"Two guys are sitting in a bar bragging about there sexual conquests in life. This conversation goes on for a couple hours with each man trying to "one-up" his buddy. Finally one man turns to the other and say, OK have you ever had a rodeo f**k. His friend looks at him and says, rodeo f**k, whats that. Well, you see it's like this . . .You mount your wife from behind, get up a good rythm, call her by someone else's name, and hold on for the ride of your life."<P>Yes I know, this joke is in very bad taste, especially on this forum. But it happened to me this morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>I heard the alarm go off this morning, I think. I felt my W push me to get me out of bed so that I could go to work. The alarm went off again (snooze alarm) and my wife says "Stephen, get up." Stephen is NOT my name.<P>I just about climbed out of my skin. I asked her "who the hell is Stephen." She said "oh, I was dreaming about "That 70's show." This sure as hell didn't make me feel any better.<P>After my W walked out on me 18 months ago, I was going through things in our bedroom, when I found several envelopes. These envelopes contained newspaper and magazine clippings of sport stars and movie/TV stars. As I looked further, I also found magazine clippings from home magazines and bridal magazines. They also contained "stories" written by my W telling how she met, fell in love with, married and had children with each of these people. There were dozens. One of the most detailed "stories" involved Chipper Jones of the Atlanta Braves. Not long ago, there was a newspaper story about Chipper getting divorced. Turns out he has had multiple extra-marital affairs, and has at least one child as a result of these affairs. (I don't remember all the details.) I remember when we say this article, I commented that Chipper was one of her favorite fantasies. Her response was "not anymore."<P>I'm so angry right now that I could spit nails. I realize that it was just a dream. I know that I have no reason to even think something like that might happen. But do you realize what this does to my self esteem and ego? Especially after everything that has happened in the last year and a half.<P>I'm sorry, but I am never going to be young again. I will probably never be rich or famous. There is simply no way that I can ever compete with these fantasies. I just can't.<P>Why does this hurt so much?????????????

ES, fantasies are a coping mechanism. I'm not talking about the fantasy of an affair, I'm talking about fantasizing about celebrities and such. They are SAFE because they are not possible.<P>Usually it's women who feel insecure when their men look at nude photos in Playboy and things like that -- we feel that our spouses are comparing them to these people and that we don't measure up. Yes, sometimes the line between fantasy and reality gets blurred, but we have to have the confidence in ourselves to know that even if we might not have the body of this actor or that athlete or the other model, our spouses are with US.<P>After not having been into this sort of thing since the age of 9 (when I had my Paul McCartney fixation), I developed two actor fixations during the last year. Why now, is anyone's guess, except for the obvious reasons of my marital problems. I would rent everything these guys had ever been in. Bizarre.<P>What has complicated matters further is my fiction. I've poured a lot of energy into that, and dealt with my frustration through my writing. Imagine creating a character and starting to fall for that character. It's like Mia Farrow in PURPLE ROSE OF CAIRO: "I've met the greatest guy...of course, he's fictional, but you can't have everythng."<P>The way I get to sleep at night is to come up with plotlines. Read: fantasy. Do you know how many times I've worried that I've said the name of one of these characters in my sleep?<P>Your W has a more elaborate fantasy life than most women, I think. It's probably a coping mechanism; create a fantasy life that her mother can't touch.<P>She's in for a rough road here, ES. Dealing with this mother stuff ain't easy. I STRONGLY recommend counseling. I'm doing better than she is and I'm still going every week.<P>You've been a lot more understanding than my H would be. I know it's hard, but please TRY to cool out, and understand that none of this is about you.<P>I hope this helps.

hi empty shell,<BR>Pretty rough way to start the day...I can only imagine how you must feel about all this. Just a thought, but rather than try to compete with these fantasies maybe take another approach? <BR>Encourage her to continue expressing her fantasies and write fiction. D&C, any comments on that? <BR>Maybe she has some frustrated artisitic feelings that she needs to recognize more than she wants a sexual adventure? <BR>This has never happened to me, so I am not sure how I would deal with it, but the envelopes and stories make it sound like something other than a mistaken identity while in bed. I think I would believe her when she said that she was dreaming about a show. Sounds like she really gets into fictional aspects.

hi d&c, posting at the same time. thanks for the esp!!

All I can say right now to my H is I'm so sorry. I feel like the only thing I can do is beat myself up for such a horrific mistake. I hate myself for doing what I did this morning. Again I'm truely sorry Empty Shell.

The fiction is a double-edged sword. Early on, when I started writing, I kept it from my H, and I think that didn't help us at all. OTOH, writing the beginnings of a love story helped me remember what it was like, and helped me fall in love with my H again. (Don't ask me today if it's lasted )<P>OTOH, there's nothing like writing your "dream guy" to underscore the ways your spouse is lacking.<P>Now I'm writing an emotional affair, and don't think THAT isn't strange.<P>As with any fantasy situation, the key is to keep your head on straight.

