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Originally Posted By: LuvsDavid
Ok, which is the whole truth?
a. I should have unfriended her in 2009
b. I should not have added her to my fake facebook account that I just set up this year?

See the difference?

They're both true. But obviously creating a second facebook to message privately is way worse. That is a bigger boundary to be stepping over.

Originally Posted By: itistoughlove
You know what is admirable?

A man, father of four, raising his family honorably, with integrity, and with character.

If you want admiration ... then do something admirable. Hot women admiring you isn't one of them.

Your wife will admire your pants off if you give her O&H. Otherwise she has nothing to admire. Your external source for admiration will continuously be drawn from Porn, Prostitutes, and Adultery.

Amen! THIS is the life I want to lead!!!

Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
ITA. Also consider this. there are two answers you can give to the question when someone asks you something (aside from outright lying, that is) .. The real answer and the right answer.

The real answer is the truth. The right answer may or may not be the truth.

Question example: CV, does God love you?

Right answer: Yes, because the Bible tells me He does.

Real answer? I don't think God loves me because of the life I've lived. I've been through so much that I can never really believe in a loving God.

Technically, answer 1 may be true. But I'd flunk it on a lie detector if the real answer was that I really thought it might be propositionally true, but not practically true.

I think what you might be doing is this sort of thinking. It is a form of equivocating. Of course the right answer is "I never wanted to leave Amy", but the real answer is "I wanted to be closer to OW". Defacto, you wanted OW more. That is the real answer. You didn't want to just stay and live your life with Amy and be happy with the wife of your youth. You wanted someone else's.

make sense?

CV

Yes, I think that you're exactly right. I've lived a life of giving the "right answer" to protect Amy from my flaws or because I was a coward to admit things. I'm still having a problem doing it. Amy and I kind of got to this issue last night in therapy and in our own late night discussion, actually. My biggest problem is giving a "less hurtful version of the truth" which I always told myself was the truth, but it really isn't.

I'm getting there, guys. Thank you for posting.

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Originally Posted By: itistoughlove
You know what is admirable?

A man, father of four, raising his family honorably, with integrity, and with character.

If you want admiration ... then do something admirable.



Don't know the submission process, but I believe this is a Notable Quote.

I just don't think it can be pared down more succinctly than this.

Schlag #2562066 11/08/11 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Schlag
Yes, I think that you're exactly right. I've lived a life of giving the "right answer" to protect Amy from my flaws or because I was a coward to admit things. I'm still having a problem doing it. Amy and I kind of got to this issue last night in therapy and in our own late night discussion, actually. My biggest problem is giving a "less hurtful version of the truth" which I always told myself was the truth, but it really isn't.

I'm getting there, guys. Thank you for posting.


I have a thought or two.... I don't want to hurt or stir anyone unnecessarily, but I want you to be prepared for this...

People will stick with you if they see effort and progress here. It won't be easy for you, but they will. You got a tough tough road ahead Eric. I know. My wife did too. The repercussions last forever and you will always mourn what you lost (or threw away).

BUT, that doesn't have to mean it's the end. Amy may leave you. You may get divorced and never remarried, and a hard as that sounds, it is not the end of the world. What would be the end of the world for you would be to give up the hard hard work of being honest.

The divorce in many ways will make it harder for you to prove yourself to her because you won't be in close contact like you are now. You will have to find creative ways to show her your honesty.

You will have to make your biggest strides in this now while you have the chance to do it before her. Post here for advice. Some may check out on you. It's ok if you are sincerely working, it won't matter in the end (though you will lose some valuable insight). What is important is you fixing you whether or not your marriage works.

My suggestion... THINK before you answer. Take a second and ask yourself a few questions before you answer.

For example...

"did you ever talk about having kids together?"

"No! Well, maybe... she mentioned it once or twice" "No, I never wanted to have kids with her"...

These types of responses are dishonest ones.. they are equivocating the truth. Trying to make it "better" somehow.

The real answer is "yes. We talked about it a few times..."

Then you ask "may I explain this?"

and say "We talked about it, but it was never something I wanted to do", or "I considered it and after thinking on it rejected the idea", or whatever the right answer is. But that initial blurt out KILLS credibility.


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Heh, we had that conversation with the therapist and between us as well. It's good advice. And it's essential for me to not do more damage than I've already done.

Unfortunately, sometimes it means no answer for Amy because if the memory isn't there I have to avoid doing what I've been doing - taking vague and incomplete memories from over 2 years ago and deciding now what they meant after the fact. Because that gets clouded by what I WANT to believe now and isn't necessarily the same thing as what I felt at the time.

Good for getting un-clouded now and into the future, but bad for Amy to figure out what exactly she's healing from.

