So, here is an update. I finally confronted OM at his front door last week. I just had to see what he looked like. Needless to say, I feel very good about myself now and know that what my WW has been telling me was true. It was about not meeting her EN's of IC and affection, not about SF. The A has turned me into a religous gym rat, so he was very uncomfortable with me showing up there. I told him I would be seeing him around as he walked off and hid inside. There was one drawback though, he tried to contact her at work while we were on a cruise she took me on for my b-day. Co-worker told her last night on her first night back at work. She immediately called me when she found out which did really well for my need of OH. She was upset and said she can't wait to move from this place so neither one of us has to be reminded.

How do I explain how hurtful and offensive it is to me when my wife rejects my attempts at having sex?

Have you asked her why she does not want to enjoy SF with you? How does she explain it? Is she feeling like she's not getting enough affection or conversation?

Are you and she spending plenty of UA time together?

A woman needs to feel emotionally connected to her man in order to enjoy SF.

I would remind her this need of yours once-twice a week in a more positive way, like "hon, how about leaving the kid to a nanny for couple of hours tomorrow morning to enjoy sex together?" or something like that. If you keep this thing on the front burner then it cannot be ignored that easily with "I'm tired" all the time.

With kids in a house you need to plan good.

And I would really, really focus on affection part, it seems to me that conversation is well-covered from your part, but how about daily affection?

Do you texted or email her while she is at work? I know I have told dh many times that I love that he does this b/c I can go back and read it as much as I want. I know it sounds silly probably to a guy but in someways I love an email more than a phone call. I love the phone call too but I love to get at least one email a week so I can charish it through out the week. Then dh and I dirty text each other:) It is sooooo much fun! It definitely helps get me in the mood.

Just an idea:)
Tammy

1st, do some reading;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex.html

Focus on her top 3 needs (You know them, right? You've each done the Emotional Needs Questionnaire?).

Make sure that you are getting in 15+ hours per week, or 20-30 if either of you are feeling disconnected.

Lastly, try not to "save" SF for the end of the day. Try to create opportunities during the day when you both have the most energy.

HHH, I've read that link before. Its really her, I've been meeting her needs. The problem comes up when she doesn't want to after working 3 nights in a row, sleeps for eight hours and then just wants to lay around, let me meet her needs of affection and UA, but doesn't have the energy to perform.

Oh yeah, when she says she doesn't feel like it, I don't feel like meeting her needs. If hurts my feelings and I'm actually offended and then she keeps saying don't take it personally, but I just don't want to be very affectionate and I really don't want to be around her so I don't have an angry outburst cause I know she's going to keep talking about why she doesn't feel like it.

IP, you said in one of your responses, I believe, that you were going to get the books and the workbook. There is a very helpful worksheet in the SF section which will assist you both in figuring out each step of the breakdown in this particular need.

The first step in SF is willingness. One of the questions is to describe the conditions that tend to create sexual willingness. Your wife is working three 12-hour shifts, which is taking up a good portion of her energy. Then there is probably still housekeeping, grocery shopping, meals, childcare, etc.

The first challenge is to find out what is hindering each step. The next challenge is to remove those obstacles.

Your requests may be coming across as demands, since you are, in effect, punishing her by withdrawing your affection. It's understandable but not helpful.

Here's from my (a woman's) point of view: my FWH makes sure he is frequently affectionate with me, even when SF is not his immediate goal. We cuddle up on the couch to watch any tv shows or movies. He always says hello and goodby with a kiss. He holds me and touches me when we're sleeping. And so on. (We've done the workbook lessons, so he knows what I like)

The affection has become the environment of our marriage. We enjoy our UA time talking, playing games, cooking and eating meals, hiking. The end result is that when my H makes it clear he's "in the mood," I'm willing...because of the environment of affection in our home. He knows never to ask at bedtime, because by then I'm wiped out...and I don't work 12-hour shifts or have a child at home.

It's okay to schedule SF; Dr. Harley even recommends it. Try negotiating ahead of time two times a week where you both know that is the purpose of the time together. You could call a sitter to take your child for a couple of hours so you can have the house to yourself. The UA worksheet is really helpful for planning all the intimate activities you'd like to do together. You fill in the planned hours AND the activities. So at first, plan on one or two times per week SF at a time your wife agrees with.

