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MrsVanilla, I posted this to your husband, MikeX, on his thread, but i wanted you to see it too: I appreciate the advice that this may be because of a lack of undivided attention, but I don't think that's true. This past week was a little unrepresentative because we were out of town for easter, so I'll give the list of typical activities we do. During the weekdays, I'm home around 6:30pm. My son is in bed by 7pm. We have dinner together (my FWW is a great cook) for about an hour and a half. We have SF at least 5X a week (believe it or not), which adds at least a half-hour to our undivided attention time together each time. The babysitter comes on both days during the weekend, and we have dinner by ourselves on Saturday and breakfast by ourselves on Sunday. My in-laws are in town, so they pick up our son for the weekend every 2-3 months or so. As Harley recommended, we go over the emotional needs questionnaire periodically (every 6 months), and usually everything seems to be covered. Sorry, I just read this, MrVanilla!! I see you are posting again to your wife and wanted to respond to this. In order for UA time to be effective, it needs to be spent in 2 to 4 hour blocks AWAY from home. [except the sex part, obviously] Spending the bulk of your UA time at home with a sleeping child is not what Harley had in mind. Doing it at home like that is not effective because you are a) tired, b) easily distracted by waking children, chores, phone calls c) sitting around in your sloppy clothes looking tired. What Harley suggests is going OUT when you have the most energy, dressing up and being really TOGETHER. As you have learned, it is NOT effective UA time. Many couples make the mistake of living their lives essentially the same but going back and doing a "check the box" on UA by tallying up meaningless contact throughout the day, ie: 15 minutes at breakfast, 10 minutes here, 30 minutes here. That does not work. What it takes to make this work is to sit down with your wife on Sunday and schedule out TWENTY FIVE hours of UA time throughout the week. [20-25 to create romantic love and 15 hours to maintain] Go out at least 3 nights during the week and 2 days during the weekend so that the BULK of your time is quality, effective, meaningful UA time. In terms of romantic love, I agree it's not there. I can't get myself to do things I used to do. For example, pre-affair, I would have gladly taken off my coat on a spring day so my wife could use it and would tolerate the cold. Now, even though I know it would be a nice thing to do, I just can't get myself to do it. Yes, you can get yourself to do it. The way to change attitudes it to change BEHAVIOR. Feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS and I see from this remark that you are waiting for a magic feeling to attack you against your will before you change your behavior. Oh no. That is not how this works. You need to change your behavior FIRST in order for your feelings to FOLLOW. And of course you won't "feel like it" at first. No one does when they are creating new habits. Do you and MrsVanilla have the UA worksheet in the back of the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I do not actually understand V�s BH. Why does he not move on already? Because somewhere along the way, he determined that wallowing in the memory of the A served a purpose for him. I suspect he found that he could control/punish Mrs. V by keeping it foremost in his mind. Dr. Harley: Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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What is the MB method, or Dr H�s explicit direction, or perhaps this forum�s advice (direct this question as you see fit) for this fundamental and bottom line issue: What best gets a skittish and/or angry BS to recommit to the adulterated marriage? The truth is that many betrayed spouses CAN'T get past it. Many betrayed spouses cannot get past it and choose to move on. That is their right and their prerogative. Like Harley says, we will help you if you WANT to save your marriage, but we will also support anyone who chooses to move on. Marriage Builders does not profess a desire to force a BS to stay in a marriage against his will. Dr. Willard Harley from his infidelity video here When I first started doing this, I could not imagine anybody getting over it. Now, there are a lot of people that have told me that they haven't gotten over it. Thirty years has gone by, and they haven't gotten over it. But they haven't gone through the procedure I recommend, either. The people that have gone through this procedure that I recommend HAVE gotten over it. And to me it's the most amazing thing that you can go through the worst experience of your life -- somebody hurting you in the worst way possible -- and, two years later, you love the guy, you trust the guy, you forgive the guy, you never wanna lose the guy. To me, that's amazing. It's what love is all about. It's what male-female relationships are all about. And when you do things the right way, you can restore a relationship even when a professional like me looks at it and thinks it's hopeless. I got a procedure that works even when I think it's hopeless! Even when I don't think... "I think you oughtta' leave the guy! What a jerk!" "No, I don't really wanna leave the guy. Tell me what I can do to save the marriage." "Well, OK, I'll give you some help." So, you know, this is what I do. I do this for a living. I help people solve problems where I'm not always convinced that they oughtta' be solved. But I know how to solve 'em. This is the way... this is the way do it. If a person says "I don't want to save my marriage", I'd say "I agree! You have no argument with me! Your spouse did something that, from my perspective, is the most disgraceful thing imaginable. If you wanna leave him for that, you have my blessings."
