Thanks to all of you guys and gals. I am so glad that this site exists. I know that I should always talk things over with my wife, but sometimes it's good to get outside feedback. Sometimes it's really disheartening and that's when you have been trumps for me, to help me get over the bad spots.

Well, now that we have some short-term and long-term goals, we can get to work to make this happen. We are all really excited, and it took a lot to stop both girls from tearing the house apart, packing, etc. But to hear and see them working and planning together with giggles, hugs, jokes, and the like, did my heart a power of good .

Ahem, CV, I'm with you on the Jarhead thing.

I rather thought the good thing D. Harley has pointed out, is that we are all (at least potentially) Wayward, the same way that we are all sinners. Each and every one of us has Other Persons that have love banks in our brains/hearts.

Because we realize that, we take care (EP) to hold our distance from people of the other sex that we like, or are starting to like. For some people it is harder then for others, to not have those love bank-accounts filled by other people.

I would count myself to the ones having to take EP, because I consider myself 'highly inflammable'. People will just have to be not angry with me, or hold open doors, and WHAM they have plenty of love bank dollars with me. I do not open these accounts conciously or willingly. I suspect some little gnome prepares these accounts in advance. Or maybe I have a low treshold for romantic love banking or something.

But even people that are not so lightly infatuated, have to guard themselves. Expecially those people, because for them it happens unnoticed, until they find themselves somewhere, they did not expect.

That was the long way of telling you, we are all very impressed by your ability to think and rethink about things. Not many people can really truly look at themselves, and think their decisions over. That takes true maturity, which is rare these days.

I take off my hat for you, sir.

Happyheart

Why thank you, HappyHeart, that was a very kind thing to say, and I'm flattered that you took the time to send me such a thoughtful and interesting post. But I have to tell you that I'm just a guy trying to make the best of a bad situation, nobody special. I can usually work at something , until I get it right, but it helps to have the input of others, and I ALWAYS appreciate it. Sometimes I get angry, but I want ALL of you to know how much this site has meant to me.

I just love this. You clearly have a wonderful family.

Excellent developments, MM. Now how about we lock this thread, and begin a new one with a less.....ominous.....title?

Talking to mom or a female relative unless you're a red neck (Red Necks take no offense that part is a just s joke) is not the same as talking to women that hint at being interested in dating you.

Again having intimate discussions with other women (excluding safe people such as mom, aunt, sis, cousin, etc is setting up the situation where you are allowing other women to meet you emotional needs.

This sets the stage for stepping onto the Slippery Slope.

Justification is justification whether you drop your pants or not.

You want to step out there then have a nice slide.

Your offended?

I'm offended that you chose to only want to hear what you like to hear instead of the truth. Other's here have told you stay away from those other women.

Yet you kept on defending not having appropriate boundaries.

If such justification on your part is not being fogged as a response and thought process of a WS then what is?

You kept on justifying talking about intimate marriage problems with other women that have dropped hints.

Then after being called out on it many times by many people, you back peddled faster then the speed of light saying they were mostly relatives to play down your lack of judgement.

But you have yet to admit that what you did was wrong with the non related women.

Glove oil:

I just wouldn't be too flattered by anyone who makes you an "offer" while you were still married. Better to be repulsed than flattered.

After all, that's what my other woman did to me. It was nothing I should've felt flattered about. It's also eventually what I did to her. It's exactly the sort of crap -- bad boundaries -- that got us all into these messes in the first place.

Good boundaries are for everyone.

Indiegirl:

Yes, you have every right if you cannot overcome the betrayal.

I am a bit concerned about these women making offers though. They know you are married and they do that?

I would steer well clear. And I would NOT be flattered.

Yes, but you got the message loud and clear that you were 'desired and wanted'

Be careful is all Im saying.

theroad

I read this after my last post.

Saying: the way to a mans heart is through his stomach.

These women are smart and just baiting the hook. And you can't think clear enough to see this.

itstoughlove:

Be very careful MM - a good woman would never date a man still married.

