Its been over 6 months since I found out about my wife's sexting EA and the the PA she had most recently. We've been following the guidelines of 15 hours of UA a week and trying to meet each other's EN's. Here's the problem I have. Both of her affairs seemed to revolve around a sexual nature but she doesn't list SF in her top five and she treats sex with me almost like a burden, which is really hurtful to me. She claims she's just tired, but in my mind I want to say " you weren't to tired after a 12 hour shift with him." I don't know what to do, I just can't handle this feeling of inadequacy.
Converstation Affection Financial Support Honesty Domestic Support(Last 2 tied) Family Support
We go to dinner, talk in bed, read a book together and talk about it, talk about moving or look at places to live or go on vacation, usually stuff she wants to do.
Converstation Affection Financial Support Honesty Domestic Support(Last 2 tied) Family Support
This looks like most womens top 5, just move 'em around a bit.
I know you were wondering about SF for her.... I'd really recommend reading what Dr. Harley has to say about this particular topic.
You'll find he covers the need for Communication and Affection as foreplay for a woman ---- especially for a woman, like your wife, that has them listed as their top 2 needs!
I've definitely read the article before in my search for answers. We've done the UA checklist. It just seems that its really hurtful and offensive when she uses the I'm tired excuse. She's not too tired to have her needs met, I feel like I'm just not exciting enough, but she says I'm not the problem, that its her. I feel the situation is hopeless and that I've tried everything recommended.
When your wife agreed to return to your marriage, did she:
1.) Agree to No Contact for life with her affair partner? 2.) Agree to your non-negotiable Extraordinary Precautions? 3.) Agree to rebuilding a romantic passionate marriage with you?
The third one is the one she seems to be floundering in at the moment. If she is saying she's too tired, can you change the time of day?
Dr. Harley recommends scheduling in SF.
Does she find SF enjoyable?
Do you have the workbook? The workbook has some very helpful worksheets for each stage in the SF experience.
What exactly is she saying that is causing the problem for her?
She did agree to no contact for life. She changed jobs and read surviving an affair and knows how detrimental that would be. Did agree to EP's and have the one's Dr. Harley recommends. Did agree to rebuilding a passionate marriage, but is having difficulty meeting my needs without reluctance. She says she does find SF enjoyable, but usually tries to reschedule due to fatigue, then something else comes up that prevents us from having SF the next day, which cause a lot of resentment and hurt feelings on my part
She did agree to no contact for life. She changed jobs and read surviving an affair and knows how detrimental that would be. Did agree to EP's and have the one's Dr. Harley recommends. Did agree to rebuilding a passionate marriage, but is having difficulty meeting my needs without reluctance. She says she does find SF enjoyable, but usually tries to reschedule due to fatigue, then something else comes up that prevents us from having SF the next day, which cause a lot of resentment and hurt feelings on my part
Another recommendation, then, is to schedule your SF during times of day in which she has more energy; earlier in the day, or in the morning.
MB is not about avoiding obstacles to a romantic marriage, but in REMOVING THEM ENTIRELY.
Well, many MANY years ago, when our daughter was three, we always had a pretty much guaranteed lie-in on Saturday mornings. I packed her a little lunch box with munchies and she was allowed to read books and/or watch tv for a while. She was always an early riser and loved this bit of time to herself. And, of course, we enjoyed our time together alone, brief as it sometimes had to be.
Then she always took a little afternoon nap as well, in those days.
Your wife works 12-hour shifts? Is your schedule more or less similar to hers? Do most of her days off coincide with yours?
I don't like late night SF either, because it takes a lot of energy to really get into it. We usually just schedule times throughout the week during the daytime. We both enjoy it more, and although it is sometimes a little hard to just jump start from zero to sixty, we are always happy we took that time while we our energy levels were high.
Keep brainstorming with your wife until you find something that will work.
What was most striking about WW list is what was left out..
Converstation how OM often initiates A Affection OM somewhat supply Financial Support OM almost never supply Honesty OM cannot ever supply Domestic Support(Last 2 tied)OM cannot ever supply Family Support OM cannot ever supply
Admiration OM usually supply sexual fulfullment OM usually supply recreational companionship OM usually supply physical attractiveness OM usually supply
It is almost like WW has compartmentalized her needs into two different persons.
Did you ever get a polygraph for your WW, it could be she is still holding onto secrets which are inhibiting her.
