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Interesting
Joel Olstien the preacher was saying we had to talk to our mountains to turn them into molehills and not just ask them to be removed we must act

A counselor for complicated grief says we must deal with those sub personalities that emerge in times of fear and loss by talking to them

My dad used to say people who talked to themselves were either crazy or had money in the bank,(joke,eccentric )

The theme is clear, we have to deal with stuff, it may not be fair, but it's our stuff nonetheless

Guidance is needed

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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
How's it going, Stretch? Since you last posted of 05 August, and we amateur shrinks have been debating and expounding on depression, an entire weekend has passed.

Was there any progress on your personal front?
LOL. Thanks NG.

And thank you everyone for all the thread activity. Even the amateur shrinks talking about depression. I read it all.

An update from Stretch....

Spent the past two weekends enjoying the summer. First, at my wife's family reunion. Then last weekend up north on the Canadian Border (shout out... Reynolds) with oldest son and his Scout Troop.

Wife and I are trying hard. Working on filling each other's needs. I sense her making effort to discover herself and work on her own depression. I sense an effort to engage in the relationship.

All that being said, I wonder why it feels "forced". I truly enjoy my life changes, the way I am able to be a better Dad on Scout trips, and a better Dad and Husband around the house. Listening to her, being interested in her thoughts and ideas. I am trying to give her big and full pieces of Stretch. Sharing, engaged, vulnerable, H&O.

So.. all that being said... I am just worried and I sense she just isn't all that into me. When she exhibits a new behavior, it feels forced. She is still annoyed by me too much. I am "needy... dependant... manipulative... controlling..." I get these types of descriptions when I "ask how I can help..." "text her to tell her about the day.." "call to check in..." "seek time at home to share and give each other attention..."

I texted a lot from Scout camp. "this is what your son is doing.... This is fun... wish you were here... how are you..." and sent her photos "here is your son on a canoe.... here is the troop on the lake... " I just want to share the experience. My goal is to share something that delights me and I hope will delight her too.
But she is annoyed by it. I am �too dependent and too needy.�

I really want a hug and kiss when I get home. But it is not forthcoming. I like to have an embrace and affection in bed before going to sleep. That really irritates her. I want a hug and kiss in the morning before going off to work. Her interpretation is I just want too much attention like a pet cat.

�Needy... Attention...Dependant.�

Right now this is what I am filtering all that as: She just ain't into me anymore. She is finally trying to restore love but doesn't feel drawn back. I am trying too hard perhaps. But I can't shake the bad feeling that once it�s gone and she doesn't "feel it" anymore then it�s gone.

All the nice things I try to do... romantic, thoughtful, simple and breezy, caring, attentive... she finds a way in her mind to dislike them. And make me an enemy.

It takes some amount of effort on her part to keep on complaining about her husband. We went from Stretch 1.0: "He ignores me and the kids/ uses DJ's to talk to me/ puts me down/ forgets my birthday/ talks about himself too much and doesn't ask about me/ is selfish in wanting too much sex/ watches too many sports/ works too many long hours..." and now we are at the opposite with Stretch 2.0 : "He wants to talk too much/ he shares too much/ he wants to give me affection without asking for sex too often/ he is texting me sweet notes too often/ he tries too hard with the gifts he gives me/ he is at home too often and not at work enough/ he is dependant and needy."

Better said, (I am afraid and in a moment of despair here), but better said, "She is just not into me. And really not into this relationship."

Maybe getting that out there would be more honest. Perhaps she avoids that because she is caring for me too much. She doesn't want to be the heartbreaker. It�s a hell of a lot easier to find a million faults. When the truly bad faults are fixed and dealt with... start moving onto petty little things that just point out that you don't like this person much anymore. However, I think it�s easier for her to continue to believe and try to convince herself that I am an awful person with secondary motivations. When I am honestly motivated by love, caring and a belief in romantic love. It hurts to want to be honest and vulnerable and deposit Love Units and just receive these awful characterizations back.

All right y'all. That was a pissy desperate rant. I am feeling miserable. I don�t feel very loved.

Let me have it !!!

Last edited by stretch123; 08/15/11 11:08 PM.

Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Your plight sounds familiar and, to me, it sounds like there's a third "thing" there that is holding your wife in limbo. Either

1. Memories of old OM or another OM is in the picture
2. A toxic friend
3. Disbelief in your motives/sincerity
4. Depression

Are you guys still seeing the marriage counselor?

As you said, you texted a lot and she found it irritating. There is a fine line there between being there and being needy, you almost need a woman's perspective there. Maybe take an honest look at your actions and see if there is a tiny bit of merit in your wife's complaints? I'm not saying there are, just tossing that out there.

It sounds like she's just pissed off at something internal and is using whatever she can to deflect. But you already guessed that.

Are you sure there isn't an OM in the picture? She sounds foggy.




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SHe seems less and less foggy. Too much texting is a valid feeling. I think I did it too many times. There is a difference between being genuinely enmeshed and in a relationship where you share that much versus just trying too hard.

My PC believes I may be trying too hard.

