Ahh, DH and I have also discussed this. Hurtful to hear, but still because of the obvious: the infidelity that I introduced into the M.

And you know, if DH can never be truly 100% there, I'm okay with how much he is here now. Most days, anyway. For those others, I need to either speak up, like jessi said, or shut my Taker up. Or both.

Thanks, all of you, for weighing in. Am feeling better today - DH and I had date night last night, and we did a 10-mile run. If I'm tough enough to do that, what's a little depression in recovery every now and then?

Also, whether you guys said it directly or not, you've reminded me of another way to tame my Taker, and that is: perspective. Not w/ the depression, that makes for a miserable wife to come home to, but overall remembering my place in all of this, as well as DH's.

Just keeping this around:


Thread here.

I've had this idea tumbling around in the back of my mind for a while - the idea that DH and I are three years out from D-day, and that it's a marker of sorts, and that I should post something. However, that's about as far as my cogent thoughts on this go.

I know one thing for sure: it wasn't until this last year that things really started to level out a bit, it seems. More steady, "good" days, fewer and less drastic lows on the recovery rollercoaster. I think DH and I have in many ways reached a sort of acceptance - that this is what it is, we can't change it, we can just keep our heads down and move forward.

I've given up my expectations - the lows on the coaster finally beat them all out of me, I think. It makes things easier for everyone, I believe, but I also feel bad identifying that I have no more expectations - I somehow feel selfish, I think, and not as abased or "sorry enough." The point is a bit difficult for me to articulate, but I think the feeling translates to: if I don't feel emotionally anguished, then it must mean I've moved on from the affair and I'm leaving my DH to his anguish on his own.

We've had some periods over the last year that have been really good, and a handful of times where it seems we're actually both feeling that "in love" feeling - at least, more connected that way than most of the time over the past few years.

Upon reflection, that statement requires clarification: those particularly connected times I'm thinking of seem to be when the cloud of infidelity has been dispelled for a bit. We enjoy each other and the moment more, I think, and don't have so many of those thoughts at the back of our minds as usual. Of course, I'm hypothesizing about DH here, and I know he and I both think about the affair on a daily basis still - there is no "getting over it," that's for sure.

Another thing: my infidelity is shaping the direction of our lives, certainly. We decided medical school had to happen. There are a number of reasons - we will have a stable career in the family if I am a doctor, and DH can then be free to explore his own career change. The kids will be provided for, and so will I - a point that DH feels he needs to safeguard in the advent of his departure from the marriage.

He and I both identify that me being a homemaker is a far better family environment, but long-term it may not be wise to give up the medical career.

There are many triggers this all brings back, though - the schedule, the stressors, the demands on the family and time. DH insists on guarding against things I could later hold against him, should I ever go wayward again. To that end, he takes on more things than I would like him to. My Taker, of course, is happy to get study time. My Giver is wretched. I am trying to balance this, and I have to actively work on this area so that DH hopefully feels comfortable in letting me do more that I would like to - cooking, cleaning, whatever.

Things are pretty cursory with my family. DH has no relationship with them anymore, and if that does ever change, I know DH will always be guarded in those interactions.

As usual, this is getting long, and I'm not really saying much. I guess the update is: marginal improvement in Year 1, marked improvement in Year 2, and major improvement in Year 3. I hope the trajectory stays positive.

Our Dday was June 18, 2008. you described our own family to a near T! not the careers, but the dynamics.

CV

A few points that stick out that I've highlighted here.

"The kids will be provided for, and so will I - a point that DH feels he needs to safeguard in the advent of his departure from the marriage."

Reverse this, and you have NGB. She had been going through all this mad planning about going into school, getting a good career, etc...

Why?

Not for if, but for when I "decided to leave." It isn't a question, it's a guarantee in her mind.

Recovery is an all-or-nothing endeavor. She doesn't want to go to school because she really wants to have a career, or because she wants higher pay. She is safeguarding against my checking out.

What would this mean?

It would mean that the path followed to attain this safeguard would be a drain and constant trigger, rather than something that adds to or bolsters the marriage, or our recovery.

Once this was discussed honestly, it was pretty simple; the only way this will be a benefit is in the event of repeat infidelity, from which separation and divorce would be immediate and unpleasant. If recovery is the goal, than the plan is to move forward on a path of recovery, not the direct contingency for failure, which will only put strain on both our recovery and the marriage.

