As a fellow migraine sufferer - Topomax is wonderful for me to prevent migraines. The side effects are killer for some people, but to me the side effects at their worst are way better than the migraines.

Also, the drug coctail I use - Aleve (or other stronger painkiller), Benadryl (2 or 4), and sometimes phenegram for naseau. Never have rebound headaches from that.

But, the Triptans can cause rebounds in some people.

Thanks for the migraine tips.

So NG, you corrected our Canadian friend. But the question remains, isn't that one of the tenets?

OK so we determined I can't spell especially when I try to use that university english, but did we come to a group decision on the book?

And stretch what is the plan till January? Really what are you trying to get done? Is the three months just padding so you feel better about leaving? Not that I would blame you, you have the GOOJF card, same as me.

Here is the deal, she is "on the fence". She wants to get "off the fence" which means she wants to quit. I don't believe she ever really tried. But she wants to move forward with Divorce.

These are her words: "I am ready to move on. There is no chance of me falling back in love with you. There is nothing more to do to try to convince me." "My heart has moved on."

I won't quit. I am still here. Still willing to try Recovery. She has not even really tried in my opinion.

Bad advice all around her. She asked in counselling yesterday, "I wish someone would show me a path to fall back in love." I said, "I am sharing all sorts of ways and paths, and you don't want to even start."

I think she has just started working on herself. Just really started.

3 years ago: She said, "I want a divorce."

Year 1: I ignored her so she pursued an affair
Year 2: We start counselling. Deceitful counselling. But I get on board nonetheless and make major discoveries and changes in myself. They don't seem to help. Hmm? I can't figure out why.
Year 3: (Jan-Jul TY) D-Day / Exposure Day. And 6 months of emotional turmoil
Year 3: (last few months) I am strong & and stable. She seems to actually start work on herself. It finally feels real to me. She doesn't like it. It makes her "not feel good." But at least it seems real. I see her growing and getting better.

And now that it seems we are getting somewhere, she says, "I still don't feel better so I am done."

I believe that work on herself is hard, scary, easier to run. I want her to stay with me while I help her work on herself.

Too many people around her know "HOW" to do divorce. But no one around her, that I can see, knows "HOW" to do marriage.

She wants peeople to hold her hand, and say, "I understand... you poor thing. I've been there with my D, let me help..."

Stretch;

I want you to look at your verbal exchange from counseling, and tell me using MB terms what it looks like to you.

Suggest the phone counseling as they can better respond to that question than you can...you're too biased in her eyes.

Not sure why you edited it, but she agreed the book was an issue?

Yes she did agree about the book
Phone counselling: She has always resisted. I told her today that I am going to call Dr H myself. Fyi. I think he can help. Maybe she will join me some day.
HHH: Am I a big bad DJ'er. Is that what you saw?

"Bad advice all around her. She asked in counselling yesterday, "I wish someone would show me a path to fall back in love." I said, "I am sharing all sorts of ways and paths, and you don't want to even start.""

Stretch,

Pretty sure HHH is looking here. That's what I read, anyway. Hope that helps?

How would I say that?

I believe she won't try. I believe she is as stubborn as I used to be. She said, "Don't bother trying. My heart is closed. No chance."

I believe she wants to run away from feeling bad -- from admitting anyway that she has been wrong in the relationship. I believe she needs to realize that I cannot be blamed for every failure, every time she has no initiative, anytime life has difficulties or is hard, for feeling bad about herself because she has been a SAHM for so long.

That's what I think.

If you cannot use a DJ. Then what? I am a little distraught. Using my MB training is hard right now. Using it on someone who is running away is really hard.

She uses the DJ on me all the time. I take it in. I listen. I process. I evaluate it.

OK, logged back in.

I don't have answers for you, but maybe some insight. Warning: I am going to irritate you, and I'm sorry!

You can't change her from not wanting to try to trying. The ONLY thing you can change is your approach. Will it work? Dunno. So, let's look at that one sentence and try to learn from it. Yech. I know how that sounds!

You can keep asking her what you can do. She'll keep saying "nothing". Then you'll get ticked, and get right back here to this spot. Understandable but predictable.


The way I see it is this...stop talking about this. Do versus talk. Do something. Play a board game, go bowling, go see a band, go to the zoo, go to a batting cage...laugh. That likely sounds ridic to you now, right? I can almost guarantee WW feels cornered, and you can un-corner her.

One thing: you said "you believe that she needs to"...and you go on. Argh, Stretch! Yes, you may "believe that she needs to", but remember that you can't change what her actions are? Nor what she needs to do. She is her only motivation. You can only provide the environment for her. And, that environnment has boundries and EPs. All you can do is welcome her into that environment. You can only change and control you, and provide the best platform for her to want to change and meet your needs. And, vice versa.

I know Surfer. I know.

Guess I just don't have any Plan A energy inside me.

She said, "We'll go to couselling a few more times becuase I think you need the space to say what you want to say in a safe environment for both of us."

It's no good coming from me.

Yesterday and today, I told her what was on my mind and she is trying to write it down, to capture the words precisely -- not exagerrate or get it mis-quoted. She often comes back and says, "I want you to know I did hear you and I am trying to work on that."

She says, "I am still open? Any other suggestions?"

So, what about Plan B?

Have you explored this? I personally think you need this. I don't read your sitch day/day though. Not sure I need to?

