She told me she forgives me for my actions that led to the PA and for what I said and did on DDay and afterwards. She tells me she is having a hard time forgiving herself for what she did and for the pain she caused me. She doesn't know how I can ever forgive her. She says she is angry at herself and has so much anger from the past.

Is this the fog clearing? I hope to be able to forgive her soon. I don't know what that will feel or look like.

Tex,

This is good. I like anger. Anger means she is not indifferent. It's not hate, it's hurt, frustration, maybe a million other things, but it is NOT apathy. We just finished chapter 3 (well half of it) in our bible study tonight. I tied it in with this passage:


Col 3:1-6 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. (2) Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. (3) For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. (4) When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (5) Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. (6) On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

and followed through with this one:


Col 3:12-14 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, (13) bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. (14) And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.


an odd passage for discussing affection as most women's top EN? Maybe not when you think about it. Both our W's had A's. We are desiring to set their minds on things above (even though we are at different stages, our goal is the same).

We are all called to put to death idolatry, which is what those lists of sins are. And because we put these away in preparation for something better, we put on compassionate hearts. You know, that heart where we show kindness, humility, meekness and patience. Not always easy to do with this type of sin.

Bearing with one another is not easy. It means literally to hold one's self up. That idea of when we are weak and exhausted, battered and weary, we pull ourselves up and endure yet a little more.


Why? Because Christ loved us first and endured so much more.

Sorry this is long. let me get to the point. Our FWW's complain about our past actions. With meekness and humility we acknowledge that we failed in meeting certain needs without excusing the affairs. We readily admit our own fault paving the way, setting the example for them to do the same.

We prove our repentance in the same way we are requiring it of our FWW's... By demonstrating it. We begin meeting those needs.

I understand her anger. She will forgive you when she sees the full weight of her sin. When she comes to grips with the full awfulness of what she's done. Be patient. It sounds as if she's chewing on some things and hasn't yet fully digested them yet. In the meantime, keep being what you are.. kind, compassionate, firm, loving... All the while meeting her EN's and filling that love bank.

CV

Tex,

Truly I am a prophet (just kidding). This is what I was talking about with coming to grips and digesting the awfulness of what she's done. truthfully, the forgiveness will come slow. And that's ok. It's not a one time declaration, this forgiveness thing, it's a process. As she walks out her repentance, forgiveness will follow. remind her of the goal. It sounds like the fog is lifting a bit.

What does it feel and look like? My man, it is wonderful. Peace. security. joy. looking at her and not being shamed or ashamed. it is kinda that idea of what you thought your marriage was gonna be... except it is.

CV

Thanks for the prediction CV.....ha

I truely hope this is the fog lifting. Is there a chance for a refogging to occur?
Should I be on the lookout for that? I have to travel for my job, my fear is while I'm away, she may drift back. I am texting her and calling her to make sure she knows I miss her and love her.

Just asking if the "fog" ever comes back. She has been very nice to me over the past several days, even asking me to lunchnon her own. I usually did the asking in the past.

Still waiting on her to ask me for SF. I feel if I ask, I am pushing her. I want to just meet her EN and fill her love bank. She will ask for sex from me at some point. Patience and will power..... It's like looking at a slice of chocolate cake and waiting for it to say, "Please take a bite of me"....!! Oh how I love looking at that piece of cake.

It's been 4 months since they have seen (PA) each other, 3 months since they spoke, and over 2 months since they texted. Time is moving forward and is on my side.....

Texas,

Why not initiate SF? In our case, I, the woman, initiated after D-Day and into NC with OW, because my FWH felt too horrible and ashamed and figured I would turn him down in disgust. I figured the only way we would ever reconnect on that level would be for me to initiate. It would show him that I still wanted him and for us to recover. Also, I wanted to show him that what WE have together is a hell of a lot better than what that skankho could offer.

Now we're pretty much back to H doing much of the initiating and W doing the enthusiastic agreement. I can't speak for all women, but many of us like to be pursued. Also with a couple of children, it perhaps might not be occurring to her. You know, SF on the back burner kind of thing.

Anyway, that would be my recommendation. Get alone with your W, and make sure it's before you are both exhausted and just whisper in her ear that you love her and want to make love. And, well, you know....just start doing what you know she loves.

My two cents....

51,

I have been the initiator for the past 17 years. I can't even remember the last time W asked for SF......always said she didn't like it....it was not something she enjoyed. Well that didn't stop her with OM. So now I'm faced with why she would do that with him. They had a 18 month EA, b4 she asked him...and yes She asked him to have sex. He of coarse said yes, paid for the room in cash, twice. So I told her, it's not my place to be the one to initiate. I told her I wanted and enjoyed SF with her. But she would have to ask. I will give her time for the fog to lift, I wish it sooner rather than later....but it is her choice. I have a time frame in mind where I will start to question her commitment to recovery if she doesn't come around. I will then have to make a choice to stay or leave again.

Let me know if I'm way off base. I feel like giving her time and letting her be in enthusiastic agreement about our SF is the only way we will have great SF. Which is not what we had before the PA.

