none of the A happend at work or with a collegue if that we the case there would be no discussion, he just created the lies using work realted things to cover them. he lied about everything and even to them. the actor that he became is quite surprising.

hence the multitude of triggers.

we could move quit our jobs and open a penny candy store in NH or sell it all and by a boat in the keys. yes we could. now this is where my taker comes out ( not often but here we go).

I have a great job, spectacular freinds and why should i give up what i have worked so hard for. its unlikely i will do as well in another state, part of my success is my connection to the community.

and we would not do as well as we are doing in our current situation, could i give that all up yes but do i really want to at this point no, i am so unsure of my life right now to throw it all up in the air seem foolish- my mom used to say when everything is a mess look for the one thing that you can count on. my job and my friends are that for me.

he could change jobs yes. but we are alway going to have baby momma hanging out there. its a very hard dilemma for me to deal with.

"The most valuable thing my H does is that he is persistently AND consistently gentle and reassuring."

what does this look like?

My H just gets devastated that i am sad, he is really to the point when he makes comments about how is "ruining my life, i did this and i cant fix it, i am trying but it will never go away, i know you would be better without me"... on and on. nice right- then i feel bad for him. these conversations are hard to respond to.

this comment bothered me "i know you would be better without me"-what do YOU want the out?- i know this wasnt said this way- but remember i am hypersensitive now- and has trouble epressing anything- so at least i am getting some emotions.

ugghh this just really stinks and i am a slow eater so eating the cold poop sandwich is hard.

and really this is all just in my head, he is doing everything to make this work. putting it out on the table for him is hard bc he doesnt know how to fix it.

Wow, it sounds like he is really feeling guilty for the pain he is causing you....

My WH *never* said that to me. I don't think he ever felt that badly because he has such a sense of entitlement. He just avoided me when I was feeling sad.

In any case, I am sorry you are being triggered. Just remember, this is all still pretty new. Three months ago was your last d-day? The first year is ROUGH. You are actually doing OK ~ don't be so hard on yourself. {{chicka}}

I know I have already TJ'd here before, but I wanted to just tell you that I saw an attorney about a D today ~ I would give anything to avoid this for my kids and when I read your update the first thing that came to my mind is I would give anything for my H to be as remorseful and willing to protect me as yours is...and for Dr Harley to have given me the feedback that he gave to you (that he has a lot of hope for your M). Don't know if that makes you feel any better...but thought it was worth a shot

Hang in there, chicka.

i still want the answer to this..

"The most valuable thing my H does is that he is persistently AND consistently gentle and reassuring."

what does this look like?

susie--it does make me feel better, and i wish that i could help you, you are doing a great job and regardless where things end up you can say you held your high, you fought and you did what was right. you are my neighbor so come over for a vino (i still think). could you imagine!

as a child of divorce with a remarkable mom, like you. i am fine i grew up with no resentment for my father ( basically a drunk that had no interest), just be supportive reassuring and no bad mouthing. and explain everything!! my brother, didnt do as well as i did drank at 12- and is 4 years sober last month ( very hard)- but the 2 of us sat at my dying fathers and reasuured him he would not die alone ( this was 6mos after the greatest woman in the world lost her battle) he was alert and shocked and signed over all proxy to me after asking about my mom and how she died - he and my mom divorced when i was 3 and i barely saw him for 30 years (funny side bar - child support $1.90 per week- never paid) but with a strong woman as a role model, which you are for your kids, they will be fine. just listen to them and talk openly. D is not great but its not the end of the world just a different begining.

now i am not saying this is what i want for you but your children will be ok. so back to work!


i dont know what is lucky in any of this, yes do i think that i am a bit lucky(makes me want to puke that i actually admit that)- but i also have a h that boffed 8millon girls, so whos lucky i think the grass always greener but you dont want to mow your neighbors lawn.

i was also lucky that the crazy one emailed me otherwise who would have known, i was lucky she was crazy and scared the crap out of him.. and she was crazy and he wanted out, also lucky that there was no emotional attachment to any of them. but who does that make my H?? what kinda person does that? so lucky--- i dont know. sometime i feel that people here wont even go there with me bc its so f up. and they are like dam shes crazy for staying

ahh the entiltlement issue- i have a very hard time with this. what makes you think if you are unhappy you can do what you want....i really have a huge issue with this one and it may be the problem in the future. this probably will come up often on my thread.

thank you to MB and to all you who are going thru you own thing to take the time to help others out.

you are all remarkable!

