TexasTwo: I know hearing that must hurt. I know first hand I know how much that hurts and even thinking about what I heard now 21 years ago... I still remember how it stung.
Two things...
One, you are more important than ever right now in you WW's world or she would not share that with you. As crazy as that may sound...
Two, you are entitled to grieve over what you hear and see and feel and its okay to tell us. Do not be afraid to visit your doctor for medication to make this stage easier to take.
Three (okay I know I said two things)....
There is hope.
Your wife is the panic stricken swimmmer and you are the life guard who must pull her from the water even as she fights you in terror.
You are needed and you can do this.

Prayers and Blessings for both of you and your marriage.
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.

Thanks guys....

After a good cry....and scream. I texted her at work these words...

"I'm not leaving you, I'm not giving up on Us. I have tried for the past 2 months to show you I Love You, I will try for as long as it takes. You deserve someone who puts you #1, that person is me.....not someone in a fantasy. You are worth the effort. I will not let you ever forget it. Let me show you how happy we can be. If you just relax, accept my love, and trust me...we will have a marriage like we have never had. I will not hurt, embarrass or neglect you. In return, I ask you to be honest, love me, and hold me above all others in your life. Never, Always and Forever... ARE words we can use with each other. I will never touch another women, I will always think of your feelings, and I will Love you Forever."

A few minutes later she texted back, that she was sorry and that made her cry. She doesn't know why she can't just accept my love. She says she is trying, and doesn't want to hurt me by being honest...

What now? I am firm in staying positive, showing her love, meeting her EN, and not showing her any pain I am in. Anything else you guys think I'm missing???

Darn Tex,

I'm sorry man. I can only think of two things

1) something is triggering her constantly and she's can't get OM out of her head

2) She is still somehow in contact with OM in some way.

Question for others who are reading... Is it good for Tex to never show pain or disappointment?

CV

CV, I'll consider your possibilities as viable, but let me put it to T2S this way -

WW: I don't know if I can enjoy sex with you.
T2S: SF in its various forms is a part of the bond that defines a marriage. Without it there is no true union. Either get your own selfish, arrogant head straightened out on this matter, or be prepared to see me walk away from you. You've got three days - take your time!

There has been entirely too much "Oh, dear, how-are-you-feeling-today crap infiltrating your treatment of Little Miss Opinionated". This would be appropriate if you were dealing with a nervous 12-year-old going to summer camp, but at some point, WW has to know that in her case there are legitimate expectations of adult behavior that, if unsatisfied, can lead to seriously deleterious consequences.

"I liked boning OM, but can't generate the same warm feeling about loving you" Really ?????? Are you seriously not enraged by this garbage? I'm enraged, and I don't have to listen to it.

As a sideline to your other question, CV: Yes, I think it is appropriate and worthwhile for T2S to show disappointment! Maybe by taking a chainsaw to her car!

Excellent post.

Sounds to me like there is contact.

NG,

I don't know how there would be contact. Her boss watches her email, I watch house emails and cell phone records. She told me she is torn between being honest with me and letting me know her feelings and calling him and having me find out. She says either way, she has made me mad and hurt me again. How long does this freaking fog stay around? She is a "hoarder of memories" and I'm sure she is holding on as hard as she can.....

In my reading of SAA, I am to be as nice and caring as possible. Meet her EN and let her fog clear.....If I show disappointment, am I not somehow keeping her from letting go? Should I put demands for SF on her? Will that not just cause resentment?

I would love to say "We are having SF tonight, or you can find somewhere else to lay your pretty little head tomorrow.." but I don't think that is in the MB hand book.??

It tough to be a Loving spouse and a Hard [censored] at the same time.....is 2 months long enough? Is it time to move to hard [censored]? Is Plan B my next major move? We are pleasant around each other most of the time. It is just when we discuss how I am doing, that things get heated....she feels guilty, I tell her to be as honest as she can, and boom!! A bomb can go off....other times she breaks down and cries, sausage doesn't know why.....says she doesn't fell worthy of being loved...yadda yadda.... She has had her AD meds increased since DDay..

