutely not true), because that is how he is presenting this. If I send this letter out without refuting that, he is going to say I am just a crazy b-tch who doesn't know how to let go. I have seen other men he works with do the EXACT SAME THING (very male-centered profession and the core of our social group comes from his job). No one will take me seriously or care about what they are doing. I AM NOT SPECULATING ABOUT THIS; I KNOW IT FOR A FACT. And then sending this letter would be pointless, in fact it would actually be damaging to me because people would start to sympathize with him. Another one of his coworkers did a similar thing two or three years ago and I am one of the people who believed the man's story, because she did things like this that made her come off to everyone as just crazy. People just wanted her to settle down and leave him alone. I only now have found out the truth. And they are now divorced.

Next question. There is a couple who used to be our friends. (WH and I were both in their wedding seven years ago.) OW is best friends with the wife, who has been trying to do damage control with the rest of our group of friends by saying she disapproves like everyone else and now OW is mad at her, etc. I have not ever believed it. I know what kind of person she is and I really believe she had something to do with this. Believe me when I say she and her H know the true score about WH and I. They've spent the last 6 months pumping me for information in the guise of giving me support and I've now found out they were arranging all kind of get-togethers that included OW and WH. And now she and her H are in this picture with WH and OW that was posted on Facebook. And it's not a candid shot; they were all standing together posing for it. They used to be a core part of our circle of friends, but this has split us all -- well, not down the middle since 98% of people side with me -- but they are one of two couples who sided with WH because the wives were friends with OW. Normally, they would fall into the category of people who should get the exposure letter (they are both "friends" of WH and I and they are on OW's Facebook friends list, too). Should I bother to include them in the people I send the letter to? Since they so clearly support this, it doesn't seem to make sense to me. But I come to you all as the experts.

My thoughts are that you mention towards the second half of the letter, the part about the children, that you only recently seperated and that should suffice on the timeline of the marriage being worked on as affairs begin.

I would send the message to the people you suspect are propping the affair.

You can only control what you do and say......you can not demand others rally for you. You ask, you don't demand and later you remember who supported you and who did not. If your marriage ever recovers you have taken notes who is going to be part of your circle, who not.

YK?

And also, people are able to call you to get more info as you stated to them.

Hyacinth, as far as sending out the messages to people because they will think that you are a mean and crazy wife, WHO CARES? Just because MOST of society thinks that it is okay to "date" while still married, people understand that it is NOT. You used to be one of those people, now, I hope that MB has changed your mind.

It doesn't matter if someone has been separated for 5 minutes, or 5 years. It is wrong to date while still married, PERIOD. It is still adultery. Do we know people who have done it in the past? Sure. Did we condemn them then? No. What do you believe now?

Now, as far as contacting OW, I would suggest that you don't. You will gain NOTHING from that. Also, after this exposure, you are to hear NOTHING about her as well. STAY OUT OF THE DRAMA.

And, could you PLEASE ask your IM to contact me? I would like to give her a few pointers for filtering out emails and how she deals with you. I don't want to suggest a new IM for you, so let's try to make this one work for you, k?

Yes, send this couple the exposure letter as well. Remember, you are asking for HELP from those who are willing to help try to keep a family together.

When/if they respond unkindly, IGNORE THEM or send a very generic response back. Do not lower yourself and respond in kind.

Mark out everything about separation and don't muddy the waters. An affair is an affair. Married is married. It doesn't matter if he was standing on his head on planet Mars and singing God Bless Texas, an affair is an affair. If someone sends you a letter and asks about separation, THEN you can respond that you were partially separated but still living as man and wife as recently as April.

Even so, married is married, DESPITE what some crapwit thinks. Don't acknowledge that nonsense by taking that premise seriously. Good grief, we have betrayed husbands who show up on this forum when their silly wayward wives move into the back bedroom and pronounce they are "separated." I am sorry, but that is retarded.

Being separated is not a justification to commit adultery.

Thats hilarious!! I just read Northwoods post and he marked out the EXACT SAME sentences I did!!

Yeah, why go into a lot of detail about whether you were "really" separated, "kind of" separated or whatever.

Just say you're married and don't get into a bunch of Bill Clinton meaning of "is" is stuff.

I've read your edits and I think I see what you mean, so I'll make some changes to the letter. I'm just kind of in overload right now.

