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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
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Maybe my dad was a monster, or maybe he was just trying to do the best he could.

If your dad committed adultery he was not doing the best he could, he was doing his worst. Like yours, my father was a cheater too. Nothing to be proud of for sure. frown

Dr. Harley doesn't encourage us to delve into childhood issues, much, but I think it's interesting that so many of us here have at least one wayward parent and/or divorced parents in our past, or in this case one who contemplated going wayward.

I can't find it at the moment, but I've got a link to an offsite interview with Dr. Harley where he talks about how children of divorce have a lot more trouble forming healthy marriage relationships.

(Guess I'll pause here for a rueful "Thanks, Mom." Then I'll quit navel-gazing at my past lest it start to become an excuse for anything.)


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In this radio program from 2006, Dr. Harley answers to a man whose wife is severely disabled and not meeting his needs. He makes several comments about what typically happens when one spouse becomes disabled.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=1322


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by markos
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Emotional needs are not things you die without. Like breathing oxygen. Emotional needs are things you "need in order to be in love." Not things you need "in order to stay alive."

These are great posts, Markos and I agree 100%. I think some do miss the point that emotional needs are relevant in the context of a romantic relationship. Like you said they are not needs like food or oxygen that one needs to stay alive. One does not NEED to have a romantic relationship.

I thought it was interesting that Dr Harley said in the radio clip that most don't cheat when their spouse is critically ill. Rather, the tendency is to enthusiastically tend to the disabled spouses needs and remain faithful. This situation reminds me that principles are not something to be observed only when its easy, but when its hard. Otherwise, one can't claim to have principles.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Dr Harley said in that radio clip that it is "very unusual" for spouses to cheat when their spouse is critically ill.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Last time I checked, the marriage vow - the promise - was "in sickness and in health." It doesn't say, "until once of us is incapacitated to the point where we can no longer..."

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Markos,

You bring a great perspective about children of divorce and cheating parents. I can see why Dr. Harley does not go into childhood issues. Even if parents commit adultery, there is never an excuse for their children to do the same in their marriages. Even adulterous parents need to make their children know how wrong it is.

Cypress

Last edited by Cypress; 06/15/11 09:45 AM.

Me DH 39
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I am appalled that someone even had the nerve to ask if this is OK.





Me: BS age 35
POS-eX-the SORRIEST, CRUELEST, LOWLY WAYWARD SCUMBAG out there
Married 14.5 years, together almost 16
DDay: 7-5-09
OC born: 7-23-09
no COM: tried 6 years frown
D filed 5/05/2011
D final 11/10/11
I was gaslighted for 2 years.

"You were not built for a safe story. Take risks and feel what it is like to actually be brave. It's worth it." Carlos Whittaker
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Originally Posted by markos
In this radio program from 2006, Dr. Harley answers to a man whose wife is severely disabled and not meeting his needs. He makes several comments about what typically happens when one spouse becomes disabled.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=1322

I would have loved to have heard this clip, it won't load for me.


I am 52, stbxh is 46
One child together 15 DD
2 (mine) from 1st marriage, 26 dd and 28 ds.
Married Dec 94
Separated Oct 09
Too many D-Days to list. (EA/Cyber affairs)
He filed no fault 3-2011 I countered with grounds.
Court date set for June 6, 2011 for Final Decree and was continued.
That ticked him off, he is now fighting for custody.
Lawyers are expensive, my daughter is worth every penny.
Even the ones I have to borrow.
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Originally Posted by Cypress
Even adulterous parents need to make their children know how wrong it is.

I really don't have much to add to the main question being asked here (because obviously yes it is still adultery even if the spouse has Alzheimer's - which runs in my family by the way). But this statement caught my eye. Maybe it's because I was raised by a single mother/OW, who even 40 years after her A with my father sees herself as the "victim" in the entire situation and blames my father for making all sorts of false promises to her and never leaving his wife for her.

