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[
I had an affair. I wouldn't have gone back four times if I wasn't getting something I wanted out of it. I enjoyed it. Michelle Skanky filled my emotional needs and I filled hers. She told me she loved me (presumably) because she felt it, and I told her it back. I denied that I loved her to myself because I had some black and white view of love and I didn't want to believe I could be such a huge piece of s#!t do that to Amy. But there was a love bank being filled by another woman. That is undeniable. And I was filling hers when I should have been filling Amy's. Undeniable again.
I also went back looking for it again in the last 6 months. I wanted to change my ways 2 years ago but didn't get it done. I made promises to put in place what we now call EP's but didn't get it done. I continued to lie to Amy because I thought the truth would be the end of us. I failed in what was probably my only chance. All weasel words are struck out.
Last edited by MelodyLane; 11/17/11 12:48 AM. Reason: correcting POSOW's name
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I think you already gave the answer.... "Why is this a goal of yours? I don't see "convince your betrayed wife you never loved the POSOW" anywhere in the Marriage Builders program. It's just not there. You are not searching for an answer to a philosophical question in phone records. You are trying to persuade your victimized wife not to believe and feel what her instincts lead her to believe and feel. You've only got six months, and this goal is a waste of time."
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I know that I didn't love the OW. I used her. I got fulfillment from the affair but I didn't love her. I'm convinced. I would have missed her when I broke it off if I had loved her. The fact that I talked to her later in march and july 2010 doesn't mean I loved her. But that's not how Amy views it.
Because she believes it and she thinks until I admit it I'm not being honest with her. And until she believes I'm being honest with her, I get nowhere. I remember struggling through this... Not terribly long ago. I was right in Amy's shoes. No BS wants to think their spouse is just a user to get what they want. That maybe love is somehow better to just using the person. If you didn't love her, you didn't love her. There's nothing you can do or say to make Amy feel better about it. She needs to come to grips with the degree of baseness that you perpetrated on everyone. A careful explanation (probably repeatedly) of what you loved about OW may help her reconcile this. The truth is, while you may not have loved her, you most likely loved what she did for you, said for you and gave you... Work this out and move on. I see there was later an admission.... Either way.... work it out plain and simply and move on...
Last edited by celticvoyager; 11/16/11 07:58 PM. Reason: read the rest of the thread
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.... Well, all I can say is that my memory is terrible and it has been for a long time. And the book that I'm reading about ADD say that memory is especially effected by the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and serotonin, two of the three neurotransmitters discussed with respect to ADD. http://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/add-and-memoryI find it telling that your actions are focused on..... YOU! How exactly has this reading material been helping your marriage?? You need to be reading/studying MB material, books, articles, etc..... and forget all the other books.... especially since your memory is so bad. You'd have to re-read them all every six months or so just to keep up with your potential memory lapses.
Recovery began 10/07;
Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Right now Amy is filing for divorce, monitoring EPs, and wanting the full truth. She will let me date her and try to win her back if she sees me get healthy and demonstrate the new man that I am trying to become. Do you see how your lies are short-circuiting this goal? You ought to follow MelodyLane's advice: it is much harder to defend lies than it is to just vomit the truth and face the music Your are fighting like a lunatic to avoid doing the one thing that would demonstrate the new man you are trying to become. In other words, you are trying NOT to become him. Being a protector liar is hindering your goal at this point. Do you own Love Busters (the book?) Do you own any Marriage Builders books at this point? Buddy, if I was you I would get (and read, and re-read) them ALL!
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I know that I didn't love the OW. I used her. I got fulfillment from the affair but I didn't love her. I'm convinced. I would have missed her when I broke it off if I had loved her. The fact that I talked to her later in march and july 2010 doesn't mean I loved her. But that's not how Amy views it.
