Hey stretch, Peachy, NW and NG have given you some great advice, which go along with the avenue I was also pointing to..the "No, this is the truth" approach, that we/you/both have to take charge of the mental state of your marraige.

You WILL have a great marriage and contribute every waking thought, plan, and action towards it!

Souunds like the therapist is keeping old wounds open, not defining them and putting them to bed for good.

Be Crazy Stretch, take charge of this stuff.

Praying for you guys

You got it!

That's fantastic advice

I will be her teamate working on this illness for the rest of our lives. I am committed to that. ANd not alone nor helpless. There are plenty of people (even close family and friends) who deal with this. And people in a heck of a lot worse situations.

I feel totally better now. Friday and Saturday were really low days. Ready to quit. I took my three youngest camping. Just daddy and the three of us. My little sister gave me a pep talk Saturday night via text. By the time me and the three youngest were done having a blast on Sunday afternoon I had my mind right.

Today in MC I was strong. Felt strong. Felt clear. And direct.

Just to clarify something.... we are seeing three therapists. Mine, hers and ours. I like my personal guy. Nice old fellow. Very blunt. I like our MC. Very seasoned therapist with a long marriage. I do not trust the new woman she is seeing. She sounds like the types Peachy and NW have seen. A nice divorce facilitator to help her "get in touch with her new truths and her new voice." All the while just accepting that the husband she has never met must be some kind of caricature and villian in a black hat.

Lets get back to that later...

Wow. I hadn't thought of it that way.
Yeah. She secretly wants me to take charge and be confident more often. The sheer overwhelming weight of divorce action is daunting as hell.

Today, I felt her "in the game". And I felt close to her. Even though we were having tough / direct conversations. Our Marriage Counselor is a great coach and motivator.

Tomorrow she goes to see her personal therapist. We'll talk about that more later like I said....

Today I took charge of old wounds and talked about how we needed to close them. I did it in the marriage counselor's office.

I posted above how she said one night she didn't want to go away with me for the weekend. Then, about a minute later she said very non-challantly that she and her girlfriends were planning their annual weekend away. This hurt. We spent some time on it last week and she thought... okay that was enough. But it wasn't for me. So we talked about it in MC again today.

There was some defending. There was some justification. There was some painting of half truths.

"Don't you think I've shown enough remorse for the affiar now?" No. She apologized back in Feb/Mar and then emailed him again. A few months ago she was still in the fantasy. Maybe she is fogged out from the writing of her book. I was clear: "I decide when the hurt is healed. Don't make me wrong for having hurt feelings. This is very normal. It takes TIME. Everyone says it takes time. You can't just get mad that I haven't 'let it go' already. It's pretty damn fresh. Its barely been killed. There are going to be triggers" (and the MC agreed. Those triggers are real. They will hit me. He doesn't know how long they take to go away. But she can't just demand or expect them to be gone.

She said, "Your trigger is that one time we went away on girfriends weekend two years ago and that was one time we all went to see them OM." NO! That's half the truth. You went away on many girfriend weekends. You went to see the other man many, many times with these friends. Don't spin it half-way.

I also said, "Its not enough to say, 'I am sad that you are hurt.' You need to admit: 'I hurt you. I am sorry that I caused the hurt.' And fix it."

She does sound different to me. More in control of herself. Less fogged out than in the past. This OM withdraw seems to be going through the process. I need to be strong to make sure its killed. Kill the A !!

Even in my darkest days of despair and total emotional wreckage.... I was following advice here gang and working to do step number one: Kill the Beast. Stab the Beast. That has been hard.

It still needs to be pulverized and kicked, decapitated, cremated and burried. Five months ago when she emailed the OM it wasn't dead. Obviously. In the ensuing five months it has been beaten into total submission. I need to stomp on it and make sure its completely dead. No phony / funny half truth stories.

She swears: "I don't think of him. We never talk of him...." But it hard to feel safe as the spouse.
Because:

She tried to re-engage and pick it up with him 12 months ago.
She cried over him 10 months ago.
She wished him happy birthday via email 9 months ago.
She cried about him on exposure day 8 months ago.
A month past exposure day she said, "My husband would puke if he knew how often I thought about him."
She wrote a silly email to him 5 months ago.
2 months ago she said: "He is disappating."
Today she says, "Its such old history. I thought we were totally past this. Why is this still present and fresh?"

I think... it did seem to me... that when I stood up for myself today she got it. She needs to own it and work on recovery.

On a much, much lighter and happier note...

It was a great weekend overall. I spent time with my kids and thoroughly enjoyed those relationships. My four year old laerned back on his sleeping bag in the tent and sighed: "I love camping Dad."