My question is, how on earth is an unrepentant wayward supposed to let their children know that what they did was wrong? As we've seen, there are many people who fall into that wayward mindset and never get out of the fog. My mother is a great example of this. It'd be nice if she'd wake up and see the error of her ways, but it ain't gonna happen.

And I in no way intend to use that as an excuse for anything that I've done. I know what I did was wrong, in spite of the fact that my mother never would have told me so. My H tried the whole exposure thing with her after I told him about my A. Didn't get him very far. She had no problem with me having an A. She didn't say a word one to me about it. But that's no excuse for my behavior.

I will agree that it's much more difficult for those of us who come from completely dysfunctional families to have a successful marriage, but I don't think it's impossible. And I don't think my chances of success should hinge on whether or not my mother ever emerges from one of the deepest wayward fogs imaginable.


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This touches a nerve w/me as my beloved grandmother passed away last year due to a stroke but was suffering from severe dementia beforehand. She could not walk, talk, but could think clearly. She was in her last days, a prisoner in her own body.

She and my grandpa had been married 70 years. He did not desert her. He stayed by her side. He held her hand through it all.

Six weeks after she departed earth for God's presence in heaven, he decided he had to join her. He passed away too.

So WHY ON EARTH would we ever condone cheating on a spouse simply because they have a debilitating DISEASE or accident or problem that they themselves could not ever want to have in the first place?

I feel anybody who does that to their spouse is lower than dirt and they best not cross my path.

To Writer, it must hurt knowing your mom is a perpetual wayward. It is sad. My mom is now one too, as we thought she had cheated on our dad before he passed. Some waywards NEVER wake up, forever blaming their problems and their affairs and moral insufficency on others rather than doing the brave thing and looking at the mirror for the source of their problems.

My mothers' cheating has cost her 2 daughters and 3 grandchildren. I am permanent NC with my own mom because of the horrible things she has done.


Change happens by listening and then starting a dialogue with the people who are doing something you don't believe is right. ~Jane Goodall
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Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Cypress
Even adulterous parents need to make their children know how wrong it is.

I really don't have much to add to the main question being asked here (because obviously yes it is still adultery even if the spouse has Alzheimer's - which runs in my family by the way). But this statement caught my eye. Maybe it's because I was raised by a single mother/OW, who even 40 years after her A with my father sees herself as the "victim" in the entire situation and blames my father for making all sorts of false promises to her and never leaving his wife for her.

My question is, how on earth is an unrepentant wayward supposed to let their children know that what they did was wrong? As we've seen, there are many people who fall into that wayward mindset and never get out of the fog. My mother is a great example of this. It'd be nice if she'd wake up and see the error of her ways, but it ain't gonna happen.

And I in no way intend to use that as an excuse for anything that I've done. I know what I did was wrong, in spite of the fact that my mother never would have told me so. My H tried the whole exposure thing with her after I told him about my A. Didn't get him very far. She had no problem with me having an A. She didn't say a word one to me about it. But that's no excuse for my behavior.

I will agree that it's much more difficult for those of us who come from completely dysfunctional families to have a successful marriage, but I don't think it's impossible. And I don't think my chances of success should hinge on whether or not my mother ever emerges from one of the deepest wayward fogs imaginable.
ITA with you, writer. My mother (who has Alzheimer's BTW, is in fact in a 30+ year affairage. One of the things that shocked me into ending my A was the fear of becoming my mother. My H and I are both children of divorce and both of his parents were adulterers. No excuse, we both know right from wrong and we both did wrong.

His mother supported his adultery. She was never sorry she had an exit A from her marriage to his father.

My children are being taught that adultery is wrong. Unfortunately they are also very shy of the idea of marriage thanks to our lousy example. We are working on turning that around by them seeing how happy we are now.