At risk of coming off here in the wrong way, I took an approach that works for me (us). Since my numero uno problem before and especially during her affair was lack of SF and it was part of perhaps 3 dozen pleas for more of it over the years AND since she gave it en masse to om while I complained for the lack of it I now take it when I want it. For lack of a better verb. I don't hurt nor invade her but I take the aggressor role like I never did.
I will not sit around and wait for her to move on me. That resulted in years of dissatisfaction and perhaps had a part in her affair choices. Although her sparking the sf has been a hallmark of our recovery.
No means no. Just hasn't been all too many reasons "no's" for obvious reasons.
My point being maybe your wife would appreciate some of you being unlike the regular you and take the matter into your hands.
If the affair is dead then there is some compensation due you and im a collector. She knows this too. I don't care if it 2am or 2 pm go collect your EN that is as high on your list as it was on mine.
I kind of feel she has compartmentalized, but she says that she hasn't and that I fulfill her needs completely since reading HNHN's. She says she's happier than ever, but due to the sexual nature of her affairs I feel like she's leaving something off of the table. She and her counselor say its due to my insecurities stemming from discovering the affair. I don't know if I agree. I'm going to talk to my counselor about it.
I can think of nothing more emasculating than another guy having one's wife. Maybe a guy having another's wife sexually many, many times like mine.
Its a bitter pill that many us well passed our ddays still chew on daily. It was our sacred property that she gave willingly.
I will say the pain and insecurity diminish over time.
Its clearly the sex that eats at most of us. Particuarly the BH. Im sure BW die a little thinking about their husbands cheating but I could care less about whatever other emotional needs my wife's OM delivered. Its the sex. I rely on the notion that most women cheat because non-sexual emotional needs were being met by some low life form. They didnt do it for the shtupping. Their OM surely did.
This is where a WW who is centered on saving her marriage needs to stepup. She holds the cards on the speed of the recovery and onto a better marriage.
At a certain point, I believe, she must understand its her willingness to lie down with another that is at the core of the pain. Its a jealously. I told my wife that. Im freaking jealous you gave to him when Ive wanted more of it all these years!
My remedy: tons of SF. I try my hardest to give her the things I wasnt as well. Conversation, companionship, nights outs, browsing in malls (are you kidding me?), and lots of UA.
There is little sense in returning to your former sexually frustrating marriage. This is the golden time to renew who BOTH of you were.
I dont do much bedroom talk here but my wife has become something Ive always hoped for there. I know what they did and I told her I need to do more. Its as childlike as imaginable "he got more than me", but I told her I need a long time to reclaim her and she said, "whatever I want, whenever I want". (which was really hot!) Now, Im a realist, the bedroom fire will cool eventually but she knows where its at. She's looking to save our marriage.
Someone once said, 'doing uncommon things leads to uncommon results'. Do something not expected of you. Sure it may be ackward but so was the first time she did OM. Make it like your first time again.
If the affair is dead then there is some compensation due you and im a collector. She knows this too. I don't care if it 2am or 2 pm go collect your EN that is as high on your list as it was on mine.
No! No! No! That's a revenge and anger approach. And Dr. Harley's writings on Just Compensation has absolutely NOTHING nothing in them that remotely discusses collecting on EN's.
The MB Program is not about "collecting" your due EN's... That would be called a Selfish Demand (which borders on abusive) and THAT'S a Love Buster. I've seen a few BS's approach recovery with this attitude and it's led to a more crippled marriage than they had before..
You cannot cherry pick what you want to work on with the MB Program, either you study, implement and work the program as it's designed or you are not working the program at all.... That would be called Plan C (C for confusion).
Mike, I know you and your wife are in complete enthusiastic agreement with your need for SF, but that's very different than the statement I quoted above.....
I kind of feel she has compartmentalized, but she says that she hasn't and that I fulfill her needs completely since reading HNHN's. She says she's happier than ever, but due to the sexual nature of her affairs I feel like she's leaving something off of the table. She and her counselor say its due to my insecurities stemming from discovering the affair. I don't know if I agree. I'm going to talk to my counselor about it.
