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I am very excited to say that DH and I had a LONG thorough conversation about *everything* last night.
We spent majority of the coversation on the infatuation with OM. We, also, talked about our marriage in general and all of my behaviors (which would constitute LB-ing).

I ought to say at the outset that he says that he STILL feels the same about how he should handle the situation with OM. I think, however, after our talk that he will (have no choice but to) look at OM differently...and DH will naturally withdraw from OM.

So I did not say the exact paragraph as outlined above BUT I covered all the bases. We started out talking about our marriage. I asked him if he noticed when things "changed" with me: when things changed in our marriage.

He did not hesitate; he knew EXACTLY when. I was truly surprised by that. His opinion on my change of behavior is that I was just beginning to "live a little". He thinks that I give myself too many restrictions; I have always been too constrained since childhood...and I deserve to explore. He was not (and will not) interfere. He sees what I am doing but he thinks I need to get it out and figure out what exactly it is I want out of life rather than what I am supposed to want (or what "other people" think I should want).

He says he wants me to be happy. In order for me to be happy, I MUST figure out for myself what I want...and he has to allow me the space to do that.
This is where we got to OM. I told him that he was aware of the infatuation and that I want OM: "What if I want [OM]?" I told DH that what he was telling me was that I should just follow whatever thoughts or feelings I was having including being with OM. He said, "Wrong." He is not telling me to act impulsively; he is telling me to really THINK about what I want and then act. He says, "I am the one who really loves you. I take care of you." Not OM.

DH is 100% certain that I will not cheat on him. He picked me because of who I am; he knows my character...and he knows I will not cheat. When he was choosing a woman to be his wife, he was choosing a woman (of virtue) and he is confident in his choice. He holds me in the highest esteem and he knows that I will make the right choices.

(I really love him for saying and believing that...but I was annoyed that he trust me more than I trust myself.)

I told him that I can guarantee him that if I continue down the path I was on, I will cheat on him. I guarantee it. He disagreed. Ok.
I said, "If you know I like [name], you don't bring him in our home, in my bedroom, put him in my bed, and say 'Good luck'. There is a difference between trust and stupidity...a difference between trust and burying your head in the sand." He said, "Wrong." He is not burying his head in the sand because he trusts my ability to make the right choice. He only gives me one rule (just one): not to **[SF]** someone else. He believes I will not do it. And he is never going to believe otherwise until I do it. I should talk to him after I do it.

At one point he said, "I don't know. Maybe this guy really opened your eyes or something..." He said if it was any other man, he'd have a problem with both me and OM. He said that "Luckily, I am not like that. If my friend slept with you, I wouldn't even be mad at him. I'd be mad at you." He said he has expectations of me that he does not have of his friends. He would be hurt and disappointed (if I failed). He has no expectations of his friends. He said the only way he would be mad at his friend is if the friend slept with his wife and didn't tell him. He expects his friend to say, "Hey man, I slept with your wife. Your wife is sh**." I said then what he is telling me is that he is choosing his friendship over his marital contract. He'd be mad at me but still be friends with the OM. He went on to say that he knows that friends will always choose themselves over you. I'd be the only one not meeting his expectations.

He said that OM was his friend before I decided to like him...and OM is still his friend. Should he lose all his friends...or only hang around fat, ugly, disgusting, unattractive people so his wife will not like them? I said that "Okay, so I [messed] up. I did not have up my guard up around OM, he was your friend and I wrongfully thought I didn't need to have my guard up. I had weak boundaries with him and I like him. So just this one friend...you have to protect your marriage against this one friend..." He said that it is my responsibilty to handle that-- not his. I said it is "our responsibilty" to protect "our marriage"...

The coversation went on and on in this fashion... We talked for a LONG time...

We did NOT argue. No AOs! I was pleased with that...


