{{{{Sweetpea}}}}

I thank you so much for sharing where you were and where you are.

These anti-versaries can be so incredibly difficult. I am SOOO relieved that the business trip is off and probably won't happen. In your case it is a MAJOR trigger to be away. Best he stays by your side by not going or taking you with you!

May be time for a little stash of travel money in case a trip raises it's ugly head sometime soon? I'm trying to find a way to do that here. Not easy to find the money in the budget, but it is cheap insurance to not have to go through this ever again!!

pAp

You sound much better! I'm glad to see it!

Yeah....my first husband cheated as did H's first wife. We were both young in those first marriages - no kids in either case. But uh....no offense taken! hee hee

I completely understand your needing to write and get it all out. I did the same kind of thing last night. I had a rough night Sat. night and a rough day yesterday, after just giving you all that advice!

I immersed myself in my Vietnam book review... fun stuff. lol

I haven't written about my rough day on my thread yet. I'm not sure I have the energy. sigh. Triggers are a pain in the you know what!

Sunny:

Yes. Hate the triggers, love the man? What? Wait!

Am sorry you had a rough weekend, too. Probably reading too much crud on my thread!

I did order HN/HN and the workbook, so FWH and I will be embarking on that for the next several weeks. He is very concerned that either I'm not telling him clearly enough or he's not listening well enough to meet my needs, and hence, banish the remaining doubts, anger, sadness, etc., relating to the affair.

And, I've been thinking that it's time I dial back on my MB forum reading and posting. It's been an every day, several times a day need in my life, and it's time to let go a little bit. So, starting next week, I'm only going to check/read the site once a day. Eventually, I'd like to check maybe once a month.

I give so much credit to the vets on here who post day-in and day-out. Not sure I've got the stamina to participate that fully.

Hmmmm.

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I have had an absolutely INSANE week.

I understand the need to dial back your forum time. I do it from time to time purposefully if I feel I am triggering because of it. (And others just because I'm so dang busy!)

I think there will come a time when it is easier to help others via forum posting because time has passed and healing is more complete. For now, I think it's easiest to focus on recovering and talking about how best to implement the program strategies - at least for me.

Sometimes you do truly need to vent to people that understand what you are going through. Other times you need reassurance that following the steps is going to get you to the other side. Keeping things focused on the future is definitely my new goal...rather than looking back. Finding that balance of being honest and open yet not ripping apart old wounds is my toughest challenge - because I tend to keep things inside for fear of lovebusting. It sounds to me that you have the same issue since you said your H is concerned about not knowing exactly what your needs are.

I really think HNHN will help! You will feel better as you learn how to express your needs without making it about the affair. That's what I'm finding! Instead having to go to that "I am so hurt you turned to someone else" place you learn to emphasize the "I need to feel special to you" part of what's inside. While it doesn't take the pain away from him turning to someone else, when that need is fulfilled by him, it's natural for that pain to lessen.

I can really see the beauty in the MB program when I stop to think about it. It's win/win and so few things in life are. When your base needs are met, you are able to put the past behind you because the need-meeting trumps the past!

Nicely put, SunnyD.

Thanks, MB.

I find I usually am the most insightful when I need to remind myself of something as well as help someone else. It's always easier to look at someone else's sitch and see what's what rather than your own. BUT...that's why I think the forums are so useful. In helping others, you truly do help yourself.

MBers:

All is well in SweetPea land, and I just wanted to say

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to everyone!!! I'm so grateful to have found this website and for all of your generosity as my FWH and I have put our marriage back together.

I have NOT been able to keep my vow to only check the site once a day, but I'm facing a HUGE break from the internet soon because we're switching services and AT&T claims it can't install for nearly three weeks. Plus, we had to deactivate our current service in order for AT&T, allegedly!, to do it's job. In fact, our internet service should have ended two days ago, but it's mysteriously still coming through the line.

So, I will be limiting my readings to breaks at work. And that should get me down to one viewing per day.