The best recommendation I'd have in this situation is to loose the counselors and call the Harley's for some real life coaching on recovery from infidelity. They will have you both discussing the importance of meeting each others EN's within a week or two and can move you off the pitiful place you find yourselves now. Most counselors will keep you in a bad spot, milking you both for money and dwelling on the past instead of focusing on the current issues at hand with a plan to resolve them as they arrive. Just my .02
Ok, a lot of questions and comments and I'll try to address them all.
-Yes, she works 12 hour shifts, 3 days a week, always night shift, so I give her a day to recover -I told her to plan, she knows what my expectations are, use the time which is best for her, I can't take the rejection anymore of her telling me no. -I didn't give her a polygraph, my counselor and spiritual advisor strongly recommended not doing that even though she had agreed to it. I don't think it would matter anymore, the conspiring to destroy my life and daugters too knowingly or unknowingly is almost the worst I could imagine. At this point I'm all in on working towards recovery. I told her if she's still lying to me, she can explain that to God when she gets there. I ordered the 5 steps to romantic love tonight and she agreed to do the workbook. I set up an appointment to vent to my counselor about my resentment, since Dr. H clearly says that bringing up affair is a LB. She wore something Wednesday that was a trigger for me and I let it all out. Definitely didn't feel like meeting EN's and I was chock full of angry outbursts. She threw away the outfits.
Are there any men out there that feel they have successfully recoverd from a WW? I just don't know how long I can and will have to endure these feelings of insecurity, doubt, and resentment.
Ok, a lot of questions and comments and I'll try to address them all.
-Yes, she works 12 hour shifts, 3 days a week, always night shift, so I give her a day to recover -I told her to plan, she knows what my expectations are, use the time which is best for her, I can't take the rejection anymore of her telling me no. -I didn't give her a polygraph, my counselor and spiritual advisor strongly recommended not doing that even though she had agreed to it. I don't think it would matter anymore, the conspiring to destroy my life and daugters too knowingly or unknowingly is almost the worst I could imagine. At this point I'm all in on working towards recovery. I told her if she's still lying to me, she can explain that to God when she gets there. I ordered the 5 steps to romantic love tonight and she agreed to do the workbook. I set up an appointment to vent to my counselor about my resentment, since Dr. H clearly says that bringing up affair is a LB. She wore something Wednesday that was a trigger for me and I let it all out. Definitely didn't feel like meeting EN's and I was chock full of angry outbursts. She threw away the outfits.
Thoughts?
Many a BH have requested their WW's get rid of all the clothing their WW wore for the OM. If you knew that WW had articals that she wore for the OM you should not wait to tell her to remove those triggers but tell WW on Dday.
I set up an appointment to vent to my counselor about my resentment, since Dr. H clearly says that bringing up affair is a LB.
Can you define what you think bringing up the A means?
If there are things that you still need from your wife, you need to write it all down, think it through for a day and then present her with the requests, respectfully. This is NOT the same as bringing up the affair.... This is cleaning out the triggers and cleaning out the wounds. It's necessary unless you both want to continue on in crippled fashion.
Please cut yourself a little slack, you are at the 6 month anger stage that the majority of BS's go through....
As the road has said, asking WW to get rid of clothing is a reasonable request. The reason you triggered is due to the fact that you have waited for 6 months before making this request, and instead of it being a respectful request, it happened as a Love Buster.
I set up an appointment to vent to my counselor about my resentment, since Dr. H clearly says that bringing up affair is a LB.
Can you define what you think bringing up the A means?
If there are things that you still need from your wife, you need to write it all down, think it through for a day and then present her with the requests, respectfully. This is NOT the same as bringing up the affair.... This is cleaning out the triggers and cleaning out the wounds. It's necessary unless you both want to continue on in crippled fashion.
Please cut yourself a little slack, you are at the 6 month anger stage that the majority of BS's go through....
As the road has said, asking WW to get rid of clothing is a reasonable request. The reason you triggered is due to the fact that you have waited for 6 months before making this request, and instead of it being a respectful request, it happened as a Love Buster.
Ummm...I had asked her to get rid of anything that would remind me or her of what had happened a week after I found out. She didn't think about the outfits that she had worn. I know my WW says she is happier now than she has ever been in her life, since I've been meeting her EN's. I know my DD is happy. Sometimes though, I doubt what I'm doing, that I didn't make the right decision for myself, that there will always be this dark cloud hanging over my head and I don't know if I can endure it.
I know my WW says she is happier now than she has ever been in her life, since I've been meeting her EN's.