Yesterday was a horrible day because of that Facebook photo, which apparently became a huge deal. People were talking about it. People were calling me and texting me and telling me stuff. I was telling them not to(I actually had to text one of my best friends "STOP!" so she would get it), but not before I had already heard or read some of it that made me physically ill, like about all the POSITIVE comments by people about the picture and their relationship. Then I one of my best friends called and confronted the wife of that other couple in the picture (who used to be my friends, but are enabling this relationship). She did this on her own, because they all go to the same church and she is livid because their behavior is so hypocritical. It seemed no matter what I did, I couldn't get away from it and it stirred everything up for me. I'm still reeling from it all. The end of last week was terrible because of the thing with my kids (which is still a conflict and only on hiatus because he's out of town) and now this (which believe was retaliation for him losing visitation, due to some of the circumstances around it, but I won't go into that all unless someone wants me to). I haven't been able to eat in almost a week.

I just want it to stop. I want him to leave me alone. I am NOT the one who is responsible for his unhappiness, but he keeps trying to take it out on me. None of this makes any sense to me; if he doesn't want to be with me, it is what it is. But then why punish me for the same?

I need to clarify that I did not think it was okay for him to date. What I believed were his stories that she was a crazy, out-of-control b-tch who was only out for revenge against him.

I met with two more lawyers this week. On Wednesday, I met with a man who handled my close friend's divorce. She had described him as "aggressive, but not overly arrogant like some are." I liked him a lot. (And not just because he told me I was doing everything right. ) He told me even though technically there are no legal grounds for keeping OW away from my kids, we could definitely do it. He was very confident about everything. He said that right now it seemed to make sense just to wait and just see what happens with everything, which is kind of where I am mentally and emotionally, so I was glad he said that. He's in the next large town over (about 30-40 min away) and it's also in a different county, so that is a downside.

I met with a woman yesterday who practices in my own town. She focused a lot more on the finances of our situation (and less on custody, which she said right now was sort of a non-issue until WH makes a move), which like I said are complicated and potentially bad. Right now, WH is robbing Peter to pay Paul and it's going to come crashing down soon. She said that if he decides to stop giving me his entire paycheck to support our original household (he's trying to live off his supplemental income from his second job, but also took out a personal loan so I know it's not going well), that we may have to consider bankruptcy in order to get divorced. It hadn't even occurred to me and although I hate the idea, when she explained things it made sense. I do NOT want to do that. I won't be able to buy a house for me and my boys then. I like her common sense approach, but she seemed somehow less assertive and confident, especially when it came to dealing with my husband because of what he does for a living (like I said, very male dominated profession). She kept saying things about how the men in his profession tend to be very controlling, etc.

The only thing I heard from WH all week was that he texted my IM on Wednesday and asked when he could call to talk to the kids. He hasn't done this ONE SINGLE TIME since all of this started in November. He has gone at least two weeks without talking to them before. I don't know if this was him really missing them or him just trying to make a point with me that he was missing them or a combination of both. Either way, who cares? I told her to tell him to call the house phone (which we rarely use) not my cell phone. Then I showed DS5 how to answer. While they talked to their dad, I made no attempt to supervise or guide the conversation like I usually do when they are on the phone with someone. From the other room it sounded like ten minutes of confusion and chaos (there even seemed to be some wrestling between my boys at one point ). Then DS3 brought me the phone in his outstretched hand and I just hung it up.

WH told our tenant he is supposed to get back late tonight. She had told him she thought she'd be done moving by today, but said now she thinks she needs Saturday, too, and was going to text him that. She said she will give me the keys. I want to get in there and take pictures and maybe video, because the more she tells me about the house and how she basically didn't do any of the maintenance she was supposed to do, I really think it might not be safe for my boys to be there. Which will be another battle. I have a babysitter tomorrow afternoon for a hair appointment, so I am planning on going to the rental house afterwards to check it out while I still have the babysitter because I can't take the boys there. (She said even if she's not done moving at that time, I can come over then.) I want to get in and out before he finds out.

DS3's birthday party is Sunday and I invited WH's family (but not him obviously). Only the sister I am closest to can come with her daughter (10). I am not sure I will have the chance to talk to her while she is here, but I am going to try to get at least a few minutes alone with her because I would like to expose this newest affair face-to-face before I send her the email and she lives 100 miles away so this might be my only chance for a while.

Eleven more days of school left. I am in a pretty bad place mentally and emotionally right now, not a single thing seems to be going my way these days, and every single day at work is torture. Summer break is the light at the end of my tunnel, but intellectually I know it's not really going to change anything.

DONE.

Thanks for the suggestion. Obviously I am still not thinking clearly, because I usually wouldn't make that kind of mistake. Ugh.

Oh Hun, hang in there.

I don't know what else to say to you right now except give you some support.

There is one question I have though, about this new round of exposure. Did you do it all at once? Exposure should be done all at once, and when you are in Plan B, it's even more important so you can move on with your healing. Just a thought.

You're doing good. Just keep strong and stay dark.

