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Chuck, kudos to you for keeping a respectful outlook upon your son.

Question; would you wish for him to suffer from either end of your sin?

I would guess NOT.

This, sir, is an opportunity for you to model manhood to your son; that a man acknowledges and rakes responsibility for his faults, the perils of seeking approval from women who are not your wife, how a man atones for his transgressions.

You have damaged your son's vision of the most important male role model in his life.

Time to show him how a broken man makes ammends.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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My son...has sent me an e-mail letter stating that if I wish to see him again I will write him a letter detailing dates and times that I was with the other woman

So, with the exception of MB and NG, everyone else apparently feels that issuing ultimatums TO ONE'S PARENT, or caving in to threats FROM HIS CHILD is the correct way for Chuck8464 to demonstrate how mature men face difficult times? banghead

Wow!

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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
My son...has sent me an e-mail letter stating that if I wish to see him again I will write him a letter detailing dates and times that I was with the other woman

So, with the exception of MB and NG, everyone else apparently feels that issuing ultimatums TO ONE'S PARENT, or caving in to threats FROM HIS CHILD is the correct way for Chuck8464 to demonstrate how mature men face difficult times? banghead

Wow!



Personally, I wouldn't give the threat/ultimatum power. Honesty with the victims of your actions should be given without request. Dismissing the damage to your entire family unit, the damage to your children - because they are "just children" - is short sighted.

There are several instances on this very board where poor handling of parental adultery has damaged even adult children.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
My son...has sent me an e-mail letter stating that if I wish to see him again I will write him a letter detailing dates and times that I was with the other woman

So, with the exception of MB and NG, everyone else apparently feels that issuing ultimatums TO ONE'S PARENT, or caving in to threats FROM HIS CHILD is the correct way for Chuck8464 to demonstrate how mature men face difficult times? banghead

Wow!
Yes. I guess we're in the minority, NG. I would never allow my H to deliver the 'particulars' of the affair to our kids. There is NO WAY I would want my children to have those particulars. NEVER.


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Clarify "particulars."


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Clarify "particulars
The particulars are the specifics: the minutaie. It wasn't just coffee - afterwards it was a clutch in the car...then I pulled down her jeans...STOP. THOSE ARE THE PARTICULARS.

I'm surprised you're asking me about that, HHH.


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Well, I guess Chuck has a decision to make. His son has told him if he wants to see him again, he needs to pony up the "dates and times" of his affair. An affair, I might add, that affected this young man directly.

Chuck has more to lose if he doesn't. What does the young man have to lose? A corrupt, unrepentant father? No great loss there.

I, frankly, don't see what the problem is. If Chuck is truly remorseful for what he did to his wife and children, what would be so wrong with demonstrating that remorse by giving him the information he needs?

I think showing some true remorse for his wrongdoing is the correct, mature way to behave. As it is now, Chuck is corrupt and has lost the respect of his boy. This could be one way to earn it back.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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[My son...has sent me an e-mail letter stating that if I wish to see him again I will write him a letter detailing dates and times that I was with the other woman

He is asking for dates and times, not sexual positions. I don't understand the big deal?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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There are several instances on this very board where poor handling of parental adultery has damaged even adult children.

Agreed! And obfuscating proper parental/child lines of authority/responsibility is usually a huge contributing factor.

But.....let's get back to getting Chuck8464 more clearly aligned with the program.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
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[My son...has sent me an e-mail letter stating that if I wish to see him again I will write him a letter detailing dates and times that I was with the other woman

He is asking for dates and times, not sexual positions. I don't understand the big deal?
I agree. Get on it, Chuck.


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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
[bAgreed! And obfuscating proper parental/child lines of authority/responsibility is usually a huge contributing factor.

Proper parental/child lines? With a corrupt parent? Oh no. There is no such thing. The parent obliviates those lines with his corrupt behavior.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I will add that, as a former corrupt parent, that if my child asked me to do such a thing, I would pony up. It would be the least I could do.

I would not pretend like I should be accorded the normal respect of a parent. I was undeserving of that respect.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
The particulars are the specifics: the minutaie. It wasn't just coffee - afterwards it was a clutch in the car...then I pulled down her jeans...STOP. THOSE ARE THE PARTICULARS.

I agree with you, MB. I don't know that I would share that with my child. But dates and times? I don't see why he would have an issue with that..