Are you sure your WW wasn't emailed a script from my WW? That's exactly what my W says, it's almost like happy Women no longer need sex. They don't have to use sex as currency so they don't.
that there will always be this dark cloud hanging over my head and I don't know if I can endure it
I think that is because deep down you know you do not have the full truth, and this will keep you from enjoying your marriage at the same level your W does.
The affair was much more physical then she has let on which kills her attraction for you, but she is willing to allow that because her other needs are being met almost perfectly. Your decision not to polygraph will allow this to go on for years.
just an observation I made today. Of the 1.1 million posts on the SAA forum, roughly 25% make it over to recovery. I hope a can see this through.
IP, you can't judge the Recovery forum as showing the percentage that are in recovery.
I have not posted on this forum much, but I am in recovery as of May 2011. I think that there are other who have been in recovery much longer than I (such as MelodyLane, princessmeggy, maritalbliss...lots of others) who have never had threads in Recovery, but they are doing really well in recovery.
just an observation I made today. Of the 1.1 million posts on the SAA forum, roughly 25% make it over to recovery. I hope a can see this through.
Originally Posted by INTERNAL_PAIN
just an observation I made today. Of the 1.1 million posts on the SAA forum, roughly 25% make it over to recovery. I hope a can see this through.
Numbers don't lie Liar's use numbers to lie Soap company's make soap with lye Come to MB and learn about lying
Omission and comission
Thing is you're not lying However that's due to you being confused by the numbers here
There are many forums to post on here Most post on SAA here So most never post threads on the other forums here Most start here Recovery here Divorce here
So just because you see less posts in the recovery that does not mean that most of those that come to MB don't recover here
There is no MB law that says you must use the certain forums for different stages.
just an observation I made today. Of the 1.1 million posts on the SAA forum, roughly 25% make it over to recovery. I hope a can see this through.
Well, my thread is here, BH's thread is on SAA. And we're nowhere near "In Recovery," and quite possibly headed to D, but I can't quite bring myself to move over there yet.
PS - Road, you made me think of my favorite statistics quote:
Originally Posted by Disraeli
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
just an observation I made today. Of the 1.1 million posts on the SAA forum, roughly 25% make it over to recovery. I hope a can see this through.
Well, my thread is here, BH's thread is on SAA. And we're nowhere near "In Recovery," and quite possibly headed to D, but I can't quite bring myself to move over there yet.
PS - Road, you made me think of my favorite statistics quote:
Originally Posted by Disraeli
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Are there any men out there that feel they have successfully recoverd from a WW? I just don't know how long I can and will have to endure these feelings of insecurity, doubt, and resentment.
I seriuosly doubt it. Anyone who says otherwise is not being honest or got amnesia.
I'm here 15 months after D-Day and I can tell you that I still have BIG problems with the sex part of her cheating.
Big problems!
It will probably end our marriage or I will remain unhappy for years until the kids are on their own.
Are there any men out there that feel they have successfully recoverd from a WW? I just don't know how long I can and will have to endure these feelings of insecurity, doubt, and resentment.
There have been more than a few that I've seen recovery their marriages. Mr Wondering, BigKahuna, Mark1952, Mortarman, Etc...
These are just a few success stories that I can think of off the top of my head..... There are many others!
Went to see counselor today without my wife. Went very well and came out feeling better. Talked about my need for SF and how the topic keeps coming up because we're not meeting the goal that we agreed on. She said "you've come to an agreement, the ball is in her court, she knows what you expect and she knows what is at stake. Continue to meet her needs and see what happens. Nobody likes to be told on a weekly basis how poorly they are performing." Another thing that has been bothering me is that I found out last week that I have to deploy for a year next Sept. Talk about bad timing.
Are there any men out there that feel they have successfully recoverd from a WW?
I seriuosly doubt it. Anyone who says otherwise is not being honest or got amnesia.
If you're doing it right, two years after starting a recovery program you really shouldn't find yourself thinking of the affair, and against all reason you'll largely trust your spouse again.
No amnesia here. Clear memory of the pain of her affair. Got through it, don't think about it except when I visit here. She's doing a great job meeting most of my needs. Would drop divorce papers on her without a second thought if I ever found her doing it again, though.
