Stretch, been away a couple of days. Everything OK?

Thanks for stopping by Reynolds.
Things are pretty good. Its hard. But much more even keel.

We've talked about her friends. Why I don't trust. Why I feel ill when she goes to see them.

She has a hard time hearing what I am saying without the old filters... without adding her own storyline. "He wants to control me. He wants to dictate my private relationships."

I want the kind of marriage where if my wife is struggling with a moral dilema, and struggling to determine how to advise her friend, that she and I struggle with the moral dilema together. She comes to me and we share.

I think she understands that I am confident now. That I am emotionally stable. ABle to think through problems clearly.

She is trying to be more O&H. That's good.

She said that for a while she and her friends interpreted that I was doing everything out of "fear." Well, I WAS. And you men on this panel know that. Slapped me around a bit. But I am not now. I clearly told her, "This may not end up happy ever after. I don't know right now. But I know I will survive and thrive either way."

So reality is setting in for her, I think. Time to stop with fantasies and diversions and try to work on saving her marriage. I am there for the work as well. Being depressed and sad and blaming your husband and finding more reasons to be depressed and sad is just one "way of being". But when she realizes that its time to either deal with the supposed problem (her husband) or change that "way of being"... its time to get real and serious. I believe sad and depressed and tired just becomes second nature after 40 years. If I keep getting told that I am the source of that depression, then someday I might just grant her wish.

There is a lot to work on. And we are working on it together. Reynolds, you always tell me its going to take 2 years. I can believe that. We are making progress. Not always making the other one "WRONG" just for having their feelings or differences.

Really enjoying Stretch 2.0 as a father. Enjoying my kids a lot more.

Tonight she invited me to go out to a late movie. We can leave the kids home to sit themselves now sometimes. That's so cool.

I am glad for you Stretch.

Yeah two years, they told me that too and I believe them.

My wife has a toxic cheating friend too. Shes cleaned up her act now and shes a nun - believe that ahh never.

That is cool, stretch, glad to hear y'all are staying on track. She sees a psychiatrist for depression, right? How does your wife think she's doing on, what I'm assuming, is some medication regimen?

Zoloft increased the dose. Her new therapist did that right away. I sense it may help. Perhaps she needs a new med altogether. I heard Zoloft is rather mild after all. ( Takes a LOT of trial and error to get the Anti-D's right... we've talked about it on this forum a lot)

The toxic friend is a distraction still. She is not totally toxic now like she was two years ago. Amazing what exposure does. She is rooting for us. Just no idea how to help IMO. We need people who know how to have a relationship rooting for us IMO. But anyway, the friend is having boyfriend troubles. And that is eating at my wife. Her mind is distracted when her GF's have problems. I know there is danger there!! For example, if she were to run over and console her girlfriend and cry with her and be with her as she looks for a new boyfriend.... there is danger in all that.

We need to explore the depression more in depth. Some conversations are opening up. Some of the foggy re-telling of history and monstrification is breaking down. For my part, I cannot slip into old bad habits. For instance, right now, there are children to be put to bed. Its best we do this as a team. So I better skidaddle upstairs.

Stretch,


FWIW,

I have been reading your posts.

I do not see evidence of Asperger's in your writing. I see clear ability to express feelings, and ability to recognize the point of view of others. I do not see focus on a single topic of interest, nor do I see any deficits with the pragmatics of language that I would expect with a person affected with Asperger's (specifically deficits recognizing and using idioms, metaphors, similies, and other nonliteral aspects of language).

I would question any diagnosis of Asperger's if I were you.

Also, you show a sense of humor, and recognize it when others use it. Additionally, you are able to apply another person's experience or their relating of a story and extrapolate the lesson and then apply it to your own situation.

Persons with Asperger's tend to be quite concrete in this area, and show great difficulty with this task.

You might be experiencing some sense of distance from your wife, and perhaps some wariness of this counselor, which leads them to want to "diagnose" you with "something".........

as for me, I would probably not go into the Autism spectrum as my first choice.

SB

COULD NOT AGREE MORE. Dude, you don't have Asperger's. I would recommend changing therapists in a heartbeat, if this one's so quick to make a "diagnosis" like that so quickly. I've worked with many Asperger's children as well as children way further along the spectrum, and, although I haven't met you, the tone of your posts would make me 99.999999% sure you're not on the autistic spectrum.