And during this time, I intend to put "HNHN" with the workbook on our weekly agenda to more firmly bring FWH into the MB fold.

So, eat, drink and be merry tomorrow. And I'll post if I still can next week!

Cheers,
SweetPea

Why, oh, why do I feel compelled to wish my brother-in-law a happy birthday today.

He was my FWH's buddy in having simultaneous affairs in fall of 2010. He has been cheating on his wife for 26 of their 27 years of marriage. He is getting treatment for sex addiction. But I suspect that he and his wife are going to divorce, not reconcile. His wife and I haven't talked in months, and the last time we exchanged emails, it wasn't good. My FWH and I are committed to recover, full transparency and MB. They seem hopelessly doomed, at least from what I can tell.

I should hate him. Loathe him. And in some ways, I do. Disgusted by his actions and his influence on my FWH, too, as his older brother.

But I did care for him before I knew about his hidden horrible ways. I hope he can stop his behavior, and I worry that if he can't change that means my FWH may not either.

THey are not the same man, for sure. Different in many ways. Completely different in their behavior on DDays: my FWH confessed right away and committed to therapy and our marrage; brother-in-law trickle-truthed and continued contact for months and months; lie after lie, too.

I guess I've answered my own question. He is still toxic to my FWH and me. Until he has changed his ways for a long time can I even think about letting him into our lives. If ever.

Sigh. The perils of cheating hit again.

Well, Sweet Pea, I am not sure why you feel compelled but I know I've been there. Strange that you mention this, in fact, as I was thinking the other day about a similar situation. (Not making this about me - but sharing this may help us figure out what's going on, perhaps. I hope!)

I once got a birthday card, along with a $20 gift card, to a coach of my daughter's who had treated her horribly! I called him out on his borderline-abusive behavior, calmly, and then he went postal on ME! I had decided my daughter would not be going back the next season, but would finish out the current one. Anyway...after all that, I STILL went and got him that dang card. WTH was I thinking??? He didn't deserve it, that's for sure! Did I just want peace at any price???

Maybe you are the same with BIL? For me, I now know that what compelled my card buying was my unquenchable need to be OK with everyone and everyone be OK with me, regardless. Now: before I go any further I will say Thank Goodness I had time to think on things before giving that card to Coach Jerk - and I didn't give it to him.

It may not be for you that you have to need to make peace at any cost like it had been - and still is at times - for me. I think that comes down to the sense of self worth. My H doesn't care if he breaks ties with someone who he feels has done him wrong. I seem to feel compelled to make it right. Of course, that also was a factor in his waywardness - being willing to leave a marriage rather than fight for it - because he supposedly was "SO unhappy." Maybe it's a personality thing more than a self worth thing even. The thing is, one has to learn that it's OK to have "uncomfortableness" in a relationship with someone who is not doing right.

In your case, maybe you want things to go well for your BIL because he is a reflection of your husband, in some ways. When we look at our spouse's family we can't help but see our spouse. When the family looks dysfunctional - it can lessen our positive feelings towards our partners: you know - guilt by association. In some ways it is justifiable. Our spouses were raised with these people and share a background. Certainly they were influenced in the same ways and influenced each other. In other ways, you're right: it doesn't mean they are the same people, not at all. As grown ups we all decide how our past is going to direct our future, and what we're going to do about it.

In my opinion, it is a contextual thing as to whether or not you should wish him well on his birthday. If he's apologized for his part in the infidelity and is making changes - why not. If he hasn't, then I wouldn't see any need to condone his bad behavior with an emotional reward. It depends on the background: if you've said your peace with him and he knows your stance on adultery, then offering up a pleasantry doesn't go along with being hard line if he is still unfaithful to his wife. (From what it sounds, he is still unfaithful.)

I can't support a MOVIE with infidelity in it anymore, much less a person. Doesn't mean I can't let them know I will be there for them if they ever decide to do things right....but I don't think a Happy Birthday fits that mold. That's me though.

Sunny:

You are such a wise counsel! I'm so glad you chose to read my thread so many weeks/months ago!!!