So, here is an update. I finally confronted OM at his front door last week. I just had to see what he looked like. Needless to say, I feel very good about myself now and know that what my WW has been telling me was true. It was about not meeting her EN's of IC and affection, not about SF. The A has turned me into a religous gym rat, so he was very uncomfortable with me showing up there. I told him I would be seeing him around as he walked off and hid inside. There was one drawback though, he tried to contact her at work while we were on a cruise she took me on for my b-day. Co-worker told her last night on her first night back at work. She immediately called me when she found out which did really well for my need of OH. She was upset and said she can't wait to move from this place so neither one of us has to be reminded.
Have you asked her why she does not want to enjoy SF with you? How does she explain it? Is she feeling like she's not getting enough affection or conversation?
Are you and she spending plenty of UA time together?
A woman needs to feel emotionally connected to her man in order to enjoy SF.
How do I explain how hurtful and offensive it is to me when my wife rejects my attempts at having sex?
I would remind her this need of yours once-twice a week in a more positive way, like "hon, how about leaving the kid to a nanny for couple of hours tomorrow morning to enjoy sex together?" or something like that. If you keep this thing on the front burner then it cannot be ignored that easily with "I'm tired" all the time.
With kids in a house you need to plan good.
And I would really, really focus on affection part, it seems to me that conversation is well-covered from your part, but how about daily affection?
Do you texted or email her while she is at work? I know I have told dh many times that I love that he does this b/c I can go back and read it as much as I want. I know it sounds silly probably to a guy but in someways I love an email more than a phone call. I love the phone call too but I love to get at least one email a week so I can charish it through out the week. Then dh and I dirty text each other:) It is sooooo much fun! It definitely helps get me in the mood.
HHH, I've read that link before. Its really her, I've been meeting her needs. The problem comes up when she doesn't want to after working 3 nights in a row, sleeps for eight hours and then just wants to lay around, let me meet her needs of affection and UA, but doesn't have the energy to perform.
Oh yeah, when she says she doesn't feel like it, I don't feel like meeting her needs. If hurts my feelings and I'm actually offended and then she keeps saying don't take it personally, but I just don't want to be very affectionate and I really don't want to be around her so I don't have an angry outburst cause I know she's going to keep talking about why she doesn't feel like it.
IP, you said in one of your responses, I believe, that you were going to get the books and the workbook. There is a very helpful worksheet in the SF section which will assist you both in figuring out each step of the breakdown in this particular need.
The first step in SF is willingness. One of the questions is to describe the conditions that tend to create sexual willingness. Your wife is working three 12-hour shifts, which is taking up a good portion of her energy. Then there is probably still housekeeping, grocery shopping, meals, childcare, etc.
The first challenge is to find out what is hindering each step. The next challenge is to remove those obstacles.
Your requests may be coming across as demands, since you are, in effect, punishing her by withdrawing your affection. It's understandable but not helpful.
Here's from my (a woman's) point of view: my FWH makes sure he is frequently affectionate with me, even when SF is not his immediate goal. We cuddle up on the couch to watch any tv shows or movies. He always says hello and goodby with a kiss. He holds me and touches me when we're sleeping. And so on. (We've done the workbook lessons, so he knows what I like)
The affection has become the environment of our marriage. We enjoy our UA time talking, playing games, cooking and eating meals, hiking. The end result is that when my H makes it clear he's "in the mood," I'm willing...because of the environment of affection in our home. He knows never to ask at bedtime, because by then I'm wiped out...and I don't work 12-hour shifts or have a child at home.
It's okay to schedule SF; Dr. Harley even recommends it. Try negotiating ahead of time two times a week where you both know that is the purpose of the time together. You could call a sitter to take your child for a couple of hours so you can have the house to yourself. The UA worksheet is really helpful for planning all the intimate activities you'd like to do together. You fill in the planned hours AND the activities. So at first, plan on one or two times per week SF at a time your wife agrees with.
Ok, a lot of questions and comments and I'll try to address them all.
-Yes, she works 12 hour shifts, 3 days a week, always night shift, so I give her a day to recover -I told her to plan, she knows what my expectations are, use the time which is best for her, I can't take the rejection anymore of her telling me no. -I didn't give her a polygraph, my counselor and spiritual advisor strongly recommended not doing that even though she had agreed to it. I don't think it would matter anymore, the conspiring to destroy my life and daugters too knowingly or unknowingly is almost the worst I could imagine. At this point I'm all in on working towards recovery. I told her if she's still lying to me, she can explain that to God when she gets there. I ordered the 5 steps to romantic love tonight and she agreed to do the workbook. I set up an appointment to vent to my counselor about my resentment, since Dr. H clearly says that bringing up affair is a LB. She wore something Wednesday that was a trigger for me and I let it all out. Definitely didn't feel like meeting EN's and I was chock full of angry outbursts. She threw away the outfits.