Me: WW
DH: BS
EA: 04/18/09 til
DDay: 06/30/10
NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
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How do you explain his odd thinking? What is behind that?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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He's not from this country [U.S.]?!? LOL

I don't know, Mel.

But I feel strange debating with him, trying to tell him my weaknesses, flaws, etc...and him trying to tell me I have none. Usually, we (people) try to prove our good qualities...not our bad qualities. *shrug*

What would you do at this point? Just focus on the RC?


Me: WW
DH: BS
EA: 04/18/09 til
DDay: 06/30/10
NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
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Hi Heartfelt!
Thanks for the hello on my thread! grin

I had to take a break but oh my goodness!
Are you ok? Seriously, I would be very very hurt by this conversation. hug

He has No expectations on his friends and wouldn't feel betrayed by them if they slept with you!!!! So he will keep friends even if they are trying to get you, he doesn't care, not his problem it is all you? faint OUCH!!!

And what the heck is all this talk about you need time to go find yourself? That is his answer for why you are unhappy in your marriage!!!!?????
(oh no, it can't really be me at all, I have no part... its all you, go find yourself and then you will really love me!!!)

Then followed by, I married you for who you are? I thought he just said you didn't know who you are, so which is it!

Heartfelt... I think you need to snoop on him. seriously. Just in case. I have been for 3 months without him knowing and it has been a relief and opened my eyes a ton to what is going on in his world.

What he says is talking in circles - I have traveled the world and don't buy that it is because he isn't American-

Something just seems off think

Yes, I would keep working on your side of the street. NO Love busting and would REPEAT that you know exactly who you are and what you want.
Try to get some UA time, work on RC and hey, maybe you should call the radio show as well!!!

I am off to get some sleep!


ME: 33 W DH: 39
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Sunshine,
I am not hurt by this conversation; I think I am numb to this sort of conversation. I have been having these sorts of conversations for many years where: I tell him how I feel or what I'm going to do...then he turns around to tell me how I actually feel and what I am really going to do. LOL

As for snooping, in the beginning I was not very trusting. I was like Nancy Drew. But I came up empty-handed. (I did not install any keylogger or VARs <-- terms I have learned by reading the SAA msg. board.) He comes directly home after work, is available by phone at all times, responds to my emails instantly. At one point, he started playing sports 2-3 nights a week but that's over for now. I gave up snooping and worrying since I couldn't find anything.

Now I am only worried about my behavior and what I am doing. I am sure that since I couldnt get my DH to "listen" or display the appropriate "emotions", I began to appreciate that (and the excitement) from OM. I want to make sure I re-establish appropriate boundaries and avoid LB-ing.

This week has been pretty good so I am hopeful. wink


Me: WW
DH: BS
EA: 04/18/09 til
DDay: 06/30/10
NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
2 lovely happy children

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So can you approach your dh from the point of view of asking for him help to be the person you want to be and be faithful completely?

I get the feeling that he would rather just pretend it isn't happening and leave it all on you so his life doesn't have to change and I don't think thats particularly supportive actually.


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Hi Rosy,

I did approach him from the point of view of helping me be a better wife and helping me to be faithful. He does not believe anything needs to change. He believes I am justified to feel however I feel about any man as long as I keep it to myself.

I don't think I can carry out MB principles if I cannot get DH on board. I can resolve to maintain better boundaries around the opposite sex...and try to fortify our marriage with RC and UA (before I have to deal with OM again).


Me: WW
DH: BS
EA: 04/18/09 til
DDay: 06/30/10
NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
2 lovely happy children

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heartfelt, do you think your husband is enamored of world views that tend towards moral neutrality, moral relativism and political correctness? I know people who seem to be very impressed with those worldviews and I wonder if your husband would fall into that category.

Would he be ok with it if you had an affair? What if you found someone you love more than him, would he endorse an affair?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Hmm...I do not have enough knowledge about those worldviews to assess whether or not my DH's beliefs fall within them. Having a cursory understanding of them, I would lean towards "yes" for moral relativism. (I'll ask him about it...)

