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Hi everyone,

This is my first post, so bear with me, it has been a rough month smile. I am seeking guidance on next steps in my situation.

Summary:
Wife seems to have began EA in early spring. I dismissed lots of signs, e.g. she started seeing psychologist for depression and to explore issues, told psycholgist she was even suicidal, spent lots of time on computer all the time at night and during day (stay-at-home mom), grew distant, etc. She visited her parents in August, spent the month brooding and then she and this OM met for one night, after in her words receiving a sign from God and her dead father. She then returned home and dropped the bomb, e.g. he is my soulmate, I have never loved you, lots of metaphysical stuff, etc. I reacted as you might think, crying, begging, shocked. This went on for about 3 days until I buckled down and began to focus on different approaches and stopped the begging, did some thinking and tried to address the issues to make myself a better husband so she would reconsider (spending time with kids, a few 180s, etc.). She said she wants to move to this other city (did not admit OM at first, this came later, as I will explain below), but I resisted and tried to get her to consider closer options including staying in our current place (rented). We spent about 2 weeks in sort of a holding pattern with her pushing to leave, me resisting, me on and off traveling for work, kids sick (which is probably the only reason she did not leave). The on Sept 30 the bizarreness got more bizarre, so bear with me.

My wife called me at work that day and begged me to come home to talk. I of course rushed home, with a feeling of dread mixed with hope, and determined to have an as if attitude regardless. Well, I can honestly say I did not expect what happened. My wife sat me down and very directly told me she had to tell me something important, and that even though our marriage is over she wants my forgiveness and wants me to understand the big picture for closure. She had been in contact on Skype and e-mail the last few months with an old boyfriend from college whom I actually have met a couple of times about 15 years ago. They had not been in contact for years until earlier this year and an emotional affair seems to have developed. This culminated in apparently one night physically together during her August trip and then her decision that this relationship with this man was meant to be, and this she had to end our marriage to stop living a lie in her words. He is(was) on his second marriage, each marriage with one child, and he was not going to leave his wife and 2 year old, but my wife wanted to go live in the city where he lives and apparently they would continue their affair but now more physically.

But this did not stop there. It got more bizarre. The guy was in the hospital from about one week after the bomb drop until the end of the month for an appendectomy. My wife had been hesitating to go and see him but did not because the kids have been sick and I was traveling. Well, he died in the hospital on Sept 30. My wife acted devastated and I have ever seen her so crazy and depressed. I did my best to validate and comfort her, did not judge her and told her I have already forgiven her. She talked for about 1.5 hours, told me all this, including the metaphsical stuff about eternal connections, etc. with me listening about 95% of the time. We then went to have lunch together, held hands a little (she reached for mine for comfort, and would then quickly pull away after a few moments). She cried during lunch, we then went walking, and she went into a cathedral to pray by herself before we went home. It is hard to believe that was only about one week ago, as it feels like I am in a hundred year of solitude since then. She is calming down day by day, we do have some good family moments, but the yo-yo goes up and down of course, with one day nice, the next day she is attacking me, pushing to leave and take our kids to this other city, etc.

Now she says she is still determined to move to this other city where this guy lived and she has lots of old friends, but she sometimes has begun to waiver and consider living in our current city but in seperate apartments. I know these people also, her old friends, but only through my wife and only casually. These old friends all know about this already, and I guess this is her support system for this (together with her psychologist it seems). My wife has even called his two wives to express sadness and she expressed the idea that she is connected to both of his biological children spiritually. My wife has always been somewhat spiritual, but she was speaking a lot of craziness about how maybe they will reunite in the next life, they were meant to be together, she was connected to the universe, this was Gods plan, she felt a cold moment at his passing, etc. and she wants now her own home and to get away from the city where we now live. She reiterated that she cannot live with me, she no longer loves me, cannot live with me as it makes her crazy, and that her decision is unchanged regardless. She again talked about death (she has done this death talk before if you recall) and how she had to live her life now, and that does not include me. She asked me to buy her a small apartment for her and the kids in this city. I did not agree or disagree.