Thoughts?
Many a BH have requested their WW's get rid of all the clothing their WW wore for the OM. If you knew that WW had articals that she wore for the OM you should not wait to tell her to remove those triggers but tell WW on Dday.
Sorry for catching up late on this thread... We burned my W's clothes in the back yard. One positive from it besides getting rid of triggers was that we got to pick new clothes together.
Its really her, I've been meeting her needs. The problem comes up when she doesn't want to after working 3 nights in a row, sleeps for eight hours and then just wants to lay around, let me meet her needs of affection and UA, but doesn't have the energy to perform.
Night shifts are always a problem. I have even heard that no matter how well or long you sleep after a night shift you will still be tired because the organism wants natural darkness for a good sleep. It won't matter if you try to create the darkness artificially, your system will still be lacking a good rest. Have you thought of discussing it - how wise it would be to her to work that way all the time?
Night shifts are always a problem. I have even heard that no matter how well or long you sleep after a night shift you will still be tired because the organism wants natural darkness for a good sleep. It won't matter if you try to create the darkness artificially, your system will still be lacking a good rest. Have you thought of discussing it - how wise it would be to her to work that way all the time?
That's not true for many people - or maybe my family is just weird.
I worked nights for several years and adjusted just fine.
HHH, I've read that link before. Its really her, I've been meeting her needs. The problem comes up when she doesn't want to after working 3 nights in a row, sleeps for eight hours and then just wants to lay around, let me meet her needs of affection and UA, but doesn't have the energy to perform.
1. You're DJing her 2. You're Demanding that she meet your needs, and punishing her by withholding affection when she says she doesn't feel like it. 3. You have a recent history of AOs -- how are those going?
No woman is going to feel sexual as long as these lovebusters abound. It doesn't matter how much you meet her EN if you are lovebusting her.
I think the best idea that I have heard here that we haven't tried is to schedule SF. She does seem to do better if we have it planned and it's not late at night, which is really hard to do, but I think I could work it out. The workbook didn't go very well. She just got upset and defensive about some of the things that I thought she could improve on. Her mindset is that she can't be perfect. It erupted into an AO from her, so I've left that alone for now.
I think the best idea that I have heard here that we haven't tried is to schedule SF. She does seem to do better if we have it planned and it's not late at night, which is really hard to do, but I think I could work it out.
It's a really good idea to plan out your minimum of 15 hours UA time every Sunday afternoon and enter the time and date you and she enthusiastically agree to for SF. Start out with just once or twice a week for now and make sure each time is really enjoyable for your W.
Originally Posted by INTERNAL_PAIN
The workbook didn't go very well. She just got upset and defensive about some of the things that I thought she could improve on. Her mindset is that she can't be perfect. It erupted into an AO from her, so I've left that alone for now.
The worksheets for SF should only be done at this time individually. It's mostly for each person to understand how their own sexuality works. It CAN be shared, but I would not do so at first. You don't mention the areas where your W could "improve," but if it's in SF, I can see where that could cause defensiveness.
She needs to understand what is it that helps her to be willing to make love with you, what is pleasurable for her. She may more willing when she is not tired, your child is safely asleep, doors locked, after an enjoyable conversation and some affection.
For a woman to be an enthusiastic sexual partner, she needs to have a predictably enjoyable time during SF.
H & I both thought Harley had some great things to say on this matter and have listened to the audio tapes many times to get as much out of it as possible. He says that in order for a man to have lots of SF, his wife needs to enjoy it, and for that to happen, he needs to learn to become a terrific lover.
Your W needs to know what it takes to make her feel great during SF and then she needs to teach it to you.
And no offense meant, because I don't know you or your detailed circumstances. This is just quoting from Harley's talks.
