Great - dueling dictionaries!



When my bride asks why I find this site so......intriguing.....I think of threads like this.

(And at least the debate is over the word "hypocrisy" and not the meaning of "is"!)

I guess my point was that while it is harder in some instances, it can be overcome (if one was willing to invest the time). Dr. Harley doesn't say it's impossible, just more difficult. Maybe the question is "is this person worth the effort?"

;-)

CV

Here is what Harley says:

The way I have overcome that resentment is to SEPARATE myself for life from the source. And that is what many betrayed spouses should do when they find they cannot overcome that resentment and maintain contact.

I guess my point was that while it is harder in some instances, it can be overcome (if one was willing to invest the time). Dr. Harley doesn't say it's impossible, just more difficult. Maybe the question is "is this person worth the effort?"

;-)

CV [/quote]


Here is what Harley says:

The way I have overcome that resentment is to SEPARATE myself for life from the source. And that is what many betrayed spouses should do when they find they cannot overcome that resentment and maintain contact. [/quote]

I agree that is one way to do it.

I feel bad for the T/J on mrs. Vanilla's thread. Hoping they got to the bottom of the mystery...

cv

It's not the same scenario, but I handle my resentment toward my wayward mother in much the same way. I remember about three years after her divorce I suddenly realized I didn't think about her all the time and that I finally felt better! I had isolated myself from her, and it paid off.

�I feel bad for the T/J on Mrs. Vanilla's thread. Hoping they got to the bottom of the mystery...�

It�s not intended as a thread jack. I was trying to go somewhere with this. If I could only remember where�

I have an itch that feels like it might be empathy for V�s BH, whoever he is. He appears to be where I used to be. Sitting on the fence for so long he�s been whitewashed and ivy has grown up around him.

I searched back through this thread again during lunch and I do not see where V�s BH was at all abusive before V�s adultery. If anything he is the one who had tons of unmet ENs and should have been the one, according to basic MB theory, to have had an affair, or affairs. So whatever he is doing or appears to be doing now is not at all in his basic character.

However, there are also some confusing and contradictory things in this thread. Like religious issues (death for adultery) mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I am a practicing Catholic and even though I could get a civil divorce I would not be able to remarry again in the church. So why bother. But it reads as if V�s BH is feeling even more constrained. So, instead of just condemning him for not knowing what to do, or doing things all wrong, perhaps someone should just come out and ask him what he thinks his options are within his ethical framework.

Perhaps his religious upbringing says he should leave for good but deep down he does not really want to (e.g. the children, basic compassion, finances, maybe even sill love, desire to do the right thing even if he does not know for sure what that is, fear of the unknown, depression�) These things place some people, like me, between a rock and a tender hard place indeed.

I do not recall if Dr H in any of his writings has addressed certain highly conservative religious constraints in dealing with adultery. Some BHs may be caught in a sticky web of conflicting needs and requirements and only appear to be fence sitting. Call it thrashing.

Why is he stuck? What would he do if he had more freedom of action and we keep liberal Protestant ethos out of it?

Anyway, if he could talk�

It could be its own thread � why some BS will not, or feel they cannot, D and leave even though they would if they could. Many mainline Protestants may not understand such a situation.

I think it needs to be remembered that it doesn't take actual abuse from one spouse to cause another one to commit adultery.

Here's the main thing, though: this is not Mr. V's thread. It's Mrs. V's. We don't have the luxury of talking to Mr. V to get his thoughts on the A. (I thought we did on another thread...evidently not.)

It's not productive or respectful to Mrs. V. to speculate about her H's thoughts/feelings, etc. on her thread.
He apparently has decided not to.

Sorry, Mrs. V - I promised myself I'd stay off your thread until you got back, and here I am. Hope you're back soon!

That's ignoble.

It would help V, no matter what gets him to talk or where he does the talking.

He certainly appears to read here...

Nope. It's appropriate. We are indulging in conjecture on a poster's thread about her husband and his actions or thoughts, when neither of them are here to defend or refute anything. THAT'S disrespectful and assumptive and accomplishes nothing positive. Whether or not he 'appears' to read here is immaterial and speculative at best.

Mr. V is certainly aware of this website and should have zero compunction about posting. When he posts here on his own thread we should certainly respond with the best Marriage Building advice we can offer. Without his participation we are a one-sided debate group, using a poster's thread without her permission. And THAT'S wrong.