Here is his primary belief: a person's number one goal in life is to be happy. Whatever you feel makes you happy (granted it is not so obviously morally bankrupt) is what you should be doing. If I really thought that I should leave him to be with another man who could make me happier than he could for the rest of my life, he would agree that I should leave him.

Of course, he does not think there is another man who could make me happy...and he expects for me to be a rational enough being to always come to this conclusion when I think things thru.

He doesn't care if I have EA (since he doesn't even accept that as real). He said that I should keep my thoughts and fantasies to myself. That's why we don't think out loud because it is only for us to know (he says).

I'm exhausted now. We didn't have a good weekend. I was going to talk to him about separating...but he decided to participate in a family activity without his usual attempt to avoid it. I considered that he was making an effort so I could do the same.


Me: WW
DH: BS
EA: 04/18/09 til
DDay: 06/30/10
NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
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Yesterday, DH came right home from work, did not greet me at all, ran out the door to play sports. It took 4 hours for the one game. I was in bed when he came home. He stayed up until 2am on his computer, then wanted to come to bed (w/o showering). I said "no". We slept apart.

This morning he says that he will be late getting home because the new sports season begins. I didn't bother to ask questions.

I know he is not cheating (yet). Sure. I believe he is doing what he says he is doing. The point is "he does not HEAR me". "He does not see me." He does not see/hear/understand that I have been asking for the time, for the understanding for the help...trying to be the best I can be.

I just don't want to do this.

I told him about this infatuation...so he would open his eyes, maybe he would help me. But no. He thinks he is perfect. He gives too much to this marriage already. I am spoiled and needy. He said that he didn't know I would require all of this attention so many years later. *laugh*

Well, I don't need to require any attention from him.

When is the right time to separate? Maybe a separation (or Plan B) would give us both the space to (1) get on with life apart or (2) realize what we are missing.

I just have no idea what to do.


Me: WW
DH: BS
EA: 04/18/09 til
DDay: 06/30/10
NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
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Did you read the article When to Call it Quits? [Newsetter section]

I know you said you don't think he is having an affair, but there are so many oddities here that I think you should do some snooping and rule it out.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Yes heartfelt!
I am sorry for the weekend hug

I agree with Melody Lane and said it before... even if you find nothing, snoop anyways!!!!

I am still trying to decide what I think about the whole, whatever makes you happy stuff.... not sure what to say about it except it all seems a little odd to me.


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Good morning, ladies. Sorry for my "outburst" yesterday but I was quite frustrated. DH and I had a brief argument and I just stopped talking to him at all. He wanted to fix everything and never argue again so he kept reaching out to communicate with me about what the problem is.

We had a(nother) talk. I wrote down specifically what issues I think we could work on as a couple...and what issues I could work on personally. I asked him to write specific solutions. He declined to put any solutions in writing...since I would have something to throw in his face (which he cannot handle). He said that the solution is simple: he just won't do any of the things that I have on the list to eliminate the potential for arguments.

He's taking me seriously. We just need a very specific plan to follow to make new habits (to bring more romantic love) in this relationship...if we are going to escape this rut.

Mel, I will search for the article you listed. Thank you.

Thank you both!! smile


Me: WW
DH: BS
EA: 04/18/09 til
DDay: 06/30/10
NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
2 lovely happy children

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Originally Posted By: heartfelt_1


He's taking me seriously. We just need a very specific plan to follow to make new habits (to bring more romantic love) in this relationship...if we are going to escape this rut.



I agree you need a specific plan. Get the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love along with these 2 books, Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs. Follow the lessons outlined in there. That is a plan that really does work. The most important thing you can do for your marriage is follow the policy of undivided attention. [there is a worksheet for that in the workbook] undivided attention


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I read the article "When to call it quits?" It is right on point. I want change or there must be drastic action. I have to put myself in a position (financially) where I am able to separate if need be.