She claims she enjoys it a lot more now, but that she just doesn't have the energy after working three nights in a row. I think the scheduling thing is what we are going to have to try
InternalPain, something I haven't seen mentioned yet: a woman needs two things in order to be enthusiastic about SF. An emotional connection to her husband, and the prospect of enjoyment. As LongWayFromHome says, you need to be a terrific lover. But you also need to be making massive love bank deposits, every single day. For her the biggest source of those is going to be the intimate conversation and affection. So that's three things you've got to become fantastic at, and you can do that using this program.
Dr. Harley says that when your account passes the romantic love threshold in your wife's love bank, it's like you wake up one morning and think "Who is this woman? Is she on hormones?" Something changes. When men are in love, they find their instincts encourage them to meet their wife's needs, and women are the same way. Suddenly they want to be sexual with their husbands.
Do you see the spark of love in your wife's eyes, yet? If not, you still have a little ways to go. Make sure you are getting that time together. Make sure you are not committing any love busters (I know it's frustrating and sucks that she's not providing you the SF you need at this point in time, but do not be demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it. Do not act like she "owes" it to you, or "should" be doing this.); my wife pointed out you sounded like you were having a demanding and judgmental attitude, which is going to keep your LB balance at zero or below. And make sure you are involved in her problems in life. Meet her other needs, be involved in talking to her about what is important to her.
She claims she enjoys it a lot more now, but that she just doesn't have the energy after working three nights in a row. I think the scheduling thing is what we are going to have to try
Yeah, the way my wife and I worked the plan is:
1. Schedule SF. 2. Plan to spend at least 3 hours alone together prior to initiating SF. 3. Initiate and proceed with SF in the way SHE likes best. 4. Be even MORE affectionate toward FWW after SF than before; we men have a tendency to be affectionate when we want sex, and not so much right after. Showing greater affection and meeting her needs even better after sex provides positive reinforcement.
Yeah, I'm really struggling this week to want to meet her needs. I just don't feel like doing it. I have to continually remind myself that in the end it will be worth it, but I guess I'm just at the bottom of a hill on that roller coaster.
Hi .. I am just catching up on your thread .. I noticed you said several times your wife has no energy. I mention this becasue My wife had not much energy aswell .. Now my wife didnt have an affair to the extent of a PA but her energy levels were really shot with all the responsibilities of life that succumbed her.
I did some reasearch on some natural products and I found one called Maca Root. It does EVERYTHING is says it does .. it increases energy .. libido .. balances horomones .. etc. Do some research on your own about it and try it out. You may find the results surprisingly effective. Maca takes about 3-5 days of full dose to take effect. And MAN does it work like a charm for my wife and I. WE can take our dose .. and the results are that we have energy left at the end of the day after kids are in bed and chores are done for our UA time. Its great! My wife would contest to it too .. and she was even more skeptical than I was.
I just saw you say your wife likes affection afterwards. Not sure if this well help but I LOVE LOVE LOVE for my dh to WANT me to lay my head on his chest while he lightly strokes my back with his finger tips. It feels light and sweet and makes me feel so good. I will also say it help orgasism last even longer as a woman. Hopefully that is not too much info for this board LOL.
She does like affection and she doesn't feel like I short change her in that department. She says she would like a little more conversation, but I just run out of things to say. I'm just not that chatty and never have been. I do try to hang out with her and ask questions which will usually keep the conversation going, but I'm not one of those people that can talk about nothing. Things were better today, I didn't feel as down, but our work schedules are destroying any UA time that we had scheduled for this week. I can't wait for the weekend.
M3M, never really has a problem with climax for her, but we do some of that stuff you talked about now more than in the past.
We sometimes run out of conversation ideas, too, IP. We live on a small island and live a pretty quiet life, for the most part. After H talks a bit about work and we catch up, discuss plans and some other things, we do occasionally have a lull...
SO...
We pull out a list of, believe it or not, casual conversation starters.
Here's a few of the "starters." We each take a turn.
What kind of job do you want to have in 20 years? What would you like to do to become famous? If you could have been someone in history, who would you have been? What TV or movie star would you like to invite to your party?
We have two pages of these little jump start questions for those times, and they're kind of fun.
So, it's been a couple of months now and things aren't working for me. I feel like giving up. I asked her to move out today. I can't overcome these feelings of sexual inadequacy. I can't deal with her occasional negative responses about SF. I just want to feel normal again, like there is nothing wrong with me and be in a relationship where I don't always wonder if I'm pleasing my partner. She said she would move out, but we'll see.
"Never make a decision today without thinking about tomorrow."