FWH's three siblings all have serious issues. I don't blame BIL for FWH's cheating, but I do think their shared background and BIL being older played some part in it being acceptable behavior on a guys golf weekend. Ugh!


He has apologized, months ago. I told him back then that only time will tell if he has the integrity to make his claims of healing/change stick. This call was in April or May.

But ... his wife and I have talked several times since, though not recently. Everything she said this fall leads me to believe that they will divorce and are only staying together until their youngest is in high school.

BIL's wife doesn't believe he's capable of change. He's been diagnosed a sex addict, and she's read a lot of the literature about it and believes there's very little hope. And she is now viewing everything that ever happened in her life and what is currently happening in her life through a veil of mistrust and having been manipulated by a narcissist, understandably.

So ... BIL would like us all to believe he now knows why he cheated, lied, etc., and that he won't ever again. SIL is biding her time to scrape the barnacle that is her husband off her prow, and scrape his broader family (parents, my FWH and siblings) off too because they are all tainted/manipulative/liars. Who can blame her!

If they stay together, I fear it will be as a damaged marriage, never fully healed, never happy. Open to more adultery. Ugh!

So, it's very toxic.

But back to me. ... My need to wish him a happy birthday?

I do think it's because I DESPERATELY WANT him to change. I WANT him to be the great guy I thought I knew. But this time, he's really BE THAT GREAT GUY of full integrity. Not the cheating scumbag he was.

I feel bad that his Facebook page has all of about six birthday wishes, and only ONE from one of his five children.

That has got to hurt.

But ... maybe next year is when I should take stock of his healing and wish him well.

Make sense?

SP

P.S.: Forgot completely to chat about the whole Tebow thing you mentioned. The other night on ESPN they were debating which was more "important": Tebow's crazy wins, or the Packers potential perfect season. Couldn't believe they were siding with the Tebow thing, given what the Packers have done so far. Crazy!

Analysts I've seen all favor the Packers being more important. And...even though I'm a huge Tebow fan, I would agree. An undefeated season is CRAZY. But...as I said...I do think there's been some media pressure taken off Green Bay. Normally the press would be hounding them about this. They're too busy hounding Tebow. SO...I hope he's helped out the Pack in some way, because I love them! Always been a Broncos fan - but like GB too. (Born in Denver, raised in Florida. A Gator plus a Bronco = huge happiness for me when Tim went to Denver!)

Your BIL can talk all he wants about changing and knowing. Let his ACTIONS show where his heart is. When you see actions in the right direction, support THAT, not words. Words are meaningless.

I'm glad he apologized. Perhaps, when the time is right, you can tell him how much you want him to be happy, but you believe he needs to be doing more to make that happen.

Next year may be easier. Right now you are still in recovery - not recovered - and that means your marriage has to be protected at all costs! Well, it always does, but you need outside influences at a minimum to help to get to "recovered."

I'm glad we have each other for that wise counsel!

Dr. Harley has ended up on the phone with a lot of people with spouses who are sex addicts over the past several months. Much like food addiction, it's an incredible challenge to overcome because it's a fundamental human need, and usually the sex addict leaves a long string of crying partners behind him or her.

The prognosis is rarely good.

blarg. can't sleep.

had a great weekend with the FWH, even though we had one pretty difficult conversation on our ride home from an out of town trip.

fwh still looks at porn at work. says he's reduced his viewing so much (from multiple times a day to once or twice every couple of weeks) that he thinks he can eliminate it on his own. I said that twhile, yes, he's obviously "improved" he clearly hasn't been able to stop on his own.

After a long discussion, he ageed that this behavior deserves the help of his therapist. I really like his therapist, and believe he can help fwh with behavior modification to stop it.

So, that whole convo ended well. FWH will get the help he needs to eliminate a huge risk factor in our marriage.

But then tonight happened. It was his office managers party. He agreed that he would only drink two beers. (fwh has had trouble staying in control wjile drinking.) Came home and told me he had three beers.