She wants to be a SAHM, this is why I will attain the highest level of education available, which is what I want to do either way.

"DH insists on guarding against things I could later hold against him, should I ever go wayward again."

This is pain and fear, and/or fear of pain speaking. It is the residual damage of fogbabble.

Yes, fogbabble is BS. You probably can't remember half of what you heaped on him... but he can. And it hurts.

This fear is a cage.

This fear is why I typed up an EP "contract."

To let go of that fear, I had to lay out what my exact plan with future infidelity is, what her plan for avoiding future infidelity is, and what the aftermath would include.

Here is the simplicity; she can attempt to resent or hold against me any grievance she wishes for any repeat infidelity, and it will be met with - an empty home.

That fear had to go if I am to free myself to fall in love with my wife again. You cannot fall in love without vulnerability, you cannot be vulnerable when you are paralyzed with fear. Not to mention, constant fear makes Radical Honesty increasingly difficult, and can create "trouble avoidance."

Time to stop testing the water and jump in.

lol, HHH, I agree 100% - thank you for articulating that so well from your perspective as a BH, and from your and NGB's recovery journey.

DH and I long ago identified what it would take to overcome the infidelity, and putting aside that fear, "freeing himself to fall in love with me again," are just not going to happen. He has no appetite for that risk.

Of course, I still hope that changes. I've given up expecting any of it, and, as I said, it helps maintain a more steady-state that way.

For us, DH was the one pushing for the return to medical school. We tried this last year, and it was very much in the context of not if, but when he leaves the marriage. This time around, it is more along the lines of tackling a problem as a unit - unhappiness with his career/overall life path (driven by my infidelity to the point of intolerability) and wanting to somewhat safely explore alternatives. If I have a career as a doctor, he is free to do that. Hopefully with family intact.

(That, and a mention here and there of how I don't get to be the SAHM with the perfect life that I want while he's been dealt a more than crummy hand by me and still has to work and toil in a job that he doesn't want anymore. Those remarks hurt, though I understand and have no defense against them. He's right. I owe him.)

My motto now: it is what it is. This year was better. I know DH's "contract" would match yours, HHH, re: consequences of future infidelity, but I don't know if it will ever include the leap to really loving me again. I'll just keep hoping (albeit minimally, as the resultant depression is no fun for anybody), and keep updating...

(((Mrs_V)))

No real advice, but started thinking, from my little corner of the world...

Such bitter irony that the ones we allow closest to our hearts are the ones who can do the most damage. The ones who can love us the best can also hurt us the deepest. I can completely understand why my H does not want to allow himself to be vulnerable with me, because, after how I wounded him, he fears the pain that I can inflict on him. Honestly, I'm in kind of the same place now with my own feelings, even though I realize that the pain I feel is nothing compared to what I gave him. I am sure there are plenty of people who would say I deserve whatever pain my H inflicts on me. Regardless, I can definitely say I have slowly started to withdraw from H...that whole "you're not worth it" comment he made to me didn't help, and now my father's death has made me close off further, to the point where I am actually afraid to open up and share any of my feelings with him, because just as I did to him, he has the ability to hurt me more than anyone else in the world.

That said (I posted it before, and I kind of like it) :


I'm certainly not in recovery, and probably never will be, so I cannot be a shining example here, but yeah, to love and be loved - truly loved - in return, we have to be vulnerable. That goes for FBS and FWS alike. We can put in place safeguards to help our BH's feel that it is safer to be vulnerable, like EPs, but in the end, the BH is still exposing their soft underbelly.

I for one hope that Mr. V decides to let himself be completely vulnerable to you again, and allows himself to fall back in love with you.

Aw, thanks for your thoughts, WPG. You guys are too kind to me here.

DH and I were talking about the med school thing, and how my preference would still be to stay home. He and I both ruefully acknowledged that it could happen, provided I knew a way to turn back time.

Too bad I/we don't, huh?

The CSL quote is interesting. It is a writing of his I have pondered before. He wrote it after Joy died.

Keep your heart safe is good advice. It�s could be said it�s biblical: Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life. (Proverbs 4:23)

CSL is not just talking about romantic love. He may not be talking about romantic love at all. The full quote in context does not refer to romance, marriage or the meeting of ENs in any way. He is talking about a higher love. Love that compares to romantic love as selflessness, caring and compassion compare to drug addition. Isn�t that what romantic love is in any case: brains on chemicals designed to foster procreation, only?