I told DH yesterday that I want a "romantic marriage" for the rest of my life and I would not accept anything less. I told him that I am 100% certain that if I can't have a romantic marriage, I don't want a marriage at all. We will be part of the 20%. laugh

I will pick up the Workbook today from Barnes and Noble (if it is available). I have HNHN and we've been through the Lovebusters.


Me: WW
DH: BS
EA: 04/18/09 til
DDay: 06/30/10
NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
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Originally Posted By: heartfelt_1
...Well, what do you know...DH friend sent me a random text yesterday out of the blue (some song lyrics) and I answered. D*** it! He *never* sends me texts. What is he trying to pull? And why...ugh...didn't. I. Ignore. Him. Oh, I know why...I need an exorcism...
heartfelt_1, I felt the need to copy this from the original thread where I posted it to you.

You don't need an exorcism, you need to change your phone # so DH's friend won't be able to text you again.

MarriageBuilders is not some kind of hocus-pocus. It's real, specific actions. If you want to kill an infatuation that you know is improper & detrimental to your marriage, then you need to take actions that will kill it. No-contact is that action. Not passive no-contact of the "I hope he won't contact me [but secretly hope he might]" variety. Rather, proactive no-contact, as in taking concrete actions to cut off channels of contact.

You either take the actions, or you're just talkin' it, not walkin' it.

P.S. Y'know what, heartfelt_1? I started talking with my OW about music. She was one of the singers along with me on the church music team. I wasn't even infatuated with her when it started. It was just harmless talking about music. Or so thought I.

Foretold is forewarned.


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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Heartfelt, if you are serious about this you need to follow GloveOil's advice. Change your phone number. Imagine you were an alcoholic and someone kept offering you booze (just one sip, how could it hurt). Obviously it can.

If you need some motivation, then get yourself one of those iPhones or something.

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dontknow I am mortified...that I am STILL here with this guy. Though I even fear coming over to the SAA forum, I think I am going to have to move my thread. grumble

Gloveoil and Happy, I know.

I am really like this alcoholic. I cannot believe...myself.

DH and I have BOTH been trying this week, focusing on all of the things we have been talking about. The last few days have been great. DH thanked me last night because he sees that I am trying (he says) and I see that he is trying.

The bookstore did not have The Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook so I had to order it. It will be delivered to my house in the next few days.


Me: WW
DH: BS
EA: 04/18/09 til
DDay: 06/30/10
NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
2 lovely happy children

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Originally Posted By: heartfelt_1
dontknow I am mortified...that I am STILL here with this guy. Though I even fear coming over to the SAA forum, I think I am going to have to move my thread. grumble

Gloveoil and Happy, I know.

I am really like this alcoholic. I cannot believe...myself.

DH and I have BOTH been trying this week, focusing on all of the things we have been talking about. The last few days have been great. DH thanked me last night because he sees that I am trying (he says) and I see that he is trying.

The bookstore did not have The Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook so I had to order it. It will be delivered to my house in the next few days.
Trying? Not so fast. Let's go back to this issue re: DH's friend...

Do you think he's a distaction to you in your idle moments?
Do you spend time thinking, "if he says X to me, I'll say Y?"
Do you feel hesitant about mentioning your feelings to your DH?
I could go on with the questions, but I'll stop there. You get my drift.

If the answers to all or any of the above are "yes", then you've got a problem that you can't bury.
Reading the books & trying to communicate better & express your needs & meet his needs is not gonna work, because there'll be this unspoken "what-if" inside your mind, preventing the kind of crystal-clear honesty & completeness of effort that you need to devote to saving & restoring a marriage.

When I was a few weeks into my (at the time) EA, it got to the point where I could see where it was headed. So I resolved to end it. Even went so far as to tell OW it had to end. Took my wife away to a B&B for her birthday weekend out in the country, and we spent some great time together. I thought I'd beaten the infatuation.

