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Those who have my admiration of "vets" actually do not have it directly because of demonstrated knowledge, experience, or expertise alone. Those whom I truly admire and respect here I do so because of their mistakes. From Hagakure: At the time when there was a council concerning the promotion of a certain man, the council members were at the
point of deciding that promotion was useless because of the fact that the man had previously been involved in a
drunken brawl.
But someone said, "If we were to cast aside every man who had made a mistake once, useful men
could prob- ably not be come by. A man who makes a mistake once will be considerably more prudent and useful
because of his repentance. I feet that he should be promoted.''
Someone else then asked, "Will you guarantee him?" The man replied, "Of course I will."
The others asked, "By what will you guarantee him?"
And he replied, "I can guarantee him by the fact that he is a man who has erred once. A man who has never once
erred is dangerous."
This said, the man was promoted. There is at least one person that I have learned - with a steady eye - has made just about every mistake there is to make. And with that knowledge, I am a little more understanding of their stance.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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This lays along Bloom's Taxonomy (Knowledge, Comprehension, Application, Analysis, Synthesis, Evaluation), btw. Durn it, NG, you're making my head hurt with all that fancy lingo! 
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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...folks who show up here every day who know alot about Marriage Builders....who knows the program and is willing to help others ....all "vets."
I think there is a further element required that is deucedly hard to define - for simplicity let me define it as "knowledgeable empathy".
It is the paired abilities to be totally versed in the MB Principles and have the sixth sense to understand the difficulties that the "clients" are having in understanding and applying them to their own situation, and re-presenting the concepts back to them in terms specifically applicable to that situation.
In other words, it's not enough to state, "Mr XYZ, here is the appropriate MB citation." What makes a true vet is the skill/confidence to state, "Here is the MB citation, and here is why it works, and can be best applied in the XYZ marital issue."
This lays along Bloom's Taxonomy (Knowledge, Comprehension, Application, Analysis, Synthesis, Evaluation), btw. Far too large of words. Assessment, diagnosis, planning, intervention, evaluation. ADPIE. You couldn't be a nurse with your $10 engineer words! 
Last edited by HoldHerHand; 09/05/11 12:48 PM.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Durn it, NG, you're making my head hurt with all that fancy lingo! Sorry, got carried away! Bloom's basically classifies the depth/breadth of expertise in a given area of information. In general terms it means knowing something, knowing you know something, knowing how to use something, knowing the pieces of the something, and considering how to develop(or discover) a new something, and knowing which of several somethings are preferable. Assuming Dr. Harley (since he developed the MB discipline) has to be at the Evaluation tier, a "vet" here would have to be easily at the Analysis tier, breaking into Synthesis. (And "NO", there is no tier beyond Evaluation called "Texan"!) ETA: Trip, they're not Engineering-related. They are pedagogical.
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[
(And "NO", there is no tier beyond Evaluation called "Texan"!) So sez the yankee devil... 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I only ask that if I ever come here and proclaim myself a "seasoned" "wizened" "sage" and "old timer" worthy of respect only because of my length of time here, that you all knock the hale out of me!!
The truth is that I have been married THREE FREAKING TIMES and I only know how to screw up marriages. The only reason I have a good marriage today is because of Dr Harley and this program. The only "wizened" "sage" around here is Dr Harley.
p.s. shaddup, NG!!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I only ask that if I ever come here and proclaim myself a "seasoned" "wizened" "sage" and "old timer" worthy of respect only because of my length of time here, that you all knock the hale out of me!!
The truth is that I have been married THREE FREAKING TIMES and I only know how to screw up marriages. The only reason I have a good marriage today is because of Dr Harley and this program. The only "wizened" "sage" around here is Dr Harley.
p.s. shaddup, NG!! Aaaaaand, there it is. And, the lettuce incident. And the addiction. And one statement one time "in my wayward days..." Yes, I guarantee this vet. And no longer question the need for a rigid nature and approach. Thanks for contributing, sister.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Durn it, NG, you're making my head hurt with all that fancy lingo! Sorry, got carried away! Bloom's basically classifies the depth/breadth of expertise in a given area of information. In general terms it means knowing something, knowing you know something, knowing how to use something, knowing the pieces of the something, and considering how to develop(or discover) a new something, and knowing which of several somethings are preferable. Assuming Dr. Harley (since he developed the MB discipline) has to be at the Evaluation tier, a "vet" here would have to be easily at the Analysis tier, breaking into Synthesis. (And "NO", there is no tier beyond Evaluation called "Texan"!) ETA: Trip, they're not Engineering-related. They are pedagogical. Man, don't disarm my little opening to rib you! Er, make that everybody's opening. My my multi-syllabic vocabulary isn't in conversational English, rather in chemistry, biology, anatomy, and physiology... Which is expected to be reduced and analogized to layman's terms. Don't know why, it makes perfect sense to me!
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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A vet is someone who can put up with the bulls#%* spewed by new WSs, and who feels comfortable 2x4ing a new BS. I am not in that group yet, nor do I think I ever will be.
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger
I will not spend my life this way.
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Thanks for contributing, sister. Back atcha, brother! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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...folks who show up here every day who know alot about Marriage Builders....who knows the program and is willing to help others ....all "vets."