When school is out, what kinds of fun things do you have planned with the kiddos?

THANKS!

Then should I wait to expose to SIL? Because I haven't done the FB exposure yet. It's just been a miserable, crazy week where I've gotten home late every night and have been exhausted and depressed. Because I've been so down again, thinking about him or this situation at all just makes me even more depressed and I've been avoiding thinking about it at all. I know that's not very productive, but it's the only way I've been able to function this week.

In terms of exposure for this newest A, my family knows, my MIL knows (but is 2,000 miles away and STILL hasn't confronted him, even by phone!) and our local friends all know (apparently though, the whole town knows and it talking about it now). I don't think any of our friends have confronted him, even though I have asked them. Most people seem to just want to "stay out of it." Nice friends, huh? It's the culture of this area. I do have a couple of friends that are planning to confront him, but they have to wait for him to get back to town.

This summer I'm planning on doing a TON of stuff to the house to get it ready to sell. And my BFF/IM and I are going to take the kiddos camping a lot (she's a teacher and off in the summer, too).

H, you are doing just GREAT! I am so proud of you for getting on board!! I just knew you could do it. I know you feel down today, but I promise you that if you stick with it like you are, that you will start feeling better soon. The longer you are away from his crap, the better you feel.

I would get your exposures done as soon as possible, especially to the OW's family so you can get this part done. You need to get this done so you can focus on staying dark and learning how to enjoy your life without your wayward husband.

You are doing great and are proactive and STANDING UP FOR YOUR KIDS AND MARRIAGE!

Def get the exposure done asap on posow's family. You need to do it and focus on being as dark as you can.

Praying for you, and yes, it IS hard doing plan B w/small kids, as I had to do that. You stick to your guns and you fire them when necessary!

You are an awesome mother bear taking care of her cubs! My hat is off to you Blessings for a peaceful weekend.

Yesterday I had a birthday party for DS3. SIL and her husband came, so I exposed this newest A to them (which required an update of what's gone on since the beginning of the year). They said they have had no communication with him in five months. BIL (who used to be his best friend; that's how he met SIL) said he received one text message from WH in the last five months and he just hit delete. SIL said a month or so ago she texted him and said something along the lines of "Haven't heard from you in months. How are you doing? I'm worried about you." and she said his response was "Please don't make this about you." So she has not contacted him since.

SIl said she would try to get in touch with him and tell him to leave the kids out of it. However, she is very passive just like my MIL, so I kind of doubt she does anything. BIL was still sticking to his opinion that he developed after one conversation with WH in December that WH and I BOTH were responsible for the downfall of our marriage (he's pretty much a selfish jerk who believes he's always right) but that WH was wrong to try to get out of it this way. Seriously. What a jerk. Anyway, he said he would say something to WH "if he got the chance." So, basically he's useless. They're all useless.

In other news, if you recall, WH is evicting the tenant who has been living in our old house for six years so that he can move in there. She's an acquaintance of ours and we had a deal that she would only pay rent that covered the mortgage and she would do all the maintenance. I'm sure you can see where this is going...

We have not even been in the house in a couple years. She is almost completely moved out and he is supposed to take possession this week. Yesterday she met me at the house and let me see the inside. O! M! G! It is almost condemnable. It's a 100 year old house. She clearly has done no maintenance at all in a couple of years. The furnace died and can't be fixed anymore. The air conditioning went out last summer. The kitchen appliances are all gone, because she said she's been having major electrical problems that destroyed them. She had to replace the hot water heater she said because the old one caught fire. The bathroom plumbing is leaking through the kitchen ceiling. And the entire house is FILTHY. I mean disgusting. She clearly hasn't cleaned in months (he originally told her to get out in December). Everything was covered in dust and grime. She has three dogs and four cats and there were animal feces and urine everywhere. I can't believe she was even willing to let me in there and then could look me in the face! There is no point in suing her because she is totally broke and has no assets.

There is ABSOLUTELY no way he can move in there. It's in Hazmat condition. She let me take pictures, so I have proof of how terrible the condition is case he thinks he's taking the kids there. Even once he gets it cleaned up (if that's even possible), I want it to be cleared by an inspector. Which he's going to again view as me trying to control him and tell him what to do, when it is really only about the kids. Ugh.

My IM got an email from WH today. Before he left on his business trip he said if we didn't come to a resolution about visitation, he was going to a lawyer the Monday he was back (today).

She wants help picking through and editing the email (which I assume means it's pretty bad). I'm setting her up an email account and will give her MelodyLane's and Scotland's email addresses which I already have. She did say the gist of it is that he will not agree with my proposal (not sure if that's her language or his). She also said he wants to know when she sends it to me (I assume so he knows when I receive his "threats.")