We then talked again about our 2 kids, and I pushed other options, including a separate apartment for her here, etc. She did not waiver, but the question is still open, as I have not backed down. She has now told her mother nothing about this affair or any of it and instead planned to tell her mother only once she had moved to the other city and she was with this guy. I also told her as her friend (and she said last week she wants us to be friends and trusts me with money matters, etc.) that she does not need to be making such life-altering decisions right now and she is clouded with grief. Of course she said she has no grief and accepted his death already, it was meant by God, she is seeing things clearly, etc.

So since then, last week she admitted she did used to love me, just not anymore. She refuses to change her mind that the marriage is over and in her words "wants to move on with her life." She has read a book called Radical Forgiveness and I saw some worksheets where now she is working on forgiving me last week for all the ways I have let her down (mainly not being involved enough in child-care, being focused too much on career, neglect, not being there for her in some key moments, etc.). I think she is right on these things up to a point and I have really been focused all this last month on being a better dad to my two wonderful kids to prove I can change.

I am at a bit of a loss about next steps. I see that she now reminds me of my brother a bit in her actions and with this drama (he has a 10 year drug addition demon he battles), in that she is like an addict withdrawing from this affair. My hope is that she will calm down, becme rational and reconsider our situation, but for now she is not willing to try (her words). She did ask me the day after the death if theoretically we could continue and if I had forgiven her. I said yes on both counts, but then she went crazy again and has continued saying we are done. Reasoning does not work it seems.

Anyway, advice and guidance would be appreciated. On one hand, she has had to quit the affair cold turkey. On the other hand, it was not her desire to do this obviously. I do not want to have false hope since the OM is gone, but I also do not want to have false despair.

Blackhawk


Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
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D-Day 5 Sept 2011
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Hi and welcome, you will get better help in the Surviving An Affair forum. If you click notify and ask one of the mods to move your post across then they should be able to do that for you.
Sorry for what you are going through.


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Hi Rosycheeks,

Thanks for the advice. I see my post has already been moved. And also, thanks for your kind words.

Blackhawk


Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
2 kids
D-Day 5 Sept 2011
EA w OM started Fall 2010, PA w OM Spring 2011, OM died end Sept 2011

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For a starters phone her mother and let her know of the affair even though the OM has passed away her mother best know the truth.

This is the hard part , if your wife is in contact with the OM's widow she is using her grief to further her fantasy . If either ex wife does not know of the affair , tell them in the gentlest of ways and give them the full update you gave us.

Your wife is still in the fog of the affair and as the OM is now dead she is using this to further her emotional link to a fantasy .

Are your children older than four or five if so sit with them and tell them the truth of her affair and why she is trying to break the marriage.

You need to shatter her illusion and people around her must see her attempts to destroy the marriage for what it is , she is still deeply in the fog.

Don't agree to her moving out , don't subsidise her apartment , make it clear if she moves the children stay with you .


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+ 1 with Xau

I wouldn't wish death upon anyone but that is at least two or three times where I have seen a POSOM die......


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You are quite right that she is going through something like a drug addiction withdrawal. If there's a way to keep her close for a couple of months longer and you continue to be there for her as well as keeping your good changes, she will eventually be able to get her bearings. It sounds like you are doing the right things if she hasn't actually left yet. I noticed that you stated that you had to travel with your business. Dr. Harley states that even one night apart is detrimental to a marriage, and I think any travel without your wife, especially at this time, would be very counterproductive to winning her back.
It sounds like you are doing the right things: hang in there! It seems you are aware of some of her important needs and are working on meeting them. I think the estimated time for this phase is about 3 months when there is no contact. Any visit to the city or interaction with people that knew him would be a form of contact for her. She may not realize it, but these people aren't support for her, but rather reminders that drag out her withdrawal phase. (I wouldn't tell her this, just know it for yourself: logic will not persuade her right now).
I just now saw where she asked for you to get her an apartment for her and your children. If possible, don't let this happen, but if she insists that she has to move, the children should stay in the marital home with you.