Schlag #2562123 11/08/11 07:01 PM
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Schlag,

The truth simply "is".

There is not a "better truth", or "an easier truth", or "a truth that makes someone feel better".

The truth stands as an entity unto itself.


What Amy asks for is for you to tell her the truth, as you best recall it. She wants you to tell her lovingly, openly, honestly.

There need not be a brutality about it.

There does not need to be a clouded veil to it either.



A clarity, an honesty, an openness to the delivery is best. What happens then is that the betrayed spouse can hear what happened, and know the truth of the marriage, and make informed decisions about their life.


And just so you know, it isn't unusual for a person to remember some things about events, and once you begin talking about things for more details to be recalled. As you begin to confess the events, the very nature of talking about them may jar your memory as to this thing or the other thing - and as those come to you, it will be important for you to go to Amy and tell her that you have remembered more.

Don't lie or cover them up, or wait for her to ask about them. Tell her simply that you have remembered more. Tell her what has come to mind, and what brought it to your mind. It is HELPFUL when the wayward spouse is open in this way - because it hurts to have to constantly ask, beg, plead for information. So as much as you are able to offer her, and in whatever way she has asked you to, offer the information.


SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
Schlag #2562154 11/08/11 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: Schlag
My biggest problem is giving a "less hurtful version of the truth" which I always told myself was the truth, but it really isn't.



Lets put this in another way;

Amy's biggest problem is getting a "less hurtful version of the truth" which she was always told was the truth, but it really wasn't.


Originally Posted By: Schlag
My biggest problem is giving a "less hurtful version of the truth" which I always told myself was the truth, but it really isn't.




Now let me ask you.....

If it was a less hurtful version of the truth.....

What do we call that? What do you call that??





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Originally Posted By: schoolbus
Schlag,

The truth simply "is".

There is not a "better truth", or "an easier truth", or "a truth that makes someone feel better".

The truth stands as an entity unto itself.


What Amy asks for is for you to tell her the truth, as you best recall it. She wants you to tell her lovingly, openly, honestly.

There need not be a brutality about it.

There does not need to be a clouded veil to it either.



A clarity, an honesty, an openness to the delivery is best. What happens then is that the betrayed spouse can hear what happened, and know the truth of the marriage, and make informed decisions about their life.


And just so you know, it isn't unusual for a person to remember some things about events, and once you begin talking about things for more details to be recalled. As you begin to confess the events, the very nature of talking about them may jar your memory as to this thing or the other thing - and as those come to you, it will be important for you to go to Amy and tell her that you have remembered more.

Don't lie or cover them up, or wait for her to ask about them. Tell her simply that you have remembered more. Tell her what has come to mind, and what brought it to your mind. It is HELPFUL when the wayward spouse is open in this way - because it hurts to have to constantly ask, beg, plead for information. So as much as you are able to offer her, and in whatever way she has asked you to, offer the information.


SB

Ahhhh... SB said exactly what I've been trying to say over several posts in one neat post. Thanks SB. This is exactly what I was getting at... Or trying too.


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Yet again, I'm going to have to demur with the conventional wisdom here.

"Fact" is incontrovertible. "Truth" is subject to nuance and bias. As Schlag is discovering to his mortification, his "truth", even in his own inner mind, might not perfectly align with "fact".

Let me give you an example.

Situation 1
A man died, leaving an insurance settlement to his financially-unsophisticated widow. The oldest son, ambitious and MBA-equipped, approached her, to borrow a large portion of that, paying her significantly more than other options open to her, for an investment that would also ultimately benefit her beloved grandchildren, by funding their education.

Situation 2
A man died, leaving an insurance settlement to his financially-unsophisticated widow. The oldest son, struggling to support a rapidly growing family, approached her, to borrow a large portion of that, paying her significantly less than commercial mortgage rates, to purchase a rental property in which he was placing no equity at the start, thus beginning a real estate business that eventually grew into the high six-figures of net worth.

Yup, it's the same story, told in the first instance to make NG seem like a hero, and in the second to cast him as a villain. Both stories are verifiable as the "Truth".

The wording of a question on a poly exam would be key in convincing an observer which NG - hero or villain - was involved.

(As for NG's opinion.....Do you have a need to know?)

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Originally Posted By: schoolbus
And just so you know, it isn't unusual for a person to remember some things about events, and once you begin talking about things for more details to be recalled. As you begin to confess the events, the very nature of talking about them may jar your memory as to this thing or the other thing - and as those come to you, it will be important for you to go to Amy and tell her that you have remembered more.

Don't lie or cover them up, or wait for her to ask about them. Tell her simply that you have remembered more. Tell her what has come to mind, and what brought it to your mind. It is HELPFUL when the wayward spouse is open in this way - because it hurts to have to constantly ask, beg, plead for information. So as much as you are able to offer her, and in whatever way she has asked you to, offer the information.


