Then tell him what you need for him to do.

He needs to tell his daughter that she needs to cut the crap, in whatever form he wants to word it. Quit the book, quit the partying, the toxic friends, etc.

He needs to spell out just exactly what a divorce will mean for the kids.

Is she really ok with only seeing the kids 50% of the time? Because that's what's going to happen.

Is she really ok with her kids calling another woman mommy?

He (or both of you) needs to tell her that you (stretch) will not be hanging around like some weird divorced-but-not-really-divorced family. That'll you'll be gone and out of the picture forever.

Since you aren't really that important to her right now, y'all will have to hit her with what she'll lose that she considers important today.

My marriage would have never survived if I hadn't flat-out asked my in-laws to intervene. Most want to help but don't know how. You have to spell out, to them, exactly what you want them to do.

Just being there on the sidelines for moral support won't cut it.

Yeah, that's a good example of bad behavior followed by no consequences. You tell her how she's hurting you, she says she is sorry she does it but, basically, has no intention of changing and then...nothing happens.

So the bad behavior continues.

Saw that NG posted this morning. He saved the 2x4...

NG's 2x4's are only applied to BHs who are NOT taking action to fight infidelity. You are immune for two reasons:

• You fought hard enough to succeed in breaking up her EA-on-the-cusp-of-PA with Music Man, despite not having any reliable support from her basically-scuzzball family.
• Right now your fight is with her mental/emotional demons, not the tragedy of outright infidelity. I've said before it appears your WW's affair flowed from her emotional issues, not the other-way around.

Hang in there, Stretch!

They seem self-fulfilling now, wouldn't you say?

While the depression is a big issue, the bottom still needs to be raised, in my opinion. She knows what she is doing and doesn't give a damn because she can either blame it on stretch's lack of a sense of humor, her depression, the Chinese or whatever her flavor of the month is.

The emotional abuse and depression need to be addressed. Since you cannot just "fix" depression, you might as well go after the bad behavior which, if she gets on board, will go a long way toward a stable home-life which will relax some of the issues feeding her depression. Hell, it worked for me so maybe it'll work for you. It's worth a shot as the status-quo isn't working so well.

She isn't going to change this herself, stretch, and it sounds like she's gotten used to Mr. Nice-Guy. You must be doing something right (or she would have divorced you) so I'll bet you have a lot going for you. It's just that one last hump that needs to be cleared.

Look, she's deliberately doing things that hurt you. Telling her to quit doing that isn't wrong or being mean or insensitive to a medical condition. It's just giving her a list of conditions that must be met for you to remain married to her.

I responded this morning and now noticed it did not go through. Oh Well.

Basically, wanted to thank you for the insights. They seem spot on.

I went ahead and told her my opinions. Why she was depressed. Why she won't start recovery. What recovery will look like.

She hasn't run away. She is actually thinking about her internal work on feeling better. And I asked her to recognize how much she is expecting external things to change (her family, me, the kids) in order for her to feel better.

She says: "I need to explain why I have boundary issues. Why I have let people violate them. Mostly my close circle of family, etc."

Told her it will be frustrating trying to make everyone around her change. Her spouse is committed to working on it. A lot. But most other people won't change their way of being just for you. She needs to change her internal reactions to conflict, disagreements, disrespect. She doesn't feel heard. Neither do I half the time, at work, with customers, with my friends, family, wife, kids. Its how we react to that which we can own and control.

SHe is thinking about that. I told her to try and work on her internal response. Why are you intimidated? Why do you feel you are backing down? Letting other people cross your boundaries? The answer may not to "be more assertive and explain what you need." The ansdwer may be your own feelings and reactions internally.

I prefaced all this by saying: "At the risk of sounding like a big ol' bunch of defensive judgement.... this is from the one who loves you, lives with you, genuinely wants to help.... here is my observation...."

So, I still contend, she is not committed to recovery. I know what recovery looks like. She cannot get there before depression is dealt with. She is not working on internal depression, she is focused too much on changing the external things around her and looking for external things that make her feel good. Some healthy (new baby, new puppy, sleep, diet exercise) some very unhealthy (junk food, alcohol, giddy over new boyfriends real or imagined.)

Consider that a LONG TERM, healthy, loving, intimate relationship that is safe and secure and trusting and deep will be something that will help depression and feeling good more than new magic carpet ride, giddy tummy, falling for some new guy every other month.

Fixing that "external" stuff will go a very long way with dealing with the depression. She cannot just fix the internal issues (or she would) but she can fix the external ones and, well, seems to choose not to do so.

It's like the drunk that bemoans how sorry he is for being a drunk, how he wishes he could stop, how he wishes he wasn't hurting people...but then goes to the bar anyways.



Yes, that is true.