Because she believes it and she thinks until I admit it I'm not being honest with her. And until she believes I'm being honest with her, I get nowhere. I remember struggling through this... Not terribly long ago. I was right in Amy's shoes. No BS wants to think their spouse is just a user to get what they want. That maybe love is somehow better to just using the person. If you didn't love her, you didn't love her. There's nothing you can do or say to make Amy feel better about it. She needs to come to grips with the degree of baseness that you perpetrated on everyone. A careful explanation (probably repeatedly) of what you loved about OW may help her reconcile this. The truth is, while you may not have loved her, you most likely loved what she did for you, said for you and gave you... Work this out and move on. I see there was later an admission.... Either way.... work it out plain and simply and move on... This is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to reconcile the fact that I didn't love her with the MB definition of love... what was emotional need versus what was an appetite. I might fantasize and anticipate and then consume a hot fudge sunday... but it doesn't mean I love the hot fudge sunday. I may enjoy the hot fudge sunday and feel guilty afterward and know that I shouldn't have eaten it. Did I love the hot fudge sunday? I consumed Michelle in the same way. Did I feed my sexual appetite with her? Yes. Did I fantasize about moving closer to get more sex? Yes. Did I fantasize about spending my life with her? No. Did I fantasize about marrying her and having a child with her? No. Did I talk to her on the phone? Yes. Did I talk to her on the phone because I loved her? No. Did I talk to her because it got me what I wanted? Yes. Did I use the OW? Yes. Did I love the OW? No. Was I a piece of s%&t for making the choice to cheat on my wife? Yes. Was I a piece of s%&t to lie to my wife for years? Yes. Do I want the OW? No. Do I want my wife? Yes. Does my wife need to heal from the fact that I perpetrated this baseness on everyone? Yes. Does my wife need to heal from me betraying her trust? Yes. Does she need to heal from me loving someone else? No. I find it telling that your actions are focused on..... YOU!
How exactly has this reading material been helping your marriage??
You need to be reading/studying MB material, books, articles, etc..... and forget all the other books.... especially since your memory is so bad. You'd have to re-read them all every six months or so just to keep up with your potential memory lapses. I have been reading and studying MB material as well. All of it. Understanding my ADD is important to getting healthy in general. Just because I'm talking about it here doesn't mean I'm emphasizing it more than studying MB concepts and being radically honest and working my EPs. I'm doing all of it. Right now Amy is filing for divorce, monitoring EPs, and wanting the full truth. She will let me date her and try to win her back if she sees me get healthy and demonstrate the new man that I am trying to become. Do you see how your lies are short-circuiting this goal? You ought to follow MelodyLane's advice: it is much harder to defend lies than it is to just vomit the truth and face the music Your are fighting like a lunatic to avoid doing the one thing that would demonstrate the new man you are trying to become. In other words, you are trying NOT to become him. Being a protector liar is hindering your goal at this point. Do you own Love Busters (the book?) Do you own any Marriage Builders books at this point? Buddy, if I was you I would get (and read, and re-read) them ALL! I am fighting like a lunatic to stop being a protector liar without admitting to things that are not the truth. I have SAA and will get the others asap. I've been working off the website articles thus far.
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I think you already gave the answer.... "Why is this a goal of yours? I don't see "convince your betrayed wife you never loved the POSOW" anywhere in the Marriage Builders program. It's just not there. You are not searching for an answer to a philosophical question in phone records. You are trying to persuade your victimized wife not to believe and feel what her instincts lead her to believe and feel. You've only got six months, and this goal is a waste of time." ...but it's what she is focused on and it's very hard for me to sit back and not address it. She feels there is truth missing. Do I just let her feel that until she doesn't feel it anymore on her own by my actions?
Last edited by Schlag; 11/17/11 11:10 AM.
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This is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to reconcile the fact that I didn't love her with the MB definition of love... what was emotional need versus what was an appetite. I might fantasize and anticipate and then consume a hot fudge sunday... but it doesn't mean I love the hot fudge sunday. I may enjoy the hot fudge sunday and feel guilty afterward and know that I shouldn't have eaten it. Did I love the hot fudge sunday? I consumed Michelle in the same way.
Did I feed my sexual appetite with her? Yes.
Did I fantasize about moving closer to get more sex? Yes.
Did I fantasize about spending my life with her? No.
Did I fantasize about marrying her and having a child with her? No.
Did I talk to her on the phone? Yes.
Did I talk to her on the phone because I loved her? No.
Did I talk to her because it got me what I wanted? Yes.
Did I use the OW? Yes.
Did I love the OW? No.
Was I a piece of s%&t for making the choice to cheat on my wife? Yes.
Was I a piece of s%&t to lie to my wife for years? Yes.
Do I want the OW? No.
Do I want my wife? Yes.
Does my wife need to heal from the fact that I perpetrated this baseness on everyone? Yes.
Does my wife need to heal from me betraying her trust? Yes.
Does she need to heal from me loving someone else? No. ![[Linked Image from upload.wikimedia.org]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Mustela_nivalis_-British_Wildlife_Centre-4.jpg/220px-Mustela_nivalis_-British_Wildlife_Centre-4.jpg)
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How about sparing us the bullsh** and just call up your wife and tell her what you told us yesterday? Yes, you loved Skanky and that is the truth. I told you yesterday how to do it without being a weasel. [
I had an affair. I wouldn't have gone back four times if I wasn't getting something I wanted out of it. I enjoyed it. Michelle Skanky filled my emotional needs and I filled hers. She told me she loved me (presumably) because she felt it, and I told her it back. I denied that I loved her to myself because I had some black and white view of love and I didn't want to believe I could be such a huge piece of s#!t do that to Amy. But there was a love bank being filled by another woman. That is undeniable. And I was filling hers when I should have been filling Amy's. Undeniable again.
