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Originally Posted By: markos
Speckled, if you want to try to do something, why don't you investigate some time reading what Dr. Harley has to say about anger in marriages?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3401_angry.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html

On this second page, look down the left hand side, and there is lots of reading material for you. 2 articles on angry outbursts, 3 articles on domestic violence, SIX articles on abusive marriages. Please go read these and start getting informed about what your options are.


Did you read these?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
celticvoyager I had mentioned before that I dont have a home church right now. We moved awhile back and we've been trying out various churches but have none wed call a home church right now. I am thinking of writing one of the churches that I preferred though and see if they have a christian counsellor or someone that could sit and talk to my husband and I together.


If you can afford it, Dr. Harley's Behavioral counseling does work wonders from what I've heard from the majority of people I've talked with that have done it.

Make sure that the pastor can give you a few references for counselors.

cv


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SL ~

I've read all of the posts in your thread...
I was reluctant to post anything...
However, God placed on my heart to encourage you to read about a lovely "Believing Woman" whose name is Abigail...
She was married to a "Fool"...
His name was Nabal...
You can read her story in 1. Samuel.
Here is the link:
http://preachersfiles.com/abigail-a-woman-of-integrity/
God has a way of accomplishing His will in the life of His children when they are willing to trust Him...
I see your plight as one who is not trusting God...
Your faith is weak...
However, like Abigail, it is not too late to take a stand against evil.
God IS Who He says He is...
God CAN do what He says He can do...
You ARE who God says you are...
You CAN do all things in Christ...
It is time for you to allow God's word to be alive and active in YOU...
It is time for you to BELIEVE GOD!
Prayers coming your way, girlfriend!
pray


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Here are some posts from sweet ladies who needed to read Abigail's story:
Jo says:
March 21, 2009 at 5:28 pm

I have recently been praying to God about what to do about a situation almost like this one. Durring my daily bible reading I was lead to read about Abigail, Laban and Nabal. This is almost a mirror image situation of what i am going through. I found myself in the middle of and argument between my husband, and this other person. I beleive the holy spirit led me to read about abigail. It is amazing how the method of how she dealt with the situation is relevant to me even though it took place many thousand years ago. I now know what to do and I bless the lord who is faithfull to answer when we ask. In time of need i called and he has answered. Instead of confusion everything is clear.
Thank you for this bible study may the Good Lord bless you.

Another:

Ruth says:
October 25, 2009 at 2:36 am

In the situation I am in, someone referred to me as an Abigail as well recently, which through curiosity about this story brought me to this site. I left my foolish husband a year ago which was the hardest thing Ive ever done. This story is an encouragement for me to continue to go to bat for him as he is now trying to get his life back together. I am reminded to walk in forgiveness while still holding to the boundaries for myself.


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Speckled, your words are those of a co-dependent person. You are sympathizing with your attacker!

Quote:
I really feel there would have to be another incident before I could confront him about it
You're waiting for another attack?? WHY??

Quote:
since the last verbal abuse he has been very nice to me all week
This is typical of an abuser.
Quote:
if I just suddenly brought it up now after hes been nice it wouldn't make much sense to him
"I will no longer accept your abuse of me." What's hard about that? Does he have a learning disability?
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maybe he didn't mean to hit me so hard
HUH? So, it's okay to hit you if he doesn't leave any marks?? crazy
Quote:
I just keep trying to convince myself its not that bad.
It's encouraging to read that you can see this in yourself. But convincing yourself that it's 'not that bad' is the act of an enabler. It IS that bad! It IS, Speckled!


D-Day 2-10-2009
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Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
Speckled, your words are those of a co-dependent person. You are sympathizing with your attacker!

Quote:
I really feel there would have to be another incident before I could confront him about it
You're waiting for another attack?? WHY??

Quote:
since the last verbal abuse he has been very nice to me all week
This is typical of an abuser.
Quote:
if I just suddenly brought it up now after hes been nice it wouldn't make much sense to him
"I will no longer accept your abuse of me." What's hard about that? Does he have a learning disability?
Quote:
maybe he didn't mean to hit me so hard
HUH? So, it's okay to hit you if he doesn't leave any marks?? crazy
Quote:
I just keep trying to convince myself its not that bad.
It's encouraging to read that you can see this in yourself. But convincing yourself that it's 'not that bad' is the act of an enabler. It IS that bad! It IS, Speckled!


Just want to add to MB's post (which is really good)...