Thanks nw

feeling low. Really down tonight.

It has been good to be strong this week. She hasn't run for the hills with me trying to explain to her that she hasn't started recovery and we need to work on her depression.

And she is kind and showing small signs of love and affection. Some unexpected affections she initiated.... coming over for a kiss... grabbed my hand... came in for a long embrace and hug.

We had a good date tonight, I felt. I joined her at a meeting with her writing friends. She invited me. And I went and enjoyed myself. No other husbands there. Just me, and about 35 women without their husbands. I think I was engaging, a great date, interesting, friendly. And again.... do I get a point for going? Didn't see any other supportive husbands.

I think I was definitely hoping for some renewed physical romance tonight. It was once in July and once in August. Really bad for us and its painful because its an emotional need unmet.

Couldn't get to sleep. Came downstairs to be alone. I remember all the bad things she has said and how much they hurt.

"I wanted to have boyfriends and fun like my divorced friend"
"I can only do the bare minimum for this relationship."
"ILYBNILWY"
"Maybe its too late" (quite often recently)
"I can't / won't fake it."
"I don't feel attraction"
"I have a foot and a half out the door."
"What's the point of a weekend away together. It makes me sad that I don't want to go with you."

And I remember her response so often: "I am sorry your hurt."

Not, "I am sorry I did that, said that, I want to make you feel better by changing."

It a big difference from , "I love you, and I am sorry I did that and I want you to forgive me."

"I am sad that you are hurt" is just so..... I don't know. Such an unfulfilling response.


Its dawning on me and I am struggling to accept that maybe she just is out of love with me. Just... thinks I am a nice enough guy now who has improved and changed.... but.... she cannot seem to fall in love again.

Still believe her emotional demons and mental issues are the problem. Still believe she wants to fall deeply in love, deep down there somewhere. But I am hurting and neglected and abused right now.

Its devasting to believe that I cannot MAKE her fall in love with me. She has to want to recover, and build the romantic love that still has a small yet deep flame inside her.

But the admission to myself that she may not love me again can be really devastating. Its devastating right now / this evening.

Being whiny and pleading IS NOT ATTRACTIVE.

When you ASK her why she doesnt love you or why why this or that, it is NOT ATTRACTIVE for a male to do that to a female.

Like I've said thousands of times before. BE BOND. Be somebody else for a while.

But BE that guy who can engage her in great conversation while looking and smelling great. Give her tons of contact, then suddenly bolt out the door with gym bag packed and say, "Love you, but I have to go workout. See you when I get home."

You stay a bit more strong and silent. NO more pleading. You realize that as a ww, she is really like Bond's double agent girlfriends from say, Russia, where they are sweet to him one second, then shoot him with a dart in the neck the next. You are charming to her, but realize until she is an XWW, she will be a bit dangerous.

YOu charm her, woo her, and then when she is in your arms you tell her that she's a great woman because SHE HAS A GREAT GUY, and that you are holding out for everything...the right woman, the right feeling, and that you want things right.

She can also find out (you will tell her) that you are holding out for the most passionate, exciting marriage ever. And that if she isn't that woman, she can see her kids every other weekend and pack her bags. Paint a negative picture to her while smiling charmingly at her. You tell her that YOU are a great catch, and that you think she is too, and that she should try. Kiss her passionately and go to the gym or leave the house. YOu do NOT BECOME A PUSHOVER.

She wants boyfriends b/c she wants mystery and excitement. Look even if posom is not around now, it is the FEELING of that sneaky stuff that makes her giddy, makes her want what her friends have. So give her that. A hot, mysterious guy who has his own life for a little bit (gym and work) and still makes time for her, but does NOT LET HER WALK ON HIM.

When I met my dh, I met my match. He was strong, silent, and kinda like that Bond guy but without a license to kill. Maybe kill me with his hotness??? Anyhow, he is still that way. He is not a pushover, yet he works to meet my needs and keeps me wanting to meet his. It is that mystery he still has. Do you see that?

No pleading or begging and always looking your best and charming her socks off is what does it. Great, sparkling conversation about her, and her ideas. And being less predictable.

I know. I appreciate all of that. Thank you.

A few months ago, I would have had a really hard time not showing her my hurt and pain. I desperately want to share with her and plead. It used to touch her heart. But not anymore. Maybe it never did. Once however, she did ay, "A full range of emotions is attractive."

Excellent

So my wife wasn't sure if she felt violated or if a boundary was crossed. But her therapist certainly does. Therapist thinks that was just awful to talk to her father.
"Such a boundary issue. Upsets me."

Who cares what upset YOU, damn therapist. Does it bother your client? Are you supposed to force your opinion?

