Stretch, it's heartbreaking to read your story, but heartwarming to hear your steadfastness to see it through. As opposed to those BHs who have discovered that their WWs WON'T supply affection and returned ENs, I detect you're discovering that yours CAN'T consistently do so.

I still think its won't, but crippled by the can't, of modern phycology.

But you are making headway at any rate, and don't mind me, I can't even spell phycology right, so that would leave me out of that intellectual circle anyways.

In the long run my hopes are for the marraige to take precident, and the individual to take a back seat to that, having rhe marriage relationship, be treated as a whole individual life of its own.

That is the point is it not? That the two become one flesh?

Keep at it stretch

I'm with you on that. They kind of go hand-in-hand, are self-fulfilling, solve one and you solve both, something like that.

I'll tell you what--what I wrote above made sense to me when I typed it but not so much now that I'm rereading it.


I'll help you out, psychology.

I'll admit I cheated, though. My browser puts little red squiggle lines under misspelled words.

Have a good week guys.

I think its more of a representation of poor licensing standards and poor standards of practice for "counselors" than a persecution of psychology, psychiatry, psychoanalysis, or mental health.

Most certainly a propagation of "professionals" engaging in "practice" which is based on no evidence, or poor evidence.

Agreed, but it would be wiser to have them all reading the same material and seeking the same goals. I see the three counselors as problems, not solutions, to thier marraige, and with the problems with the incompetancy of many counselors, it will be along hard battle for stability.

But don't let that stop you stretch, as NG says,"Eyes on the prize", and as long as you are in it, you will show her that you are fighting for your marraige. It makes no difference if they can't figure out the answers for the problems that plauge her unconsious mind, as long as you are ready with the solutions when all is hashed over and done.

Think of all the ground you will have covered, and the dead ends you will have exhausted, in the end. You will be an expert in therapy dos and donts, and come out of it with a marriage that lives in the now, instaed of the past.

You will not give up on her and your marriage, and that counts up there above all the theorys of why and when, past and present fear and pain. That is what will remain when all is said and done, your love for her.

Great men, NG, CP, HHH and NW.
And great friends.
Thanks for hanging with me.

I am gonna be great!

Did y'all have a revelation or something?

Whatever the good news, glad to hear it!

No break throughs in the marriage. Just in myself.

Good to hear that you're doing ok. Post back with an update when you get a chance.

Take care, have a good week.

I have realized, and I have stated clearly to you fine folkes here, to my wife, to our counselor, to my therapist, to my family:

"Excellence awaits down either path. I want a passionate and exciting marriage, I'm a great catch, I can love deeply and intimately and remain devoted and committed. I am not afraid of either path now -- M or D -- because an excellent life awaits down either."

Lately, I understand more that the "D" path would be "easier". Heck, I even catch myself imagining a new life.

But that's not Building a Marriage. And that is why I am here. I acknowledge that this path (the path of M) is "harder". But I believe the rewards are richer. So, some days I get glimpses of what it could be like.

Its still hard. But I am more aware of my wife now. I pay attention like I did not before. I see the foggy talk coming. I know when she is really depressed and about to zing something on me so I gotta look out for the hurtful words.

MC today was hard work, but to me, it felt really encouraging. To her, its really exhausting breaking down all the conditioning. Our MC said that, "You are well conditioned to your patterns. To think you know what the other was going to say. To grab onto the same old feelings. To not notice the other one was practicing a new way, a newway of talking to their spouse and relating. You ar conditioned to not even notice." ... "Keep practicing!"

She gets tired and down... (because, I submit, its hard work.) However, she also gets exhausted coming out of her personal therapy which I fear is a lot of husband bashing and "Oh you poor thing -- he's so awful... let me hold your hand down the path of divorce."

I just feel... so... clear headed. Able to control my emotions. I want to work at light speed... but you can't work faster than the other one. I need an outlet for all these thoughts, revelations and insights about us, about me and (a lot of the time) about my wife. So I am going to journal them. I am reading a lot about depression and thought patterns. Its too much to drown my wife with. But I am learning time and patience.

The foggy revisionist tales still hurt. But with a clearer head and less emotion now I can remain calm and deal with that sort of crap one issue at a time.