Sorry for catching up late on this thread... We burned my W's clothes in the back yard. One positive from it besides getting rid of triggers was that we got to pick new clothes together.

Night shifts are always a problem. I have even heard that no matter how well or long you sleep after a night shift you will still be tired because the organism wants natural darkness for a good sleep. It won't matter if you try to create the darkness artificially, your system will still be lacking a good rest. Have you thought of discussing it - how wise it would be to her to work that way all the time?

That's not true for many people - or maybe my family is just weird.

I worked nights for several years and adjusted just fine.

1. You're DJing her
2. You're Demanding that she meet your needs, and punishing her by withholding affection when she says she doesn't feel like it.
3. You have a recent history of AOs -- how are those going?

No woman is going to feel sexual as long as these lovebusters abound. It doesn't matter how much you meet her EN if you are lovebusting her.

I think the best idea that I have heard here that we haven't tried is to schedule SF. She does seem to do better if we have it planned and it's not late at night, which is really hard to do, but I think I could work it out. The workbook didn't go very well. She just got upset and defensive about some of the things that I thought she could improve on. Her mindset is that she can't be perfect. It erupted into an AO from her, so I've left that alone for now.

It's a really good idea to plan out your minimum of 15 hours UA time every Sunday afternoon and enter the time and date you and she enthusiastically agree to for SF. Start out with just once or twice a week for now and make sure each time is really enjoyable for your W.


The worksheets for SF should only be done at this time individually. It's mostly for each person to understand how their own sexuality works. It CAN be shared, but I would not do so at first. You don't mention the areas where your W could "improve," but if it's in SF, I can see where that could cause defensiveness.

She needs to understand what is it that helps her to be willing to make love with you, what is pleasurable for her. She may more willing when she is not tired, your child is safely asleep, doors locked, after an enjoyable conversation and some affection.

For a woman to be an enthusiastic sexual partner, she needs to have a predictably enjoyable time during SF.

H & I both thought Harley had some great things to say on this matter and have listened to the audio tapes many times to get as much out of it as possible. He says that in order for a man to have lots of SF, his wife needs to enjoy it, and for that to happen, he needs to learn to become a terrific lover.

Your W needs to know what it takes to make her feel great during SF and then she needs to teach it to you.

And no offense meant, because I don't know you or your detailed circumstances. This is just quoting from Harley's talks.

She claims she enjoys it a lot more now, but that she just doesn't have the energy after working three nights in a row. I think the scheduling thing is what we are going to have to try

InternalPain, something I haven't seen mentioned yet: a woman needs two things in order to be enthusiastic about SF. An emotional connection to her husband, and the prospect of enjoyment. As LongWayFromHome says, you need to be a terrific lover. But you also need to be making massive love bank deposits, every single day. For her the biggest source of those is going to be the intimate conversation and affection. So that's three things you've got to become fantastic at, and you can do that using this program.

Dr. Harley says that when your account passes the romantic love threshold in your wife's love bank, it's like you wake up one morning and think "Who is this woman? Is she on hormones?" Something changes. When men are in love, they find their instincts encourage them to meet their wife's needs, and women are the same way. Suddenly they want to be sexual with their husbands.

Do you see the spark of love in your wife's eyes, yet? If not, you still have a little ways to go. Make sure you are getting that time together. Make sure you are not committing any love busters (I know it's frustrating and sucks that she's not providing you the SF you need at this point in time, but do not be demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it. Do not act like she "owes" it to you, or "should" be doing this.); my wife pointed out you sounded like you were having a demanding and judgmental attitude, which is going to keep your LB balance at zero or below. And make sure you are involved in her problems in life. Meet her other needs, be involved in talking to her about what is important to her.

Point well taken Markos, I'll continue trying

Keep trying ... but if it's not working, ask for help! From us, from Dr. Harley, whatever it takes.

Your goal is that sparkle in her eye. Achieve that, and then see what the sex life looks like.

Dr. Harley says that nine times out of ten, when he resolves the relationship problems, the sexual problems disappear.

Yeah, the way my wife and I worked the plan is:

1. Schedule SF.
2. Plan to spend at least 3 hours alone together prior to initiating SF.
3. Initiate and proceed with SF in the way SHE likes best.
4. Be even MORE affectionate toward FWW after SF than before; we men have a tendency to be affectionate when we want sex, and not so much right after. Showing greater affection and meeting her needs even better after sex provides positive reinforcement.