I think it's bothersome if my motivation is somehow mean or cruel. I want to save this marriage. My wife said to her Dad, "You would move heaven and earth to save this marriage." Well, I want to believe she finally believes I would too. But right now, she would not.

Lowsy therapists. Her spouse is not her enemy. This is not war. This is love. A family!!

I love her Dad and I love her. He wants to help. He doesn't know what to do. He wants to save this marriage too.

So was it so terrible? I don't think so. My wife isn't sure. Her therapist is sure apparently. Are multiple opinions allowed in the world? Is it okay for different POVs to exist.

What does my wife think? Her Dad offered to help. He offered to talk to me months ago. He called me. Last February... it was HE who called me. And we talked for a long time up at his house in June. And I asked him on Sunday if we would call me again sometime. So he did.

I want her to get over the idea that there are mean motivations here. There are two men that love and adore her and are willing to do anything for her. Wow. How many women have no father figure and no devoted husband.

Maybe I should say: "You are very blessed to have two men, your most important male relations in the world, so in love and devoted to you."

Defensive judgement?

Clearly, I see this therapist as an enemy. Very snap judgment about people she has never met.

Did you hear her therapist say this? or did it come from your WW cuz........waywards lie.

It is true that many therapists are awful. Nothing you can do about that. And, your WW is going to pick and choose what she is going to hear. Whatever gets her believing that she is right, she will twist it.

She may have told you before that a range of emotions is good. Right now, that range should be Plan A, carrot AND stick.

Some carrot and some stick needed.

Because I am running out of gas. There isn't much she is doing to nurture me and meet my emotional needs. At all.

Unfortunately, it may just be that she is not into me anymore. Can't summon up the spark.

Our MB plan is all about building it. With intentional actions. Love Languages says love becomes a choice. Just waiting for the spark to "happen" is immature love. Our love is something we've built.

But I am just running out of the willingness to feel unloved. And be hurt by her actions and neglect.

Stick: it's nearly over. January seems like a long, long time from now. Hard to stick around that long.

Sounds like MY WIFE!!!
New clothes!
New Hair style!
New Hair color! (Gotta color that gray....can't accept the aging process!)
New paint on the apartment walls!
Still same face in the mirror.....Hmmmmmmmm

Northwoods pointed out that chagning external things does help depression. Like, exercise, diet, clothes, sunshine.

I am exhausted from tip toe'ing around her depression now I have realized. The line she uses that has too much power over me is: "That made me feel bad."

She says that about a lot of people. Not just me. Everyone has to be careful not to make her feel bad.

Look, I can even learn to live with and nurture and support a spouse with depression. But I cannot do it if I don't feel safe, secure and loved in this marriage.

Stretch, I shall say this only once..

FIRE THE DAMN COUNSELOR/THERAPIST/CHARLATAN.

They do no good.

Want to know what happened when I took my xwh to see a "really good Christian therapist who's helped many couples?" I was referred to her from a Church in the city I'd just moved to.

Found out she'd helped THOUSANDS of couples DIVORCE. Sure did. In maybe a "Christian" manner.

I came in to see her at the height of the affair, and I was predictably not sleeping, not eating, (the affair diet), looked like a mess, and had a very very active 3 year old son. I didn't know many people so I had to bring my child in to see the counselor with me.

Darth came in next (refused to do the counseling WITH me) and was sharp dressed, well-rested (well he was living at his playboy apartment down in another stylish part of town with no child to attend to) and saw her and they talked.

The counselor said i WAS ALL OVER THE PLACE, disorganized in thought, disheveled, looked like I was not probably bringing food into the home (hell I was on the affair diet but my son was eating like a champ), and that NO WONDER my xwh was angry at me. She said judging from my appearance I must not have kept a "nice home" (my home WAS SPOTLESS!). Darth came in and lied to her and led her to come to a 100% WRONG conclusion. He felt justified in seeing her.

Needless to say, she FAILED to recognize the signs of a mentally abused woman yet that I was a wonderful mom. Back then I had (the recommendations were different 8-10 yrs ago) done about a 4 month plan A and it had taken its' toll on me. She also FAILED to recognize clinically a serial cheater and a chronic liar too. Did I fail to mention he is a clinically diagnosed (now he is) NARCISSIST and sociopath?

They help people FACILITATE DIVORCE and get to know their feelings. How the heck Stretch does that heal a marriage? Nah. Does zip. So walk into the kitchen, VIOLATE your wife by kissing her passionately, gym bag packed in hand, you looking far too hot to go to the gym, and tell her, "Honey, I've FIRED the damn therapist. Our marriage is so important, I'm taking this to the top. To the head honcho. We'll see if we can get to the bottom of YOUR problem and YOUR depression. I'm holding out on you a bit longer, because I think you're worth it, but I'm nearing the end of my patience in this matter and won't be along with you for much more of your behavior." Then you arrange to do phone counseling w/Dr. H. But don't tell her.