Is it time?

Me thinks it is as your LB$ is likely at 0.00.


Have you thought about it? Getting an IM?

"We'll go to couselling a few more times becuase I think you need the space to say what you want to say in a safe environment for both of us."

OK, Plan b, Stretch. I know you've done everything you can to avoid it, but she's not feeling any consequnces.

My opinion. You've done enough, and if you don't Plan B your LB$ will be so negative that you won't have anything left.

Need my sisters to pep me up. I can do one more month of Mr. The Best Stretch I can be.

January was the end of my rope -- I stated that.

Tomorrow I will re-visit all the reading for Plan B.

How do I respond to LB behavior. Sarcastic, angry outburst and DJ all in one.

Earlier today she said: "In all this time you haven't ever said to me, 'Mrs. Stretch, you've been home with the kids for 14 years... lets sit down together and really figure out what you want to do and how we're going to start your new career."

First of all... I have. I believe I am very supportive. I've encouraged her to try any number of things. I have been called, "too pushy. too conrolling. stop trying to make me do something you want me to do."

Second of all... its a pattern. She got stuck/ mad at herself/ tried several times to start a job or something but found road blocks and reasons to drop the idea. And now, the pattern.... its my fault.

When she saifd that earliert tonight... I just lose all MB training. How to respond...?

Plan B?

Yeah, it's usually the last, ultimate approach for a recalcitrant, emotionally estranged, spouse.

Okay, but is it necessarily the advisable strategy for the...different...problem that Stretch is struggling with? I think not.

The critical decision remains: Is Mrs. Stretch organically capable of being the loving, responsive spouse that Stretch (and all of us) would desire? Or are those aptitudes not within her ability, therefore rendering her not subject to the "cold water" that Plan B throws.

Stretch? What do YOU think?

I do think so. She is warm, gregarious, tender, generous. There is a beauty in the way her faces expresses itself with people. She loves the way people make her feel. Friends... families.

More to the point... can she be intimate with someone? With me? Can she be HONEST about what is inside? It's scary. She hates feeling vulnerable around me.

She is a lover. And a lovely person. But capable of DEEP love? Intimate honesty? Radical honesty?

Two years ago I would have thought all my sentances above were new wave, flaky mumbo jumbo. I really get it now.

Can she accept someone close to her that maybe really knows her, gets her, accepts her, loves her... while she continues on her life journey?

Maybe she wants to "remake" or "Rediscover" herself and not have an intimate partner that knows her inside and out. (DJ! DJ! DJ!) I know...

More to the point... can she be intimate with someone? With me? Can she be HONEST about what is inside? It's scary. She hates feeling vulnerable around me.

...and a Plan B is supposed to address this how?

*** I AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL IN THIS FIELD, SO TELL ME TO SHUT THE HELL UP IF YOU WANT! ***

Look, I am the LEAST touchy-feely, new-wave, humanistic person you can imagine. My career was one in which success came from deciding on the desired result, and maximising the effectiveness of the effort invested in achieving that result. I tend to retain that bias in my advice.

Months ago I posited that your wife's EA was more likely the result, than the cause, of (what you now recognize as) her emotional flaws. In short, she is suffering from a sickness, and your decision remains whether or not to help her through it.

It may not be an ideal marriage. It is the one you have.

Well remembered. Thanks NG.

EA was a result of her sickness... not the cause of emotional flaws.

You expect me to keep my marriage. So do I. I am committed to do so. I do not intend to file. Or simply walk away.

I told you I see progress. That is encouraging. (Her new meds, btw, seem to really work well!)

Unfortunately, the decision is up to her. She states that she plans to move with finality in Jan. Almost certain she will move on with D in January.

Uh, what?!?

I may be in the minority here, but I'd call her on that. What is that, a threat or something?

So she's saying she's out of there in January and, in the meantime, you're supposed to just let her wallow around until she gets her crap in order?

Give me a break!

If it were me, I'd ask her just what she is planning to do. If she says she's waiting until January to leave, tell her that if she's leaving you AND THE KIDS in January, why wait? Tell her to go file for a divorce if she wants to leave the family (say "me, [kids name], [kids name], etc.), but that you think there's too much at stake to just quit like that. Your goal is to make her see that she's leaving all of you, not just you. Make sense?

Tell her you have a plan to get this mess back on track, and you believe that you AND her owe it to the kids to make an effort.

Your plan, then, is to do the phone counseling. Ask her what she has to lose? Ask her if she thinks that the kids deserve the two of you making every effort to see what can be done with this marriage.

What if it doesn't work? she may ask.

You respond, Well what if it does!

Using the children as the reason for trying may sound off, but, if you've been on your best behavior with damned near zero LB's, meeting EN's, etc. then you're kind of out of options at the moment.

She sounds scared, stretch, and is just itching to quit because she sees no alternative. Offer her one, but don't cower to these threats to leave and make sure that you emphasize that she's the one choosing to leave you and the children.

While the EA and her behavior is probably linked to the depression, it's not an excuse for continued bad behavior.

Dig deep here and go all out before you call it quits.

I agree that you need to get her on the phone with one of the Harleys. You can also use the approach that this phone counseling is a way for her to help you understand why she wants to end it. It may seem a little underhanded and sneaky, but you're trying to save your marriage. It's your last ditch effort. And this way, you can also talk to SH and find out if HE suggests PB for you.