Hi all,

My original thread from last month is here:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...flat&Number=2551053&#Post2551053

I want to thank everyone that responded to what at least to me was at that time bizzaro world with the OM death and all. It is barely 6 weeks ago and it all seems like a horrible dream.

Update:

We are still living at home all together, at least in her words "through the end of the year while I see if I can develop feelings for you which I cannot even though I am trying." Some days I feel progress, some days we go backwards. I have been plan A'ing my butt off and have seen some impact:

1. Working out each day for 2 months, progress visible She has noticed a number of times;
2. Super-dad with kid time, reading, teaching, etc. (one of her big complaints before). She has commented on this alot, but still does her best to find fault but it is hard for her .
3. No arguing except for a BIG backslide last night (see below, this was my impetus to write today).
4. Agreeing with her and disagreeing without diasgreeing(Mr.Wondering's plan A-B guide has been my mantra, also just finished a long post from TMTS in 2008 that gave me loads of wisdom).
5. Spending all of my free time around the house with family, no business trips unless no way out (another big complaint earlier, married to my job and not her). In fact she said yesterday before the blow-out that "it is ironic that you spend all this time at home and with family when I do not want it but did not do it when I did."
6. Ironing like a mad man (I could not iron a hand towel 2 months ago but now I put the laundry to shame).

We had our first "date" day last week from 10-5 when I took a couple of days off work, spent all day together doing errands, shopping, lunch, it was her idea, she said "I like when we are friends like this." We then had b-day parties for our daughter over the week-end, spent time with friends, decent interaction together with kids and all was more or less as good as could be expected until last night.

We got home after the b-day party at a local restaurant and she attacked me for "not being man enough to discipline our daughter" after a pretty bad marker-couch incident I missed because I was doing dishes; in the past few weeks when we have had progress I have backed away and she has calmed down but this time I couldn't stand it and wanted to set a boundry and told her not to criticize me in front of the kids. I thought it was a mistake, but i lost it a bit. This got her going and although I never lost my temper, she threatened to leave for her mom's, said how she has wanted to leave for years, she hates me, I disgust her, make her a witch, make her yell in front of kids, at kids, etc. I said she is still my wife (mistake to say!), she said only on paper, we have not been married for 6 years (since birth of first kid). I probably should have then backed away but I did not. Instead I tried to educate her I guess and said this all started 6 months ago in April when the EA started, she says she had no affair!! (if you know the last thread, this is utter BS, but I guess in her mind the EA part does not count, or her soulmate is her true husband, or who knows what she is thinking since it is impossible to read this WWs mind!!). She sleeps in our marital bed with our 3 year old since she kicked me out when she announced the intention to divorce Sept 5, and I will often lay down with our daughter to help her fall asleep and then go upstairs and sleep on the couch, but last night I refused to leave, said there was room for all of is, and she refused to come to bed and worked all night. That was probably too much from my side to push like that and i feel like I over stepped one of her boundries or something by kicking her out of her bed.

This AM I said I wanted to talk, she ignored me 100%, and laid down and I sat on the bed apologized for fighting in front of kids, and told her my intention is to be the best father and husband I can be, I have made mistakes, let's not fight in front of kids again. She would not open her eyes and pretended to sleep. I said thanks for listening and went to work.

Frankly, is this going to be the rest of our life? I feel like we had such PROGRESS last week, but then it was all shot to smithereens by last night's debacle. I feel like I am back in square 1 again and she is threatening to leave with the kids to her mom's again (I guess this is progress as although she works, she does not have enough income for an apartment unless I agree to support her which there is no way I will).

The OM is gone, we are all at home still, but she still seems he11 bent on leaving after the new year, especially after last night. When she brings up leaving I change the subject but I am afraid I just killed any hope with our fight and it validating she wants out of our marriage.

Help!!

I mean, is this to be expected? I guess I was hoping, or that bad word "expecting", that with the OM death, she would go through WD and have a slow awakening. The WD was bad the first 3 weeks, and has slowly lessened, sometimes even with her normal self poking through now again (at least until last night), especially last week. But now it seems in her eyes our marriage was horrible and she wants out anyway to be free, she hates me. She told me yesterday her best friend has been seeing the same psychotherapist she saw and has now kicked out her husband as well! I laughed and said, what is this therapist also divorced, and she did not like that and attacked instead my parent's marriage and how staying together for the kids without love is wrong, etc.

One more thing last night, she said "I hate you, and be honest I also know you hate me! Admit it! You think I had an affair!" I said: "No, I love you still." "Mosr men would have left, but I am still here, I am waiting for you, but I will nton be able to wait forever."