Have you talked with your wife at any point about why she doesn't seem to enjoy SF? She might have enjoyed it with OM; she might not have. She might have enjoyed the "fun" and fantasy, and sex was just a way to get it.

CV posted to you in your thread that sex was probably to get a response, such as admiration or attention. Women often use sex to get love, or what they think is love.

If she doesn't enjoy SF, maybe she doesn't understand how her body works. (just a suggestion here.) In the SF chapter of HNHN audio series, Dr. H. talks about how the woman needs to find out what makes her happy in SF and then relate that to her H, so they can both enjoy it.

Your D-Day was just a couple of months ago, and perhaps she is still in a bit of withdrawal. It took my FWH a couple of months to really get out of the fog. He did the No Contact and committed to recovery, but he still seemed to think rather fondly of OW as well.

Hurt like anything to think he'd think so well of a woman who didn't care if he left his wife of 30 years and never see his own daughter or grandchildren again. But now....he says he was a fool. He now says he thinks it was terrible of her to sleep with a married man and help destroy a marriage, since she had been the BS in her first marriage. He said he has seen the pain with his own eyes and can't understand why she didn't care that she was helping to put an innocent person through the same pain. Of course, he takes full responsibility for the A himself, but all this time, he had said what a "delightful" person she was. Seeing the A and the OW for what they really were took a few months.

Might be a good idea to sign up for the Online Seminar. It's a really helpful way to start a course of action to rebuild the romantic love in the marriage.

51,

It's a complex issue with me. One that I struggle with the most over this entire situation. I am very worried that her dislike for sex may be due to me. She has told me from the time we first had sex, that she does not like it and that she could go the rest of her life without it..... Enter OM.....they had a 18 month EA, when she decided to move it to the next level. She was the aggressor, she asked and asked until he said yes. The first time she says was just for him. On the second meeting, she shopped for sexy clothing and bought some body oil ( she says they didn't use it ). But she did have him give her an O, and she allowed him to do things to her I had been denied for years.

She says she loves me, she says she wants to recover, she has written the NC letter, she has been remorseful, but has not moved forward with any of my EN. She is still foggy, and I'm sure she will be in some fog for sometime. I struggle in thinking she stays foggy, so she doesn't have to address the SF I need.

This could all sound like late night babble, but I am concerned it is not my company she missed, but her attraction to me. Her attraction or lack there of is why she doesn't enjoy SF with me.

I wait and continue to do my best to meet her EN.

Have you filled out the love buster and emotional needs questionnaires? Has your wife?

The workbook "Five Steps to Romantic Love" has a breakdown of each of the emotional needs with a questionnaire for each one, very detailed, so that there is little question in determining what the problem is.

For example, there is a group of questions regarding sexual willingness and how often does one feeling willing, under what conditions and so. It's really a very helpful workbook.

My H and I have been married for a long time and experienced a pretty good to even great sex life for years, but we learned even more from the HNHN books, audio CDs, and the workbook. We were pretty surprised and enlightened by what we learned.

Do you have any idea why she would not be attracted to you? Has she ever felt attracted to you? Or has she rewritten marital history and forgotten the good times, like so many waywards do?

Is she depressed right now? Is she on meds? After the withdrawal has passed and she is really "with" you again, it would be a good idea to sit together and fill out the questionnaires so you can each better understand the dynamics in your situation.

Counseling with one of the Harleys would also be a good option. More directly to the point and plenty more privacy than here on the forum. (Even though we're anonymous.)

From what I've read, most men like their women to initiate at times; sort of shows the interest and delight is there.

It's a major disappointment to have wife with little sex drive who goes and has an affair.

You can read every piece of information about the cheaters mindset but its tough to get passed that, ill admit.

My philandering friend who himself got caught 2 years ago gave me advice after my dday and basically it was that I should take what I want. I'll never hurt her, never force myself, never did. He said as my biggest EN take this opportunity to change this bedroom dynamic.

After dday I will initiate and do more to make it happen than before. I will not spend enternity sexually frustrated. That ended in may.

She hasn't complained and our rate of doing it has certainly slowed a bit since dday, but bottom line is when I want it, I either tell her or show her.

Can't sit and wait for her to start the action. She has improved in that arena from a zero pre dday so she could only go up from there. I have no complaints.

The most important thing to think is rarely are A for SF for a woman. That and plenty of post dday shagging help the BH get passed the thing you're hung up on.

In my mind I had to fight a very emasculating thing she did to me. By "taking" her, if you will, I showed her a few things. The most important is that she is mine. Not to mention it's made us closer than ever.

It's about openness and honesty. Tell her you want her and it's one of your conditions for recovery. She either seeks help for her low sex drive, finds it within her, or youre destined for unhappiness.

Life is too short. You've shown her your best side by allowing her to stay with you after she almost lost it all. Now she had to earn her stay. Don't continue losing ways. I definitely didn't and it's been real good.

Tex,

You need to understand that there is a very great likely-hood that even though she was the one who asked for sex, that it was not for the purpose of SF. Likely, it was the need to manipulate through sex. OM was fulfilling an EN or two, but not enough. Sex became a tool she recognized she could use to get that EN filled even more.