A normal marriage is one where the husband is tender to his wife. He cares for her to such a degree he would never belittle or berate her. A good husband would never think of laying his hand on any woman, especially his own wife. A normal marriage is where the husbands touch is one of love and tenderness, not hate (which is what he demonstrates when he hits, pulls hair and kicks).

A good marriage communicates in loving, even tones, not angrily or mockingly.

Real love is where the husband lays his life down for his wife and is not focusing all the blame on her, making her lay her life down unnecessarily. Real love is patient, it does not get easily exasperated, it is kind (on words as well as deed). It is gentle, it is longsuffering. it does not push the blame onto others.

CV


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Markos I did spend quite awhile reading through those thankyou.

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I've read the story of Abigail before, she was definetly a strong brave woman. Though to me ending up married to someone with numerous other wives didn't seem that great of an ending though I suppose at the time that was normal.

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So i wrote a six page letter I guess basically going against all you have said. I guess I am weak so I have to try this first. It outlines all the main cases of abuse and clearly states I will not stand for it any longer and if he ever tries to abuse me again I will notify the cops and kick him out of the house and then said we need to see a christian counsellor. Now I'm just trying to find the right timing to give it to him. He's in a really good mood right now so I think (knowing my husband) he would take it the wrong way and instantly get defensive like what are you talking about I've been so nice to you and not take the time to think about what was said. You all may think this is crazy but I do know how he reacts to certain things. But I can't give it to him angry or he will just rip it up and think I'm a stupid woman. So i got to give it to him when hes in just a soso mood I suppose. Then I just need to see how he reacts if he takes it serious, if he doesn't, if he laughs it off or gets defensive or what. I think the main issue that might affect him wanting to change is he truly believes he does no wrong he says it with conviction that most days he thinks he is blameless. Regret and guilt that most people get when they've done some kind of wrong is what normally makes them want to change. So how can you change if you feel no guilt? So I'm hoping this might awaken some kind of self awareness in him if hes been in denial this whole time. So yes I suppose I'm weak and it probably annoys most of you that I am going to give him a letter instead of leave right off but I have to give it a try.

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Speckled, you seem determined to do this your own way, regardless of what we tell you. From the beginning you have explained why our suggestions won't work, why you shouldn't proceed under our suggestions, why it will be oh-so-difficult to listen to us - strangers who have nothing to gain either way. Our advice has only been to help you.


So: GO FOR IT. Do whatever you want to do. It appears to have been failing you and you have come to a marriage building website for help, only to ignore that help.

Do whatever you think you need to do. Good luck.


D-Day 2-10-2009
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Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Speckled, you are in a dangerous situation, and tipping him off when you would plan to leave makes it that much more so. Have you read this article? It talks about why women don't want to separate from abusive men, and a course of action. Please consider contacting your local battered women's shelter *before* giving your H such a letter. They are very respectful, understand your situation, and won't push you or judge you, because they've been in your shoes and know why it's so hard.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit2.html


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
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Speckled...

I would advise that you scope out the options in the area that you live, and find out from those shelters what is and is not normal behavior. Sometimes when a victim has been living with an abuser long enough, it starts to feel normal. The problem is that the abuser will eventually start to up the ante. So, banking on the possibility that the abuse won't get any worse, is risky - not just to you but to your boys too.

Educate yourself. Get out the phone book and learn where these places are. Write them down. Keep a file. Keep it in a safe place. Write down the names of a few lawyers too. Just so that you have a few telephone numbers.

You obviously haven't been shattered by this. You have the courage and knowledge to come here. That was smart. You know your marriage isn't quite right, or you wouldn't be seeking advise on this topic. I understand why you would not fully trust perfect strangers - especially when it has only been 5 days and after all you've been through. I can tell you it is all well intended and appropriate advice, but that won't mean anything, since you don't know me either.

Um, yours would not be the first family that I know of where religion has been manipulated and used as a tool to power over a wife. I know of two such dynamics in my social circle alone. Both involved infidelity. Yeah...sad, but both husbands made like they were holier than though, and all along were getting a little on the side while abusing their wives. Is there any chance of this happening in your marriage? Is your husband open and honest with you about where the money is going, why he might be late, etc.? Sometimes a spouse will begin or ramp up abuse when they are involved in infidelity. They will rewrite history and try to fabricate reasons for their wayward behavior/entitlement. (Just something to think on.)

There is nothing intrinsically wrong or disloyal with gathering information. That is very wise. Understandably you're concerned about your marriage. That may require examining it carefully and ironing out the wrinkles. It has to start somewhere. And...let's face facts. Your husband has been abusive. So...whenever we attempt anything that could increase the possibility of us being harmed (your choice to stay for now, as an example), we take out insurance, right? So, building your education about abuse and having a plan A and a plan B are your insurance. Here are a couple of ways for you to begin your education of abuse and the resources available to victims.