C. S. Lewis: (From The Four Loves, as found in The Inspirational Writings of C.S. Lewis, 278-279.)

�Of all arguments against love none makes so strong an appeal to my nature as �Careful! This might lead you to suffering.�

To my nature, my temperament, yes. Not to my conscience. When I respond to that appeal I seem to myself to be a thousand miles away from Christ. If I am sure of anything I am sure that His teaching was never meant to confirm my congenital preference for safe investments and limited liabilities.

There is no safe investment. To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket�safe, dark, motionless, airless�it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. The alternative to tragedy, or at least to the risk of tragedy, is damnation.

The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell. �

Keep your heart means resist evil desires. Many theologians think not protecting one�s heart leads more people to hell than all other offenses except pride.


If you are going to quote CSL to BSs who read here, how about these:

�The pain I feel now is the happiness I had before. That's the deal.�

�No one ever told me that grief felt so like fear.�


Me, I prefer to stay off the brain chemicals and the heart is just a muscle.

It�s all a terrible misuse of the word love.


eta: I like the way CSL writes. He is almost as sparing with commas as EE Cummings.

Mrs. V -

I've been following your posts because I think my story is quite similar to yours. Your advice on the board seems to reflect a strong understanding of MB principles and affairs generally. However, when I read the following couple lines on your post, it made me question a number of things:

"It makes things easier for everyone, I believe, but I also feel bad identifying that I have no more expectations - I somehow feel selfish, I think, and not as abased or "sorry enough." The point is a bit difficult for me to articulate, but I think the feeling translates to: if I don't feel emotionally anguished, then it must mean I've moved on from the affair and I'm leaving my DH to his anguish on his own."

You may not have articulated your feelings correctly (or I may be misreading it), but if my FWW wrote that, I think I would be justifiably irritated. I'm not saying that you have to be "emotionally anguished" to the point where it's physically debilitating, but I think that, if you recognized the gravity of what you did, your heart should sink thinking about it for the rest of your life.

By way of example, I used to tease/torment a kid when I was in elementary school because "he looked a little funny" (not true, but it was justification to do something mean). It was wrong for all sorts of reasons and, to this day, I think about how horrible a person I was. I've since gotten in touch with him and, although he admitted that it was emotionally difficult for him to be teased by other students for so many years, he appreciated my efforts to seek an apology. I think about it at least a couple times every month (especially now that I have my own child and think how terrible it would be for him to go through something like that).

Having an affair is significantly worse - I've analogized it to killing your spouse before, and I don't think that's an inappropriate analogy. You've literally torn your husband's life apart with an incredibly selfish act, and it troubles me that your post seems to imply that maybe you've moved on from the affair. If you killed someone, I would think you would think about your act everyday (and certainly be more emotionally anguished than the person you "killed" or his family).

I kind of wonder if you going back to med school has made you think a little less about what happened. Is there a danger in you falling back to where you were? Not trying to be accusatory, just thinking out loud and hoping you tell me that I misread your post . . . .

One point I forgot to mention. You mentioned that your husband has been pushing you toward med school, but it seems like you also think it's the right decision ("He and I both identify that me being a homemaker is a far better family environment, but long-term it may not be wise to give up the medical career.") If you really want to be a SAHM, are you ready to tell your husband that you'd like to give up your medical career for that? If not, I think your being somewhat delusional thinking that it's your husband driving your career - my wife used to misconstrue my statements pre-D-Day as well to make it look like everything she was doing was for me, and I'm trying to see if that's the case here. However, if you're ready to make that commitment (dropping out of medical school), I think you ought to voice that and figure out a way to make it work. I don't think it's healthy for the relationship for you to be going to medical school because your husband has been pushing it or because you think it's good for his career. It's really about what makes you as a couple the happiest.

I don't know what Mrs. V. meant, but I can say that people don't process stuff in the same ways. I would bet that some of the FWS on this board rarely think about their affair. And I would think their BS probably prefer it that way.

Sackcloth and ashes is not very appealing.

First, a disclaimer, as I certainly cannot say that my M has recovered from my affair, far from it. But from my POV, I have a couple of thoughts.