But when I got back, OW resumed calling, and I resumed taking her calls. And in another couple of weeks, my resolve was gone. PA. For the upstanding, church-going, family-man. You'd never have guessed until it was too late.

And y'know what? The following month, OW's husband asked her to go away with him on a research trip to New York. He was asking her to spend time with him. He didn't know about her affair with me then, and he must've thought that her previous affair with an ex-BF was "only" an emotional affair. But he knew his marriage was in trouble, and he was making an affort. And his effort in going on that trip went in one ear & out the other. Because his wife was hedging her bets by having me as her secret affair partner. And her effort (if you could call it that) was also compromised by this. And my effort with my wife? I felt at the time that it was sincere; but it was undermined -- I undermined it myself -- through my concealing of my conflicted emotions (i.e., not coming completely clean to my wife & by not cutting OW out of my life completely at that time). I was hedging my bets. And that is an invitation to disaster.

Its good that you & H are communicating more. But you can't be half-way about it. You can't hedge your bets & still save your marriage. You can't cultivate secret infatuations & still save your marriage. You can't expect your H to believe that you're committed, when he can surely sense that something is amiss, even if he can't put a finger on it. And you can't expect that his efforts toward you will appear to you in the best light, if you continue to allow yourself to mentally contrast them with some half-real, half-fantasy guy (husband's friend), with whom reality (the place your husband occupies in your life) can't compete on a level field. You can't try to put some MarriageBuilders principles into action & expect a great result while flagrantly contravening other principles. That's like a cancer patient trying to exercise to get in shape. You can train for months & build up your cardiovascular endurance to a point, but if you don't take care of the softball-sized tumor in your chest cavity, eventually & in the not too distant future, you ain't gonna run well or feel well, or be in good shape, or live long.

"Trying?" You can talk, or you can do. As Yoda said in the movies, "There is no 'try'."


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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Originally Posted By: GloveOil

Do you think he's a distaction to you in your idle moments?
Do you spend time thinking, "if he says X to me, I'll say Y?"


Yes, once in awhile...but it is much less than before. frown Sometimes I am able to replace it with other thoughts (not all the time).

Originally Posted By: GloveOil

Do you feel hesitant about mentioning your feelings to your DH?


No. The only one thing I have managed to do was expose the infatuation to my DH. Lucky [alcoholic] me, DH doesn't care. It's his friend and he is determined to keep the friend.

smh My DH just doesn't understand who he is dealing with. He doesn't understand that I could be so weak. Nor does he understand that his friend can look him in the face practically everyday and still interfere with his life.

Originally Posted By: GloveOil

If the answers to all or any of the above are "yes", then you've got a problem that you can't bury.


I was trying to bury it. Yes.
"Burying it" is NOT a MB concept. Right.

It did cross my mind that if I "just stay away from him" (the friend) and focus my energies on adding romantic love to my marriage (falling in love with my DH again), this could all just go away. Besides DH doesn't acknowledge it as an affair...so we could fix our marriage and this could all just go away. And I felt I was doing okay here recently.

Originally Posted By: GloveOil

When I was a few weeks into my (at the time) EA, it got to the point where I could see where it was headed. So I resolved to end it. Even went so far as to tell OW it had to end. Took my wife away to a B&B for her birthday weekend out in the country, and we spent some great time together. I thought I'd beaten the infatuation.


Yes. This is what is happening for me. (Well, I have NEVER talked to DH friend about any feelings I have for him...as I have been advised against it.)

But, it seems, I can never get it right as long as the possibilty of his friend being near me/communicating with me is out there.

Originally Posted By: GloveOil

As Yoda said in the movies, "There is no 'try'."


I love Yoda! smile

Last edited by heartfelt_1; 08/19/11 08:43 AM. Reason: typo

Me: WW
DH: BS
EA: 04/18/09 til
DDay: 06/30/10
NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
2 lovely happy children

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