Thank you for your responses. I realize that I am probably just over reacting. I know I shouldn't be.<P>I guess I'm just overly sensitive right now. I am still very afraid that my W will take off again.<P>I am really glad that I am having a slow morning at work. I really am having a hard time concentrating right now.<P>Yes, I love my W, and I know she loves me. I am not trying to make my W feel bad. I just think back to the "stories" she wrote, the letters to her internet OM. She has never written anything even close to me, never.<P>Am I just feeling sorry for myself? How do I let this go? Why does it bother me so much?<P>Sorry, just venting.<BR>

Remember this: She's with YOU.<P>When my H's OW/"friend"'s CAT died, he was "Oh, poor [cat's name], oh, poor [OW], so sad, so awful."<P>But when I need comfort, it's not there, because I am Mommy, I'm the one who always has to fix things for HIM.<P>OM is a fantasy, just like the clippings. When day-to-day life sets in, we get lazy.<P>Unfortunately, that's life.

ES - Your W is with YOU. Your W shares YOUR bed. Your W is working with YOU on YOUR marriage. You both have so many things going for you in the right direction. Don't let these speed bumps get you off track.<P>It is very interesting to see husbands and wives post here. I often wonder what my W what comment on some of my posts. I envy you couples who post together in many ways. The openness and honesty would be very refreshing right now. On the other hand, I also wonder if I would be hesitent to say some things knowing my W is reading. <P>Anyway, you guys keep up the good work. I know what you went through is a bad way to start the day, but it looks like you two have made up.<P>SHA

Empty Shell,<P>I can really identify when you talk about that she writes those things, but never to you.<P>After my H and I were dating, he wrote a letter to an ex-girlfriend that said "Everyone has someone they were meant to be with and you were mine." When I read that my heart broke. To this day, he has still never said ANYHTING like that to me. And I still feel like he still believes that he was meant to be with her. (not very productive for a marriage)<P>I'm sure with your wife's letters you feel like you can never live up to what she truly wants. I have to try and believe that even though H can never express his feelings for me, that I do rank up on top. Maybe she was feeling unwanted at the time or maybe she is very creative like D&C was talking about. She does seem truly sorry for this mornings incident. I have to admit I've said things to H in my sleep that made him question me. I told him once I had to hide the blue paper before he saw it. He questioned me about it and wanted to know what I was hiding. I don't have a clue what I was talking about! I'm sure it was as innocent for your wife, even though it's understandable why it is painful for you.<P>------------------<BR>Shoni<P><BR>

One other thing...sometimes being half-asleep yourself can make you hallucinate.<P>Last December, I "woke up" (or so I thought) and heard my H talking in his sleep, something he usually doesn't do. I thought, "Listen to him...this might give you your answer. I heard him say (as if on the phone), "Can't wait to see you...bye bye." I went into a panic, my heart started pounding.<P>I was so upset and so depressed the next day; I was sure that he had 'fessed up in his sleep. A friend convinced me that I'd really been asleep, even though I was sure I wasn't. Or was I?<P>H doesn't talk in his sleep. But I was so worried about what he was doing, I might very well have dreamed that I woke up and this happened. My dreams are pretty vivid, so the line between dream and reality might have been really blurred.<P>He never talked in his sleep again, so I figure I must have dreamt it.

Compare to what? A celebrety? A fantasy? <BR>Not possible for anyone. Once the expectation is met, if ever, the bar gets raised. So there is no way anyone can ever meet this.<P>I have had the good luck and fortune to have had a few of mine met. When all is said and done, It wasn't that great. Or the expectaions exceded the reality. I think it comes from our media where expectaions are met in an hour, the aftermath of conflict is bliss and where salvation is found in the latest and greatest. <P>To those of us that live in the real world, we know better and parse our expectations accordingly. <P>Fantasies are the stolen moments of thought during the mundane bliss of life. The rocket ride, belting out a hit in front of adoring fans, carrying the winning point of the super bowl or showing a victoria secret model the "kama" of kama sutra is no match to hearing the first crys of your newborn daughter, teaching them to ride a two-wheeler without traning wheels, answering a question that only a child could ask or the knowing look of a loved one.<BR>If she wants to live in fantasyland, she's missing the best of realityland.<P>

Will I ever live up to what my H wants and needs? Will I ever be open enough to give him all the answers he needs? Will I ever be good enough to be the mother of his daughter or any future childern? Will I ever give him any more children? Just have someone beat me up because maybe then I would be able to change quicker. <P>I'm trying. Really I am. I just can't fix everything wrong with me overnight. I wish I could though. I then would be able to tell my H everything he wants to know and I'd be able to tell my mother to buzz off. The letter is a start isn't it?<P>fighter --- I think I'm the one who can't compare. He is everything a person could want in a H and father. I just don't think I will ever compare to what he wants and needs.<p>[This message has been edited by hopeful1771 (edited August 19, 1999).]