What she did was wrong.
It was because of her bad boundaries.
I did not make her do it.
Her accomplices were wrong too.
They were in control of their own choices.
I have emotional needs.
Now I know what they are and I like them to be fulfilled.
I know what her emotional needs are and I try to fill them every day.
Also, I try to eliminate love busters every day.
My wife's depression has a terrible grip on her. I recognize it. And the patterns are recognizable.
My empathy is growing -- I understand her childhood / family and where some of these things came from.
Now they make sense -- so how to get on with it?
I am committed and devoted to my wife / and our children.
I want her to see me as that support -- that strong/quiet/confident man who will always be with her.
But I also want her to see herself as strong/confident/effective/capable. And that's really hard right now.
It takes a ton of emotional energy to revise history / to make crazy justifications for bad behavior / to displace all her bad feelings about herself onto me. And she is exhausted.
I am emotionally stable. I am doing my own work. I am a great Dad and a great man.
I have a lot to give my children and to give her. So I do. I just do. Its empty and rejecting sometimes. But I just choose to be the man I am striving to be.

Well, the Stretch of October certainly has insights into his situation (both individually and vis-a-vis his spouse) that the Stretch of January could not have imagined. While all of this sounds grand, I can detect that you also can see that the disparity in the levels of knowledge in these areas between you and FWW can be a source of discontent. If you recognize that her "speed" is legitimately less than yours, you should be okay.

Great note to read early in the AM.....

Indeed. It is true.

By taking my foot off the gas, I believe that I have seen her make more progress.

Last night and this morning she initiated affection. Meaning, just a thoughtful scratch of my head before closing our eyes, and a sought out embrace while getting our coffee.

I believe I should tell you and affirm, that I am not being a doormat. Taking my foot off the gas does not mean sitting back and listening to foggy BS! I refuse to put up with that. She is now required to change a lot of foggy revisionism. I have control over my emotions, and the ability to leave or stay in this marriage.

What does this mean?

I'm going to have to go back and read your thread. The last time I looked, you weren't really going to do anything to end your WW's actions. Has anything changed?

By taking my foot off the gas, I believe that I have seen her make more progress.

Modern organizational management theory holds that some things cannot be forced to happen; they are best fostered by letting them happen. WSs finding their own best interests and "way home" might be in that category.

Maybe just maybe she'll start to realize shes not as foggy as she'd like everyone to believe. And this huge cake Stretch has been giving her for months and months might just come to an end someday. Maybe realizing Stretch might no longer be a guarunteed option will make her pull her head out of her rear?

Just maybe...?

I am fine with that.
If she can't or won't be happy in this marriage... then we need to move on.

If she can't or won't try to meet my EN's... then we'll move on.

Just knowing that is true, and feeling confident that I know what kind of marriage I want for myslef, for us, for our family... makes me stronger. And more attractive. And more stable.

I know she can be the one. I know we can have the sort of passionate and exciting mariage we both deserve. We just don't have it right now.

But her change is common on her own. Cognitive therapy helps the depressed person see that all the bad things around them aren't happening to them. It's not a pile of external events that cause depression. Everyone has the same bad things happening in their life. On balance, my wife's life is filled with positive and lovely experiences. But she focuses on the negative. And imagines all these things are happening "to her".

The key to depression recovery is understanding that its not the external things that must change. Its not happening "to you." Its all about your own reaction and thought patterns.

She still wants external things to "make her happy." Switching from Zoloft to Wellbutrin in a couple weeks. OK. Fine. Maybe that will help. Might help lose weight too. But she can't put too much onto the pill being the answer.

A better husband. OK she got that. Fun events and things to look forward to. OK, got that too. New medication. Check. Positive talk therapy.. I am not sure. Her therapist may or may not be worth a damn. But our shared MC is damn good. I know that.

She is trying to get herself put together, little by little. I am not taking all the blame. Big part is a change in my actions. I won't sit back like a pathetic doormat. I have stopped crying. If she wants to discuss Divorce then I am ready to discuss that. Seriously. Realistically. I can make that decision.

My deadline was January. Janaury for this in/out... stay/go ... ring/no ring ... thinking about Divorce, talking about it with therapist and friends... all of that to end. I am not in so much pain that i have to call an end to it. I am sad and disappointed we aren't on a fully committed recovery. Will I stand up for a firm decision in January then?

Is your wife aware of your internal deadline?
Just curious.

Were you thinking she should be?

Maybe some kind of prod to get with the program?

Yes. She is. I said last summer that I had six months

Posts written last Aug 18th