Hey, Chickadee, I'm in Europe, so just now reading your reply posts.

You asked what does it look like when I say that the one truly most valuable thing my husband does is to be persistently and consistently gentle and reassuring....

Well, I have not followed all the rules of recovery, mainly the one where Harley says to STOP talking about the adultery. I had angry outbursts, often seemingly out of the blue. I would get terrible thoughts in my head while I was still barely waking up, shove the sheets aside, and run out of bed and downstairs, very angry. H would always wake up and follow me. Sometimes I wished he just died instead of doing this to me. I told him this. I told him things like I wish I had never met you. In light of all these challenges to my H, he never responded in kind. Instead he told me that I was the best thing that had ever happened to him and that he wanted to become the kind of husband I would fall in love with.

When I hit him in my unguarded frustration, he would hold my arms then wrap his arms around me and tell me he loved me and was sorry he brought this into our lives. He said if I left him, he would spend the rest of his life proving to me he had changed. He always took full responsibility for the adultery,(it happened during a long deployment) said he was a fool, but that he was determined never to be that man again. When I told him I hated him and came up with plans of separation, he asked me, always quietly, to please stay, because how could he prove his changes from so far away. I sometimes expected him to say something like, "FINE, if you feel that way, GO! I can't live like this anymore." He never said that to me.

He never raises his voice with me. Just last month, I went through a few bad days where I hated what he did and thought how I could leave and how the separation could be managed. He told me yet again in a quiet gentle voice that he very much wants me to stay in his life and promises he will make it worth my while. Always in a gentle voice.

He tells me frequently every single day that he loves me, that he is IN love with me, although I have not been able to say the same to him in many months. He's not allowing any of my guardedness let him stop doing what he wants to show me.

He never runs from my hurt but always does his best to comfort me.

He is so different from what he used to be. I told him that it will take me a long time to actually believe the changes were real, but he has been so consistent in this new behavior that I'm beginning to wonder if it's maybe real after all. I was concerned at first that maybe it was just a part of the "chase to get me back." And once he got me back, he'd go back to what he used to be. I can tell him all this and he still stays gentle and loving with me.

The other thing he has done is to be much more open and honest. For example, a few months ago, I was very very sad alternating with anger. You know the feeling of the roller coaster. He didn't dodge the bullet but talked this over with me. Finally, when we were done with the talking and the weeping, he told me he would love to make love, that he so much wanted to make that connection. I was stunned by his honesty about this, because he laid himself out emotionally to be rebuffed, since he didn't know if I would accept or reject. I found that pretty eye-opening. The "old" H would have kept his pride and not said anything at all; he would have had an attitude that he would do better once I'd calmed down.

As to moving, it sounds like you would lose a great deal. If it's not a necessary requirement, then stay put. Maybe you and he could take some time off and get away for a couple of weeks.

Just hang in there. Let your H pursue you and prove himself. Do your best to meet each others needs and get plenty of UA time. That's pretty much all we have.

I heard your H on the radio show a few months ago and was struck by how sorry he sounded. He needs to keep up the openness and honesty in everything. I never heard until the Harleys talked about it that complaining is GOOD. So he needs to be honest about how he feels about whether he feels his needs are being met, instead of taking what he thought was the "easy way out" and getting them met elsewhere. Once he gets into the habit of honesty, it should become easier for him over time to let you know so you can make adjustments.

Reading your previous posts is helping me in my personal recovery. Thanks!

51- i feel better he is doing all of these things, so i guess i may need more. the problem is i dont know what will make me feel better. and it just heartbreaking for him that i am hurt- but he know it his doing. spoke to therapist with H and we are going to work on some techniques to help with the triggers.

she loves mb and what it has done for us. and in her 30 years of practicing she has not seen anything like us, which i take as a testament to MB.

also loves the book leadership and self deception that i gave her. thanks again. 4 people have read since sunday.

itstough- i have read your posts and i am with you on alot of things! sometime i just watch and dont post bc someone else will be feeling the way i am and i just gather from them, i hope you are well and whats going on?

Chickadee, You are going through what we all go through when our spouses commit adultery. My husband often asked me what could he do to make it better, and there truly was nothing at all that he could do more than what he was already doing.

The only "easier" solution would have been to leave and gain my peace that way. It's hard to go through recovery.

Because my FWH is so on board with MB principles, I no longer think about leaving, (as of just three weeks ago) but every time we make love, I have to work at shoving the thoughts out of my mind of my H and OW making love. It's very very hard even when they are doing all they can to earn forgiveness.