Faith

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This is indeed an interesting thread. One of the things that hit me was a statement somewhere to the effect that just because someone's emotional needs aren't met is not grounds for divorce. I was in what I thought was a 23 year loveless marriage with my kids' dad and I gave up first...I did give it a chance and was willing to work things out but he went ahead and got a divorce. For the rest of my life I will regret that we didn't make it. Neither of us were bad people, we just needed to learn to communicate better and how to show love to each other in a way the other could perceive it...nothing that marriagebuilders couldn't have helped with. This is something I wish I'd understood back then. He is now remarried but it's not the happiest, but he's reconciled to it...it just goes to show, we can trade partners but all we're really doing is trading problems. The problem is, we're people, we aren't perfect, we all have things to work on. I remember a preacher preaching on that subject once, he said when people encounter a problem they think the solution is to change their job or their partner, instead of seeing it through and working it out, and all they do is change their problems. Maybe our biggest problem is ourselves. smile

It shouldn't need commending, it should go without saying, but I commend anyone that sticks by the stuff, through thick and thin, whether is sickness or in health, til death do they part. That used to be a given.


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I agree, seeking a way out of a marriage through affairs or divorce prevents us from dealing with our own issues. Sticking it out and working through problems in a marriage, is the harder path. But the personal growth along the way brings a happiness the couple could only have dreamed of before.

I believe that God gives us challenges that require us to learn important lessons about ourselves. Its more than just choosing good over evil, we have to learn something along the way.

I'm proud to know those in these forums that were able to learn their lessons and save their marriages.



Me DH 39
WW 45 EA/PA LTR
DD2 6 yrs old
Divorced 2000

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Originally Posted by faithful follower
ITA with you, writer. My mother (who has Alzheimer's BTW, is in fact in a 30+ year affairage. One of the things that shocked me into ending my A was the fear of becoming my mother. My H and I are both children of divorce and both of his parents were adulterers. No excuse, we both know right from wrong and we both did wrong.

This has always been my fear, the fear of becoming my mother. It's difficult for me to look back at my life and see that I've made many of the same mistakes that she has made. I think (hope) the difference is that I actually realize the things I did were indeed mistakes and have taken (am taking) steps to own my mistakes and stop doing those things. But it's a constant struggle. I very much think that my fear of becoming my mother played an important role in my decision to end my A. My mother had no particular problem with my A. That's one of the things that broke through the fog and made me realize just how wrong what I was doing was.


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Interesting. My mother did become her mother. She is in an affairage to this day as a result.

She also became such a USER, using other people (including her children) for her own gain, and not placing any value on them at all, that she hasn't seen me in many years. (This is also for my own protection. I don't want to become my mother! And her number one mistake that ultimately led to her downfall was continuing to see and justify her mother.)

Last edited by markos; 06/21/11 08:15 AM.

If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by markos
Interesting. My mother did become her mother. She is in an affairage to this day as a result.

She also became such a USER, using other people (including her children) for her own gain, and not placing any value on them at all, that she hasn't seen me in many years. (This is also for my own protection. I don't want to become my mother! And her number one mistake that ultimately led to her downfall was continuing to see and justify her mother.)

Unfortunately, cutting my mother out of my life isn't an option for me. I'm pretty much all she has. She lives with my 89-year-old grandmother right now (my mother never left home and has pretty much lived with my grandmother her entire life). After my grandmother passes away, my mother has made it pretty clear that she intends to live with me for the remainder of her life. Just typing that made my stomach turn. But there's not much I can do. She has uncontrolled diabetes and had to quit working last year because she broke her ankle and that, along with her bad knees (she's very obese), makes it difficult for her to get around.

I have actually considered entering the witness protection program to escape this fate. Do they offer witness protection to people with horrible parents? They should.


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Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by markos
Interesting. My mother did become her mother. She is in an affairage to this day as a result.

She also became such a USER, using other people (including her children) for her own gain, and not placing any value on them at all, that she hasn't seen me in many years. (This is also for my own protection. I don't want to become my mother! And her number one mistake that ultimately led to her downfall was continuing to see and justify her mother.)