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
Clarify "particulars
The particulars are the specifics: the minutaie. It wasn't just coffee - afterwards it was a clutch in the car...then I pulled down her jeans...STOP. THOSE ARE THE PARTICULARS.

I'm surprised you're asking me about that, HHH.

Nah. Better to be on the same page with our terms than to continue yet another derisive discussion involving misunderstandings and character assassinations, KWIM?

Certainly the kid doesn't need to know, as sug eloquently stated, "the flavor of the lube." However, a fog-free anatomy and timeline would be a good fatherly service to a son. I wish I had got that from either of my parents at any given time.

It is an opportunity to model marriage to a child in an honest, if very painful, way.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Certainly the kid doesn't need to know, as sug eloquently stated, "the flavor of the lube."
Thank you for describing my writing as "eloquent", HHH, but in fact I did not suggest the "lube" issue. It was brought up by another poster:

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Sorry, Mel, we're going to have to disagree on this. IMHO marital issues (good and bad) are not intended to be treated as 3D-high-definition spectator sports for the entertainment and diversion of children.
Nooo

WH has obviously had his infidelity exposed to his family. Being expected to specify to one's children as to whether POSOW preferred Greek or French, or what flavor lubricant, approaches the voyeuristic and perverse.
My post was merely wondering how a son's request for a timeline had somehow become seen as a request for "voyeuristic and perverse" details - like "what flavour lubricant".


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Thanks for the clarification SC.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Sounds to me like this kid could teach a few things to a lot of the BHs on here about what a boundary is and how far you should be willing to go to defend it.



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I think Chuck's son has clearly set some boundaries in his own life.

He won't deal with his father unless certain conditions are met.
He will deal with whatever consequences his father chooses as a result of setting those consequences, and has decided that includes not ever dealing with his father again.

I think that is pretty brave for a 19 year old.

Where I disagree with the young man is that he wants all of this in writing. I think he and his father need to talk in person. I think the relationship between parent and child deserves that kind of intimate opportunity, particularly with this quite devastating event that has occurred.

Chuck, what I might suggest is for you to go to a family counselor, explain what has happened, and ask for an appointment where you and your son can sit down in a controlled situation with the counselor where you all can talk through what your son needs to say for at least one or two initial times. It might help your son feel safer, and set the forum for a more productive time together for repairing your family. You might call your son and ask him if this would be something he would be interested in doing, because he may buy into it if he feels part of the decision to do it in the first place. ASK him if he thinks it would be a better idea to talk "just you two", or if he thinks it would be more productive if you went to counseling first and then he were to join you to go over his questions at a session or two in "a more structured environment".

See what he thinks. Follow his choice. He is struggling, and it is important to respect that he wants to repair it - and is looking for a way to do this with strength (hence the ultimatum) and still protect mom, and keep you....somehow....


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BTW - I think it is okay to put some things in writing. My first sentence would probably be

"There isn't enough paper and ink in the world to write an apology long enough or deep enough to make up for what I have done.

I apologize to you, and to the family, for my affair, and all the hurt, anger, pain, and devastation it has brought.

You asked for details of the affair I had, in writing. I offer as much as I can here. I want you to know that once you have read this, you will likely still have questions, and you can come to me and talk with me about what happened. Your mother and I are working on our relationship, and I have given her details, and answered her questions. I want to repair our marriage, and our family. I hope that we can one day have the family and marriage we all desire, and I am working on changes I believe will make that possible. For now, I begin with telling the truth."

Then, list the dates and timeline of the affair for him.
Close with the offer of the counselor or meeting face to face.

And whatever you do, make sure you don't lie to this young man. Also, make sure that you tell him if you have gaps, why those gaps are there - and if you are purposely leaving anything out, tell him exactly the truth as to why (for example, if your wife has asked you to leave something out, then you tell him that truth).

SB


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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
My son...has sent me an e-mail letter stating that if I wish to see him again I will write him a letter detailing dates and times that I was with the other woman

So, with the exception of MB and NG, everyone else apparently feels that issuing ultimatums TO ONE'S PARENT, or caving in to threats FROM HIS CHILD is the correct way for Chuck8464 to demonstrate how mature men face difficult times? banghead

Wow!

I ask again why this son's boundary is being disrespected and characterized as a "threat" or "ultimatum."

The son has the absolute RIGHT not to continue a relationship with his father.


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