I don't know how there would be contact.

My note addressed 'contact' not at all.

My post addressed the fact that WW is treating you with contempt and disdain, and evidently you're okay with that. Spoiled, willful, children will act that way until they understand that negative consequences can be applied.

She catted around with Mr. OM until you made it impossible to continue that activity. She has decided to "punish" you for "correcting" her. We've seen this played out here WAAAAAY too often.

There HAS to be an adult in this relationship. She is the 13-year-old who has had her "toy" taken away. You apparently want to play the "Boy Scout". Failure awaits.

SEX is the canary in your coal-mine here. She is looking to "get over" her affair without doing the work to FIX THE EFF'ING PROBLEM!

Do you want to see what she should be doing now? Read HelpForDad's or MikeStillSmiling's posts on "In Recovery"; read Mirrormirror's post here.

The "carrot" without a "stick" is worse than useless. It merely results in overfed, underacheiving asses.

NG,

Sorry to misrespesent your earlier post. It was about my cauddling of her. I am just s few chapters into SAA, but the part I read and have read here says not to make demands. Demands take away deposits from her love bank. I

I will read the post you suggested. I appreciate your insight and advice.

I don't want to be the Boy Scout...I want to be the Eff'ing Marines. Here to protect the family, offer safety and security. Killing ( figuratively ) anything that poses a threat to it. I killed the AF, stopped all contact, exposed, and have been the loving husband she said she wanted. She comes in and out of this fog....today it was thick. She told me the only people in her life who have never left her or made her feel unloved are the kids. I know I was not perfect, but I am changing. I am going to be a better husband.!!

It was me. I suggested contact. I was thinking maybe a prepaid phone or something.

So... Maybe I am taking too many liberties with "nice and caring", but let me suggest that it is neither nice nor caring to allow certain behaviors continue. Many times I have equated WS's with kids in the way they act and think. Sometimes with our kids, the loving and "nice" thing to do is be a hard-a$$.

Whadda ya think Tex?

CV

CV,

I want to be the hard A**, it is the easy thing for me to do. I have been struggling with when to stop the playcateing and just say to her.... This is how it is going to be. But everything I read, says take on the burden of being the good guy, make her feel loved, make her feel like she will be missing out by continuing this fantasy.

I have asked, is 2 months long enough? NG seems to think so. What about the rest of the vets?

...You deserve someone who puts you #1, that person is me.....not someone in a fantasy. You are worth the effort. I will not let you ever forget it. Let me show you how happy we can be. If you just relax, accept my love, and trust me...we will have a marriage like we have never had. I will not hurt, embarrass or neglect you. In return, I ask you to be honest, love me, and hold me above all others in your life. ...

From what you told us, you have been really good in plan A.
What struck me in the text, is that it was a lot about what she deserves and though also a little about what you ask from her, but in my opinion, you might want to shift it a little to: WE deserve to be happy as can be, I showed you how it can be, when we both work on it. This is what you can expect if you are on board.

You know, a little bit more sovereign on your part. You have really been the hero in these 2 months and you are (becoming) a fantastic husband (any woman would be thrilled to have) and you deserve the best marriage. Period.

God bless you,

Happyheart

Ive been saying what NG said for days now.

Her emotions are dictating this whole recovery attempt and they are nowhere near where a remorseful wife should be.

I agree a firm time line is in order.

He's being too nice in my opinion. She's assaulting the health and well being of a lot of people and it has to end. She's a grown woman acting like a spoiled baby who can't get what she wants.

Going back to the conditions for recovery from an affair:

1.) No contact of any kind for life with AP. (no FB peeks either.)

2.) Fully integrated transparent lifestyle

3.) Rebuilding the romantic love so that the marriage is better and stronger than pre-A. (Just Compensation)

The third condition has not been met yet. Two months is long enough for your W to recognize that she has a responsibility to your marriage, just like you have. She needs to start meeting your ENs, just as you've been meeting hers.