Hopeful,<P>Of course you can be the person he needs & wants. Guess what? That's why he married you. You were the person he chose to stand up in front of friends, family & God & make a lifelong commitment to!<P>Yes, your relationship has been rocky for awhile, but it can be salvaged & be better than it ever was, even in the beginning. It will take plenty of hard work, but anything worth having is never easy to get.<P>Keep strong & don't beat yourself up. Support each other & don't get mad because of the way the other is feeling. Help each other through the pain and anger.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Hopeful, no one should have to live up to others expectations. He married you as you. Not someone who would morph into his wants and needs. Growing as a person is all any of us can really do.

All right, Hold up a minute you two!!!<P>This is a very good example of how you both must learn to help each other with your individual insecurities.<P>First, ES - Hearing your W call you a different name after what has occurred must have been a horrible shock - perfectly understandable that you would have a recurrence of fear that perhaps the previous behavior would occur again. No problem there. <P>Having seen the letters and pix of the celebrities, her explanation seems to fit with her "fantasy" mindset in that area, right? So, it is something that you can believe.<P>Knowing all that she has experienced with her family and the insecurities that she is trying to work on within<BR>herself, and that her ultimate goal is openness - why would you take this and make it the issue to deal with at this time and in this way?<P>By putting these out there now, here are the effects on her -<P>1) She may be embarassed<P>2) She has one more thing that you have hit her insecurities on the head with.<P>3) Any "safe" feelings that have been built regarding openness with you may have been jeapordized because she has "once again" been made out to be wrong and stupid.........<P>4) Mom's domination over her and Mom's pointing out of all of your wife's inadequacies have just been reinforced by your pointing out even more of her inadequacies!!<P>ES - I know that none of the above was your intent. Of course you would never do any of these to her!! This is where the learning comes in. Everything she does or thinks does not relate to YOU!!<P>I don't know where the conversation led directly following her explanation, so may be you spoke of where all this 'celebrity stuff' comes from. But right now she is trying to put the root cause (HER MOM) of her insecurities in it's proper perspective. Once that is accomplished for her, she will be gaining strength and security within herself and that is the proper time to talk and examine these other matters. <P>Hopeful sounds like a very creative person. Creative people are very sensitive and caring. They also need outlets for their creativeness. It sounds like she has combined her creativeness with this "coping mechanism" of celebrity fantasy. <P>I happen to think that that was very smart of her and is probably what has not allowed her inner self to be completely lost or overruled by others. <P>What I'm trying to say to you ES is that Yes, you also have certain insecurities that only Hopeful can help you to overcome, but she has a lot to handle and must do it one step at a time. Yes, you and our feelings come first and should be addressed immediately, but until she figures out and gains some understanding of her life for herself, how can she possibly explain it to you?<P>By trying to understand WHY someone would do or say things - we are able to lose some of our initial instinct of self-protection and lashing out. <P>So the lesson of the day is understanding what our actions can cause to the one we love. We learn that we must help them to understand themselves and not hurt them because we have not looked at all the factors in the situation. Don't jump to conclusions so quickly!!!!!<P>And to you Hopeful - Stop that beating yourself up!!!!! You have done nothing wrong in this scenario - you can not help what you dream and when you start changing the way you feel about yourself and your need lessens for that coping mechanism - you will discover why you needed it in the first place. <P>ES just had a moment of insecurity and you have to understand that that is going to happen because of the infidelity and your leaving. It is normal and will happen from time to time and if you beat on yourself each time it does - there will be nothing left of you - SO NO MORE NEGATIVITY!!!!!<P>Concentrate on the future that you will both enjoy when you have found the woman inside yourself and have freed yourself enough from the ropes of insecurity that have you and your true self all tied up in knots.<P>God Bless and keep you both, you have now passed Lesson #1!!!!!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Sheba -- Thanks. I already felt bad enough about having this bother me as much as it did.

Sheba --- I understand why my H was as upset as he was. I feel that he had every right to be upset. I also feel that if he doesn't open up about how he feels whether it's here posting or in conversation, than I may not open up as much as I need to. I believe he need to be as harsh on this as he was

ES - <P>Please - it was not meant to make you feel bad or worse!!!! I'm sorry if you thought so!!!<P>I was merely trying to turn an upsetting circumstance into one that you can both use to gain some understanding from.<P>You did nothing wrong - you need to express your feelings just like she does. The only thing I'm suggesting is that you are both aware of the effects of you words on each other and have the understanding of where they are coming from.<P>I would never try to hurt you ES - it's not an attack - it's an opportunity!! <P>Hugs,<P>Sheba