They are doing it with you, so they will do it to you. You will be in this identical situation again if you go after any of these woman.

americajin:

As I said on your other thread, you seem to act and react very quickly, your emotional state seems to be very volatile. Your wife cheats, and one week later everything is hunky-dory which, of course, is impossible, and you are on your way to the best marriage in the entire world. I'm not very surprised to see this post by you, but I don't think that it's over yet.

You sound like someone that wants to have a revenge affair,it hurt your pride to know your wife screwed another guy and perhaps you questioned yourself and your attractiveness, why would she cheat on you unless you weren't doing it for her anymore, right? So now you find that women come on to you and you feel reassured, but why? There was never anything wrong with you or your attractiveness to a woman, that was not the reason your wife cheated. You want to feel like a woman is attracted to you because you are a desirable guy, not because she is frantic that her husband is going to leave, which leaves you wondering does your wife want to be with you or just want to not lose her means of support or be alone?

But since you don't want to be painted with the same brush as your wife, your only option seems to be divorce, otherwise you would be a cheater also, yes? Do you REALLY want to go the route you're going? Divorce because some women have validated your sense of manliness or self-worth? I can understand perfectly if you would have just said that you couldn't get past her cheating, but then you start that crap about the other women. You want to get divorced? Do it for the right reasons, do it because you can't forgive and forget, which I can understand - read what I recently wrote on oldMittens thread. you don't get divorced because you feel you can feel better because women still want you. You are NOWHERE NEAR ready to have any relationship with another woman, unless of course you just want to use another human being to shore up your sense of self worth.

Do you understand what I am saying here? You're damaged goods, any woman with a lick of sense is going to run for cover. Except those who have an agenda and see an easy mark.

Mirrormirror, you are coming up on what, two months, three months, post D-day? BHs generally cruise in and out of being pissed off for one to two years, you got some reason why you are in such a hurry? Go back and read your thread and then take a good hard look at yourself. You still want to divorce after that, well mazeltov, neither I or anyone else will fault you. i think that you are emotionally volatile and more than a little impulsive, perhaps you ought to drop out of warp speed and really think about what is really right for you in your short and long term future.

indiegirl:

As a BS who is also separated, I couldnt agree more. The vultures in my case (and they are vultures, these women, MM) were offering to help me with DIY/further exposure of my WH yadayadayada.

Most men know what it means when guys go after a betrayed, possibly hurt and angry woman. They arent offering her a compliment, if you know what I mean.

And believe me, women dont offer tea and sympathy to a recently betrayed man without it being a very similar move.


Betrayed spouses are very vulnerable and subject to revenge affairs. Its unlikely you will be in any shape to be around women for some time.


If you want my two cents worth (and I assume that is why you are here) your recovery isnt impossible - its more that it has hit a snag.

What road says about you living in trigger city is very likely true - if you need a 'change of scenery' are you sure your wife doesnt fit into that new scenery? One without triggers?

How much of this decision is based on a desire to check out the 'good women' who have been crosing your path? The decision to divorce shouldnt be based on these ladies.

Are you sure you wont feel differently and miss your wife in a few weeks? The marriage wont be any easier to recover after you have had a revenge affair.

If you are certain about divorce, then great.
But the vulture women and the talk of remarrying your wife after a separation doesnt make it sound like you are at all.

Holdherhand:

MM,

I get it. I do. There is a whole world out there that you gave up for this woman, and she tossed aside your love and commitment like a dirty sock for a romp with some loser.

You certainly have the right to leave her sitting in the mess she created.

I would suggest, however, that you don't do it based on the attention you are getting from other women.

In fact - and maybe you missed this - but you shouldn't have allowed any women close enough to meet your Emotional Needs. Especially while your Love Bank is so critically low.


At one point I told my wife that I wanted to leave, to get out there myself. The insanity of her answer kind of illuminated the insanity of my request; she told me that if I wanted to date, go ahead. But, she wouldn't "allow" me to leave the home. If I wanted to date, I would have to do it living right here with her.