When I posted in the recovery thread, people told me that what I was going through was normal and that it takes time. As I said earlier, I believe I have only just in the last week or so "turned the corner."

My H has been sorry for many months now. He really can't be any sorrier. There is no way to take back what he did, although he longs for there to be some way. The only thing he can do now is to do his part in creating a better marriage and to keep up the EPs. I would have been happy to keep our "old" and good-enough marriage, but I wasn't given that choice, and neither were you.

Keep your mind focused as much as possible on the present. We can't change our past.

You might have heard of the five stages of grief? I know I have already gone through Denial. It took some time before the knowledge of the adultery really sunk in. When that happened, I alternated between the next three stages: Anger, Depression, and Bargaining. That was horrible, too. I'd wake up and feel either one of these ways, and then swing back and forth throughout the day. It was very hard to get control over my emotions during this time.

I think I'm finally in the stage of Acceptance, which is a stage in itself. It's when we realize that life has to go on. The loss is still felt, but the intensity lessens. This is where we learn to cope with the loss. I believe it was Pepperband who said once that recovery is a journey, not a destination. We have to keep pointing ourselves there.

what made you turn the corner?

had a bad week, just very down, then pissed. all the same rollercoaster emotions, blah blah blah.

totally going thru all of the stages,but i dont think i hit denial at all, there was not denying it at all.

just retweaking our needs, i am having trouble with it though, i cant figure out what i need to make me feel better!!! believe me if i knew i would say it!

H is having some job revelations... may pack it in.... this will be our topic of discussion on our trip, leaving tomorrow AM for the coast of maine, out running the hurricane.

any thoughts about the job situation, His job requires he do all of these events, thats where they smooze and get work. well thats also where he got in trouble, so part of the EP are no events without me. this poses a problem, some events are strictly men (those longstanding hemanwomanhaterer assocations). Also the more he keeps saying that he cannot attend, the bosses are not going to be happy, since thats what he was hired to do. He works in a male dominated he-man industry, so wives taging along is not common.

i personally dont care what they think and would go, but in addition to my events, we would be out 5 nights a week, and thats no good. Plus taking off work to play golfoutings each week, doesnt help my job.

i dont think that this is his only reason for thinking about packing it in.

he has also changing emotionally (yes i said that) and in his business there is no room for warm and fuzzy. its all a game, hence how his secret second life fit in so perfectly, well the game is over and he is adjusting and realizing that he may not like to play the game at work anymore.

We will be in a car for over 8 hours and away for 7days, so plenty of time to discuss.

should i move my thread?

Since the affairs are over and your H has committed to EPs and building a romantic relationship with you, I suggest that, yes, you should hit "Notify" and move your thread to Recovery.

Well, as to what made me turn the corner--time....just time. I still have my down days, absolutely. I hate them. I still have resentment at times, too. I hate that, too. It takes all I have to squash it all somewhere in my head, and I'm often not real great at that. Just walking up the stairs in our house this past weekend made me vividly remember the night I found out. That night after I heard all about "soul mate" and the rest of the horror, I walked up the stairs very slowly to get ready for bed. I understood at that moment that my joining him here was a big mistake because our marriage was now a sham. It was like reliving it all over again. By the time H came up, my face was obviously sad and he asked me what I was thinking about. Sigh.....Recovery is really really hard.

I don't even pretend to have any answers. I cling to what I know from MB and every day have to recommit to them, because I often fail at what I should be doing.

Sorry, pushed the wrong button too fast....

But I still believe I have turned the corner, because I no longer think about leaving him. I started to "feel" a little love for him again. For a long while after D-Day, I could not tell him I love him. I felt very ambivalent about our marriage and about H. Months have gone by, and I finally believed it was okay to feel this little bit of love again. It's very tenuous and very conditional and he knows that. It won't take much love-busting to destroy it, but it's there.

If your H can change careers, it really might do wonders. I now always join my H on his business travels. It gets a bit expensive and inconvenient, but we do it anyway. I do a bit of sightseeing on my own when he's in training or meetings, and at nights we do the events together and we don't care what the others think. I try to make it as enjoyable as possible for H. Some careers are just not marriage-friendly.

I'd agree and it sounds like it's time for a change.

Have a good trip, hope the storm doesn't mess things up for you.