If my FWH had continued to mourn for sex with his AP, it would have been deeply wounding to me. Not sure I could have continued living with him under that condition.

Has she told you what it is she doesn't enjoy about SF?

You could get Dr. H's opinion regarding your situation by emailing the radio show with your circumstances: mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

The problem, apparently, is that while your efforts ended the physical sheet-soaking, the affair lives on, in her mind and heart.

Certain WWs have the remarkable ability of being camels-of-love, maintaining enough affection for their OMs to sustain them through the affection-desert they themselves created with their BHs.

Yours seems to have the condition worst than most. That sux, but experience since I've been on board here is that "enticing" those emotions from them has not been effective.

Being treated so dismissively for two months must be galling. Imagine your LB$ if this were to go on for a year. The problem before you is to inject the concepts of "if" and "but" into your marital dynamic, as in:

• You are willing to put in the effort to recover, IF.........
• You understand this process will not be instantaneous, BUT.........

I do not envy you your situation, T2S.

Thanks to all you earlier morning posters.....I told her this morning I could not continue to be her roommate. I put it like this.... I have been the person you have wanted for the past 2 months, you now need to ask yourself, What is it you are willing to do to meet my needs, and what is it you are not. Let's compare those two and work together. We start this weekend.

I also took her wedding ring, she has said she needs it resized. I haven't decided if I give it back or use it as leverage. My hope is someone at work will ask, she will then see others are watching and noting changes. She says everyday that she loves me and wants to stay together. I feel manipulative by doing this, but I am out of ideas.

51, radio sounds like a great place.

NG, your history here gives me hope. Please stay on my thread. I foresee some more tuff days ahead of me.

And yes... I am hurt, angry, galled to the extreme, sad, emotionally spent.....it Sux big time. But the option of working to fix this is better then the D option.

Stay positive and picture a happier time, that's what I do.

T2S -
I am not an expert. Just a guy who is on marriage # 2 and trying to recover from betrayal who had experiences very similar to yours in marraige #1 where I was also betrayed. BUT... in my marriage # 1 back in 1990 - 91 I went through several months of my then wife behaving in the manner you are describing. She would cry about missing "his car," or his "voice." She would ask me to be her best friend and then I would listen to her talk about how much she loved him. I acted caringly. There was no Marriage Builders on the internet but I instinctively did Plan A but I did not put boundaries out to protect myself. Then one day I just cracked. I found a Christmas Present wrapped up and addressed to him. When I calmly confronted my then WW she told me that she wanted him to know (even though she wasn't seeing him anymore) how much she loved him. Two hours later with my WW out of the house I fell apart. I have never been the same person ever since. Ever. I lost something that never came back. If I had it to do over, I would have set a date with WW when I would no longer listen to what I now know is fog babble. In my case back then, the fog babble went on for six months. Eventually I could take it no more and I moved out and she immediately filed for D. What I feel I did wrong (I will never know for sure), was try to console her when she grieved over her lover. I should have calmly listened, then I should have told her calmly that I understand her confusion and fantasy but that if she wants to live in a marriage with me that I will not allow her to live in fantasy land anymore. I would explain to her that I EXPECT her to create boundaries not just for her actions but for her feelings. I would explain that her grief over her lover when expressed to me is a huge form of emotional abuse that I do not deserve to receive. I would tell her that I EXPECT her to participate in the marriage and that at some point SF is necessary to stop her fantasy's about OM. I would explain to her that her unwillingness to give to me through SF is making her act as if she committed to OM and that in reality she committed to me in marriage. I would explain (calmly) to her that her guilt is making her think she is or was in love, that in reality she is and was "in fantasy." Her guilt is making her want to believe that love made her do what she did and that she cannot let herself believe she loved me because it makes her feel to guilty and accountable. I would tell her that the simple reality is, she has not broken the bond to OM until she freely gives herself to you. In esseence, once she betrays the OM like she betrays you, her feelings for OM will begin to fall away like autumn leaves and that in the months ahead you will have a winter as she lets go of the fantasy and that a beautiful spring in your marriage will take place. I would tell her that the responsibility for this change is on her back and that you EXPECT her to do it.
I would then ask her not to say "yes" but I would talk with her until she could virtually repeat to you that plan just as detailed above and commit to it.
I have done management training in the real world for decades and one of the things I train people in is that when you want to change a behavior in someone you do not tell them what you want and ask them to say yes they will do it. (At work if a manager does this he/she has less than a 15% chance of success. But, ask the employee to detail out exactly what they are going to do to change and the chance of success jumps to 65%. Plain and simple there is something in the human mind that increases commitment when a person states exactly what they are going to do to change versus when you ask them to change and they just say yes.
Okay... maybe my advice will help you. Maybe not. I just know that if I was back in 1990, I would have created safe boundaries for not just the marriage but me. I do not believe you will be able to take months of your WW grieving to you and you should not. That is emotional abuse. She, not you, must deal with the emotional pain of her decisions.
I admire you T2S more than I can express.