I'm wondering if perhaps there is another OM. If the OM had not died, I would be saying her sudden behavior of being mean towards you would mean a renewal of contact...

It sounds like you're doing great. Plan A is not Plan doormat, and most waywards hate Plan A like poison. Thats why they poke and provoke you, they prefer you as the bad guy.

Dont allow any AOs though - if you feel you are reaching the end of your tether its time for Plan B. Your Plan A sounds stellar and the contrast to not having you around in Plan B sounds like you will have done all you could. Dr H says Plan A alone is not usually enough.

The death of OM wouldnt necesarily cause withdrawal. In fact it may have complicated the situation as no one chose to end the relationship. She can keep it alive in her mind. Does she have any gifts, mementos, triggers? I would say she does. These will keep the fantasy alive.

Plan A is not Plan Doormat. If she wants to leave, don't let her kick you out of your own bed. She can find somewhere else to sleep.

And no, you didn't kick her out of bed. She chose not to sleep there. There is a difference.

Hi karmarose,

Thanks for your post. I have no evidence of a new OM, but of course anything is possible. I have done some snooping as best I could the last few days and found nothing. Again though, anything is possible is one thing I have learned, but I am doubtful at this point.

Blackhawk

And I also think her time of the month and take home workload contributed to this outburst.

The fact that OM died doesn't make her less wayward, Hawk. That's the problem. She has fallen out of love with you and still has a wayward mindset.

I think you're doing well, for the most part. Actually, you might be doing a little too much. You don't want to be a doormat. If you tell me you're ironing the bed sheets and socks I'm going to fall over.

That business of sleeping on the couch? Stop it. Why aren't you sleeping in your own bed? If she doesn't like it, she can work all night. But do not allow her to dismiss you from your own bed!

Remind me, please: what is the moving out plan? Why is she staying til the beginning of next year?

indiegirl,

Thanks for your post. I have snooped and found nothing physical to give atrigger and anyway do not think there would be much since this A was mostly electronic. I know she keeps messages on her phone from the OM and on her Skype history and she his pictures from a picnic they attended last spring when this started and from previously (him and his wife were old friends of my wife). I have come in quietly and seen her staring at them and she has quickly changed the screen quickly but not the last week. I can only assume though that of course she still does this sometimes.

I am not ready for plan B as long as she stays and there is no other OM. I want to plan A as long as I can. We have a x-mas trip planned for 3 weeks to the US and want to keep going at least through that if not longer. Or do you think I should plan B regardless? To me it is still early days and I am ok most of the time, although it does get to me sometimes late at night, but I never let her see this, not once since the first couple of days she dropped the news. Last week gave me alot of hope, which is why this setback is hurting so much. I let my expectation get ahead of me.

You are so right with her wanting me to be the bad guy. Her friends were all over complaining about their husbands - no kid time, no housework, never do anything without direction - and I was busy setting up a cheese plate for them, making coffee, and then started ironing. It was priceless, they were like "wow", but then my wife tried to criticize that I had left them earlier that day at the theatre, but they defended me and said it was not my fault. She tried to do this 3 times before she gave up! I enjoyed it actually, a guilty pleasure I guess

Thanks ManInMotion for the post. The bed thing is an issue I struggle to deal with becausce of course I don't want to be upstairs while she is downstairs with our daughter and then our son also is in the room downstairs. When she first dropped the bomb she took over the main bedroom and this is now "her' room although I sleep in there with our daughter if she is not asleep and am in there alot anyway with kids, my suits are there, etc. I worry that maybe this is not yet a battle to fight. Or should I now just push it? I have been taking more of a "one small pebble at a time" approach from an old Mark's Musings thread and when I push her hard she really loses it (e.g. you are still my wife comment, sleeping in bed). I mean, does this really help me improve the R, or does it just create LBs at this point? I haven't a clue. This is what happened last night, I pushed back and got close to losing control when my previous approach was to back off and let her calm down. That seeme to be working better. She can be a drama quen, my wife.

drama queen I meant!

maritalbliss,

Thanks for posting as usual! Your wisdom helped alot last month and helped me grow a pair at a n opportune time. And yes, I see your point with the continuance of the wayward mindeset. It is frustrating to say the least, although I have seen my old wife come out the last week when we spent alot of time together (i.e. "date" day and the 2 days afterwards). But like I posted to ManInMotion, it is hard for me to understand the boundry between 'doormat-ism" and filling her LB. For example, with the ironing I was doing the kids clothes, my clothes and hers. She asked me NOT to do hers, but then I do them anyway and she does not say anything, but seems to like it. It seems a fine line. Btw, i am ironing the sheets but it is a slapdish job on those I draw the line at socks though

And also like I wrote to ManInMotion, the bed thing is an issue. I am afraid this will just cause conflict and piss her off so have given her space, wanting to let it happen at the right moment. Twice my daughter and son have fallen asleep with me in the main bed and she has slept in my son's room. She seemed touched by it. I think after our fight that last night she saw it more as disrepect and pressure and it could have been a LB. Perhaps better to wait a couple of days and then push this again?