Yes we see a MC together once a week. And hopefully the EP's are working and there is no OM. Indeed, that doesn't mean she still thinks of him and still fights the fog.

But I believe her fog is more based on understanding herself. She explains that she is learning how to stop the noise in her head, recognizing her "filters" that get in the way of seeing and hearing me, working on her reactions to her surroundings and just plain becoming more effective.

She is trying a lot of things to change her life and routine. Trying to achieve a few tasks each day, trying to "de-clutter" flat surfaces (counters/desks/table) and that one is something I have wanted for 15 years.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Originally Posted by Northwood8900
1. Memories of old OM or another OM is in the picture
2. A toxic friend
3. Disbelief in your motives/sincerity
4. Depression
You are still very insightful NW!

1.I can't say for sure that old OM memories are fully processed and understood for what they were.
2.There is plenty of bad advice out there. Including best friends and professionals and published books. I concentrate on that a lot and it just gets me nowhere. Best to share advice we've heard or read and process it together without DJ's. I still don't trust her BF's are much help, not sure about her PC either.
3. ABsolutley. I talk about this with her a lot. Gosh it hurts to have your motives and sincerity twisted and thrown back at you in some awful way.
4. Well aware of that. I think she may be finally, really working on that. And not using husband as the scapegoat for every depressed feeling.

Originally Posted by Northwood8900
It sounds like she's just pissed off at something internal and is using whatever she can to deflect. But you already guessed that.
Yes, I believe there is a big measure of that. I think she does too. I suppose I've pointed that out in DJ ways. But you followed my thread -- it just had to be done. She is indeed confused and mad about something internal. Defelection, defensivenes, justification.... those are all tricks employed to avoid hard work on oneself.

I belief we are making progress.

"Always forward but never in a straight line"


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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I like it she is working on those cluttering filters


All of us have to be diligent in doing that huh?

Challenge the feelings that try to guide our thought life like they knew from one experience, how all of them would turn out

It must be that reflex reaction, we can totally justify, that brings us to negative judgements.

I'm all for flipping those negative thoughts the bird, glad you guys are too

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Last night we talked a long time. Probably too long.

But one thing she did say is: "I am not listening to that noise. I am trying to ignore those filters in my head."


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Stretch,

As you probably know, I am a BW. However, my FWH tried "too hard" at one point when he was making amends in our recovery. I wanted some space, just wanted things to be more relaxed and just plain "normal" - if that makes sense!

We sat down and talked about this. He was waiting on me hand and foot. Now, don't get me wrong, a girl could get used to this smile BUT, it got old fast. It was like overkill. It became like EVERYTHING was a reminder of the affair!

At some point, I wanted some relief from that. I wanted there to be spaces between where there was calmness, a natural flow of easiness for us, where the loving exchanges were just a part of what occurred, and not something contrived because we were "supposed to do them".


I don't know if you have read that book I recommended. It puts this concept of meeting emotional needs into a perspective that makes it a natural part of who you are. So you do not feel that "forced" feeling - it helps you recognize the true moments and opportunities that come along, those that are "real", and perhaps which will make more meaningful contributions to what your wife will see in terms of your deeper relationship. I think it made changes in me that were much more fundamental as a person, and therefore meeting those EN's comes more naturally - as a part of the flow of daily life.


My H and I found a rhythm in meeting EN's. It did not come quickly. It did feel forced at first.


SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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This is my latest belief.

We are at a cross roads. And both will lead to excellence and happiness. Either together as a wonderful couple in a great realtionship... or separately. I know we can both be happy in either direction. I am confident I will be. (not so sure she will handle D very well - kind of like Andy - but I will choose to accept that it might make her happier. The small person inside me wants to believe she will be a train wreck)

Anyway, I am pessimistic right now about the ultimate success of our marriage. And its because of her frankly. She said, "I am keeping one foot out the door because I don't see you readily meeting my needs and integrating and caring for the whole family. Old history can be forgiven, but every week there is something you do that creates new pain."

She is not fully committed to a recovery plan or path. Kind of in limbo.

My belief recently has become that she just plain left the marriage too long ago and now its too hard to admit that she lost attraction, really dislikes my presence, mannerisms, the way I walk, talk, breath. Its too hard to admit that... so a lot of mental effort goes into labelling, explaining why I am awful, pinpointing mistakes that need to be "fixed" and rearranging my presumed feelings and motivations into something awful.

The other reason I am pessimistic is because I am now comfortable with Divorce. Imagining it... planning it. That has been against every fiber of my DNA programing for 40 years! Now I think its okay. Sh*t.

Last edited by stretch123; 08/18/11 02:59 PM.

Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Well, stretch...

You might lay out a Plan A---> Plan B scenario.

It sounds like she continues Love Busting you (AO's, SD's, DJ's), and probably isn't meeting your needs, either.

If she can't do her part in creating romantic love in your marriage, it will never be safe from adultery.

Depression is the crutch she leans on to justify her neglect and abuse.

6 months Plan A, making known you will not continue to be neglected/abused... and Plan B.