Let him see a lawyer.

Don't say that to IM but be thinking it.

Oh, I am not scared or upset about him seeing a lawyer. He's said that to her before and it has freaked her out, but I've said to her "Where does he see this as being headed?" Right now, it's just the waiting for the other shoe to drop that's killing me.

Well I'd love for this man to go before a judge to explain why the h*ll he has abandoned his family for a piece of skank that lives 2k miles away? The judge will love all the stupid reasons and spin..NOT!!!

Let him try. Let him. Him seeing a lawyer is like handing the wayward a shovel. Another shovel. So that way he'll dig the hole he is digging into 2x faster!!! Let him! It is a good way to kill the affair faster.

You see, when faced with all the legalities, how expensive divorce is, how they won't have custody, how the OW WILL BE SUBPOENAE'D (yes, if it comes to any court hearing you better do that! It will kill the affair so fast! OW hate this. Like water on the wicked witch o the west!)the affair WILL DIE!!! And legalities and making the waywards' life and affair COMPLICATED AND NOT FUN ANYMORE will solidify everything. When the ow sees that she's got a broke, no family, walkin' the block, om with a stinky urine soaked house, no kids, and has to herself TELL HER NASTY INDESCRETIONS IN FRONT OF HUNDREDS of people, she will rethink her life position (and the other positions posow twist themselves into...evil laugh!)

Be mean to the affair! MAKE it no fun, expensive, worse than going to a dentist to have ten root canals, make it EMBARASSING, and most of all, let the posow know she's gonna find herself IN COURT!!!!

Let the wayward to see a lawyer. When and if he does, you ramp things up like Lance Armstrong all juiced up with a needle, and you roll out your plan to ruin the affair and make him wish he had never ever strayed.

And make the other woman wish she were any other woman in the world BUT HERSELF. Make it THAT bad.

My IM is sending an email now. Can ML or Scotty please let me know when they reply so I can tell her to check her email (she has to go make dinner )? Thanks!

(Apparently there is a TON of stuff his lawyer told him in it. I am tempted for her to say "Yeah, well Hyacinth has talked to THREE lawyers and they all said... But I don't want to get into a p-ssing match with him. However, if he thinks I'm just going to do whatever HIS lawyer tells me to do, he's got another think coming.)

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES do you do what he/his stupid lawyer are requesting. Just go quiet. Then slam him with the truth from YOUR LAWYERS. He won't see it coming.

Like the movie (an old one but a very very good one), "Run Silent..Run Deep".

Do not be intimidated by any threats. When a wayward gets really desperate (like when their vile actions and secret double life are about to be exposed and they are about to lose $ to fund their skanky affair and the ow/om is about to be subpoenae'd to take the stand) they go crazy trying to make you think they have any remnant whatsoever of the upper hand.

It is the rantings of a desperate fool. So never believe it. Let your lovely IM's handle that for you, and you simply forward the email to YOUR ATTORNEYS. Tell them to go for his jugular. And then disengage. Again, making the affair so miserable, so poor, so un-fun is the goal besides 1)you getting sole custody 2)you getting as much cs and ss as you can and 3)you having peace of mind.

Hugs to you! You're doing great!

Got it and responded!

Thanks! I let her know and she said she would check her email.

Just answered a second email. Everything is just fine! Relax!

I'm trying.

(But I'm still stressing. If it weren't for my kids, he wouldn't have any way to push my buttons and he knows it.)

Look, there is nothing going on here except a whole load of hot air to see if he can bully himself back in control. He is testing you. Your sincere offer to make the kids available to him has been reiterated politely and respectfully. If he wants to see his children he knows what to do. Its real simple.

Yeah, that's pretty much what my lawyer told me. The kids are with me, I have always been their primary caregiver, they are in the family home, he's the one who left, etc. Since right now we have no legal custody agreement, if he wants to see them, he has to play ball or else go to court.

Question. We have that Google co-parenting calendar that we share which lists all his visitation, among other kid-related things. Should I go ahead and remove all his future visits for now to make a point? Or should I just ignore it and leave it be and not antagonize him?

Also, he is "supposed" to have a dinner visit on Wednesday. At least, that's the usual schedule. (It wasn't an issue last week because he was out of town.) I'm a little worried he will just go to daycare and pick them up before I can get to them. Should I worry about this and plan a strategy now? I hate to be caught off guard and not know what to do (especially because my laptop has been really uncooperative recently).

And thanks again!!!

Mel, are you Hya's IM? If so, I cannot describe how I respecct you for that. Your hair must be about 6 feet tall by now, lady. Thanks in general. You're a peach.