She had a great learning workshop. I was pleased to be there for the Friday night dinner.

Sunday we had a ton of relatives over for oldest son's birthday.

Sunday night we talked about our weekends and it was great catching up.

In bed later she said her head was still spinning from her weekend. So I took charge. Gave her a deep tissue massage.... all over. Gave her space and freedom to make her choice... but... I seduced her. And it was great. Good for us.

When that is missing from the marriage, it does a lot to widen the emotional distance between us.

I want Affection. That's a big need for me. More than just SF. But I like SF a lot too, of course. And she hasn't wanted to give me attention / affection.

take charge... ask for it... initiate it... she is waiting for her man to take the lead. Be respectful / not pushy. But she wants her man to take charge and be the leader sometimes. Often times.

As I said, a much happier, lighter story to end my posts for the night. Finally.

I like the progression stretch

Certainly a very real thing making love in that manner and I totally get what you were saying.

Yes keep stomping the crap outta that beast as it tries to establish a foothold. Its part of the work of recovery, and its allways outside the door waiting to sneak back in. Its also what we have all learned, is part of the EP and dedication to the marriage as being so important, as we dillegently defend it.

Hang in there, your working your way out of the woods.

Its key, and it is more than a want, its a need, which you are surely capable of providing my freind, don't ever let yourself be fooled that you aren't

It sounds like you got a good start at the MC session.

Don't forget to bring up the stupid book and toxic friends in MC. It sounds like both the book and toxic friends are very pro-OM (or, at least, anti-stretch) so she'd be hard-pressed to defend such things with a counselor worth his salt. Don't bother approaching those subjects with just the two of you, yet. You need a third party involved or it'll just turn into an argument.

The MC knows about the book, right?

I guess I'll applaud you for not losing your "shart" and tossing the manuscript and W out on the front yard, but I think the time is coming for that if the book is as insidious as it sounds. There's no way she'll progress in your marriage if she's writing about the OM--even if his name is changed in the book.

She admits that she is exploring that. She asks herself: "How much is this keeping me from recovering? Is it harmful to write this."

She said: "At some point the whole thing just stopped being my story and it became the fictional character's story. Tons in the manuscript are completely different. Last year, writing was part of my process. This year, its totally different."

Okay, she says that, but is she sure? Is she stomping out the beast too?

She admits she talks about it a lot with her therapist. I want to hear about it too. As a BS, I need to feel safe and know that it is dead for good. Can't feel that way right now for all the reasons I said above.

Sooooo, that would mean that "not tons" is not different, right?

The whole thing would just make me want to cuss, but I can see that you're trying to be patient and do the right thing.

Home Inspector: Well, stretch, you've got termites all over the house and it's gonna cost you a ton to get rid of them but, hey, they're not the same kind of termites you had last year!

She knows it isn't good and is just trying to avoid making a decision by pondering the meaning of life, navel gazing, whatever you want to call it.


At least she's talking about it, so that's your opportunity. Turn this around on her and ask her why (not if) she thinks that this is harmful and keeping her from recovering. Then, you can point to your own insecurities as a natural consequence of her actions and ask her what she's going to do to make you feel secure in the marriage.

Asking her to make a decision or give you a clear answer isn't wrong or bad or insensitive as long as your delivery method isn't yelling, screaming or hostile.

So push a little harder in MC next time, it sounds like you've at least gotten the ball rolling there.

Oh, and I'd bring up her IC in your joint session. Point out your concerns that the IC isn't pro-marriage...no need to really go into the "why" or to defend your thoughts, just toss the idea out there and be quiet. See what she says.

She went to see a lawyer. Why? Basically I believe because the IC said, "You should know your options..."

My IC is very clear, "Hey, I am pro-marriage. I don't want to steer my clients towards divorce."

I'll get back from my business trip and we'll talk more about this lawyer thing.

Somewhere a few posts back someone said, my wife will need to see the reality of what it looks like post-D. It's not some dreamy situation and half a divorce. It sucks. So perhaps the lawyer gave her some tough talk such as, "I can tell you it won't be easy on the other side. Give up any notion of that. It will stink."

What the hell?

Are you absolutely positively SURE there isn't someone else in the wings?

Your wife should explain just why she went to see an attorney. That's assuming that the money spent came out of joint funds.

I'd say have that talk that Peachy suggested--tell her to make a decision.

Because she "feels bad"
Because people around her dont know anything about saving marriage
Because society makes it easy
Because her therapist told her to

Bat [censored] crazy and foolish. And selfish. And avoiding hard work. She cannot say she tried 110% for her family.