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"She did ask me the day after the death if theoretically we could continue and if I had forgiven her. I said yes on both counts, but then she went crazy again and has continued saying we are done. Reasoning does not work it seems."

She was just checking to see if you still loved her. And can now continue to look at you as her back up plan or second choice. As you said reasoning doesn't work. The only thing that works is self respect. You see, you don't require much from her. Such as fidelity or accountability. I wish I could explain just how unattractive a man who will not stand up for himself is to a woman, especially a wife. Instead of being the man and protecting your marriage (even from your wife). Oh and be sure to remove or protect her from any consequence of her actions. Buy her that apartment. Don't make her work. coddle her fantasy. Don't have any plan to repair your marriage. Just let her FEEL her way through this. I am sure her feelings won't steer you wrong.

Adultery is crime and inaction is its accomplice.

Here is an idea. Tell her if she leaves its her choice. But its your choice as to how you spend your money. First off you want an apartment? Get a job. Next, regarding you taking the kids anywhere....yeah,not gonna happen, I have contacted a lawyer to get a court order that you can't leave the state with the kids. You need to find yourself? I have gotta great place to look, the real world. Yeah with all its bills and stresses. You think you can do it better without the support of a husband? Think single motherhood is something you want to experience? Fine. But it WILL BE without the support of my finances or emotional support. I'm spending those assets on my kids and myself. Man at least then she knows you have some self respect. And surprise! That's attractive to a woman.


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Welcome, Blackhawk, sorry your circumstances have led you here.

Question: Have you confirmed that this guy is actually dead? I'm not saying he's not, but...verify.

Have you personally talked to his other wives?

Does your WW understand that, if she pursues this separation, she will not be taking the children out of their home, and that she can petition for visitation with the court? I mean, she doesn't have the hare-brained idea that she's going to take your children to another city and away from their father, does she? I would disabuse her of that notion immediately. I would suggest you let her know that you will be filing legal separation to protect yourself.

And that business of buying her an apartment for her and the kids? rotflmao Um. No. First of all, she's not taking the kids with her. Second, you're not going to finance her single lifestyle.

Your WW is living heavy in the fog, Blackhawk. She needs a dose of reality. I suspect a steady dose of that will kick the legs out from under this new-age, hearts&flowers, metaphysical garbage she's laboring under right now.


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Originally Posted By: Blackhawk

Anyway, advice and guidance would be appreciated. On one hand, she has had to quit the affair cold turkey. On the other hand, it was not her desire to do this obviously. I do not want to have false hope since the OM is gone, but I also do not want to have false despair.



Hi Blackhawk, welcome to Marriage Builders.

Your wife is in what we call the "fog" around here. She is high on the addiction of a sleazy affair. Psychologically, it is very much like being high on alcohol or narcotics. Her rantings are about as relevant and meaningful as the babblings of a falling down drunk. So your first mission is to stop listening to the rantings of falling down drunk and start leading your family out of crazyville.

Unfortunately, your wife is driving the car [while drunk] with your whole family is in the car. If you don't take back the wheel your car is going to crash with your family in it. You need to take back the wheel, my friend. Start standing up for your family and protecting your kids from this crazyness.

The way to do that is to inject some reality here. She is lost in la-la land because she doesn't have anyone telling her how insane her choices are. She needs you to help wake her up.

I would start off by exposing her affair to her mother, friends, and family members. Tell them about her kooky plans and ask them ALL to speak to her and use their influence to persuade her to stop this nonsense and start working on your marriage. Evryone should know about her affair, especially any kids over the age of 4.

It is real important that you bring this out in order to kill her affair fog because if you don't she will be looking for "soul mate" #2 soon enough. She needs to hear from others how disgusting it is to have an affair.