Hyacinth, you are in very good hands.

One strategy I did already put in place is that I asked our tenant to drop the key to the other house off at his office at noon on Wednesday. I'm hoping that the idea of getting into the house has him so worked up that he gets distracted from the idea of doing any cloak-and-dagger visitation grab. And then when he does go to the house, wow! That's going to be a reality check for him.

I say ignore it and let him make the effort...however...you are in better hands than mine.

God speed to you.

I would not remove anything from the calendar. If he picks up the kids from daycare and exposes them to the OW then I would not let that happen again. Maybe he will get the idea and this issue will be resolved.

Surfer, thanks for the vote of confidence but I am not her IM. Scotland and I are working with her IM, though.

How can you get a legal arrangement done so you don't have to worry about this every Wednesday? The stress won't be good for you.

I think that you should talk to the lawyer and find out if it will hurt your custody case if you keep your children away from OW.

Scotland, she has already discussed this with an attorney and she is just fine. She is not keeping her children away from him. She has made it very clear that they are available to him......just as long as they are not exposed to his affair. It is his choice.

I agree w/Mel. The kids are fine with seeing a dad, but NOT AN AFFAIR (and that would include the other woman skank).

It comes down to a choice between some skank and his kids. He can take his pick.

Amen! And we WANT HIM to have to agonize over this. Makes trouble for the affair. Also might make him have to have a come to Jesus moment too. (hopefully).

You want to make as much trouble for the affair. And you can do it from afar too! Again, all waywards DREAM of having this bizarre divorce scenario where they are "friends" with the bw/bh and that the bs accepts the affair partner and they all have sunday brunch together and the hoard of kids from the skankyho and your kids play croquet on the lawn together.

Butterflies, rainbows and unicorns are also scampering about too!

Did you know that's the goal of every wayward? THAT is their distorted goal. It's to be absolved of all guilt! To never have a nagging conscience. To delude themselves into thinking it was ok to be beyond selfish.

But even then, someday it will catch up with the wayward. They will begin secretly self-loathing themselves, and will hate their very own actions. I know this for a fact 100% as my xwh felt that way and could do nothing about it after our point of no return (when he married the wistress).

What gets me is that his visits with our boys are supposed to be about them seeing their dad. He is managing to make it all about himself. And he want to add someone to the mix that is just going to draw his focus away from them. Someone who I can just about guarantee won't be around in 6 months. (Unless he makes some classy, intelligent move like knocking her up.) This man has been through three women since November (including me). He could at least offer them a sense of security and stability in the midst of this mess he's made.

I wasn't implying that what Hyacinth was doing is wrong, I just wanted to make sure that she was covered legally. If you(Hyacinth) have already discussed this with your attorney, and you are in the clear, legally, I say stick to your guns. I only wish this option was available in my sitch.

You're doing great Hyacinth.

My IM just said his response to my response was "thanks."

And why would he want to teach your kids that wrong is right? That is the last thing they need right now. Your 5 year old is confused enough!

I've been reading through your whole thread, I can't finish tonight, but yeah I think this is what I am experiencing in Plan B too. I really related to a lot of your initial feelings of him having a ripe old good time with his new single life.

My husband did the same thing when I first went into Plan B. He was angry I was not letting him know what was going on with the boys. Like it was my responsibility. I refuse to help him be a parent. Hostility has stopped after he insisted I speak with him I just reiterated, I will talk to you if you want to preserve our marriage, if not you have said enough. No response through IM and somewhat cooperating. Now, he has not called our boys in over a week. He wants to be a dad only when he feels like it. So sad...

Today is WH's usual dinner visitation day with the kids. We are still in our stalemate. I am going to fly out of work and try to get to daycare to pick up the kids before he does in case he thinks he is going to just go get them and have his visit anyway. Somehow, I have a feeling his lawyer may have told him to do that, that he should just default to our previous arrangement and get the kids. I know if he can get them he will have them with OW just to stick it to me and prove his point that he is free to do whatever he wants, regardless of who is hurt by it.

I feel like WH is continually attacking me and punishing me for his unhappiness (which is neither my fault nor my responsibility). We are in this stalemate because I am concerned about my children, but from his point of view this isn't about that, it's a power struggle between him and me. He doesn't realize that I have given up trying to control or influence what he does with his own life. He sees me removing myself from the path of his destruction as a control issue. And he thinks this disagreement over what is best for the kids as me trying to tell him what to do, when he is totally free to make his own choices and do whatever he wants with his life without interference from me, he just can't drag my kids down into his crazy mess of self-destruction. I am so frustrated because I am trying to extricate myself from him and his mess and he keeps dragging me back in.