Unfortunately, cutting my mother out of my life isn't an option for me. I'm pretty much all she has. She lives with my 89-year-old grandmother right now (my mother never left home and has pretty much lived with my grandmother her entire life). After my grandmother passes away, my mother has made it pretty clear that she intends to live with me for the remainder of her life. Just typing that made my stomach turn. But there's not much I can do. She has uncontrolled diabetes and had to quit working last year because she broke her ankle and that, along with her bad knees (she's very obese), makes it difficult for her to get around.

I have actually considered entering the witness protection program to escape this fate. Do they offer witness protection to people with horrible parents? They should.

She doesn't have to live with you. You are kidding yourself if you think that is your only option in dealing with a disabled mother (in this country anyway). My grandmother lived on her own---with many physical problems (including diabetes) for many many years. She also didn't drive at all. She also had no money except for what she received from the government. She was fine. She went to a Senior center for lunch every day. She was cared for in every way. My mom took her to doctor visits and home health visited when necessary.

Do you know when she stopped living alone? When my user Aunt was widowed and needed my grandmother's income to help her pay her bills.

So no...your mother doesn't have to live with you.

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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
She doesn't have to live with you. You are kidding yourself if you think that is your only option in dealing with a disabled mother (in this country anyway). My grandmother lived on her own---with many physical problems (including diabetes) for many many years. She also didn't drive at all. She also had no money except for what she received from the government. She was fine. She went to a Senior center for lunch every day. She was cared for in every way. My mom took her to doctor visits and home health visited when necessary.

Do you know when she stopped living alone? When my user Aunt was widowed and needed my grandmother's income to help her pay her bills.

So no...your mother doesn't have to live with you.

The difference in my situation is that my mother has never lived alone. She's always lived with her parents. My mother has never fully supported herself or fully taken care of herself.

Right now, she lives in my grandmother's house with my grandmother, my aunt, and my uncle. When my grandmother passes away, the house will go to my mom and uncle (they are brother and sister). My aunt and uncle can't stand my mother, so I don't see the 3 of them living there together after my grandmother is gone without killing each other. What will probably happen is the house will be sold and my mother and uncle will split the money. The house isn't in great shape (and neither is the housing market here) so I don't know how much my mother's half will be, but even if it's enough for her to get by on, I can't see my mother figuring out how to live on her own after 60+ years of someone else always being there to take care of her.


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Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
She doesn't have to live with you. You are kidding yourself if you think that is your only option in dealing with a disabled mother (in this country anyway). My grandmother lived on her own---with many physical problems (including diabetes) for many many years. She also didn't drive at all. She also had no money except for what she received from the government. She was fine. She went to a Senior center for lunch every day. She was cared for in every way. My mom took her to doctor visits and home health visited when necessary.

Do you know when she stopped living alone? When my user Aunt was widowed and needed my grandmother's income to help her pay her bills.

So no...your mother doesn't have to live with you.

The difference in my situation is that my mother has never lived alone. She's always lived with her parents. My mother has never fully supported herself or fully taken care of herself.

Right now, she lives in my grandmother's house with my grandmother, my aunt, and my uncle. When my grandmother passes away, the house will go to my mom and uncle (they are brother and sister). My aunt and uncle can't stand my mother, so I don't see the 3 of them living there together after my grandmother is gone without killing each other. What will probably happen is the house will be sold and my mother and uncle will split the money. The house isn't in great shape (and neither is the housing market here) so I don't know how much my mother's half will be, but even if it's enough for her to get by on, I can't see my mother figuring out how to live on her own after 60+ years of someone else always being there to take care of her.

You can certainly help her figure that out....my mom did all of that for my gm. My gm also had never been on her own....went straight from her parents house (as the youngest and spoiled child) to her husband's house and he took care of her until he died. Still and yet she didn't have to live with any of her children.

You are in control of yourself writer. Not your mother. I do believe we have a certain amount of obligation to care for aging/dependant parents, but that doesn't extend to the point that we are harmed...especially in this country where it is possible for aging people to live alone for a long time.

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Well put SW. Writer, please stop being so fatalistic. If having your mother live with you would harm your health or your marriage, you are not obligated to do it. The only one who can force that choice upon you, is you.

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