Tell her this doc is so important, that he has radio shows, is so in demand that unless you two fly to see him, you'll have to do phone sessions.

Assert yourself. Then take your butt off to the gym or some park and let her wonder...is he REALLY running or working out and lifting looking that good? Make her off balance. Make her wonder why on earth you'd waste your time on her crazy making behaviors. Push some of this BACK onto her. After all, NOBODY LIKES wishy washy, touchy-feely, needy or whiny men chasing after them.

Women want strong, attractive, daring, and exciting guys. If you want a quick synopsis on that, go look at the romance novel section. Some ripped dude on the cover with a smoldering look on his face (you can stop at the half-buttoned shirt though). So GIVE her that guy AND TAKE CHARGE. Enough of the half baked shrink ok? Stop that now or YOU WILL BE LEARNING how to get in touch with your inner crying child as the therapist helps you prepare emotionally (and your inner child) for divorce. A friendly, "it's nobody's fault but let's try to be friends" divorce".

Stretch, this may be the hardest note I�ve ever written.

You have detailed the lack of affection and basic decency that your wife has exhibited toward you. The pain comes across clearly and starkly. You have been at this battle for months, and, except for eliminating any OM in your wife�s situation, you have little or nothing to show for it. Currently, it is obviously not an ideal marriage; it is not a good marriage; it might not even be (in contemporary definition) an acceptable marriage. It is not a marriage that anyone would want, and certainly not one that you would have signed up for.

It is however the marriage you have. And I, for one, am expecting you to hold to it.

Infidelity is NOT your current problem right now. Your wife�s too-evident mental/emotional neuropathy is the problem. She is sick. And you vowed to stay with her �through sickness and in health.�

Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Stop checking off days until you feel authorized to leave. You do not have that �Get Out of Marriage Free� card that BSs whose spouse�s major problem was cheating hold. Thinking about �when� and �how� to bail will insidiously work against doing everything you can to get her the treatment and help she needs.

There must be support groups for spouses whose partners suffer from emotional flaws. Find one. Your wife�s odd notions of happiness (or lack of same) must be obvious to others. Enlist them in your search and campaign.

Stop considering her as an opponent. Consider her as a teammate (even if she does not) in getting her the help she needs. When she says, about something you�re doing, �That makes me feel bad,� your consistent answer should be, �It shouldn�t; it�s not meant to; and the sooner we can change the way you see that, the better you will feel.�

No one (certainly not an untrained colleague) can assure you that she will ever be caring, affectionate and loving in �X-number� of years. BUT�..absent some other marriage-destructive action on her part, this colleague would be disappointed in you if you and she were not still married in �X-number� of years.

Please remember this site is "Marriage Builders", not "Marriage Enders."

I agree the above is a good plan. And you know what, I suspect that's what she secretly WANTS to hear...though she may not even know it yet.

Stretch, your wife's mental capacity will not allow her to initiate any broad strokes for recovery. Depression's a [censored], it saps the life out of people and leaves them just kind of "there" floating in the breeze from one moment to the next. You'll have to lead the charge and it's up to her to follow.

I imagine she will resist because she'll feel overwhelmed and it'll be easier to fall back into the toxic friends (which includes, apparently, the therapist) as they allow her to do whatever the hell makes her happy.

But you'll have to insist.


She's sick to a point, but not helpless or insane in the eyes of the law. She knows what she's doing, but the depression assists in her giving up, doing what's easy, throwing in the towel...whatever you want to call it. Having those dipsh*ts in the sidelines supporting this "happiness at all costs" isn't helping and she's going to have to choose between them and stretch.

But if he doesn't force her to make that decision (and she's perfectly capable of making it) then she'll likely just continue on the way she is. The depression reduces her ability to make concise decisions and leaves her feeling overwhelmed whenever any crisis appears. I doubt she'd file for a divorce as the sheer thought process required to do so would probably make her keel over. The same can be said about recovery, but if stretch can approach it as a joint effort then I think he'd have a good shot at it.

But stretch, if you're just counting down the days waiting for her to suddenly get her crap together before you leave, then you might as well divorce now. So put that mentality aside for a bit, ok?

And you don't want to have sex with this woman if she's not all there. You won't feel any better because you'll know it was "pity sex" or something like that. It won't change anything. Ok?

Once she's in a better frame of mind, it'll probably work itself out.

So drop that therapist, make a plan and tell her what the plan is going to be. Take charge of it.

I remember our first MC telling me that it was ok for my WW to continue working with OM since their desks were across the building from each other...about 50-ft or so.

Uh, yeah, ok.