Don't take my word for it, though.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Trial separation may be appropriate. My shoulders are big. I can wait until after the holidays for a trial separation.

We've only had "real and honest" work since about May 1st. Everyhting before D Day was bullsh*t. The next 3 months after exposure were foggy bullsh*t.



Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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stretch,

Dont forget that Dr H says it takes 2 years to fully recover. You have acknowledged and are addressing your failings in the M. You are doing your part. Do you have EP's in place?

So stretch 2.0 isnt always hitting the target. Go to stretch 2.1. What else is there to do?


BS (me) 49
WW 49
married 6 years
dday1 8/23/10 NC 9/3/10
NC broken 12/10
dday2 2/6/11
NC2 3/5/11
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Wrote her a love letter today.



Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Difficult couple of days. Might be at a crossroads.
I gave her the love letter. And said I am going to spend six months showing her the best Stretch she could have.

Basically, I have decided to go for Plan A again. (the no doormat vesion this time)

She says she has "one and a half feet out the door." SO I don't think we're in recovery. And I am back to Plan A.

I wish I had the energy to post more tonight. There is a lot to say and explain. I don't have the energy right now. But perhaps tomorrow.

Just wanted to share this: I am strengthened up and going for Plan A -- the goal being to get her to want full effort at Recovery.

The A is over. Done. Old news. NC and EP's. But she is not fully in M Recovery. I can't get my EN's met right now. So here comes Plan A. Followed by Plan B.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Originally Posted by stretch123
She says she has "one and a half feet out the door."

Dare I ask what your response to this drivel was?

Little childish threats/mind games/word salads like that never sat well with me. Either crap or get off the pot. Some big girl pants are sorely needed, apparently, but I suppose no one is there to hold her accountable for anything "wrong" in her life...correct?





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Good for you, Stretch! She either gets on the bus with a man who is commuted to creating a loving, romantic marriage, or she gets left at the station holding the ticket.

Kudos to you, brother.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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We need a full marriage.

Excellence awaits us on either path. Full marriage or full divorce. A deeper love / true intimacy / rewarding relationship that very few people get to understand. I like my therapist. He has been married 26 years. I like our Marriage Counselor. He has been married 36 years. Both of them believe in a successful marriage. This is not about negotiating some kind of truce... managing the enemy spouse... standing up for your rights in the marriage... blah, blah, etc. This is about building romantic love and intimacy.

I am not sure about her new therapist. I think her therapist talks about strategies to get your needs met, and finding your voice, and "good" divorces and trial separations. I told both my therapists that I do not want any talk of S or D for the next 6 months. If they aren't on-board with coaching us to win.... I will go get the yellow pages. What she does with her therapist is not up to me. But I have stated what I intend to do.

So....
Why Plan A? Because she is not in the marriage. She does not have romantic feelings.

So, I will be my best for six months... my EN's may not be met. I am prepared for that. I really need to watch over our children too. There is unhappiness in the home and they can feel it. Mom is not well and they react to that.

I don't expect her to fulfill my EN's completely. She has said she will not do anything that is not honest to her heart. So, I will need to have strength. I have asked for one hour a day for my intense exercise workouts. Those help me a lot.

She will get to see the best husband and father she could have.

Then Plan B will be dark and serious if she does not have both feet in the door with a full commitment.

At least we have killed the A. In reality and in her mind. I will continue with EP's. But that's a big step.

I am going to start a new thread soon


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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I am going to start a new thread soon

Good idea, Stretch. You probably should put it on the "In Recovery" board only because this site has no "Seriously Deluded Spouse" board.

I'm not trying to be cruel. I do see your pain, and have watched you migrate to a position of understanding that the cause -> effect chain was most likely emotional flaw -> EA and not the other way around.

I don't envy you, and I wish I had more to offer.

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Do you think we are both deluded?

She states that she is ready to Separate. I think she is a mess honestly. But clearly she does not feel well.

I believe she can find romantic love for me again. Delusional? Perhaps. There is a spark of caring and love down in there. Break away the delusion and bad advice and maybe she falls in love with me.

So tonight, Day 1, I felt horrible this evening after putting the kids to bed. Even though she was peaches and cream all day. I started to obsess about the letter I wrote her. When you write something deep and motivated by your true love, it is painful for that to be doubted.

"Its a lot of words"
"It sounds like the ideal yet unobtainable marriage"
"You have a lot of coaching on-line to help you write the right words."
"You have training as a salesman."

I am in shock. I wanted to go to her with my pain. But I will calmly state my feelings in the morning. This evening, I called my sister, she talked me off a cliff, reminded me of plan A. No blubbering and whining. And told me I was supposed to do my one hour work out. So I did. Feel better now. Tomorrow I will tell her again calmly that I expressed my true feelings. It hurts that she cannot believe in me. I am sad and sorry.

"A salesman? Gets a lot of coaching to write the correct words?"

Really?!?!


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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6 months.

180 days.

This will be done 1 day at a time, Stretch.

You win, you succeed, no matter what.

If you do you best Plan A for 6 months and this is what you are still living with, then you make your next decision.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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