This is another glaring example when fwh chooses to break an agreement because he CHOOSES to satisfy his own needs than safeguard our maariage.

And he minimizes both things tremendously.

sigh.

Hmmm... it isn't good that he breaks your agreements. It's good he was honest - he could lie - but it's like he wants the gold star for the honesty and to dismiss the wrongs he did. That is NOT protecting your marriage, you're right.

Was there no way for you to go to the Christmas party? I know my husband's was not a spouse thing either.

You have to show your H that it is serious business to disregard the safeguards in place - the things that make you feel not safe in the marriage. I believe that his honesty shows he does care about that. But...caring is not enough. His actions must follow. He deliberately broke POJA.

Hey Sunny:

Yes, it's good that he want to be honest. And he does want some acknowledgement that he's come so far, which he has.

After thinking about it for a few days, my theory os that FWH's transformation and therapy thus far has been somewhat "easy," although neither of us would say it's been easy. But he's been so happy to become a man of integrity and to also discover what makes him tic ... both good and bad.

His lingering porn viewing will be VERY difficult for him to kick, he says. As bad as his smoking. So I think he's been avoiding it, because if he says he's really ridded himself of it, and then he decides to view again, he will feel defeated, and of course, will violate my sense of what is right. Meaning, I think he believes that there's no way he'll ever cheat again having put into place all our therapy and MB principles. But this porn thing is all on him.

Re the breaking of agreements. We talked more about it yesterday and he says that he felt completely in control and that one more beer wouldn't put him at risk. But he acknowledges that his comfort level -- especially with alcohol -- doesn't match mine, and more important, that his CHOOSING to break an agreement is horrible.

Regardless, he is going back to therapy to address the vestiges of his porn viewing AND to firm up the issue of his independent decisions.

At first, he wanted to come home every day and report to me that he hadn't viewed porn. I hated that idea because I wouldn't do it without spyware on his conputer and I'm really not interested in putting spyware on his computer unless his new stint in therapy doesn't work. He was kinda ticked that I wouldn't just "trust" his self-reporting to me, and I could just see a really horrible dynamic developing.

In fact, I'd rather have him do a lie detector on ocassion to prove or disprove his porn-free status, rather than some crazy daily report. Ugh.

So we'll see what happens!

He can't do it by himself. The way to solve this is to eliminate the conditions that make the porn viewing possible.

Sensing a common thread here, right? Just like the way to prevent affairs is to eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible.

So when & where does he view? How does he view? What does he do to view? Eliminate those conditions and you're a long way toward eliminating the habit. Set up the computer access times so he can only use it when you're home. Don't allow laptops in the bathroom.

It's actually an easy habit to kick if you can set up the right conditions to make it possible. Those conditions may include no Internet usage for the rest of his life, if necessary.

I agree with Door: you have to eliminate the conditions in which he does the viewing. That may be hard if he has internet access at work. My husband's job blocks all those kinds of things but not all do. They can't even get on Facebook anymore, in fact. (Which is great for me because FB was the catalyst to his affair.

Have you laid it out for him how his porn viewing makes you feel? Does he know how it can make you feel inadequate and lessen your attraction to him, as well as make you feel unsafe???

Yeah - he's going to need help with this one!

But, it's good that you're talking about it! And it shows he is vested in recovery.

Now - the thing about the spyware is this: it may be more for HIM than for you! He may not like it, but if he believes you will know, it will greatly deter him from going there.

Also, what about installing software to block those sites? We did that on our kids' laptops.

Hey Doormat and Sunny:

FWH's habit is at work, which of course is a violation of his employment rules. However, he's in charge of IT, so he believes he'll never get caught.

Besides being detrimental to our relationship (unrealistic expectations, objectification of women -- all of which he's fully aware), it sadly reinforces one of his major "tap roots" of bad behavoir: the rules don't apply to me.