I have an appointment tonight with a children's therapist that my therapist recommended (someone in the same practice). She said she usually meets with the parents alone before she brings in the kids (or in my case: parent, singular). This morning DS5 was hanging on me again when I dropped him off at daycare telling me he wanted to stay with me today. This kills me because it is TOTALLY NOT HIM.

DS5 also asked me last night and again this morning when his daddy was going to promise not to have him around that bad lady so he can see him. My heart is breaking for him. He misses his dad so much. WH is putting himself, and frankly everything else (like satisfying his irrational anger at me), before his children.

In related news, our tenant is finally going to be out of our other house today. I told her about my concern that he would try to pick up my kids and she is going to send him a message this afternoon telling him she left the key on the kitchen counter and the back door unlocked. We are hoping he rushes right over there and then is so distracted by the condition of the house and seeing all his plans falling apart right before his eyes that I can get the kids to "safety" before he composes himself to do anything.

Hope everything will go smoothly today...hugs

Hope everything is going ok, hyacinth. Keep me posted!

My kids call her the bad lady too. Lol.

Yesterday I was able to get my kids from daycare just fine. (I don't think he even tried or would have tried to get them.) Then, my IM's husband met me because I needed to rent a car and have someone follow me to my mechanic's to get mine fixed.

Last night I also met with a child therapist who will start seeing my kids, DS5 at least, not sure about DS3 yet. I really liked her. She's the daughter of my own therapist, so I had assumed I would. I meet with her again next week to give her more background (because there's so! much! background!) and then she'll have her first appointment with DS5, probably toward the end of next week. He had another meltdown at daycare drop off yesterday, hanging on me and telling me he wanted to stay with me.

Our tenant was NOT out of the old house yesterday. Long story, but I think she finally is out this morning. I'm not sure when he's going to go over there, but my tenant said he was texting her things like "I have a truck loaded with my belongings and I have to move. A new tenant moves into my apartment next Monday. I can't wait any longer." He has NO idea that that house is not habitable. His big plan is about to crumble before his eyes! I don't know whether he will contact my IM or not, but the beauty of Plan B is I won't know and I don't care!

I want to make it clear that the only reasons why I care about our other house and his reaction to it at all is that:
1) He is continually "retaliating" against me for his own unhappiness, even though I am not at fault and not responsible to "fix" it, so I fear that he'll do something (not sure what) to get back at me for the condition of the house. Because somehow that will be my fault, irrational as that is.
And 2) I think he believes he's going to be able to take the kids there soon, believes that he will finally have a place where they can have their own rooms and beds. Hopefully, he realizes when he sees the house that it's not an option. I don't think he's being truthful with our ex-tenant about having to be out of his apartment, but if he is, he is now essentially homeless. I assume he will stay with OW (she has her own house), but he darn sure isn't taking my kids to her place if I can help it, so he will have nowhere to have them for visitation (which I will be sure to point out at a custody hearing).

All this time, basically since this all started, this other house has been like Shangri-la to him. He keeps believing if he can move in there he can straighten his life out, figure out what he wants and be happy. This plan of his is all going to fall apart in the first second of walking into that house and I have no idea what's going to happen next.

Okay, I'm freaking out here a little bit. I just got this email from my IM:

Hyacinth,
WH agrees with your terms. Please let me know where he can pick kids up this weekend. You will have them sat. for party and he will keep them until Tues. morning.

How do I know he won't have them around her? I DON'T TRUST HIM AND FOR GOOD REASON. And how will I know if he does? What's my recourse if he does? He could pick them up, drive straight to her house and stay there all weekend.

There's also been no mention whatsoever of the house or its condition yet. I want to ask him where he is planning on having the kids.

Listen carefully to this statement. It will be your raft in the sea of uncertainty

"Release control".


Yup, you can't be sure of anything he says or does. You can only control yourself.
You asked him to agree to the conditions and now, let's see.

If he doesn't the kids will let you know by what they say when they come back and you will deal with it then. You kids will look to you to say what is right. If they come back and say they were with OW, you say "Daddy's who are married should not be dating people." Period.

You will protect them by transcending the drama and mess and being mom.

Hopefully WH really IS agreeing to the condition.

We will see.

You are right. That is the main thing I have been struggling with through all of this, the lack of control.

I would give him the kids. All you have the right to control is that he keep the kids away from the OW. If he takes them around her, you can withhold them from him in the future. You can't ask him where he is planning on taking the kids.

Can you get the 5 yr old a pre-paid phone so he can call you? You can tell him to call you if the skank shows up.

ITA with reading and ML.

It's so hard to let go, but it has to be done.