Mrs_V's M has not recovered, not completely. From what I read of her thoughts, I think she fully grasps the consequences of and the reality of her A. But she's essentially in a long-term Plan A, as am I, and we're constantly told not to have any expectations. None. She desires a restored M, but her BH has told her that he refuses to allow himself to be vulnerable enough to her to fall in love with her again. That's his choice. No amount of need-meeting is going to change that.

Love does require a certain amount of vulnerability. As an aside, I do agree that the CSL quote I posted does not only reflect romantic love - we can harden our hearts against anyone, because in one way or another, anyone we love is capable of hurting us, betraying us, leaving us. Even pets can run away or die. I'd go so far as to say that some people have a great love of "things," but even material possessions can let us down, they can be taken away, lost, or destroyed.

Even though there is reciprocal need-meeting going on, Mrs V's H is still keeping her at arms' length - and he's telling her that.

I don't think any repentant WS ever "moves on" from their A in the sense that they forget the devastation they caused. I can't imagine that I ever will, regardless of whether my H comes back to the M or not. The face of the M is irrevocably changed.

I also know that when I'm wallowing in anguish and despair, I'm no good to anyone, certainly not my H. I can't meet his needs when I am wallowing in self-flagellation. Believe me, I've been there often enough to realize that, and have been told that often enough on my thread. If you read helpfordad's thread on this board you'll see that his FWW's constant misery over her A is wearing thin for HFD, b/c when she brings it up each time she is stressed and overwhelmed, it is triggering him. As kerala said, sackcloth and ashes is not appealing, not to HFD.

In a way, the FWS is being selfish if they are dwelling on the A by making it all about him/her. The best way to show remorse and repentance is to change our actions, and demonstrate that through care, time, patience, adherence to EPs, and meeting the EN's of our BS's where they allow us to do so. Maybe it will make an impact, maybe not...that's where the lack of expectations come in.

Anyway, I'm in a different place, with an H who has told me I make him physically sick, that I'm evil, not worth it, and that he hates me many times over the past 2 years. I can't make him take the leap of faith it would take to allow himself to be vulnerable to me again, to fall in love with me again. But at the same time, I know that if he did allow himself to be vulnerable with me, our M could be amazing, and I continue to wait for that, knowing that the likelihood of it happening gets further and further away every day.

If he does come back, and we recover our M, I could never forget that the only reason I had a chance at that was b/c of my H's capacity for forgiveness, his capacity to love and to accept my love in return. A FWS owes their BS, and that's not something I would forget, and think that Mrs. V won't forget either.

Again, I'm in a far, far different place. I'm also dealing with the recent loss of my father, and if it's one thing I've learned in the last 3.5 weeks, it is that if I am too focused on myself, on my own grief, I am no good to anyone.

In the end, we are all broken, and if we desire a truly amazing M, we have to focus on the broken parts not in/of ourselves, but our spouses. Especially where we have been the cause of that brokenness.

I'm not suggesting that Mrs. V be "wallowing in anguish and despair." I agree - sackcloth and ashes are not appealing. I also agree that there are plenty of BSs out there who would prefer that their FWSs never think about the affair; just act like it never happened.

However, I think it's all a matter of degree. If my FWW was just "wallowing in anguish and despair," I would tell her to pick herself up and start taking the next steps. It's not the place anyone should be as it's counterproductive. But if my FWW told everyone that she's moved on passed the affair and left me to deal with emotional issues relating to the affair, I don't think that's correct. It tells me that she doesn't appreciate the gravity of what she did. Again, it's a matter of degree.

I never got the impression from Mrs. V that she's 'moved on' past the affair. Did she post this somewhere and I just missed it?

I have always gotten the sense that Mrs. V is incredibly remorseful for her actions and is allowing her H to set the pace for his recovery. That's great, but I think he's a little high-handed and I think in some cases he is punishing her for being the cause of his pain. Mrs. V has very little control over that. I, personally, think Mr. V needs to quit wasting time and mental space over the affair and get on with the business of recovering and bettering the marriage. He can't/won't put the A in the rearview mirror, IMO. He keeps it on the dashboard.

Here it is, right here.

Hell, as a BH only a year out, I'm a tad offended by some of the guys actions here.

Blaming V for him being "stuck" in a career he isn't happy with?