SB

Thanks, I agree and I think Amy would tell you that things have looked more like this lately. She dreads it when I come up to her with something, but she listens and even though she reacts with honesty about how angry or repulsed she is with the latest news, she is rewarding me by being understanding and by appreciating that I'm being radically honest.

(And it is rewarding/healing to me personally to be living this way versus the way I was in the past.)

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
"Fact" is incontrovertible. "Truth" is subject to nuance and bias. As Schlag is discovering to his mortification, his "truth", even in his own inner mind, might not perfectly align with "fact".

I think that the best we can do is remember/communicate the facts as clearly as possible, and be totally honest about our feelings with ourselves and with our spouse. Because in that honesty lies the key to intimacy and healing, with ourselves and each other.

Thank you all for posting.

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I wanted to put these two things next to each other:

Originally Posted By: itistoughlove
You know what is admirable?

A man, father of four, raising his family honorably, with integrity, and with character.

If you want admiration ... then do something admirable. Hot women admiring you isn't one of them.

Your wife will admire your pants off if you give her O&H. Otherwise she has nothing to admire.


Originally Posted By: Schlag
the happiest time of my life, high school, when I was achieving great things and felt great about myself.


Schlag, itistoughlove is right. If you want admiration, you have to live admirably. It really is that simple.

I doubt you really achieved anything great in high school. Think about it. Good grades, maybe, but they are really just numbers on paper. Did you cure cancer? Run a profitable company? Save someone who needed defending? Raise a family? I doubt you did any of these things in high school. Did you run a ball down a field and give your virginity away for a relationship that didn't last? Playing kids' games isn't really as admirable as a lot of people think it is.

You have a chance to become admirable. It will come through serving others: your family.

But you are going to have to quit dealing out lies and half truths. I consider your explanation of why you failed the polygraph to be complete crap. Quit claiming there are mysteries inside of you to solve. Start behaving admirably.

I would start by calling Dr. Harley again and telling the truth.

Last edited by markos; 11/09/11 11:17 AM.

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Schlag #2562290 11/09/11 11:17 AM
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you really blew it up, schlag. wow.

all those casual thoughts about wanting to shake off the wife and family have now come to fruition. hardcore!!

maybe you'll win your way out of this situation, maybe not but i give you props for checking in.

markos #2562293 11/09/11 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: markos
I
But you are going to have to quit handing out bullcrap. I consider your explanation of why you failed the polygraph to be bullcrap. Quit claiming there are mysteries inside of you to solve. Start behaving admirably.



Bingo. I have grown weary of the ever evolving excuses of why he flunked the polygraph. Bullcrap is bullcrap. Why manufacture elaborate rationalizations when the answer is right in front of us all? He lied. Why is it so hard to accept that a liar with a history of lying lied on the polygraph?

He lied. He flunked the polygraph. NEXT. All of this hair splitting and other nonsense is a distraction.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Yes, but ......

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rotflmao

You know, I truly WANT schlag to come clean. I want more than anything for Amy to be able to recover her marriage. But that will never happen if we help Schlag manufacture elaborate excuses about why he flunked the polygraph. The benefit of the doubt is not warranted or appropriate here.

We know why he flunked: HE LIED.

All the rest of this is a distraction from resolving the problem.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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You cant drape a veil over the uglier truths, wrap em up in a tiffany bow and still pass a poly. You just cant.

You cant hopscotch past the anger and disgust of your wife - you have earned those reactions. Take them on the chin and be a man.

I have been lied to up and down by my husband. I would love to hear something ugly from him. I would love to hear hims describe himself accurately for once. The uglier it makes him seem, the truer I will feel it to be and then I may feel that honesty has arived at last.

Dont skim, skip or mislead with the truth. The truth should be a shining sweeping light, that burns off all the cobwebs and mould, dont leave anything hiding in the corners. Check out my sig.

If you ARE doing this, you will pass the poly.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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What do you all think he is lying about so we can concentrate on trying to bring the truth out? The OW affair?? More affairs? Details about the affairs?

Last edited by Amalynn5; 11/09/11 06:04 PM.

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Schlag: FWH or WH... who knows. 2 PA's, many EA's and other issues.
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2nd D-DAY 10/15/11
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Originally Posted By: Amalynn5
What do you all think he is lying about so we can concentrate on trying to bring the truth out? The OW affair?? More affairs? Details about the affairs?


I have no idea. Only he knows.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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please buy Lovebusters because it explains the four type of liars. Right now he is a self deceptive liar, a protective liar, a get out of trouble liar.
His affair has way more detail also. He needs to come clean.