Well, this morning she wrote that she is going to try the positive thinking route. And also let go of her righteousness. That sounded promising. Cant wait to ask tonight what that means

So did the lawyer not tell her what she wanted to hear?

I think you've got a good shot at turning this around if you thank her for telling you that (positive thinking, righteousness, etc.) and tell her that you want to make this marriage work and will be there to help her through it. But that all this talk about leaving you and the kids and turning the kid's world and family upside down [emphasis on her leaving both you AND the children] has to stop. I'd speak as though not divorcing and keeping the marriage and family together was the only logical conclusion...kind of like the world is round and that's the way it is. Make sense? Once you get that concession, you can then address the "other" things like the romance novel, etc. at a later date.

You could end the discussion by saying that y'all don't have to go into a ton of details and make a lot of decisions right now, but if divorce is off the table then you can hash out the details with the MC in a day or so.

No reason to overwhelm her with a bazillion plans and lists of what to do and what not to do IF she's agreeing to quit talking about divorce and agreeing to recover this marriage.

Go slow with it, because she's liable to have a mental crash shortly afterward and you'll need to be there to support her.

But, if the talk turns into a bunch of babble and you're back where you started, then I think it's time for an honest talk with her once you get back home (not over the phone!).

Stretch: W, you've been in and out of this marriage for a while now and are now talking to lawyers. You need to decide, right now, if you're going to stay with me and the kids or leave. What's it going to be?

[Emphasis again on her leaving both you AND the children]

W: Umm, I don't know, I'm so confused! The Chinese are making crappy toys with lead paint and it bothers me!

Stretch: Then you need to leave the house and file for a divorce if you don't want to be here. Me and the kids will be just fine. I've talked to your Dad, he said you can go stay over there for a while.

Then walk out of the room, go play with the kids and wait for her to either leave the house (which she likely will) or come into the room where you guys are.

Last night's date was really fun. Just fun and easy. We can talk about the "righteousness" word she used about herself today.

I believe a third party should tell her:
1- You will regret not trying everything... not giving it 110%
2- Your children will resent mommy for about 30 years (or longer) for choosing the divorce
3- It's really gonna suck. You can't keep the house. You will get your children 50pct of the time

Can I just conjure up such a third party person?

We should do some heavy lifting conversation work today and tomorrow.

30 years? I'm 52 my mom died over Christmas. And yes I still resent her for cheating on and divorcing my father. That makes 47 years. So it may be a little longer.

On the other hand she could choose recovery.

I cannot make her love me. I try to hard. But a deeper Love becomes a choice after the first phase of puppy dog magic. I don't think my wife understands that deep love and she is seeking external little attention thrills to make her happy.

But yeah, the kids will resent her for a looooong time. I want to help her avoid that.

Can I just conjure up such a third party person?

...to demonstrate to someone the resulting tragedy
and emptiness of the life-course they seem to prefer?

Let's go with Charles Dickens' creature:



Hang tough, Stretch! (The clip I posted on
WPG's thread applies to you just as well!)

Anyone from her family would do. Her dad offered to help, right?

And you should ask her those questions (if she is ok with seeing her kids 50% of the time, etc.) during a MC session. I'd suggest having them written down so you can read them to her. Using a tone of calm incredulity would probably be in order.

Feeling pretty even keel. We're just trying to have a calm, loving marriage and not constantly be "working."

Its precarious to me. Its not acceptable inthe long term. It means I am waiting for her to "choose" recovery.

But our dates are great. WE are loving and caring. I am really worried about her getting healthy, getting fit, being effective.

Soon she'll see her doctor to get a new AD med.

In MC she just got overwhelmed and cried and cried about her feelings of failure. "I don't have a career. My book is fatally flawed. I can't do anything right."

Our MC seems to understand her and get more into her real problems than her personal therapist or her friends and family. I want to stick with this guy and see how it goes. Might be too challenging for her. I am in for a long life of trying to help her with depression. And that's what I vowed to do.

I recognize that its easier to go b*tch to family or friends or a quacky personal therpaist... give them a snow job and stories about your terrible hubby. Meanwhile, she can't figure out what she wants, or how to be happy and how to feel good with healthy choices.

I am starting to get the patterns and behaviors because I am starting to get to know and understand my wife after all these years. My hope is that I discover a person that is acceptable for me to stay married to for the rest of my life. This defensive behavior, and distraction and justification for bad decisions is just so hard to live with.

Let's see where this goes.

Take a breath. Love my children. Exercise and eat right. Stay healthy and strong. Practice being the kind of man I want to be and let her see that man.