I also went back looking for it again in the last 6 months. I wanted to change my ways 2 years ago but didn't get it done. I made promises to put in place what we now call EP's but didn't get it done. I continued to lie to Amy because I thought the truth would be the end of us. I failed in what was probably my only chance.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yep. Pare it down to the core and git 'er done, Schlag.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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I find it telling that your actions are focused on..... YOU!
How exactly has this reading material been helping your marriage??
You need to be reading/studying MB material, books, articles, etc..... and forget all the other books.... especially since your memory is so bad. You'd have to re-read them all every six months or so just to keep up with your potential memory lapses. I have been reading and studying MB material as well. All of it. Understanding my ADD is important to getting healthy in general. Just because I'm talking about it here doesn't mean I'm emphasizing it more than studying MB concepts and being radically honest and working my EPs. I'm doing all of it. HerPapaBear's advice was not "Do all of it." It was "Forget all the other books." He's succeeded in this, so you might want to listen to him.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Schlag, I was not a wayward husband, but I was a weasel, too. Please listen to the very good advice you are receiving. Go back and reread the last few pages. I'll admit your little analysis checklist is slightly better than digging through phone records, but only marginally. Just do what MelodyLane said: The way to do it is to STOP equivocating or manipulating or minimizing. Stop it. No more I "didn't realize it was love" or "I was scared.." Just tell her the truth. Here is how it is: I loved her and was addicted to her. I lied about it. Let us know when this step is done. We're going to think a little more of you at that point. P.S. We already know Dr. Harley's definition of love, so we know the answer.
Last edited by markos; 11/17/11 12:05 PM.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Schlag, over explaining things and engaging in hair splitting, mind numbing explanations does not convey sincerity or intelligence.
The truth is very simple actually and does not need long winded, contrived explanations. People are not impressed with equivocating. Remember Bill clinton? Was anyone impressed with his "it depends what the meaning of the word "is" is? No. People laughed at him. He was a laughing stock.
The truth does not require all this hair splitting mental masturbation. It is really very simple.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Well, I'm devastated and horrified at the polygraph results.
The questions were:
1. Did you tell Michelle that you would leave Amy for her?
(I had her change it from "Did you talk about leaving Amy for her" so that I would be sure to pass it.)
2. Are you being honest about your intentions in telling Michelle that Amy was in the room for the phone call?
(I was sure I would pass this one)
3. Are you witholding information about any sexual or emotional affair from Amy?
4. Are you witholding any information about sexual internet activities from Amy?
I thought that I would pass with flying colors on at least the first two.
I thought I might have a problem with the last two because there's so much I don't remember and I really feared those questions.
But I failed all of them.
So I apparently am lying even to myself.
Amy and I have talked about this for the last hour and a half and the only explanation for what everybody else is seeing is that Michelle meant/means more to me that I will even admit to myself. Enough that I could lie to myself two days ago in that phone call and believe my reason for saying Amy was listening.
I also must be lying to myself about telling Michelle I wanted to leave Amy for her. I know that I never said those words, but I must know underneath that the words I did say, and comments like the Brady Bunch comment, really did say to her that I wanted to leave Amy for her. I am absolutely certain that the conscious thought I had about leaving Amy for her was dismissed because I never really wanted to leave Amy for her.
There are no other sexual contacts besides the list I've posted. (The "experimental" thing I didn't list in public was seeking a homosexual affair that was never followed through on. Amy knows fully about that.)
So The deception all around just has to be me lying to myself about the entire Michelle relationship. I don't want to believe that I loved her. I know that I believe that I don't love her today. But the phone call two days ago says that on some level I was sabotaging what I was trying to say to her.
If I am witholding truth, it is from myself. Which is really scary for me and for Amy right now.