But people have come to me and said "I want you to help me save my marriage." "OK, I can do that, too. This is how to do it." But it's a very narrow road, and I don't know of another way that can be accomplished. I don't know of another way. You can never see or talk to the [affair partner]* again, you're gonna go through a period of withdrawal that's, that's, that's a little bit ugly, and then you're gonna have to learn how to achieve these three goals in your marriage: You're gonna have to learn how to make all of your decisions with each other in mind. You're gonna have to learn how to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness. And you're gonna have to learn how to meet each other's emotional needs. *Dr. Harley says 'spouse' here in the video, but it's obvious he means the affair partner, who most often is married him or herself
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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What is the MB method, or Dr H�s explicit direction, or perhaps this forum�s advice (direct this question as you see fit) for this fundamental and bottom line issue: What best gets a skittish and/or angry BS to recommit to the adulterated marriage? I should qualify this by saying that sometimes Just Compensation, committment to recovery, and a PROACTIVE adherence to extraordinary precautions can sometimes bring a skittish BS on board. And sometimes NOT. Every BS needs to decide for themselves if they are willing to stay. They are all perfectly within their rights to walk away. But NO BS should stay around unless those conditions are met.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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But if my FWW told everyone that she's moved on passed the affair and left me to deal with emotional issues relating to the affair, I don't think that's correct. It tells me that she doesn't appreciate the gravity of what she did. Again, it's a matter of degree. I never got the impression from Mrs. V that she's 'moved on' past the affair. Did she post this somewhere and I just missed it? I have always gotten the sense that Mrs. V is incredibly remorseful for her actions and is allowing her H to set the pace for his recovery. That's great, but I think he's a little high-handed and I think in some cases he is punishing her for being the cause of his pain. Mrs. V has very little control over that. I, personally, think Mr. V needs to quit wasting time and mental space over the affair and get on with the business of recovering and bettering the marriage. He can't/won't put the A in the rearview mirror, IMO. He keeps it on the dashboard. Another point, here, which came up on my own thread - someone posted once that my BH's pain was his to deal with, and someone countered that they disagreed - it was not his alone to deal with, but he had to decide to let me help. A FWS may be more than willing to help their BS deal with their pain, but the BS has to allow the FWS to help. Admitting to feeling pain, and asking for help, is allowing oneself to be vulnerable. And what are any of us vulnerable to when we ask for help? Many see asking for help as a sign of weakness. We fear if we allow our weaknesses to be seen, that someone may take an opportunity to wound us further. When you allow someone so close to your heart, they can hurt us like no other, so the refusal of a BS to allow the FWS to see them as vulnerable is understandable. The BS can forever close their LB$ to the FWS, regardless of what the FWS does to try and offer just compensation, needs-meeting and so forth. If we refuse to allow anyone close enough to comfort us in our pain, paradoxically we risk not having anyone close to us to share our joy. It has the potential to make us very lonely people. I don't want that for my H, and yet am powerless to do anything about it, since I was the cause. I would like nothing more than to love him and be loved in return, but yeah, as a FWS that does, on its face, appear that I am being somehow rewarded for my sins and my H would be getting what I promised that I would give him 14 years ago, and I already broke that promise...what guarantee can I give him that it wouldn't happen again, when he can't believe my words and doesn't trust my actions? Time and consistency (with EPs, ENs) may be the key, but it may not. I'm certainly not an expert, as I have not mastered my own struggle with fear and vulnerability. I struggle with knowing where the line is between neediness and simply allowing myself to be vulnerable, and struggle with my own fears of unworthiness and the feeling like I don't deserve anything from my BH. I talked about not having expectations, but there's a difference between no expectations and feeling like you don't deserve anything, if that makes sense.
Last edited by wulffpack_girl; 09/25/11 03:28 PM. Reason: Clarification
FWW
"Snow and adolescence are the only problems that disappear if you ignore them long enough." ~ Earl Wilson
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So, a question relevant to this thread for MB experts.
What is the MB method, or Dr H�s explicit direction, or perhaps this forum�s advice (direct this question as you see fit) for this fundamental and bottom line issue: What best gets a skittish and/or angry BS to recommit to the adulterated marriage? My most recent breakthrough was in writing out EP's and the conditions of divorce under infidelity, including a line for signatures of acknowledgement. For myself, doing this meant that none of the terms or conditions contained within will ever have to be discussed again - it is set in ink, clear and concise. Because of this, I feel I have clearly communicated my requirements for continuing and recovering the marriage. I caught a scant amount of heat, but I didn't share it as much for opinions or editing as to put out a general step that I had recently taken - which is an advised step - written EP's.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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What best gets a skittish and/or angry BS to recommit to the adulterated marriage? - Aphelion Just Compensation, committment to recovery, and a PROACTIVE adherence to extraordinary precautions can sometimes bring a skittish BS on board. And sometimes NOT.... - MelodyLane And I'll set the bar even a bit more tenuously by saying that historical developments in the marriage/affair, now well out of reach for current or future adjustment, play a HUGE role in the BS's view of the value of suffering the pain of recovery versus pulling the pin on the nearest D-grenade. - Are there dependent children to be considered?
- Was the "quality" or "value" of the marital existence "high" or merely "marginal"?
- What was the character of the discovery - surprise, confession, revelation by third party?