Yes, I am going to give him the kids, but at this point I'm as equally worried that he'll take them to that house as I am that he will have them around OW. Words cannot express the condition it is in. I am truly worried it is not safe, especially that it's a fire hazard. Our ex-tenant told me an electrician told her it could have an electrical fire at any minute. He sent my IM a text that said he went to the house. That was all it said. No idea what that means.

He also sent my IM an email telling her that a large household item I had asked him MONTHS AGO to keep his eye on for me for when it went on sale is now on sale until the end of the month and that "he has never seen it that cheap." It's the main component of a project he had -- again, months ago -- agreed to make for me. ??? The Wayward Mind is certainly a conundrum, huh? I've given up trying to understand it or derive any meaning from his behaviors, other than, as I told my IM, "It is a clear indication that he is clinically insane. I don't know what else to say."

I just can't shake the feeling that something is up and he is scheming. I keep waiting for the attack or retaliation, waiting for the other shoe to drop.

On a related note, I texted my MIL to ask how her boyfriend was doing (he just had surgery) because that affects when she will be coming for the summer (she winters away). And with the ulterior motive of seeing if she would be honest with me about being in communication with WH and find out if she ever confronted him.

Me: How is [boyfriend] doing?

MIL: He's getting stronger every day. How are you doing? How are the boys?

Me: The boys and I are about the same. Have you talked to WH recently?

MIL: We have texted recently.

Me: Have you asked him about his affair? Or asked him to please not put the kids in the middle of it?

MIL: Yes. Both. He said he will abide by your wishes for now.

Me: For now?

MIL: Until he can get legal advice.

Me: I don�t know what he told you, but we both have lawyers already. So I�m not sure what that means.

MIL: I don�t know. I just know he wants to see the boys. He did not tell me what his lawyer said. He was at work and didn�t have time.*

Me: I know he wants to see the boys. I want him to see the boys, too. It�s hard being away from a parent when you are a kid. I know how that feels,** so I feel badly for both the boys and him that he wouldn�t. The boys want to see him and are going to be excited to visit again. It�s good he wants to do the right thing for them.


What little respect I still have for this woman is draining away.


*I was tempted to say, �Really? Because he exchanges 400-500 texts PER DAY with OW while he is working.� But I took the high road.

**My parents divorced when I was a kid. WH�s husband�s family has no experience with divorce where children are involved, so they keep telling me things like �I hope you and he don�t use the boys as weapons� which I find particularly insulting because 1) that�s a pretty passive-aggressive way of basically telling me you think I will do just that and 2) they have no experience to draw from, so no understanding of what that would even mean. It�s something I would never do, but every time I disagree with him about the kids, do something that he doesn�t like, or I just don�t give him free reign to do whatever he wants with regards to my children, then I am a vindictive, controlling b-tch.

I am a child of divorce too, I totally understand. Having my kids go and visit daddy is so hard for me too.

Again, if he IS scheming or a shoe drops

you go with the flow and the punches.

Your MB plan will keep you in shape to ride it all. You simply follow the plan

no matter what.

You keep legal counsel and do your part to allow him access to the kids and

learn to get above the drama. To transcend the hoopla WH set into motion.

Love yourself. Love the kids. Have hope but let no scheme from over there bait you and set you off course.

Hyacinth, I know that you want to know what people are saying to your WH, BUT being in Plan B, you should NEVER KNOW. You asked her about it, flat out and then got into a back and forth with her.

Remember, blood is thicker than water. She is going to side with her son(unfortunately cuz I would kick my son's azz if he was doing this). Sometimes, you get great in-laws who stand up at first, but eventually, they too pick the side of their child, especially if they have back and forths with their D/SIL.

You asked people to speak up for you and your marriage, what you need to do now is sit back, step out of the drama and heal yourself.

NO MORE FINDING OUT ABOUT YOUR WH, k?

It's not that I wanted to know what she was saying to WH, it's more that I wanted to know if she ever confronted him at all. She's been saying she would since I told her about his first affair in December 2010. Believe me,I know she will always side with him, plus she is a HUGE enabler. It's just that I guess I thought I was supposed to follow up on exposure, but I will let it rest.

In Plan B the most important part is protecting YOURSELF from any drama in wayward-ville. That means that, as hard as it is going to be at first, you need to refrain from asking ANYTHING about your WH.

Being in Plan B, you are not going to follow up on the exposure, you just let the exposure has it's effect. Believe me, I totally understand how frustrating it is to sit around and KNOW that NO ONE has laid down the law with your WH. It makes me so angry and sometimes, I feel alone in the fight against the war against my WH's A.