The evidence says that I can't let go of this drug. I am looking at the evidence and I just can't believe it. But there it sits. I went back and reread your polygraph questions. It looks like you need to answer the following questions. I will write the answers for you. 1. Did I tell POSOW that you would leave Amy for her? YES, I DID1. Did you talk about leaving Amy for POSOW? YES, I DID2. Are you being honest about your intentions in telling POSOW that Amy was in the room for the phone call? NO. I wanted that woman to know Amy was in the room so I could continue to hide my affair from Amy.3. Are you witholding information about any sexual or emotional affair from Amy? YES, I AM. THERE ARE THINGS THAT I HAVE THOUGHT OF OR REMEMBERED, BUT HAVE NOT MENTIONED TO HER.4. Are you witholding any information about sexual internet activities from Amy? YES, I AM.Did I love that other woman? YES, I loved her and was addicted to her. I lied about it.There. I dug the answers out for you, based on the work of the experts above, like MelodyLane and Pepperband. I've learned a lot from this discussion, and I hope you have, too. If I am witholding truth, it is from myself. Which is really scary for me and for Amy right now. It's no big deal, and you don't need diagnosis and treatment. You just need to start telling the truth. If you can't tell Amy today, I'd practice reading these questions and answers out loud in front of a mirror or something. But really, that'd just be silly. Why don't you call Amy or walk over to her, and read the questions and answers to her, straight? Or you can waste days or even months trying to decide if these are really the correct answers or not. But you only have six months, and that is not as much time as you think, and you're not making much headway. These really are the correct answers. I mean, who are you gonna believe: yourself, or us? Remember, you're a liar. And collectively, we've seen you several hundred times, so we already know more about you than you will tell yourself. Plus, since you failed polygraph questions with "no" answers on several of these, it's obvious the correct answers to those questions are "yes." That makes it easy! Right now, you are failing Amy's emotional polygraph.
Last edited by markos; 11/17/11 12:37 PM.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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This is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to reconcile the fact What page is "trying to reconcile facts" on in Surviving an Affair? This is what liars do, Schlag. Do you want to cease to be a liar? Then quit trying to make the facts say what you want.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Schlag, I was not a wayward husband, but I was a weasel, too. Please listen to the very good advice you are receiving. Go back and reread the last few pages. I'll admit your little analysis checklist is slightly better than digging through phone records, but only marginally. Just do what MelodyLane said: The way to do it is to STOP equivocating or manipulating or minimizing. Stop it. No more I "didn't realize it was love" or "I was scared.." Just tell her the truth. Here is how it is: I loved her and was addicted to her. I lied about it. Let us know when this step is done. We're going to think a little more of you at that point. P.S. We already know Dr. Harley's definition of love, so we know the answer. I did not love her but I was addicted to her and how she made me feel. I lied about it. Think what you want of me, but that's the truth. POSOW was a hot fudge sunday. That's the truth Amy needs to accept and heal from. Now, excuse me while I look forward and concentrate on not eating any more hot fudge sundays for the rest of my life. Unless my wife is cookin'. All of you who are willing to take this journey with me and believe that I mean to do it, I humbly and gratefully ask for your help.
Last edited by Schlag; 11/17/11 02:18 PM.
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I did not love her but I was addicted to her and how she made me feel. I lied about it. And you are still lying and splitting hairs. Yes, you did love her. We love people based on the WAY THEY MAKE US FEEL. <----that is romantic love. So, cut the bullsh** and stop saying you didn't love her. Yes, you did.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[
All of you who are willing to take this journey with me and believe that I mean to do it, I humbly and gratefully ask for your help. Of course I don't believe you mean to do it. You have to actually DO IT in order to be believable. If you want people to believe you, then cut the crap and get honest. Stop wasting our time with bullcrap. You can't bullsh** a bullshi**er.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Schlag, I was not a wayward husband, but I was a weasel, too. Please listen to the very good advice you are receiving. Go back and reread the last few pages. I'll admit your little analysis checklist is slightly better than digging through phone records, but only marginally. Just do what MelodyLane said: The way to do it is to STOP equivocating or manipulating or minimizing. Stop it. No more I "didn't realize it was love" or "I was scared.." Just tell her the truth. Here is how it is: I loved her and was addicted to her. I lied about it. Let us know when this step is done. We're going to think a little more of you at that point. P.S. We already know Dr. Harley's definition of love, so we know the answer. I did not love her but I was addicted to her and how she made me feel. I lied about it. Think what you want of me, but that's the truth. Michelle was a hot fudge sunday. That's the truth Amy needs to accept and heal from. Now, excuse me while I look forward and concentrate on not eating any more hot fudge sundays for the rest of my life. Unless my wife is cookin'. All of you who are willing to take this journey with me and believe that I mean to do it, I humbly and gratefully ask for your help. Schlag, I sense you feel disrespected by me. I'll be happy to deal with that with you, but I encourage you to put it off six months and concentrate on the burning building here: your marriage.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Schlag, I want you to know that it is a terrible offense to your wife -- as well as to every other betrayed spouse here -- every time you include the name of your affair partner here.
I encourage you to simply say "that woman." I think it sounds best out of the several options I've been thinking about suggesting.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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