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And I'll add that I doubt your wife will even do anything once January comes around.

To me, she sounds too lazy and is just telling you all of this hoping you'll throw in the towel and do the work for her. Uh oh, I'd better watch out...I'm starting to try to rationalize and make sense of the ramblings of a member of the Foggy Club.

Take the wheel, instead, stretch.

Last edited by Northwood8900; 11/28/11 07:52 PM.

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NW - I can't imagine her acting without my help. She needs all my support to get through a Divorce.

But, if she has to do it on her own.... she will. She can. She'll have to. But you have good insight. January rolls around and nothing happens unless she gets me to do it.

Links to a good Plan B letter needed.

NG - you still believe Plan B is pointless in my sitch?

What is IM?


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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You're totally underestimating her. She's been letting you do all the heavy lifting and hard work while she wallows in her "depression" which is really just an excuse to do nothing.

When it comes to what she wants (freedom to sleep around and have the kids part time), she'll move mountains to make it happen.

You've been infected with her fog and you've bought the narrative of her fragility, depression and weakness. Better start waking up now or she's going to continue to roll right over you.

She's not the sad mess she's portraying. It's just her way of getting off the hook for being a terrible wife and partner to you. You continue to take the blame for her behavior by allowing her to wallow in her unhappiness.

I'd be writing up a plan B letter TONIGHT if I were in your shoes.


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links to Plan B letter advice? Anyone?


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Man I feel great after a hard core workout.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Originally Posted by Forest11
Stretch, let me show you what my ww wrote to me friday morning:
""It took me a couple years to admit but i left this marriage then. I want to get my own place. I'm afraid our friendship will be ruined if we live together and neither of us want that. We need to put our focus on her children. I need to take my stuff to my counselor and you need to take your stuff thyo your counselor. And WE need to focus on our children because they really need us right now." She gave me that Friday morning, after she refused my continual demands to end facebook contact with om.

I wrote an immediate Plan B letter and left the house that afternoon. I sent a copy of the letter to the om and his wife on facebook.

Within 3 hours, she had reversed her long-standing stance against marriage counseling and agreed to it. She also agreed to stop seeing om (he broke it off after his wife got my letter and she is now depressed).

I did plan B because I had nothing to lose. And it was very liberating. But who knows where my marriage will be tomorrow, or tonight or in a week?

I would encourage you to pray and BE GOOD TO YOURSELF. I run marathons, I havent since the affair but I'm going to get back into it. We have to TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES if our spouses go crazy.
I hope you have a peaceful night
Forest, please stick around. Good to have a plan B partner


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Here's a link to Plan B letters in the Notable Posts section of the MB forum: Plan B letters


Married 1980
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Quote
Forest, please stick around. Good to have a plan B partner
Stretch, Forest was in Plan B for about an hour. He left the house and then turned right around and went back. He was not in Plan B. He has since come to this website, which is great, but has some ideas we're having trouble getting him to lose in order to save his marriage.

If you want some really good Plan B advice, you need to talk to Scotty. I'll see if I can scare her up. You know those Canadians - she's probably playing ice hockey or something. smile Indiegirl's Plan B has been sterling as well.


D-Day 2-10-2009
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In my sitch there is no ongoing affair. I killed the EA. I like everything else about the Plan B letters in the link. These are very good separation terms letters.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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NG - you still believe Plan B is pointless in my sitch?

Pointless? No. Ineffective? Yes.

Plan B does two things - actually several things, but I digress - and is geared to facilitate separate reactions in the two principals.
  • It throws a large bucket of cold water on the WS, presenting to them in stark clarity what life post-D life will be like, by cutting off ENs that existed before - no family dinners, no emotional/finacial support, no SF, no affection, IC or RC. This result will, IMHO, not have the desired effect on your particular WW. It appears she's... immune? inured?... to those elements, anyway, (Is there such a categorization as "emotionally autistic"?), so having them withheld will not hit her at all. She has, after all, been "Plan B'ing" you for months.
  • It protects the "self" of the BS, releasing him from expending EN chits to no discernible effect. This will likely have a beneficial effect on you.
The odds are HUGELY stacked against the typical WS deciding that the missing ENs are so valuable that they return to the marriage. In your case, they are that much more so. It would be almost a certainty that your Plan B would be a pre-Plan D. If you're going to pull the pin on the Plan B grenade, do so with that foreknowledge.

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I haven't been able to flood the rink in my backyard yet. It's too balmy and warm in Minnesota. But hockey will start soon!

MB - I am confused and need your advice on Plan B. You understand my sitch. The EA is killed. But these letters sound just like the words and actions I want to use.

I am thinking, meet in the driveway every Sunday at 3:00 for the transfer of the house.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Thanks NG.

She is very clear. She wants a divorce. "In January" She wants to do it in her fantasized way. Including getting EN's in Dec. (even SF sometimes)

"We can still be friends."

I was equally clear. I need to protect my heart and move on.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Originally Posted by stretch123
In my sitch there is no ongoing affair. I killed the EA. I like everything else about the Plan B letters in the link. These are very good separation terms letters.

(Caveat: I did not have to go to Plan B in my sitch. My comments are coming from having read Dr. H's writings about Plan B, as well as having watch various posters over the past few years who have been in Plan B or have attempted to do so.)