Sheesh

"I think it needs to be remembered that it doesn't take actual abuse from one spouse to cause another one to commit adultery."

So someone can make someone commit adultery, huh. That's about as wrong a thing as I have ever read � very contrary to MB too. And contrary to what V herself has posted.

You appear to have a dog in this fight. I don�t.

Except for V's posts (and even some of hers), every post referring to her BH on this thread, and some of them outright condemn him, are conjecture. I was trying to draw him out so the conjecture can end.

Never mind.

I was responding to your post, where you indicated that Mr. V did not appear to be abusive. You appeared to be looking for cause/effect signs of abuse on Mr. V's part. What was your point?

This statement stops woefully short of understanding the concepts of Marriage Builders. Many spouses are in unhappy marriages where their needs are not being met, and they don't have affairs. Anecdotal evidence in the form of the betrayed spouses on this site alone makes that abundantly clear. I also think it is disingenuous for you to speculate that Mr. V had 'tons' of unmet needs. We can't know that without his honest participation.

Sorry, I don't believe in dog fighting. I DO have a strong belief in making sure the facts are correct in any given case. Especially when the posters aren't here to speak for themselves.

I'll always mind.

Mrs V, I address this to you, not your chorus�

There are a number of things in your posts that to me are loose ends. Incomplete information. Since the basic reason to post on MB is to get help restoring your marriage (though many just want commiseration, especially WS) I assume these omissions are unintentional or general knowledge I don't have.

If what you write in your initial posts here is true, then I see a parallel in your BH with what was my situation for a long, long time. You have not only handed with both hands your BH a massive marital crisis, you have tossed him body and soul into a crisis of faith.

Further if as you imply in your first posts his religion (and I assume yours) tells him you are now spiritually dead to him he is also mourning you. A hat trick of agony and loss. That explains a lot. It explains the fence and the possibly multiple IDs IMO.

Let me speak plainly even though I may be going out on a limb. This is not your run-of-the-mill MB problem. Your BH first needs to come to terms with his fundamental beliefs. He must either change his religion or follow it. The fence will only become more and more uncomfortable for both of you.

I had to do the same. And it took me a long time. Ages. If God�s own holy sacrament could be so callously thrown aside, where was God? Divorce was not a religious option, so what was I to do? Leave the church? Deny God? I believe it was a divine intervention that brought me back from the brink of the abyss and gave me a solution I could live with.

Your BH will not find much empathy or understanding for his spiritual predicament among the average Protestant. He needs to talk to someone who knows his particular inner struggle. And he needs to take this to his God.

Wishing your BH the best.

I am leaving your thread now.

eta; Mel, my dog is cuter than your dog.

Ms_Vanilla,

Good afternoon. How are things going? I was reading the thread on extraordinary precautions...as my idea of EPs were sorely lacking (naturally). I only had three...if that gives you some clue. I saw your post on that thread and I saw this EP: "No talking to men unless it is about something necessary and unavoidable." ...just helped me see how far away I am from "extraordinary" precautions with my measly 3. So it took me time to adjust from no contact to "no contact for life", from honesty to "radical honesty". LOL ...precautions to "extraordinary precautions", here we go. At least, I am moving in the right direction.

I hope things are going better for you and your BH.

I have not posted for some time out of respect for my marriage and DH, and although DH has since said I can do whatever I want in regards to posting, I have refrained. However, I wanted to get this off of my chest. I know there is no easy answer. The solution seems patently, painfully obvious at this point. And yet I will do nothing because I am foolishly, pathetically, abhorrently optimistic and don't want to do anything to rock the (floundering) boat.

We are unexpectedly pregnant. At the time of my affair, one of the principle reasons DH stayed was for the kids, (although as time has gone on, that has become the only reason he stayed). His plan has been to leave once the kids are older. Accordingly, DH refuses to have any more children. I have mixed feelings - while the timing is not great, another child is a blessing. DH issued an ultimatum: if I have this child, he is leaving. He states there is no problem, and that this "is simple" and "easy" - just get an abortion. Religious grounds are clear-cut (either permissible or not, depending on which scholars you follow). I have enough sin for which to atone, and I do not need to add further sin by having an abortion. This is a very real concern of mine, yet DH mocks and disparages my attempts to address this. (Understandably so. No matter what my religious convictions are now, they will never compare to my obvious lack of them during the affair.)