He is fully aware of how bad this is, even though he's been able to reduce the frequency of his habit. As I stated earlier, I believe he's having trouble because he knows it will be difficult, and he wants to be the GOOD guy -- as he has been so far in our recovery. Not the permanently damaged guy who may not be able to control himself, and who may not be capable of having internet access because of his habit.

I'm willing to let him work with his therapist for awhile ... maybe three to six months. I would rather see him develop a healthy habit of going to websites (like THIS ONE!) or video-photography sites (we're starting a side business). To me, that's the healthier way to stop this.

And I know: He may not be capable of having an open internet at work, much like an alcoholic can't have booze around. So be it, if it comes to that.

I see it much like many MB principles. Sure, I'd love to go on an occasional girls' weekend, but I married a man who has boundary issues and we must have no nights apart. If I want a secure marriage, I can't do those things, but I'm OK with that if I want an absolutely secure marriage.

So, does this seem to be a reasonable approach, or do I need 2x4s?

Well, I think someone who has more knowledge of porn addiction may be able to provide more practical advice in terms of whether or not you need a 2x4...but...I'm not sure I'd be leaving him to his own devices. An alcoholic can't socially drink or slowly wean themselves off alcohol, you know? Him thinking he can slow his porn view-age down and eventually stop is unhealthy. If he can't stop cold turkey he has a problem. And yes, the bigger view is if he thinks he is above the law, that doesn't leave you very safe.

Did you see this thread? Porn Addiction It was started by a women whose H was involved in porn. MelodyLane linked a few MB radio clips regarding porn.

I listened to the links and noted the following:

Pornography in Marriage

Is this a gray area? What harm is it?

Not advocated by Harleys, even if negotiated for erotic qualities.

Is POJA not applicable in pornography? What if both spouses agree to it?
Not if it�s illegal or not a good idea in general
Default position of not doing anything doesn�t apply if one�s health or safety is in question

Pornography is bad for marriage due to the contrast effect. When sexual arousal is gained from viewing someone outside the marriage, the spouse then contrasts poorly. The person being compared to then looks boring.

All sexual relations must be exclusively met within the context of marriage. In contrast, pornography is often seen as more desirable.

What about fantasies? Thinking of another person for better sexual arousal will still result in contrast effect. Don�t allow one�s mind to think of any other than spouse. Eliminate all other sources of sexual arousal.

Masturbation�results in lowered sex drive for man. Most have problems with premature ejaculation due to the conditioning of the reflex. The contrast effect between masturbation and sexual intercourse and when a man masturbates, sexual intercourse seems boring in contrast.

Pornography makes men less interested in their own sexual partner. Desensitizes a man. Makes men impotent and contributes to premature ejaculation. Need more and more intense stimulation.

They want their wives to do what the porn images suggest, something many women are often not interested in doing.

Pornography is addictive and harmful to a relationship due to contrast effect. No sexual experience in any other place or way. Arousal and climax must all done with spouse. When making love, both partners should be in enthusiastic agreement as to the way they are making love.

Consider Plan A and B if emotional needs are not being met.

Read HNHN, Sexual Fulfillment Chapter.

From article: Is Pornography Driving Men Crazy, Naomi Wolf, Jun 30, 2011��As with these other reward triggers, after the dopamine burst wears off, the consumer feels a letdown � irritable, anxious, and longing for the next fix.�
Naomi Wolf-Is Pornography Driving Men Crazy

From article: The Porn Myth, Naomi Wolf--People are not closer because of porn but further apart; people are not more turned on in their daily lives but less so�. A whole generation of men are less able to connect erotically to women�and ultimately less libidinous.

If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it. Naomi Wolf-The Porn Myth

Dr. Harley had read the Naomi Wolf articles and found them very interesting.

When I found my H viewing porn, I demanded that he immediately end it. I asked our pastor for his guidance and he was able to direct my H into a special group at a church for sexual addictions of this sort. Turned out to be enormously helpful. He had never seen a problem with porn or masturbation--"who's it hurting?" Well, now we know who it hurts!

Just my 2 cents worth.