One thing to consider regarding your H's events, if he continues his current job situation for a bit longer....Since it's kind of a "He-Man" type of thing, perhaps you could dress up in something kind of sexy and just be there looking great and being charming. It's also a way to show others how smart your H was for his wonderful choice in a marriage partner.

We had one business event in the Spring that we had to fly to from this remote island where we are currently living. My ticket alone cost $1600! And I had to pay for all my meals, most of which were taken separately from my H, but the peace of mind was still worth it. H would dash up to the hotel room during breaks to say hi. We had dinner every night with his colleagues, which gave them a chance to meet us as a couple. It was very awkward at one point when we bumped into the confidante my H was emailing for advice/approval during his adultery . Ugh. Suddenly that woman confidante was there and couldn't be avoided. She spoke briefly with H and didn't even acknowledge me. We got the whole thing over with in a moment and beat a hasty retreat. That whole thing was very unsettling.

The next trip was in July and again included a pricey airplane ticket for me and my eating costs, but the peace of mind was worth it. As a couple we had breakfasts and dinners together with his colleagues and first- and second-line supervisors. I always dressed nicely for these meetings and did my darnedest to be a great companion for my H.

If your H's job simply isn't going to be marriage-friendly as a workplace or as a career, then you and H will need to really reconsider. Sounds like you have a decent job and therefore have some financial wiggle-room? If he leaves this job, is it likely he can find something else that will bring in enough funds to keep the bills paid?

We were a two-career couple for a few years and found it to be incredibly draining and not as financially rewarding as we had thought. We were working all the time, it seemed. I prepared all our meals, or most of them, and packed lunches for both of us. We cleaned our home and did our own lawn. Sundays was church and a relaxing afternoon, then the whole cycle started all over again. Later I analyzed our tax situation and found that although I was bringing in just a third of what he brought home, our federal taxes increased by about 65% and our state taxes doubled! That was enough to send me into self-employment and only part-time. Anyway, something to consider. You and he may be able to work out a better career solution by putting together a great combination.

I would suggest moving the thread to Recovery when you've made the decision to recover your marriage rather than waiting until you feel that you're on the path of recovery.

The roller coaster ride is pretty nauseating made worse by indecision. Once you cut yourself off from going back and forth, but rather decide to recover going forward, unless there are new marital infractions that occur AFTER such decision, you lock yourself on your goal, no matter what comes forward.

You might want to make a list of conditions that would pull you out of recovery. Talk about them with your husband. Let him know if there's any more dirt out there, it needs out now, because there's no going back after today. Something like that anyway - then decide. Cut yourself off from back and forth stuff and the roller coaster should smooth out a bit until the passage of time and correct actions smooths it out even more.

thank you KaylaAndy and 51CD30 & NW of course!

Just back form a week of vaction, everything was good, then we hit a pothole in my mind. so i will hang here for a bit longer. H is not being completely H &O about his needs and feelings.

this is very frustrating fo me, i have been going so overboard with things, you would think i am from a sitcom (having fun doing it mind you) but apparently these things arent fulfilling him needs (SF)and he is not been O&H. that cause the problems in the first place. I am making it so inviting for him to communicate with me. he did agree and is very sorry for not talking to me.

i really think i may have a problem here, he has looked at recovery nation but it creeped him out. he is a frekn serial cheater. i am just very down, there has been NC with anyone, but himself.....


the moring after D day#1- i said to myself this is NOT going to get me and I am not going to let myself feel small or at fault for this, well for the first time today i did, apparently i am not meetin the needs for him. i am so angry at myself for feeling this way and really want to bag this, it is a huge amount to get past and now this blip, but there are constant blips.

h is trying but at what point to you have to say really this is trying 100 percent or is it 80, i know i have to be patient and he cannot change overnight but come on.. he is not a moron. how much more do i have to do before i loose all of my pride?

sorry for venting, no one to explain this to but y'all. and sorry for been a bit vague i am just embarrassed.

Glad to hear you and H enjoyed a nice vacation together.

Now, your post did seem a bit vague, but I wonder if he has a problem with masturbation? Is that what's going on? Just reading between the lines and not sure here.

I discovered about 10 years ago that my H had been involved with pornography, masturbation and inappropriate chat rooms and emails. One of my recovery requirements was for him to attend a men's sex addiction type of group through a local church. Our pastor told me about it when I went to him. It really opened his eyes to the whole problem of masturbation and other sexual habits that undermine the physical marital relationship. His habit of masturbating two or three times a week went back to teenage years. He has not engaged in it since then, and it has done wonders for SF for both of us. The study went into other forms of sexual addictions as well. He found it very very helpful.