Man, I may have been hurt... I may have been angry... but I was never enough of either to do something so cruel.


Sit on it for a while. See what happens.

armymama:

MM,

Most of us have thought about taking the same steps you are suggesting. I would not have chosen Spain though (Those folks are upset even when the economy is good and worse when it is not). My thoughts were to go to Patagonia and ski.

Dr. Harley suggests that we are capable of falling in love with just about anyone who meets our emotional needs. So..... taking the emotion out of the equation, what are the LOGICAL reasons for separating and divorcing versus working to recover the marriage?

Your wife will always be the mother to your children. For most people it makes financial sense to stay married. There may be others for you and your wife.

What are the logical reasons to divorce? Obviously, there are other women who are interested in you, a still-married man. You would have no problem finding someone else. Are there other reasons? logical ones?

At this point, you have breached one of the MB guidelines about sharing personal and marital information with other women. That is how affairs start. They are admiring you, listening to you and offering to meet your needs. It does feel good.

MM, did you REALLY work the MB plan? And my second question is why would you place more value on a house than on a marriage?

AM

holdherhand:

You regain that feeling by working the program. And, when you are ou of gas, you LET HER LEAD.

Also, "venting" to women, or sharing your feelings, is intimate conversation. Its how affairs begin. These women are filling your ears because there is mutual need meeting going on.

THAT is creating an unrealistic contrast effect because these women have never betrayed you. They also never married you, or had your children, or picked your dirty socks up off the floor.

If you have to vent, vent to men, or here.

Honestly, Spain sounds great. However, it might be better to do this Spain plan WITH YOUR WIFE, and see how things work in a new environment with less triggers and/or distractions.

Its your life.

How do you want to live it?

Reynolds531:

I think every BH out there has thought what you thought, but have you ever stopped to consider that knowing what you know about affairs from being here - that you are DANGEROUS? That you could build an affair in all of twenty minutes because you understand the mechanics? That instead of falling into one like most guys that you could purpose build one?

That makes you different. You have a responsibility to not use what you know for the wrong reasons. Don't use these women, they don't deserve it.

I feel for you I really do. I have been through the same. But don't let it change who you are. Take a year, either stay married or don't. Your call and you have every right.

Just don't trash some woman who never saw it coming.

All the best.

pepperband:

Originally Posted By: happyheart


Also, "venting" to women, or sharing your feelings, is intimate conversation. Its how affairs begin. These women are filling your ears because there is mutual need meeting going on.

THAT is creating an unrealistic contrast effect because these women have never betrayed you. They also never married you, or had your children, or picked your dirty socks up off the floor.


Ditto

Thank you for re expressing my view. I saw this after I posted my last post on this thread.

MM, you should look at your actions and see if you didn't react to what TheRoad(and many others, why you chose him to focus on) said because a part of you saw some truth in there.

According to DrH, a BS is most susceptible to a RA AFTER they discover their WS's A than at any other time in their life. We are always advising a BS to be wary of their weak boundaries. Having Intimate Conversations with members of the opposite sex is bad for ALL. It's a slippery slope and TheRoad did you a great service by keeping you aware, and holding you accountable. I think it would harm you more to ask him to stop posting to you, he might just listen.

Scotland, Calling a cow , a turtle, doesn't make it any less a cow. I have repeatedly stated that I am NOT, repeat, NOT,going to have a revenge affair. These women can make any offers they want, give me all of the food , I can eat, listen to my rants, rub my back, or wash my car, and it will make not a penny's worth of difference to me. All I said was that I was flattered, and that I appreciate the kindness (and some of them did it out of kindness) and it made me feel better about myself when I was at a low point. That is all!! Do some of them have ulterior motives, sure they do. But I'm not 12, I know when I'm being shmoozed.