One thing I do take out of it is knowing that when my sons grow, I have taught them right from wrong, and I am willing to back it up. They know that affairs are wrong and that they should not be tolerated. Last Sunday, my DS10 was at his cousin's bday party with my WH. I heard(although, I shouldn't have) that my DS10 was being chased by a girl who wanted to kiss him. He kept running away from her and when my SIL's OM said, "Oh, so you are two timing?" My DS10 looked him straight in the face and said, "No, I have no interest in her, I have a girlfriend." Proud moment for me, that's for sure.

Today I'm taking my boys to a picnic/birthday party and then later this afternoon my IM is going to deliver them to WH for his weekend visit (which we previously had agreed would be Sat eve - Tue morn so I could take them to this party). I'm kind of dreading the party because of some of the people who are going to be there. There will be a lot of people who don't really care asking "How are you?" because they're just fishing for gossip. A couple of them even are friends of my ex-friends who are the ones hanging out with and supporting WH and OW, so I know that anything I say or do will be reported back and I just want to stop all the drama. My plan is when anyone asks how I am to just say mildly, in the most innocuous way possible, "I'm well. How are you?" (I am 99% sure that those ex-friends & their kids will not be there, but if they are I'm just going to drop off the birthday present and leave. And then I'll take my kids to a park or something fun this afternoon to make up for missing the party, if that happens.)

This morning has been rough because I am missing my WH as the person who was my very best friend for 24 years. I know some of my friends do not have this kind of relationship with their spouses and they don't understand. Until 6 months ago, WH and I were each others' first choices for someone to spend the day with, so we were always together. (For instance, last night I finally told my aunt and uncle we were separated - no real details - and my uncle said "What the heck?! I thought you two had like the perfect marriage?!")

It's hard when he takes my boys for more than just a few hours, because he and they are the only things I care about int his world and he is taking all that away from me. I'm just feeling very lonely. And all alone.

I am sorry you are sad, Hyacinth. I know how awful this is for you. Please start thinking of ways to take your mind off this. Devote yourself to finding ways to fill your life without him. It will be hard at first, but if you really do a good job of keeping him out and focusing on you and your children, you will feel dramatically better in no time. Bring the body and the mind will follow.

I LIKE that you are thinking of this ahead of time and have a PLAN IN PLACE to avoid any uncomfortable situations. You are doing good to think ahead like this. This is the kind of strategic thinking that will help you feel better SOONER. You are doing VERY GOOD.

The thing is, I am usually pretty good at not thinking about him that way. I am always sooooooo busy and I have a ton of friends. I'm always super focused on my kids because they are the center of my world. I have a million hobbies and other things to do to fill my time. For some reason,though, this morning it's just really hit me. It's been a while since I've felt this bad with regards to losing him in that capacity. I just really miss the man he was.

It sucks.
It does.
You are doing remarkably well considering the mess.

Keep your chin up.

I felt the same way this morning, my WH has the boys and the house is very empty and alone. Good news is they will be back tomorrow, he did not want to keep them for the long weekend. I miss the person my husband was too.

You're doing great Hyacinth knowing you have a plan! If it were me (and I did this btw), go to that party and look the best you can! That way when you say you're doing well, you look as if you're doing well.

Plus even in a distant plan B, word gets out that the betrayed spouse "WAS LOOKIN GOOD" at the party to the ws..it does! You're not staying home, hiding from people, you're out there, actually enjoying yourself, KNOWING how to dodge a verbal bullet, and just being you.

That is important. do not dodge events because certain people might be there (unless it is ws and that would break a great plan B). People will always ask questions b/c people are nosy and get bored and want to focus on bad things happening to other people so they can have a break from their own bad crap in their life. So that's why. So go, hold your head high, and be attractive, and spend a few minutes there, or as long as you're able to have fun, and stay. Then deliver the present and leave.

You're doing great!

I understand.... we have not been together as long, but he was my best friend too.... until around Christmas when he started talking about "leaving".... I was so hurt and confused.... now I know it was the affair.... and yes it hurts when he is with the kids because it should be US with the kids.... so hard....

Yesterday evening, my IM took my boys to meet WH for their weekend visit (usually he just picks them up at daycare on Friday, but I kept them to go to a party yesterday). She said as soon as she pulled out of the driveway, DS5 told her "We're going to visit our dad because he promised to keep that bad lady away from us. I don't want him to be friends with that bad lady anymore."

She said she told him "Aw, Sweetie... you can tell him that, you know."

After "the drop," my IM, her H and I shared a bottle of wine and chatted for the rest of the evening. Now I'm off to meet my sister for dinner and to go to a concert. Keeping busy!

Hope everyone is having a great Memorial Day weekend.

Hope you are having a great evening!!