*Get out the phone book and write down the names and locations and telephone numbers of the women's shelters in your area.

*Then write down the names and numbers of two or three noted family lawyers in your area.

*Write down questions you might like to ask the people at the shelter.

*If you haven't given your husband the letter yet, hold off on it, as New Everyday suggests.

*Today, start getting into the habit of backing your car into the driveway. Sounds silly, but if by any chance you ever have to leave in a hurry, this will make it easier. Start this habit this week.

In the meantime, I would like to ask three more important questions:

*Do you have a cell phone that is yours only and that he's aware of?
*Do you regularly have spending money?
*How does he feel about you talking and visiting with your family and friends?

Last edited by Soolee; 09/12/11 10:28 AM.

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"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
After spending awhile on this site though reading articles you really start to think are humans crazy? Why do we get married when it seems life is an endless battle afterwards struggling to maintain a healthy relationship.


It is not an endless battle in a good marriage. But of course you can't have a good marriage to someone who is abusing you.

Are you here to help learn how to endure an endless battle? Or here to learn how to end the abuse?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I've also written Marriage builders and hope they respond. I'd be interested in knowing if their thoughts are the same about seperation.


Please let us know if you hear back from them today. Please check your spam folder and make sure their response doesn't get lost. If you don't hear anything, please click "notify" and ask the moderators to get in touch with Dr. Harley for you.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

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Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
Thanks for sharing your story with me. From your point of view as having once abused do you think going to a counsellor together has a chance of improving the situation? I love my husband so I want this to work out.


Speckled... In the group of reforming verbal abusers that I have been a member of for 22 months a survey was performed. In 100% of the cases the verbal abuser's wife either: Left, Filed For Divorce, Initiated an Order of Protection, Refused to allow the husband to live in the marital bedroom, found another man or a combination of the above. My point is, it was not until the abused spouse took drastic action that the verbal abuser awakened even a little bit.
Simply put... if you do not do something very siginificant, then your spouse will never have to look in the mirror and "see" themselves and their behavior.

You must protect yourself. It isn't about whether your spouse is a good man or not. It is about you creating a safe environment and boundary for yourself. You must do this or you will end up hurting your husband far more.
Please do not become another statistic. Somewhere in the backwards wired mind of our husband is a good man. Maybe. But as long as he allows his emotions to make it alright for him to abuse you, verbally, physically or both... you are sabotaging your own marriage and possibly endangering your own life....

Please run and get the direction and counseling you need from a local women's shelter.
Please.
The answer to your question, is that without you doing sometinhg, to protect yourself... there is no chance for a "cure." But in reality... once verbal abuse has escallated to physical abuse of any kind... the chances of a "cure" are very, very small.
The day your husband is willing to tell his friends, co-workers and your family and his that he is an abuser... that is the first time yo have any chance at all.
I have seen too much.
Speckles, I know first hand from all the men I work with and you are in danger.

Blessings,
Hurtingturkey

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Speckledlady,

I am sorry that you are in this frightening place. I have also been part of a physical and emotionally abusive relationship.

There are things that you can do from within the home, but often they lead to escalation of the abuse. This is why it is important to separate.

I started my journey by realizing that I couldn't change him.

Once this was straight in my head, I worked out what I deserved and what my children deserved.

Work out what you and your children deserve. We all deserve love and care, respect and consideration.

Once you are clear on this, you start to enforce boundaries, if these basic essentials are violated.

I let my H know that I was going to protect what was mine, I let him know that I was going to remove myself if I felt threatened in any situation. I let him know that I would take further measures to protect myself and my children from the bad example we had been setting(it helps to take responsibility for your part, it helps if you recognise what you could have done differently (ie enforcing boundaries), this doesn't mean that you accept any responsibility for his abuse).

If my H raised his voice to me or started to back me into a corner, I would walk away - take the kids to the park or the shops.

When ever you are in a room with him, make sure the exit is clear.

Find out where the local shelter is, get in touch with them and let them know your situation (I found this incredibly empowering), my shelter didn't try to force to leave him, they didn't want to take anything any further just let me talk and let me know they were there and helped me make plans for if I did get up the courage or decide things wouldn't work.

After several months of my attempts at enforcing boundaries and working out that I was worth more, things got bad one night and I picked up the phone to call the police. He knew I was serious and stopped.