Stretch, Plan B will still be a good bet for you, regardless of whether or not there is an ongoing affair. I still think that your WW has had the best of all worlds, and cannot defog because of that. There have been NO consequences for her behavior. I think that, if you continue to be her rescuer and fall-back guy, she will never de-fog. I am concerned that you will end up catering to an ex-wife and making sure she never has to feel the pain of her actions. That's your choice, of course. But Plan B will protect YOU and give you a chance to establish a healthy life (with someone else) without her.

Plan B does not guarantee that your spouse will return to the marriage, but it does offer you the best way to protect yourself. The problem I've seen here with a lot of betrayed spouses is that they go to Plan B, but they don't really mean it. That's why I don't want you to be distracted by anyone who claims they've been in Plan B, but have had on-going contact with their spouse. That is NOT Plan B.

Here's an excerpt from what Dr. Harley writes (emphasis mine):
Quote
Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

<snip>
While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s spouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

But what about marital separation when an affair is not the issue. In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.


D-Day 2-10-2009
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I have heard the call, and I am here. No MB, I wasn't playing hockey, it's still too warm here to have an outdoor rink as well, and parts of the US are more north than where I live. It's like when some southern tourists come across the border in JULY with SKIS. Really? end t/j

I went back a few pages and skimmed. How is this Plan B going to work? Did I see something about switching the HOUSE every other week? Do you have an IM? I see that you are figuring out your PBL, and there are some GREAT examples. Have you read the thread by MF about Plan B? It's in the notables.

Are you prepared to disengage from your WW fully?

You need to know that Plan B isn't about saving your marriage. It CAN be, but it is mostly to remove YOU from the drama of affairland. It is to help YOU heal.

I see that you believe that there is no active affair, but that your WW is not on board with MR and that is the necessity of this Plan B. How is your LB$ holding up?

There are some GREAT advisors on MB whom have not Plan B'd themselves, I should know, I was helped by them.

Read everything you can on Plan B.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
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Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

“Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.”
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My LB$ is pretty low. MB knows my sitch pretty well. My WW has indeed had the best of both worlds. She gives me nice moments of LB deposits here and there. And I love them, of course. And I get hopeful for a little bit.

I need to protect myself and remove myself from her. This may not recover the marriage. But alas, my WW has been very clear that she has no interest in recovering the marriage. Its over for her.



Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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I have an appointment with Steve this morning. Can't wait.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Good job!

It'd be nice if you could get your wife involved in the call. I've seen it mentioned before where, to get her on the phone, he'll say "tell her that I have some questions about you (stretch) and that I'd appreciate getting her input on some things that you've said."

Something along those lines. See what he thinks.


Me (BH)
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Just myself and Steve for a nice long call. Great stuff.

He highly advises against Plan B. My LB$ and energy and spark of hope is a precious commodity right now. It won't take much to extinguish it all.

My Strategy (recommended by SH) :


Say to my wife: "I talked to Steve Harley. He said something interesting. Let me know if you agree. He said, 'The ideal scenario for Mrs. Stretch is to be truly and deeply in love with the the man who is the father of her kids.' Do you agree with that?"

If she says "No." Then I can say. "Hmmm. Maybe I didn't explain what truly and deeply in love means. I think it means feeling connected, desiring to be with that person, heart longing when you're apart, looking forward to spending a life together. Would that be your ideal scenario? Would it be your ideal scenario to feel that way with the father of your kids?"

She will probably say "Yes.... But..... impossible, no hope, blah, blah, blah."

"OK then," I will say, "I agree with you. It is the ideal scenario. I would like to look into an idea that such a thing is possible for us. Its possible for Mrs Stretch to have happiness. Why not research solutions? And possibilities? Would you give him a call."

I am ready to accept refusal at first. And come back and ask again later. Any of these attempts will do:

"We are both on a mission to be happy."
"Wouldn't it be great if he does have a way?!"
"I think there is a way for Mrs. Stretch to have her ideal scenario. The happiness she desires. Here is someone who says you can have it."
"I promise I will not take this one phone call as a commitment. At a minimum it just means you are helping me."
"Here is my way in joining you with this idea of divorce. Right now I cannot. Something is in my way preventing me from seeing this idea of D as a solution like you do."
"If there is some impossible flaw, some reason our happiness is impossible, I need to understand that. I would like to be as sure about the D as you."

"You introduced me to the Harley's books. Thank you. I've done a lot of reading. Everything they write makes sense to me. I investigated. Looked at the ideas. I am still considering the idea that Mrs Stretch and I can have the ideal scenario -- happiness together, for us and for the children."

I don't believe my wife can categorically dismiss the possibility completely to live a life of happiness with the father of her children.

These words actually came from her the past two MC sessions. SH was stunned when I told him. She said, "I wish someone could show me how to heal my heart. I wish someone had the answer to make me fall in love again." SH said, "Wow. That's great. Does anyone answer her?" Well, just me. Only me. And I either carry no trust or possess not the ability to coach us. We need help. Someone to answer her plea. There is a way to have what she wants.

I will try to get her to at least spend an hour on the phone with Steve. One step at a time.

Last edited by stretch123; 11/29/11 03:14 PM.

Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Sounds good, stretch. Do you feel a bit better at least having a plan?


Me (BH)
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So, Steve Harley agrees with me about not beginning a Plan B just yet?

[Linked Image from ux1.eiu.edu]

He evidently is very wise!

Seriously, Stretch, I've said it before: Yours might not be an ideal marriage right now, but it is the one you have.

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