Then set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you are not willing to settle for less and wont stay in a loveless marriage. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships

4. complete honesty about her affair<s> passing a polygraph

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: Blackhawk
. She is calming down day by day, we do have some good family moments, but the yo-yo goes up and down of course, with one day nice, the next day she is attacking me, pushing to leave and take our kids to this other city, etc.


You need to burst this bubble real quick. Paint her a very ugly picture of how this is going to play out if she wants to leave. Let her know that you won't leave, but if she does she will not take the kids. Tell her you will file for divorce on grounds of adultery and will file for primary custody of the children and possession of the house. You will bring in evidence of her adultery into the divorce case so that it is on record. Tell her you will not be her "friend" and that it will be an ugly, ugly divorce where you will fight to pay her nothing.

There is a very important reason you need to tell her this. She imagines that you will roll over and help her acheive her fantasy. You need to burst that fantasy.

Your wife apparently lives on fantasy and surrounds herself with kooks who bolster this nonsense. She needs you to lead her out of this fog.

This is especially important for your kids. I am horrified that your kids have been led into this fantasy life. Has she been telling them stories about her "soul mate?" I shudder at the thought of what she has taught them. This is why I say if they are over 4 you need to be talking to them and giving them some guidance.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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p.s. forgiveness is very inappropriate unless she earns it. She has not earned it.

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.

In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

A better solution is to give her an opportunity to earn it. By doing so, you give your marriage a CHANCE to recover. But handing out unwarranted forgiveness prevents that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thanks Xau for your quick reply. It is nice to be able to talk to some people that understand what this is all about!

About the widows, this happened the day after the death and not since. From what I heard, my wife was not welcome at the funeral regardless.

The mother thing is something I have threatend her with but have not yet done. I have been saving it in my back pocket.

I am not going to move out and do not plan to pay for her apartment. You are so right on those things of course, although it has taken me a couple of weeks to get to that place of thinking myself. On the children, we are in a country where parental rights almost always favor the mother (my wife is a US citizen and a citizen of this country, while I am only a US citizen, so this somewhat limits my legal options). What I have been pushing is minimum I want 50/50, and if she wants to go to this city, then I take the kids 100% and I am happy to do this since they have schoold, etc. here where we live now. She of course does not like these options, which is one reason we are now in a holding pattern. My income is paid in the US, and assets are hard to get to without her pursuing a US divorce which she is not thinking about. This means that I have a good shot at avoiding court ordered alimony if it comes to that.


Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
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EA w OM started Fall 2010, PA w OM Spring 2011, OM died end Sept 2011

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Thanks finah.


Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
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Originally Posted By: Blackhawk
On the children, we are in a country where parental rights almost always favor the mother (my wife is a US citizen and a citizen of this country, while I am only a US citizen, so this somewhat limits my legal options).


BH, it is the same in the US, and many men DO get primary custody by introducing the instability of the wayward wife to the court. If she thinks you will just hand over 50/50, she will be emboldened to go forward. I would fight for primary and let her know you aren't going to settle for 50/50, but will go for 80/20 with no overnights and with supervised visitations only. That will wake her up!

And how does she plan on supporting herself and the children? Does she have a good job? I would strongly advise that you move your money to safe place and don't allow her to touch it without a court order.

Does the widow of the OM know that your wife is the OW?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: Blackhawk

Bomb dropped 5 Sept, still living under one roof but seperated, wife wants to live seperately.


Just wanted to point out that living in the same house is not "separated." That is living together.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thanks LifetimeLearner for your feedback. I really appreciate it. The look in her eyes a few times when she said these crazy things to me ("you are nothing but a sperm donor!, you can't handle the kids by yourself!") was the same look in my brother's eyes when he was deep in his addictions. I had such a moment of clarity when she said those things above, it was like a lightbulb went off in my head with how similar her actions were to an addict justifying their addiction.