Some therapists like to diagnose outside their area of knowledge. You've got a bad apple, I think.

Stretch,

I like to think I'm normal (haha) and I've been diagnosed as Autistic. I meet several of the 'symptoms' for Aspergers or Autism. I function pretty well, tend to be too driven and too focused on things. I've never had any treatment - I think if I'd been public schooled it probably would have been an issue before last year.

DH is ADHD. We're a fine pair!

Good luck,
Steph

Thanks for the insights. Your last sentance accurately describes what they were doing last year.

We left that first MC back in Nov. I never trusted him. And it turns out I was right. He wasn't any good at his profession

That MC knew about the A from March until we dropped him in November. You see, he was also communicating with my wife's PC down the hall. What a couple of incompetents. But... I guess they had no idea what to do. Couldn�t save my wife from her dangerous behavior. Couldn't understand our M. Couldn't break through to me. I like what Harley says:

A) He won't conduct couples therapy until depression is treated.
B) He won't conduct couples therapy if he knows there is an ongoing affair. Even an EA or fantasy affair.

So anyway, we have been with a new MC since Nov. We were with the new MC when I had my D-Day in Jan. and I told my wife I was exposing in Feb in the new MC's office in his presence.

I just wanted to circle back and put some closure on this topic once and for all. So I asked the therapist who has been talking with me and my wife for the past seven months for his opinion. He is more qualified and professional than the other dolts were. This new MC, plus my PC and my physician all agree, there is nothing on any spectrum worth testing for. And I was genuinely very open to pursuing this and finding out for myself. But they advised me not to bother with any testing for: Aspberger's, Social Anxiety, ADHD, OCD, Narcissism, Sexual Addiction.

Thanks to all my studying on affairs this year, I have learned how incredibly common and predictable it is for the MLC, WS to make up all these supposed disorders in their spouse as a part of the monstrification and history revision. It�s quite a LB. This DJ (was it DJ?) was happening to me and only dividing us more � avoiding the real problems in our M.

I am very impressed by your thoughtful posts. It�s possible to gain a lot of insight about a person from their writing. Thanks!

It sure is easy to forget that little nugget of truth isn't it!

I remember being (not so nicely) called OCD during the worst of it because I objected to a cluttered/dirty house. And she was dead serious about it, too. Umm, yeah, I pick up after two kids already and, since you're unhappy with life I'm having to pick up after an adult (WW) which ticks me off and I'm the one with a mental disorder? She was so checked out of family life/responsibilities that it was easy for her to blame me for just about anything.

Funny how OM's departure and the end of the affair suddenly cured my disease.

Have a good one, Stretch. Hope things are going well!

Stretch,

My Then-WH tried to tell me I was (not in any particular order):

paranoid (oh, yeah, I was paranoid, but that didn't mean he wasn't out to get me LOL)

riddled with anxiety (ya think?)

depressed (gee, wonder why?)

obsessed over the affair (oh, you bet...it overtook my every waking moment for those first few weeks!)

bipolar (well, I could have been, after all, I was on this very strange rollercoaster and never bought a ticket!)

neurotic (I did tend to worry about things I couldn't figure out and had NO answers about - although I begged and begged for the one person with the answers to GIVE THEM TO ME)



and a multitude of other disorders too numerous to mention.


I suppose he never threw in the autism spectrum stuff because he knew that would be going WAY into my lane, and I would drive a truck over him?


Wayturds are stupid. They don't have much choice - they are too busy doing stupid stuff to figure out ways to be smart.



SB

I live that one. The new Stretch 2.0 has been trying not to be so uptight about messes. After all... we have four kids. Its gonna happen. But its also depression that stops her from DS.


Yup. Matter of fact, as I talked about on this thread, about a month ago that's what her Dad told her. "You are just in a place where you could blame him for just about anything."

So much of that is really changing this past month. I am assertive and direct. So is she. We are learning ways to confront real problems and not throw up these assumptions and DJ's and excuses.. like
Her: "You have no empathy."
Me: "You're depressed"
Her: "You are worried about your image"
Me: "You are foggy."

A fine line, I'd say, between "messes happening" and letting messes happen. Know what I mean?