I asked him to move out and work on himself - he enrolled on a perpetrators of abuse program and read books about anger - he emailed me the evidence and we discussed his findings. We met out in parks etc, as a family at the weekend. He lived away from home for 2 months.

We are now living together again - have been for 18months - I never tread on eggshells anymore, I never worry about him coming home, I don't have to plead "shhh the children can hear".


If you are able to gain some self respect and respect for your children then this will be an incredibly rewarding journey, whether you stay married or not.

I just want you to know that it is possible to recover ( I could never find any tales with happy endings - obviously highlighting the risks), but I do not think recovery is possible without some type of separation.

NB: Anger Management does not work for abuse, and indeed those experienced with abusive situations will comment that it can make it worse.

**edit**

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**edit**

Please notify the administrator if you wish to exchange emails.

Thank you for your cooperation.


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For those of you who asked this is Mr. Harley's response:
The wives of abusive men are often in the situation you find yourself in. The man does so many things of value to her, that she seems to have no choice but to put up with his abuse. To leave him, and the lifestyle he offers, would be more painful than to suffer occasional physical and emotional abuse. Ive counseled scores of women in your situation. There are no winning alternatives for them.

But my position has always been that physical abuse, and sometimes emotional abuse, should be reported and not tolerated, regardless of the value of the relationship. There are many reasons. Physical abuse often leads to permanent disabilities (broken backs, brain damage, etc.), serious mental and physical problems caused by a lifetime of fear and stress, and death. Furthermore, the more the perpetrator learns that he has control, the more violent he becomes. By reporting him, he is aware that he cant get away with it.

Your life may be difficult without him, but it is likely to become tragic with him. You have no idea what chances you are taking every day you put up with your husbands temper. For the sake of you and your children, you should not accept it.

Ive also found that when a violent man is confronted with the fact that he will lose his wife and children if he doesnt learn to control his temper (and infidelity), he will often change. Ive witnessed many wives who after deciding to risk a divorce by reporting her husband, found that the resulting separation turned his life around and he became a safe husband and father.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

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Soolee to answer some of your questions there is no infidelity going on. I'm 99.9% certain of thise obviously no one could be 100% positive. He shows little interest in women, always comes home right after his work shift and leaves right before. There have been no unexplained absences. He doesn't go in chat rooms or talk on msn so he couldn't be having a relationship there he reads the news a lot and watches lots of movies on his computer ( no porn ). So I dont have any concerns about that. I do not have a cellphone of my own, he doesn't either just a home phone. He does not care if I go to my family or friends house. I do however not have easy access to money. I mean we have a joint account and I could go out and spend money but if he knows I've been out he will check our bank account and find out how much I spent and where and will question me if he doesn't like all the numbers even though some of the income is mine. This is not due to a spending issue on my part I dont spend much and even though we are doing well financially because of the tight purse strings family members have given me money for things like clothing and shoes when I basically was living in one outfit with shoes filled with holes. Meanwhhile our house is almost paid off and its a nice house, we have no debts, our two cars are paid off and we have savings. I'm still in my 20s too so I think that isn't bad. So no sneaking an emergency fund out. He'd notice even little withdrawals. I've mentioned the controlling money issues to all my family but they had no suggestions. I guess thats all part of the bigger issue. I think that answers all of your questions.

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Thanks for sharing your story staytogether its nice to hear how people coped in simliar situations. I find it hard to constantly be called weak but I see where everyone is coming from. Before I was abused I used to watch shows on abuse and think these women must be crazy why don't they just leave? But these things are always easier to see from an outsiders point of view who doesn't have to make the hard decisions themselves. If I had no kids it would definetly be easier to up and leave, I'd have little problem doing it. This may seem like backwards thinking but as mentioned in other posts there are many benefits for my children being financially stable opposed to being in a shelter or barely scraping by unable to support my sons special needs. However I know I can not continue to tolerate a bad influence on them so my husband must stop. They are too young to know whats going on now so it must end now. And what Dr. Harley said is very true how you tell yourself the occasional physical and verbal abuse cant be worse then leaving your support etc. Just today I had my second surgery in two weeks for my genetic condition covered by his insurance, I don't even want to think what will happen to me if my treatments have to stop. So that and a million other things make me feel trapped so again easy for some to say I'm weak etc but I think it would be hard for anyone to give up everything just like that. And of course I didn't come on here just to ask for advice and then ignore it all I was surprised how everyone said to seperate, I had come on here thinking id get a variety of advice. Though thanks to everyone who has suggested things like finding out about local shelters etc. So its all hard to take in but please everyone dont think everything you say is going in one ear and out the other.

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