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You ask "why" we believe Schlag is lying.


Here is why:

Schlag presents excuses for his failure of the polygraph which are consistent with the pattern of typical wayward's justifications of avoidance of revealing the entire truth of details of affairs.

We have seen this pattern of avoidance to disclose time and time and time and time again.


For me, this pattern of avoidance is so common it is like seeing walls that are painted. Paint is on the wall. It is not a surprise. In fact, what would be a surprise would be if someone were to say, "LOOK! The paint FELL OFF THE WALL!" Now THAT would garner my attention.


Let's talk about lying behavior, just generically for a moment. Not even "affairs" at all, just lies.

When a person has some behavior which he desires not to be exposed to others, he utilizes a series of lies to cover up that behavior.

Along with the lies he also uses a certain pattern of behavior(s) which allows for the secret to remain hidden. For example, he may frequent a certain business first, then exit that business via a certain door, walk to another business, use the computer there, then exit a certain way, go eat at another place, then return to his office every day for lunch - all performed in order to cover up the use of the computer at a coffee shop for five minutes during his lunch hour.

Certain behaviors such as clothing purchases might lend to cover secrets, or perhaps choosing a van instead of a sedan, for example.

Lies are one aspect of the "crime" or secret he is trying to keep. They are a part of the cover-up, certainly. In reality, the lie is the surface evidence that may indicate to another person who gets the "sense" they are being lied to - which may be the first indicator something isn't quite right. It is the BEHAVIOR that is covered by the lie that is usually the real issue when it comes right down to it (although there are cases where a person just lies, about lots of stuff and doesn't "do" anything but lie).


So, the lying is an issue for Schlag, because in the case of an affair there has been plenty of BEHAVIOR which has been covered up. The affair behavior took place over a period of time. In this case, we are discussing MANY events over several years' time.

The lying regarding the affair behavior also took place over a period of time - years.

So, what we have is YEARS of BEHAVIOR in which Schlag has behaved in a manner PLANNED AND CARRIED OUT TO DECEIVE HIS SPOUSE. There has been a well-executed plan, over the course of YEARS, and a routine that is well-established that provides for the secrecy to carry on these affairs.

Furthermore: Schlag's posts here exhibit CURRENT and ONGOING tendencies to diminish the extent of his affairs. Read his first posts here on this thread - he did not clearly state how many affairs he had, and did attempt to downplay the facts of some of his affairs. It took several posters and quite a few interchanges before we were able to hammer down exactly how many OW and affairs we were talking about.

This speaks to his reluctance to OPENLY AND HONESTLY "put the truth out there".

Again:

The truth exists, as an entity.

You CANNOT color it with any "view". You may know this part or that part; it does NOT change what the truth IS - because the truth remains what it is.


The truth is not subject to one person's desire to "make it look" one way or another.

You either had seven affairs, or you had six.

You either called an OW in September, or you didn't.


The betrayed spouse deserves to know the truth, and to hear it.


I hope this helps to understand why we believe that Schlag is still withholding the truth. It is because much of what he says remains in the realm of the "foggy" wayward spouse - and we want so much to help him get over the bridge so your marriage has a chance.


There is no chance until the details of what happened are known.


And Schlag needs to know that he cannot possibly leave this behind him unless he LEAVES ALL OF IT BEHIND HIM.

You cannot possibly drag this anchor with you, Schlag, if you expect to sail this ship into the future. You don't have to tell us the details. You do have to tell your wife.

And you have to trust that she can handle everything.


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
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Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Update for everybody...

I did an extensive psychological evaluation last week with a specialist at UCLA. He had me do about 3 hours of psychological testing online and then met with me in person for a couple of hours and got my history and did a few other specialized tests that came up from what he saw in the online tests. He diagnosed me (again) with adult ADD and called me sub-threshold hypersexual. So hypersexual behaviors but not enough to diagnose with a disorder.

The ADD diagnosis was no surprise... I was diagnosed about 6 months ago with it. But having dived into the reading on it the last week, I can see that most of our marital problems have come from my ADD. The temper, the not being satisfied with my life as it was, the blaming others for my own miscommunications, the lack of self-awareness, reduced ability to self-regulate, and seeking of stimulation.

I can also see why my memory is so bad. It's Ironic that everyone here says I'm "foggy" - that's exactly how spouses in the book describe their ADD partners over and over again.

So the plan going forward is to continue with therapy, start back on trying out ADD medications, continue on zoloft for now, and get healthy spiritually and physically.

FYI Amy went home for a week to her mom's with our two youngest. I'm enjoying time with our two oldest. I'm using a plotwatcher time lapse video camera to record myself from when the kids go to bed to when I leave for work so Amy can see that I'm behaving myself. smile

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