I'm (like you, I presume) ok with the first one but it's the second one that bugged/bugs me. To my surprise, FWW is actually agreeable to helping pick up something if I just ask for the help. It just doesn't bother her as much but she's really stepped up to help out because she knows it matters to me. I know she likes having a cleaner house (we have two definitions of clean here) but she just gets overwhelmed with making it happen and then nothing happens. The depression has a bit to do with that, I believe.

With the wife's help, it's much better and, now that they're getting older, getting the kids to pick up their own stuff is good, too. A useful life skill, like lifting the lid on the toilet, in my opinion.

Besides, I have to be careful to not stew over the little things like I used to and stop assuming that FWW is doing something out of spite when, odds are, she isn't. It's how the downward slide in the marriage initially started a long time ago...at least from my side.

Gotta remember where I don't want to be and be glad that I'm not there. Gotta see it as a glass half full kind of thing. This whole thing has been a life-changer, that's for sure.

Sorry for TJ stretch Beginning now

Well SB, I know you have special gifts and trained skills and I am allways one of your students in your posts, so although I shouldn't be surprised, I was when I read that you had also at one time caught the,"disturbed bug?" from a wayward mindset.

When I caught it WW and should I add, addicted W, was heavy into drug fog which added to the fogbank she was allready in for years, and grasping at straws to get out.

She had the young therapist guys convinced I was looney toons, personality disordered and severly bi-polar, and the only reason I wanted to go was to get her into some kinda therapy. Lol. Well it didn't work in all the 19 years I knew her before, I guess I WAS crazy to expect it to then when she was high all the time and her mind was shutting down. Ever witness the changes a heroin addict goes through as they become addicted? It take them over until every feeling is the truth, and the world is all wrong. They destroy themselves from the inside out.

Unfortunatly WW was very aware of how to use the right buzzwords. I foolishly expected to be heard by the clinic that wife was in real danger, but she got under thier radar, to her own eventual destruction.

So I am not really a slouch either, but when you are a guy, open to believe they might have made some mistakes, willing to be comepletly open for example, hoping to draw the other party into therapy, because they are involved in a deep addiction, and the other party is hostile to therapy of any kind, way, shape of form... Guess what happens? Nah you know, they treat the non-hostile and willing.

I tried the police first, and that was a dead-end also. Chaulk it up to throwing yourself on the grenade I guess one to many times for someone who felt entitled to more than everyone else had.

So anyways, I was glad to see that you also showed symptoms of a partners mental conditions, and that I was not the only one, though it should be no surprise to those who love waywards, we very often get the symtoms of thier mental disease, only we suffer the loss, while they are oblivios to pain, rolicking in fairyland, or on the planet pluto.

Sometime SB please diagnose me, me, me!!! I promise to respect your opinion, I allready do anyways. I can take it
End T/J

Stretch, this whole topic and the demonization that spouses go though is all so very normal, but part of the process you are going through. I know she has been on anti ds for a long time, but myself, I prefer changing the thoughts that get me deppressed at the source. Does your/her IC challange her thinking? Things like.."I am just so depressed because I will never feel differently again"...IC="Is that true? that you can never feel differently again? Why do you feel this way? What do you think when you feel that way? What thoughts get you to feel that way? Are those thoughts true?

We ussually have many thoughts that contribute to our deppresion and frustration that go off automatically in our subconscious, and they are thought habits, but they are rarely true, or a death sentence. If she is prone to them, whether its clinical or not, identifying the little negative lies will be a place you can help her, and release her from also, with the right IC. The counsel of many who love and care for her on the same page is the key here.

Medication can start the good thoughts, but its only a start, the truth that she is a wonderful work of Gods art will be the answer she needs to grab onto in her mind, and turn those negative thoughts around. I am afraid we all need that Stretch, and to know we are loved no matter what.

Keep up the good fight brother. Eyes on the prize.

CP and others - this is interesting to me, because I've had to set the record straight with my WW numerous times - in and out of the counseling sessions. She's never accused me of having a mental disorder of any kind, but it's the #$#$@# rewriting of history where this happened the most. She'd say something and I'd disagree and tell her my opinion. It felt like she was trying to put me in a certain box and I fought that all the way by trying to be assertive without DJs. I guess it was/is all part of her fantasy - that she never loved me, should've never married me, should've never had a kid, yada..yada...yada...yet I was the first guy 'good' enough to have a kid with....go figure..