The Road, youy can quote any and all posts, include the Gettysburg Address and the Magna Carta, but it all will mean nothing. You are projecting your own insecurities on me, and lecturing me on a situation that does not exist. Let me repeat : I HAVE NEVER ENTERTAINED ANY DESIRE TO HAVE A REVENGE AFFAIR. NOT ONCE. NEVER. So can we TRY to get past this?

Yep! See my suggestion of 7:04am!

MM,

I think a new location is a great idea. It creates an environment of looking to the future and making plans together. And it seems as though your wife and daughter are both excited about a move. That is great from a teenage girl.

Just a small caution. Dr. Harley has said that one of the most stressful things a couple can do is house renovations. He does not recommend it for a couple right after an affair. That said, my H and I have been working on a room in our house for more than a year (took out a wall, replaced the windows, tore up the floor, relaid it and refinished it, etc, etc.) It has been a time when we work together toward a common goal. It is nearly finished and looks great. Guess all I am saying is be careful to have joint agreement on everything to do with the house.

AM

Very good point, Armymama. One of the issues that has been bothering me is her submissiveness, and it was a major topic of last night's conversation. We agreed that WE will remodel this building, TOGETHER, as a family, and everybody's input will be respected and incorporated into the design. On the lighter side, there hasn't been this much excitement in this house for 2 years. Both of those ladies of mine are all over the place, deciding what to take, looking at interior design websites and magazines, checking color schemes, and ......everything!! I haven't seen them this animated and together since D-day. I heard them talking, this morning, and walked into the living room and they were laying on the floor with magazines and drawings scattered all around them. I walked back out and cried. I have more hope now than I did a week ago, that's for sure.

Has she read any MB books, or are you two going to do coaching?

She will be less submissive if she understands RH and PoJA.

The best question to ask about everything is, "How would you feel if...?". We use it for everything, to include what to have for dinner, taking out the trash, buying something different at the grocery store.

We really recommend the online program. It gives great structure and accountability. In it, your wife will come to understand that if either spouse saccrifices (agrees to things without really wanting to agree), it will lead to resentment.

I'm glad you all are feeling much better. Don't forget though that lows of the rollercoaster can sneak up on you and snowball if not dealt with right away. At least, that has been our experience.

Edited to add: If you decide to remodel/renovate the kitchen, have a plan to do it expeditiously and execute the plan. Maybe, hire someone to do all or some of it. Prolonged kitchen renovations are a huge drag.

AM

I agree with this suggestion. You get a female coach who can help her with this. She guides your lessons on a weekly basis and you have daily access to Dr Harley. That is an invaluable resource.

Absolutely - nobody is submissive when POJA is being followed. An accountability coach can teach your wife to speak up when shes not enthusiastic about something. Its really important she gets past the whole 'whatever you want, dear' stage. The EPs are non negotiable but everything else must be POJA. She must remember that agreeing to your working long hours unenthusiastically led to her being very unhappy in the past.

And I would like to hear some progress from you on this very important point:



I do get it. Nobody wants to have a revenge affair, least of all you. Nobody is saying you do. Nobody has called you a wayward, either. I dont think you are, and I think you despise affairs. But you have to admit, a bit of attention is nice to ANYONE. It is also a distraction from the job in hand.

Venting to these women, who had ulterior motives remember, did not help your view of your marriage or wife, and was highly inappropriate. Do you think your wife would enthusiastically POJA the continuance of discussions like these?

All we want to hear is: Message received, I can and will do without the chats to these ladies...

Melody, that is a HUGE point. I really don't think she fully understands or follows the POJA. She agrees with me, because she feels that to disagree would trigger me and imply that she is disloyal (which I don't think at all). This and her inability to forgive herself are our major problems , right now. I finally got her to come to this site and really want her to get some coaching froma a female advisor, but she absolutely refuses to come to the discussion board ( she did it a couple of times, but was embarrassed) she told me that she is ashamed and that the posters will think she is a wh*re. I've tried to show her that WS come here all of the time, and most posters aren't judgemental, but she is very reluctant. Maybe , with time she will and encouragement, she can overcome her shyness. BTW she did agree to the female coaching.