I think there is a further element required that is deucedly hard to define - for simplicity let me define it as "knowledgeable empathy".
It is the paired abilities to be totally versed in the MB Principles and have the sixth sense to understand the difficulties that the "clients" are having in understanding and applying them to their own situation, and re-presenting the concepts back to them in terms specifically applicable to that situation.
In other words, it's not enough to state, "Mr XYZ, here is the appropriate MB citation." What makes a true vet is the skill/confidence to state, "Here is the MB citation, and here is why it works, and can be best applied in the XYZ marital issue."
This lays along Bloom's Taxonomy (Knowledge, Comprehension, Application, Analysis, Synthesis, Evaluation), btw.
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The problem is when the BS/WS refuses to see the wisdom. Vets can keep hearing B-B-B-BUT MY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT IT WILL NOT WORK!!!111eleventy!111 and keep going.
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger
I will not spend my life this way.
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The problem is when the BS/WS refuses to see the wisdom. Vets can keep hearing B-B-B-BUT MY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT IT WILL NOT WORK!!!111eleventy!111 and keep going. Its good exercise for our 2x4's! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thanks for contributing, sister. Back atcha, brother! Will you GET OUTTA here, and spoil your H/get spoiled! Sheesh, how can we talk about you when you aren't around when you NEVER LEAVE!
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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A vet is someone who can put up with the bulls#%* spewed by new WSs, and who feels comfortable 2x4ing a new BS. Excuse me....but.....maybe I haven't been around long enough yet?......but why would you want to 2X4 a new BS? Was I ever on the "2x4 list"? 
BH(Me)= 55 WW(Her)=43 DD=24 (My step-daughter, been raising her since the age of 8, SHE'S MY DAUGHTER!!) Married=13 yrs Together=16.5 yrs THIS IS MY STORYWW moved out of the home = May 1,2011 D-Day=July 4, 2011 Dear Wife: I'm COMPLETELY CRAZY about you!..... as of Aug-2012 forget that last part....Good Luck to you and GOODBYE!!"Mourn the woman she was. Know the woman she is."
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Melody - any chance you spewed your own fog before? If yes, love to hear some examples!!!
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Excuse me....but.....maybe I haven't been around long enough yet?......but why would you want to 2X4 a new BS? Most of my 2x4s have been used on BS's who are too busy crying to get up and help themselves!! I sometimes have to whomp them up side of the head to WAKE THEM UP!!! Get off the train tracks!!! HHH, I have been out with my sweetheart all afternoon! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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2x4ing a new BS means...well, let's say they do something particularly...bad.
Like you. Let's say you as a BH moved out and you had a homemaker wife with 2 young kids.
We would 2x4 you for something like that, ESPECIALLY if you had been told beforehand not to!
Also, we'd do the same thing for someone who refused to expose...
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger
I will not spend my life this way.
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Fear, Bull. Fear.
Many a BS arrives paralyzed with fear and grief. This leads to a strange arrogance; my situation is different! My situation is special!
Exposure won't work! Plan A won't work! Plan B won't work!
Its like that scene in Airplane! where the woman starts having a breakdown, and some grabs a hold and starts smacking her "Snap out of it! Get a hold of yourself, and listen!"
And the camera pans back to a line of people willing to assist her in "snapping out of it."
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Melody - any chance you spewed your own fog before? If yes, love to hear some examples!!! ok, here is a GREAT ONE! This is horrible to read now, but here is my post to Dr Harley back then: Hi Dr. Harley, we are struggling with the implementation of POJA. I knew this would be a problem for me because of my penchant for independent behavior. [I scored a 20 on your test and DH scored a 5] But he seems to continually engage in angry outbursts. Over micky mouse stuff, usually related to money, even though we make a good living and are financially comfortable. Can you look at this dialogue, which happened in the grocery store today, and tell me how this should be done? This is the 2nd week in a row he has exploded in the grocery store. You had mentioned learning POJA skills in the grocery store and it is not going well! Mel: does a salad sound good to you for dinner? DH: that's fine We approach the produce section and DH picks up a head of lettuce Mel: I had planned on getting kale, romaine or spinach because there is no nutritional value in lettuce DH: says nothing MEL: grabs a bag of shredded romaine lettuce DH: I REFUSE TO PAY THAT MUCH FOR A BAG OF LETTUCE!!! [it is $2.99 whereas the head of lettuce is $.89] PUT IT BACK!! Mel, horrified and embarrassed at this outburst, tries to ignore him because she can't believe he is acting so disrespectfully over $2.99 DH follows her and says again: "MEL, PUT THAT BACK!! I REFUSE!!" I take the salad dressing I am carrying, slam it into the cart and say "that's it, I am done" and leave the store. He follows me out to the car with "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you can go back in and get the groceries. I will stay out here and leave you alone." We had a similar scene the week before where he went into a rage over tortillas. I tossed 2 packages into the cart and then decided to add another. [we had company coming] He pitched a fit and demanded I put back the 3rd package. Dr. Harley, just so you know, I am 50 years old, have a successful career, and am financially comfortable, and can damn well afford tortillas and romaine lettuce. Every time he has one of these meltdowns over micky mouse stuff, I can hardly stand him for a week. What do you suggest?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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