Revisionist history.

The safety of our MC office has been helping us. Whatever recent married couple event we are disecting and processing can be really fresh. Its amazing how often we don't hear each other. Her retelling of the story is so filled with gaps, half truths, things that weren't said. But that's how she really remembers the story. Even when the event is from that very same morning. And I am surprised. I will tell the MC: "I did not use that word. I did not have that motivation. That was never said or felt or thought by me. Why does she remember the story so vividly that way?"

So imagine her telling her stories to a gullible audience. Where does that get her?

"He said this because he was thinking that."

"Oh my, I believe your story. What a crazy husband you must have...."

I do hear her more and more often saying little qualifiers like: "That's how I remember it... I know that's my crazy filter retelling that story... I know I am assuming his thoughts here when I really don't know them..."

CP - great advice for dpression btw. Thanks. "Change the thought habits!"

We usually have many thoughts that contribute to our deppresion and frustration that go off automatically in our subconscious, and they are thought habits, but they are rarely true, or a death sentence. If she is prone to them, whether its clinical or not, identifying the little negative lies will be a place you can help her, and release her from also, with the right IC. The counsel of many who love and care for her on the same page is the key here.

FWIW,

An error I identify over and over, in writings and in the "discussions" of others, is the attributing of thoughts to others without adequate evidence.

You all are talking about the issue of "she said this", which means "she thinks that", etc.

My mantra for newbies in my field is

"If you talk about it, you think about it. If you think about it, you talk about it."

And it shows up in writing and in conversation. The trick is to LISTEN and WATCH for it. Ahhh, that's the hard part, right?


Nope, that's kind of the easy part, if you know how to do it.

When it comes to your spouse, listen for repeating patterns! When you hear "nagging" - that is your clue that you have not truly HEARD the message. You have attributed the WRONG THOUGHT to the words the person is saying. This is a very simple concept.

You are hearing "nagging", the nagger is thinking

"my spouse is not listening to my message"

and you are thinking "why does my spouse keep saying the same thing over and over"

and the nagger is thinking
"why can't he figure this out - it is so simple".


So.....if you think your discussions/arguments are going in circles

YOU need to do one of two things:

1. If you are the nagger - then you need to figure out how to restate your message so that you are saying what you MEAN, and stop simply driving at that same nail. Sit down, and ask for just five minutes to talk about why that message is important to you. And whatever you do, do NOT repeat it the same way you have. Begin with, "I think I have been going at this the wrong way. I have been nagging (or harping) on this topic, and what I should have done is explain why I am concerned/ worried/ anxious..."

2. If you think your spouse is nagging - you need to sit your spouse down, and say, "We seem to be talking about X, and I don't think I have gotten the full picture of what your thinking is on the topic. Can you tell me why this is important to you, and give me the 'deep background' on it?" Then, SHUT UP and LISTEN.


Watch those discussions change.





Look at my body language and memory thread for revisionist history info.

SB

Oh, I forgot. I was going to tell the story of the box.

AndyM says that he feels that his wife was trying to put him into a certain kind of a box. I understand that feeling. My then-WH would say things like, "You ALWAYS do this" etc, and I would say that he had me in a box and I could not get out.

I called it the Bi*&% Box. I repeatedly asked him to take me out of the B-Box, because there was no way for us to work on things if my position was IN the box, and he was free to travel anywhere outside the box and keep me jailed.

Well, that reference would be brought out each time he used this strategy during our talks (at first it was very often, as he was unhappy with being held responsible for his affair - go figure). Over time, he realized exactly how much he did use this DJ, and how unfair he really was in his approach toward offering me a fair and open heart when we talked.

Recently, he disclosed yet...another....EA.....from a time long ago. I had pretty much known of it, yet it did bring its form of d-day with it, of course. He pulled the B-box out.


This time, I was pretty sick of it. I went to the garage, found a cardboard box, wrote BI*&% all over it. I taped it shut with duct tape, then tied it with twine. Then, I went up and thrust it into his hands, and told him that I would have time to discuss this with him when he had completely freed me from the box


and not one minute before.



I don't know where the box is.


We did discuss the issue.
I haven't heard anything utilizing this strategy during an argument ever again, nor any reference to the box....


SB