Prayers and Blessings for both of you and your marriage.
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.

Tex,

having been a Marine (in real life and taking this tact), I can tell you the benefits and down-sides of this approach.

The gains you get from this kind of approach are most often long-term. The respect from taking the hard stance don't come immediately, but rather after having established a track record.

respect and "like" are not always the same thing. Someone may respect you, but they won't necessarily "like" you for taking the hard stance.

My in-laws are an example of this, as is my wife. This was/is the approach I've taken to our marriage since the beginning. Hard-but-fair. The thing is, you have to apply the same principles to yourself also.

My in-laws have never liked me. Were infuriated with me after the A (but not at my W). They were upset that I exposed OM at his work and cost him his job (they never met him), they were upset that I told them that I would not just forgive and forget.

Grace on the other-hand was not appreciative of how I took a hard stance on things until after the A was found out and immediately saw why I did certain things the way I did. To her, it was "heroic" (her words, not mine).

let me see if I can give you an example...

After Dday, I took a hard approach with my W when she told me she wanted to stay. I told her this:

"Grace, you have talked enough for a lifetime with OM and your time for talking is done. Your words are damaging and hurtful. You are going to change if you are going to remain here. You don't have the same learning curve others have, yours is very short, shorter than you can possibly imagine, and if you don't get it together, grow up and learn, you are gone. Not because I don't love you, but because you are a dangerous person and you need to be defused. I am doing this because I love you, not because I hate you."

I dictated the terms for recovery and told her that 100% compliance is required at all times, and that like a marine, when she is told to do something (ie: not talking to men unless I am present or only for work stuff), she will obey instantly and fully or she is out.

This is how I protected her (and me) for months until that learning curve was caught up on. The Ep's still remain in place though.

Does this help at all?

CV

Some WS see their lives flash before them and are quick to save a vestige of what was. Others need a stronger hand.

Tex, yours is the latter.

Same difference in reality. WS need a firm admonition whether they are on-board with saving the marriage or, like yours, are a slow waker from the deep foggy sleep.

I suggest your firm up your expectations of her and ease off the 'take-your-time-and-when-youre-ready-to-come-back,-Im-here for-you' rhetoric.

I still get steamed over the fact the my wifes OM said to her that I would never leave her should their A get exposed. Turns out he was right, but in the early stages she wasnt so sure. I made her uncomfortable. Its the leverage we have.

Start using it.

CV & MSS,

My hard stance starts this weekend. She has already responded she doesn't want to stay, wants to work on us. She says she knows she has been selfish and is done telling me about her thoughts of him.

I will use both examples and word an ultimatum tonight.

I may also use some of this pycho babble to help her over her thoughts the way I have. When I have dark thoughts, I think of my oldest daughter being born or my daughters running to me and jumping in my arms. I will suggest that when she thinks of him, she might think of her girls crying bc their mom has been kicked out of the house, or her daughters wedding without her bc they don't trust her....a few days of those thoughts, and she should not only stop thinking of him, but should look at him as a threat to her ultimate happiness...?? Any thoughts??