On moving out, I laid it out what I want, she just never agreed to not move out at the end of the year if her love had not returned! She says she is staying because she has no choice since I won't pay support. I have been vague when pressed, she says I will not compromise, I change the subject. I am ignoring the end of year date. She says I can't keep her against her will, I agree, she wants me to rent two apartments, I laugh and said why would I do that when me and my kids have this nice big two floor place to call home? I have just tried to duck and weave when she brings this up.

Her big thing now is buying acar for herself. i tis funny. She can't even drive, bless her heart, but she wants a car??!!! About 2 weeks ago she asked me to buy her a car and I said I will once we reconcile and she says "See, that was a test, and you failed!" I thought to myself. "yeah, a test to see if I have lost IQ points recently..."

You know, one question I have it what to do/expect next? if plan B is usually required anyway, 6 months of plan A will be April. Man, she has to break before that, or is that wishful thinking? Should I talk to the Harleys?

A few thoughts on the bed issue: Staying in your bed and your room is not an LB. SHE is the one that wants out. If she wants to sleep elsewhere, then she needs to leave the bedroom. You are staying in your bed. That�s not a love buster. It is a boundary of self respect. SHE wants out, not you. There�s no reason for her to push you around on this.

The OM may be dead, but she�s still very much wayward. I wouldn�t be surprised at all if she was fishing for a new OM.

There�s a difference between being a doormat and with drawing boundaries. One of those gets you respect. The other doesn�t.

There�s no need to fight or argue about some things. She�s going to get horribly mad when you draw your boundaries, but that�s fine. She�ll respect you versus you laying down and rolling over.

Have you made the divorce picture clear for her? You need to do so if you haven�t. Make it clear that if you do divorce there will be no friendship between you if you split. Trust me when I tell you, there really won�t be any. You might try to convince yourself as well that there can be such a thing, but there really isn�t.

Let her know that if she decides to divorce or leave that you will file for abandonment and request the kids, the house, alimony and child support from her.

Tell her that path is an ugly one and you won�t make it easy. Make the alternative much better. Let her know that while divorce might be ugly, fixing your marriage is not.

Also, don�t walk on egg shells about her affair. An emotional affair is an affair, whether she wishes to admit it or not. So when she says she didn�t have an affair, you simply say that it was. Calling it otherwise doesn�t make it less so. Don�t be afraid to hold your ground. Pining over another married man is an affair, especially if there were exchanges of emails and conversations IS an affair.

Here�s the litmus test to challenge her with: Would OMW be ok with the exchanges she was having with OM? Would OM be able to share the email exchanges or phone conversations with the OM not getting upset?

You could use yourself, but it�s too easy for her to say, �You�re unreasonable and jealous.�

So use OMW. If OMW would be uncomfortable with their exchanges, then it is an affair and inappropriate!

Why can�t she drive? I think this was an opportunity for you to make a deposit.

Plan A is not Plan Doormat. If you let your W(?)W walk all over you in your own home, she's going to lose even more respect for you, and you will endanger your M even more.

Time for you to establish your personal boundaries. Getting kicked out of your own bed is definitely something that should NOT be acceptable.

From what I've read so far, it sounds to me like you've got a "walkaway wife" with no place for her to walk away to. She will make your life miserable if you give her the opportunity to do so. I say Plan A, but set a definite time limit on how long you do so. And start protecting your finances, if you haven't done so already.

DONT walk on egg shells. She will take it as being touchy and use it against you.

Be cheerfully up for intimacy. 'I am sleeping here tonight babe - wanna join me?'

and just as cheerfully acknowledge her right not to - 'OK sweetie, I am here if you want me. I am gonna miss you though - you sure?'

dont allow her this fantasy of separation she has forced you into. she thinks separate beds entitles her to be wayward.

If she sleeps on the couch or another bed, tuck her in , kiss her cheek and leave her with an invite to join you 'when she wants to'

Thanks helpthelostdads for your post.

On the bed issue, this seems to be the general agreement. i spoke with my marriage counselor last night and she said the same thing, just start sleeping there. She will either sleep there too or sleep elsewhere in the house.