The larger problem is we have never recovered from my infidelity. I feel DH is stuck back in 2008 - that any changes since then don't exist for him. DH harbors a lot of resentment - towards me, my family, other people in his life. He states that everyone can walk all over him and treat him horribly, but he's still expected to be nice to everyone. I don't know what to say to that, because that's exactly what I did (walk all over him and treat him horribly), and that's exactly what I'm asking him to do now (be nice in return).

I realize our lack of UA and decreased meeting of intimate ENs impacts this. I feel we are at a point where none of that matters: DH will leave no matter what, any hopes I have of a restored marriage and intact family will be dashed, and I will be left with nothing that matters...and an abortion. He "jokes" about me being in California (= far away) doing whatever I want while he lives his life elsewhere - and it hurts, because I know he would be happier that way.

And I'm DJ'ing him in my mind on top of all that: I feel that if he could change his outlook, if we could really commit to this relationship and recovering it, I think it would be so much happier and healthier. However, that is a DJ, me telling him what to think and assuming I know what makes him happy - especially since I am the FWS. Regardless, I think the time is long past for that - the iron has long since cooled. And it is certainly not my place to say something like that to him.

Part of me feels like me having an abortion is Just Compensation, as would be leaving and letting him live his life in peace. I just don't want those situations to be the case. Unfortunately, I think my actions in 2008 dictated the current circumstances, and there is painfully little I can do about it.

Vplanifolia, I am very sorry to hear this but I am not surprised you are back with such a problem. I am convinced that you are under spiritual assault by a man who does not care for you and has used your affair to punish you for years. He is highly manipulative and does not hesitate to use your affair against you for secondary gain.

I will never forget when he signed up here and posted to you under an alias, defending his abuse. And then had to nerve to deny it was him when the moderator pointed out the poster was posting from your house!

Dr Harley talks about the use of such manipulation in his article about resentment:

here

I agree that your husband will leave no matter what and if I were you, I would get a divorce. That would the best for you all. Killing your unborn child and sacrificing any semblance of decency, will not compensate your husband. It will hurt your marriage in enormous ways if you agree to sacrifice your principles.

But this cannot be blamed on your husband anymore. You are a GROWN WOMAN who chooses not to stand up for herself. You are no longer a victim, but a volunteer. It is up to you to stop enabling your husband's abuse, my dear friend.

No, it is not a "DJ." It is the truth. And your husband gets away with manipulating you when you choose to employ such ridiculous notions. You are plenty old enough to know when you are being bamboozled.

It certainly IS your place to tell your husband what it will take to recover your marriage. YOU ARE PART OF THIS MARRIAGE, AREN'T YOU!?

What a horrendous demand for him to make! As with Mel, I distinctly recall the "Nope, not me" postings of this cur.

There comes a point, and I believe you are well past it, when heinous behavior and antisocial actions can no longer be written off as "Well, it's because you had an affair!" (For additional support for this position, you only need read WPG's thread.) He was there and participating in the SF activities of which this pregnancy is the result. He does NOT get free use of the "Do this or else!" card, stretched waaaaay beyond the natural boundaries of a BS managing recovery.

I would disagree slightly with Mel, however. I'd calmly explain that within the constraints of an MB-consistent union, taking an action like terminating this pregnancy would be the most vital of POJA-controlled decisions. And since you cannot enthusiastically agree, the abortion will not be pursued. Put the onus back on him to defend the indefensible.

The POJA was not intended for immoral, evil, or destructive behavior. And even if they both agreed to kill their child, that is not something anyone should endorse or encourage.

...immoral, evil, or destructive behavior.

You and I seem to be in the tiny minority in the country on this topic, Tex. I chose NOT to assume everybody is as attuned to what we can see as elemental morality here when MB principles would serve equally well - pragmatism over dogma, so to speak.

If V's opinion of abortion's defining characteristics were as steadfast as yours and mine, she never would have even posted that note.

So, V - if your concept of aborting a child under any/all conditions puts it in the "murder of innocents" realm, there is no further debate.

If your opinion is less rigid, then POJA is your position.