Puh-lease!

I didn't go to nursing school for NGB or the kids at all. I went through it for myself, and it happens to have benefits that my W and kids will reap.

Certainly, anyone with any reasonable amount of education and certification whining that they are "stuck" is not something that can be placed on somebody else.

Hello?

It's an opportunity to wield the A as a weapon of resentment, and 3 years out... well;


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=33&subsublink=309


This is why I was so hung up on RH for so long, because I kept having meltdowns, and this is NOT THE MAN I WILL EVER BE, PERIOD.

I've never been completely innocent of Love Busters, but I'll be damned if I have ever been, or ever will be abusive to NGB. I cannot stand or stomach abuse of any kind.


And this, V, is why your continuing education (while it should be a good thing, and something I normally advocate and encourage) is something that just seems to be a seed of doom, rather than one of enrichment of your M.

Mike, I agree with you that adultery is the worst thing one can do to a spouse short of killing them. But a WS does not make that up with eternal suffering anguish, but through just compensation. Sure, a WS is going to feel guilt, probably for life, but wallowing in anguish does not help the marriage. What helps the marriage is making just compensation to the BS by creating an affair proof marriage and restoring the romantic love to the marriage.

I don't want my H thinking about his crime for eternity, I want him to think about how to make me happy. And I want to think about how to make him happy. It does not make me happy to see my H in anguish. It makes me happy to see my H in love with me.

This is one of the reasons why Dr Harley advocates never bringing up the affair again. The affair is a very unhappy, traumatic experience in the marriage. If a spouse is thinking about such negative things, then they aren't thinking about how to make the other person happy. The affair can become a very negative DISTRACTION from an otherwise great marriage.

And lastly, if a BS continues to bring up and punish a WS for her affair, then separation is in order.

here

oh! I see that HHH beat me to it!!

Emphasis mine:

�She desires a restored M, but her BH has told her that he refuses to allow himself to be vulnerable enough to her to fall in love with her again. That's his choice. No amount of need-meeting is going to change that. �

It is in several books on recovering from adultery though not in Dr H�s, that I recall, the greater danger to an adulterated marriage is the BS. Another way to state this is (it�s in Carder�s Torn Asunder) the BS is much less likely to get past it than the adulterer is. After all, if the marriage remains intact the adulterer basically gets to have their cake and eat it too. So why would an adulterer have any internalized troubles getting past what they did? The BS on the other hand gets nothing but what they should have had all along. It always looks to rational BS like cutting one�s losses is best.

However, according to Dr Harley, meeting ENs always changes everything. If you meet your spouse�s EN�s in they way they want them met they will fall romantically in love with you. Period. Guaranteed! He states this as an uncontested fact in several writings. (But see caveat below).

So, a question relevant to this thread for MB experts.

What is the MB method, or Dr H�s explicit direction, or perhaps this forum�s advice (direct this question as you see fit) for this fundamental and bottom line issue: What best gets a skittish and/or angry BS to recommit to the adulterated marriage?

Is it time and the normal human tendency towards forgetting just how bad something was? Human brains tend to forget pain and anguish with time. It�s just the way the brain works. For most people. There are exceptions. But the exceptions have other problems. So just wait it out, years if necessary? Pittman writes two years or as log as the A lasted, whichever is longer, is the norm (probably one sigma) for the BS to start showing signs of getting over the trauma. And this is with a repentant WS.

Or, is it the guarantee by Dr H that meeting ENs will do it? But, Dr H has also written that when some peoples� LB balance is deep in the red ENs cannot in fact be met. The deposit window is closed. What then?

Is it long term abject sorrow AND repentance on the part of the adulterer that does it? The forum seems to think this approach lacks, what, style. The collective�s opinion has been the same on this for years. It is deeply ingrained in the forum. Comes up time after time. A proper expression of a proper amount of sorrow for a proper amount of time should be enough to bring a BS back into the marriage. Anything more than this is distasteful. At least to this forum.


I am confused. As usual. I do not want back into any M. And I can definitely tell you no amount of EN meeting will ever get me to romantically love anyone ever again. Period. My deposit window is not only closed the entire bank is insolvent and shut down.

What should the adulterer who still wants the consequences of their adultery to just somehow go away do?

eta: I do not actually understand V�s BH. Why does he not move on already?