- And, obviously, what was the character of the betrayal - EA, PA, EA/PA, long- or short-term?
Just compensation, commitment, and extraordinary precautions are what are called "hygiene factors". (Think of washing your food before eating - doing so will not guarantee health, but not doing so promotes sickness.) FWSs should remove barriers to the BS deciding to reconcile, but actively "getting" them to do so is largely not within their power. Yogi Berra said it best: "If no one wants to be your customer, you can't stop 'em."
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Mrs Vanilla, is MikeX your H?
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Mrs. V is NOT my W. I've been following her story a little but haven't read all her posts and don't know the complete story. Just noticed that she mentioned that she had "moved on from the affair" and thought I'd add my 2 cents. Some of you didn't read my prior post in which I mentioned that I'm not asking that anyone be wallowing in anguish. I just think that an affair is significant enough that it should be something you think of very frequently - if not, I don't think you understand the gravity of what you've done. Again, that doesn't mean you should be wallowing in anguish.
I think the problem with some of the posts above is that they assume that BSs are in the marriage to stay in it for good. (Some of the posts also act like an affair is equivalent to "a night out with the guys" compensation - like I was home babysitting while you went out with the guys, so you now owe me.) A lot of us BSs are in constant limbo not because we want to punish the FWS, but because we just don't know what to do. It's not like we planned for this to happen. To simply say that the BS has to commit to the marriage just like before and not ever speak of the affair again is simply too much to ask IMHO. If my FWW asked me today that I had to choose between fully committing to the marriage and leaving it, I would leave. I have no doubt about that. Because my FWW and I have a son together I'm trying to get comfortable with the situation but struggle on a daily basis.
Not sure why Mrs. V's husband wants to leave his career because of the affair all of a sudden. That doesn't seem to make sense for me (and for a lot of others). Could you elaborate, Mrs. V?
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Wow. I have been out of town for the weekend, and I come back to a thread seeing more activity in two days than it has in two years! A lot of posts to process, as well as some sobering claims that it seems I need to address. I will try to get through this today, maybe after a bulk of my studying is finished. For now, I will second what MikeX clarified: no, he is NOT my DH! DH and I have talked about him posting here, back when I started, and my preference is still for him to post his own words, as mine always seem to backfire or be misconstrued - especially when it comes to painting a picture of him as a BS, if that makes sense. Thank you for those who have offered support of my actions/affirmed my good intentions - the emotional buttressing is always welcome.  (I should probably just edit that out, as someone will find a way to fault me for poorly-executioned self-disparagement!) Last thing for now: Mike, please read my original post carefully - and, in addition, it may behoove you to read the rest of my thread. You may find that introspection and appropriately verbalizing that are not my strong suits, so I often post attempts to think through things. Nowhere in the post you referenced did I say "I have unequivocally and without a doubt moved on from the A, and my BH can just rot." I'm being a bit dramatic, but that post and subsequent ones seem to support the hardening of that belief for you. I agree with you, and I am sure my DH would, as well, that to hear a WS/FWS say that would be a serious LBer, and I will try to clarify later. Thanks offering your take on all of that.
Me - 30 (FWW)
H - 30 (BH)
DSx2
D-day: 2008
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If my FWW asked me today that I had to choose between fully committing to the marriage and leaving it, I would leave. I have no doubt about that. Hi MrV!  It is understandable that some BS' can't get over it. But that does not entitle them to keep the WS around in a state of limbo for years of perpetual punishment. Do you think it helps your marriage in any way by demanding she dwell on the past? Of course, it is up to the WS to put a stop to it, and I would strongly suggest that MrsV put a stop to it. MrsV, I would strongly advise that you take Dr Harley's advice in dealing with a resentful spouse: I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"
What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."
To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."
My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him. MrsV, his expectation that you continually think about your affair is a way of demanding that you perpetually dwell on your past mistakes. Don't do it and do not allow him to do that to you.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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For now, I will second what MikeX clarified: no, he is NOT my DH! Why not email the moderators and ask them that question?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Hi Mel! I just notified the mods to see if they could clarify this for everyone. Thanks for the suggestion!
Me - 30 (FWW)
H - 30 (BH)
DSx2
D-day: 2008
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I do hope he clarifies this himself. It is wrong to lie to you and everyone here about this.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I don't even know what to type right now. It appears I may stand corrected...
Me - 30 (FWW)
H - 30 (BH)
DSx2
D-day: 2008
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I don't even know what to type right now. It appears I may stand corrected... I suspect you may be right...
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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Ummmm......why does MelodyLane keep insisting that I'm Mrs. V's H? Both of us confirmed that we're not....
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MikeX, thank you for giving me a smidgen of understanding as to what betrayal feels like.
Me - 30 (FWW)
H - 30 (BH)
DSx2
D-day: 2008
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Ummmm......why does MelodyLane keep insisting that I'm Mrs. V's H? Both of us confirmed that we're not.... Were you telling the truth when you "confimed" this?
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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Yes!! Not sure what's going on....
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