My strategy this far has been mostly from Divorce Busters, and I only stumbled on this website from someone that posts over there (I have not posted there). Frankly, I see alot of wisdom here and more of a tough love approach. My goal is to keep her living in our home and give her time to come out of the fog. It has been a battle as I am sure you know. The death of the OM I hope has given me a chance to turn the momentum more my way. I will not subsidize her apartment, but the kids can be an issue because of local laws (we live in a country where dovorce laws favor the mother). Anyway, i am shooting for 50% as a minimum and am willing to take them 100%, but she does not like that.


Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
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D-Day 5 Sept 2011
EA w OM started Fall 2010, PA w OM Spring 2011, OM died end Sept 2011

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If your wife is having supernatural experiences with "dead people" it is critical that you, yourself know exactly what the Bible has to say about death.

I can 100% guarantee you that God would put no blessing on what she did, and would never send her a "sign" that it was ok. That only leaves one source.

And, if she is already seeing apparitions or supernatural signs, I worry that someone claiming to be OM may appear to her. (These things do happen far too often. Many of my relatives, and even AJ have been approached, and sometimes even attacked, by supernatural forces that were not from God.)

Follow every bit of the excellent advice you have been given, and add to that a spiritual battle on spiritual terms. Pray for God's protection on your family, and ask that He will help you defeat the enemy.

A few texts to get you started, but please do a full study until you are confident as to the source of any apparitions:

Genesis 2:7
Ecclesiastes 12:7
(Spirit in this verse is ruach, which means "wind", or "breath".)
James 2:26
(Spirit in this verse is pneuma, or "breath".)
Ezekiel 18:20 - Souls die.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
John 11:11-14
Acts 2:34
Job 14:12-15
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
(Those who consult with familiar spirits or try to communicate with the dead are an abomination. This is something your WW needs to stay away from.)
That's just a start. There is a bunch more information you will learn in your own study.

Again, follow all the fantastic advice you have received. That will be your best chance of getting your M back on track. Do not neglect the spiritual dimension, which is at a level I haven't seen before. And spiritual battles are fought spiritually.

Our family will pray for your family.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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ouchthathurt, thanks for your candor, I realize you want me to man-up and you are right. I appreciate you pointing out that truth about the theoretical love comment. I am not going to support her on any move and will do nothing to accelerate or assist in this process. She has begun working part-time, but frankly her salary sucks and always will because of her career choice. It will be hard for her to make it by herself, especially if I refuse to help her. There are some local nuances (we are not in the US) that may be able to give me the ability to pay no alimony in this country (my salary is US-based). I do appreciate the bucket of cold water!


Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
2 kids
D-Day 5 Sept 2011
EA w OM started Fall 2010, PA w OM Spring 2011, OM died end Sept 2011

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Originally Posted By: Blackhawk


The mother thing is something I have threatend her with but have not yet done. I have been saving it in my back pocket.


It is time to play that card if you are serious about saving your marriage. You can't afford to be complacent, Sir. Complacence will not save your family. Call her mother and other family and friends and tell them what she is doing. Don't make threats. Just do it. Ask them all to speak to her.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Hi maritalbliss and thanks for the warm welcome. I wish unfortunately that we would never have the chance to interact here, but God has dealt this hand and it must be played, so here I am! About the OM's death, I am rather certain about this.I do not know the wives, but I did hear the phone call when the first wife informed my wife.

On the kids, that is a conundrum since in the country where we live, she can get custody as the mother. Still, we have been around and around on this with me saying minimum I want 50% and that I would take 100% of course. She seems more and more open to living in our current city and we share them. I think she is starting to realize that the alimony thing is 100% under my control as I am paid in the US, not here, so local courts can give her nothing.

On the apartment, I am not going to do it, but I have sort of let it ride without giving a yes/no answer, and of course I do not plan to do this. You are so right.


Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
2 kids
D-Day 5 Sept 2011
EA w OM started Fall 2010, PA w OM Spring 2011, OM died end Sept 2011

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