Sex in the right context is awesome. Sex in other contexts is dangerous. It is used as a tool to manipulate and control, to get stuff... It can even be used as a weapon to hurt your spouse.

It is likely that while she initiated sf with OM, she most likely did not enjoy it. What she enjoyed was the rush of power and feeling of being in control (as with my FWW).

In it's proper context though, sex is about trust as much as it is enjoyment between an H and W. It may be that she has never trusted you enough to relax, but it may be that she does not trust something about herself enough to relax and enjoy herself.

What you two really need to do is block out some serious time to discuss SF. Plan the conversation ahead of time. Give her a head's up. Let her know what you want to talk about. Make sure the talk is about the two of you. Not about the A.


CV

CV,

I appreciate your insight to what my WW may have been doing or feeling when she asked OM for sex. I have to convience myself this is what was happening. I believe MSS that have I to not live in an unhappy relationship from here on. She has been hesitant to take any more surveys since we took the 5 Love Languages survey. I have not brought her to this site, she has been to the articles and knows I am writing on a blog. Like I've said before, it is a strange environment around the house. She feels guilt, seems remorseful, and doesn't want to talk about PA or OM anymore. I don't either really. She says her feelings for him are still there, but doesn't want to tell me, bc she doesn't want to hurt me. Her fog may be lifting, but there is still some there.

My therapist tells me, and I've read that her feelings for him may be there forever. He is now part of our life story. We have to work on writing a new chapter for our marriage where openness and honesty are foundations we don't shy away from ever again.

I will have that talk with her, we will plan on talking about us and about each others expectations. I don't want to say I am a upset with the progress, but today has been a day of little hope. Each day is a new day and a new opportunity for us to closer or further apart.

Recovery is a slow painful process.

Tex,

I just re-read some of your posts. You do realize that it took her 18 months of an EA to get to the point of s with OM right? That right there should say something. Most likely the EA was stalling and not going anywhere and in order to get him to meet more EN's, she began requesting SF.

Just as an aside to what MSS posted... The post about claiming what is yours. I wouldn't quite phrase it that way, but there is truth to what he is saying. It may be a good way to show her you are interested if you began pursuing her more, letting her know you are interested in her. Keep her mind busy... Tell her that tomorrow night you are going to (pardon the crudeness here) romance her pants off of her, because you love her and want her like you love and want no other. My thought is that you are replacing OM with yourself and not just leaving a void there.

CV

Thanks for the encouragement. I doubt that is possible today. We spoke for a few minutes, and she is not interested in SF right now. She says she doesn't know why she asked for SF from OM, and is now confused and back to saying she doesn't like sex.

I bought SAA today and will start to read tonight. Is it also a book she should read? Is it as tough on WW as this forum?

Yes, she needs to read the book too. And fast.

She'll learn that she is failing terribly at earning your forgivness and has a lot to do to get her marriage back.

And, youre now on the board since 8/17 and you dont have SAA yet?

Whats up with that?

TTS,

I see you say "yes the OMW knows", are you refering to Nov. of last year when the OMW tried to reach you? Because as I see it, you are following your own plan. Believe me when I tell you that this does not lead to marital recovery as I am a poster child for what not to do.

Melody early on tried to advise me, it took me many years to fully expose. I didn't find MB until 2005. You are only setting yourself up for more problems by picking and choosing what to follow. It also looks like you didn't talk to your children. I didn't either after the 1st time many years ago, two of them were babies, after the most current affair it was a couple of d-days before I did. Our youngest was 14/15...he knew something was wrong and he had his own stories of things that didn't add up when he was around his father.

I see some of the VET's are no longer on your thread...I think you can guess why....

Listen to the Vet's, they know what they are talking about!

ba

BA,

Thanks. We have fully exposed to everyone except the younger children. They wouldn't understand, they do know that Mommy is seeing someone ( her therapist ) to help her with her problem. They know we are working on making each other happy. Explaining to a small child about adultery doesn't seem like a good use of time. The OW knows. I found her FB, and went to her and her sister. She knows. Shenhas not responded in word, but her FB picture changed the day after I sent her the note. I am watching her FB to see if anything changes.

As far as listening, I am listening to any advice I can get. As you can tell from some of my post, her Fog is still here. It breaks and comes back. I am working on her EN and keeping a positive attitude. Please keep the advice coming.

One thing I appreciate about all of Harley's books I've read (and even the audio clips I've listened to) is that he is fair. He has a kind and even tone. He has never seemed harsh or tough in anything of his I've read, but he doesn't mince words either.

As to your other question, yes. She needs to read SAA ASAP. Read it with her if she will let you. Heck, read it to her.


CV

CV,

Thanks for your support and encouragement. I have a question for Grace, if you could pass this along. I haven't figured out how to copy and paste to a specific person. Here it is... "What was the one thing she remembers you did that helped her get over her addiction of the OM#2?".

The reason I am asking, I have tried everything i can think of....she is still having withdrawals and deep emotional pain.

I've started the book. I also picked up, HNHN from a friend. Can't wait to read them both together.