On the boundries, my wife has anger issues and will respond in stressful situations with kids, me, in public with AOs when she become anxious or impatient. This has become worse as our second child hit 2 years, and was over the top during the first couple of weeksof WD last month. I am working hard on setting boundries in a calm consistent way and with my own self-control. I realize she does not like herself when she has these AOs, and of course blames me for them, that I "make her a witch." She does not like it when I set boundries of course, but i will continue especially with her being critical of me or yelling at me in front of the kids. It is hard and something I am focused on now.

Something I have done in the past when she has these AOs, is to withdraw. I would go upstairs, which is where I am (was!) sleeping, it became my "man-cave" I guess. I don't stay up there anymore and am always downstairs with the kids, cooking, reading, etc. That obviously has not worked! I will instead engage directly, set boundries and help her behave better.

On divorce, this has been said. On the firendship thing, I do want to work this in, and will look for an opportunity next time it comes up. I have also come to the conclusion I do not want friendship with her without R, it would be too painful, and anyway I agree it is unrealistic.

About the affair, thanks for this advice. It makes sense. I believe in her mind she has decided it was not an affair since the PA was really short (once, maybe twice AFAIK), and she is telling herself the EA was just that and since she decided in her wayward mind in August we were done, the PA was then allowable. I can't see how she could say there was no affair without these rationalizations. the way she collapsed and camme to me for support when he died and when she admitted everything said it all. I wonder if she is now trying to disbelieve there was an affair in case I go to court. or maybe she really believes this. Who knows what is going on in her mind, I sure don't. I like what you suggest about the OMW. I will use that next time she takes this path in a convo.

On the car, we have lived outside the US for the last 10 years for my work. We live in a country where there is good public transport and most people do not drive. I have a car for work which I use but we have never bought one for her since she has never learned to drive. Even when we lived in the US, we lived in cities like NY or DC where a car is somewhat optional. She really wants to learn to drive, i offered to pay, and anyway she has a job amd can pay herself. She just does not have the car and has no savings. I have always controled the cash, etc. and took it all away once this started after getting advice on here. So, I told her I would be her a car once we R and she agrees to work on the marriage. She then said that was a test and I don't love her or I would buy her a car. Frankly, I can see her learning to drive, and then loading up the car with stuff and kids and driving to her mom's 8 hours away. Do you think I shiuld buy her the car anyway?

ManInMotion,

I just wrote alot to helpthelostdads on boundries, and this is something I am determined to work on. Previously I would withdraw when she would have her AOs, but that strategy has failed in the longrun obviously, she has loat respect for me from her, does not like herself when she has AOs, and blames me for them since she calms down when I withdraw! Totally counter productive, you are right.

Yes, she is a WAW but without the finances to get her own place. Even if we D or seperate, due to some technicalities about my work and where we live she cannot force me to support her. If we D in the US, I will destroy her because of the A and my warchest. On PLan A, i realize 6 months is normal with an ongoing A, but what about in a situation like this? No A, two steps forward, one step back. We had our first "date" day last week and spent all day together doing fun things and she told me she liked it when we were friends like that (I think this allowed her to save face). There was even some good sexual tension. But then the rollercoaster goes back down and there is a blowup after she has an AO and she spews filth, how she hates me, etc. The verbal assaults have become less than they were a couple of months ago before the OM died and during the first couple of weeks of WD. I think last week was really a breakhtrough becaus eof the date day and a couple of other days when we spent alot of time together, but then Sunday night exploded after her AO. now she is giving me the cold shoulder again big time. She is being short, sort of rude, but not in an angry way. I respond even nicer to her when she does this, and she hates it I know.

indiegirl,

On the eggshells thing, it is hard. I do not do this all the time, but when she is in a bad mood I do. i will have to work on that.

Wow, I never realized the seperate beds thing is feeding this wayward fantasy. And she won't allow to to tuck her in or touch her (positive thinking: yet!). Like I wrote earlier today, everyone is telling me just go sleep in our bed, so why not? I'll try it and let you know what happens

She has touched me a few times the last week for the first time since early August: rubbed her hand up and down my back during a party, rubbed my shoulder during a kid function at school when we were sitting close together, on the date day we went to a store to clothes shop and were in the dressing room together trying on clothes and checking to see what fits in our underwear, laughing, etc. (so lots of good sexual tension that day!). I go out of my way to get "casual' touching and am a predator about it (it is one of my love languages) without her realizing it, but she seems receptive until a new shutdown and AO happens and I am the hated ruiner of her life again. Now she wants nothing to do with me after sunday night's tiff. But last night was really calm, she just gave me the cold shoulder all night.