I remember also feeling incredibly embarrassed and asking H what was wrong with ME that he didn't want SF but would rather enjoy it all on his own. He said it had become a habit.

Try to keep in mind, hard, I know, that this is really not about you at all and how you are not meeting his needs. Remember that even a really good marriage can suffer from infidelity due to sloppy boundaries and bad sexual habits.

I won't say anything further, since I am only guessing here. I just know there is help for this kind of thing. My H said he had no idea until he was in that group how insidious is the problem of masturbation.

bingo. habit i can defininately see as a part of it.

but now since we have been so much more attentive i dont know.

there is no porn thank god, he did say "it was my fault" I was getting dressed.- loved that one...really?>???/

regardless it doesnt make me feel better.

just another blip, kinda tired of them, like ok whats next....

Dr H covers this in the book Love Busters "Conflicts over Sex." I remember it being in his audio series as well.

Self-stimulation often causes a man to regard sex with his wife as too much work or a little dull. Also it began to cause problems with premature ejaculation. His body was used to responding very quickly and in masturbation there is never a need to control that reflex like there is during SF with his wife.

I just now asked my H what he did to end the habit. He said he was told he had to stop doing the things that encouraged the habit. For example, for H, it always was during a bath. So he hasn't taken a bath since; he always takes showers. He said he simply stopped doing it and concentrated on having that SF only with me.

Basically and bottom line is that your H needs to simply stop masturbating and have sex only with you.

If he sees sees you undressed and is turned on, he needs to be able to make love with you, only you. You would need to be available and he needs to tell you.

As offensive as this is to us wives, it really is a bad habit and not about us at all. I was also available; problem back in those days is that my H was not affectionate and we were busy, so the environment at home was not one conducive to dashing off to the bedroom at a moment's notice.

Could you and he talk to Dr H about it? Do you think he would post? Maybe some men could help with this. I feel unqualified being the "wrong" gender.

Gotta add here that I truly understand how devastated you are right now between the multiple adulteries and now the masturbation discovery.(another manifestation of Independent Behavior) It must seem right now like a very discouraging and uphill battle. I can only say that it's a battle that can be won, but it will take a more than 100% effort on his part and definitely on yours as well.

The first thing your H needs to do is to stop the habit completely and rely only on you, his wife, to meet his sexual needs.

For that to happen, the SF needs to be enjoyable for you as well, so he will need to learn what it takes to be a good lover to you.

In order for you to eagerly desire to meet his needs for SF, your ENs will need to be met top-notch. Plenty of affection sprinkled throughout the day/the week in order to create an environment that makes it easy for you to respond to his desire for SF. Do whatever it takes to make this easy for him. When my H used to come up behind me in the kitchen and give me a hug, while I was busy with something, I actually used to push him away. Well, this was a put-off, of course. Now he never did tell me how this made him feel, but I was reading a book that admonished wives to be receptive to their husband's affection, and I realized I was not doing that. So I fixed it; I responded by always turning to him and giving him a hug, too.

My H likes to SF 3 - 4 times a week and he knows we will do what it takes to make that happen. So if he feels turned on and we can't get to it at that moment, he knows the time will be very soon, so he can be patient.

Are you taking the Online course? We have found that to be very helpful. And you can ask Dr H questions on the private forum.

Well, you should also have this type of conversation with your husband--no more secrets or topics off-limits, remember?

If the embarrassment was a result of him being unable to perform, perhaps there just hadn't been enough time for him to recharge, so to speak.

But, like 51 said, it's his issue and his to remedy.

taking this all in....

but note i did have some convo with H. almost 4 hours (on/off)of it an he wrote in his book so i have to read that today. i guess i just need an outside point of view. or someone to say get over it or oh no thats bad.

the embarassment is on my part and posting here about it. I think he was embarrassed he got caught yes.

I dont think it was a performance issue, he just didnt ask me. didnt want to put pressure on me, bc of everything.

i did explain that this is very hard for me and dont expect me to jump right it. and he said he understood. and thats why he didnt want to "bother" me....

"It must seem right now like a very discouraging and uphill battle."----- this is exactly how i feel.

and the sink thing is a constant, forget it, i can just pick up clothes,,,,,,,

i will ask him to reread the LB section asw will I. We coach with jennifer so i am sure it will come up, though we are on a monthly now.