Have you. Your posts seem to show you are only hung up on the past and worrying.
Well you know you're are the roller coaster ride?
Do you know that at the 6 month mark after dday the anger phase starts.
And lasts for about 6 months?
Do you know that we say recovery takes 2 to 5 years and you are not even 1 year post day?
There is a reason why we say you should wait before you make any important decisions. How about waiting for the anger phase to end?
Then while you are meeting your WW needs keep your mouth shut.
No WW wants to be told/complained to why how SF with the OM was better for her. Usually WW say that SF was good because their judgement is clouded by the adrenaline rush of the forbidden, of being bad, and no one catching her.
Plus with WW work and everything else she is dead tired which makes her want to put off SF, let alone do it enthusiastically because you're always turning SF into a three some with the OM's memories for WW.
How often do you talk about the PA with WW?
Did WW trickle truth you?
Is all your questions answered?
Then time to stop the talking on daily or even weekly basis. I can understand if something never came up before or all of a sudden something you were told does not make sense but these questions need to be few and far between with no response from you except for saying thank you for clearing that.
WW's have to heal as well. But you keep picking at her scab constantly.
Stop acting like you're the only one this has happened to.
So, it's been a couple of months now and things aren't working for me. I feel like giving up. I asked her to move out today. I can't overcome these feelings of sexual inadequacy. I can't deal with her occasional negative responses about SF.
Are those negative responses a criticism of something you are doing and she's not phrasing it very well? For example, "I don't like it when you....." could be easily changed to "I like it when....."
Originally Posted by INTERNAL_PAIN
I just want to feel normal again, like there is nothing wrong with me and be in a relationship where I don't always wonder if I'm pleasing my partner. She said she would move out, but we'll see.
Do you ask her for her ideas on how you can please her/what she wants during SF?
Your spouse's betrayal hurts deeply, but before your wife moves out and your little daughter's family becomes another statistic, why not consider calling Dr. Harley or even calling their counseling center for a couple of sessions?
Have you. Your posts seem to show you are only hung up on the past and worrying. -YES, I do get triggered when she isn't focused on me during UA time or sexual fulfillment.
Well you know you're are the roller coaster ride? YES, i harbor a lot of resentment. While I was serving my country for the last three years overseas, my wife was using me while shopping for a new husband.
Do you know that at the 6 month mark after dday the anger phase starts. -No And lasts for about 6 months? NO
Do you know that we say recovery takes 2 to 5 years and you are not even 1 year post day? 5 years is a long time
There is a reason why we say you should wait before you make any important decisions. How about waiting for the anger phase to end? I'm trying but I'm losing my patience, I thought this emotional roller coaster would subside by now.
Then while you are meeting your WW needs keep your mouth shut. -You worded this statement poorly, it makes me wanna have an angry outburst towards you. I'll hold it in.
No WW wants to be told/complained to why how SF with the OM was better for her. Usually WW say that SF was good because their judgement is clouded by the adrenaline rush of the forbidden, of being bad, and no one catching her. -well, do you think that's what she told me?
Plus with WW work and everything else she is dead tired which makes her want to put off SF, let alone do it enthusiastically because you're always turning SF into a three some with the OM's memories for WW. -I'm sorry, I thought eight hours of sleep a day are enough for adults. I've been getting by on 4-5 a night just fine.
How often do you talk about the PA with WW? Every time she makes sex seem like a burden.
Did WW trickle truth you? -yes
Is all your questions answered? -no, but apparently talking about affair is counter productive according to Dr. H
Then time to stop the talking on daily or even weekly basis. I can understand if something never came up before or all of a sudden something you were told does not make sense but these questions need to be few and far between with no response from you except for saying thank you for clearing that.
WW's have to heal as well. But you keep picking at her scab constantly. - heal from what? Getting all their needs met and then being told playtime is over?
Stop acting like you're the only one this has happened to. ARE YOU F@$KING SERIOUS! You sound like a WH.
We usually do things during SF that is pleasing to her ninety percent of the time. I've read Dr. H's article on lack of desire in wives, so I'm willing to do the positions and foreplay that she enjoys most. I think the real issue is the lack of planning, which we did two weeks ago and it worked well, but last week we only had two days for the opportunity due to Christmas and she made statements both times that made me feel she just had no interest in it, which does not make it fulfilling at all and makes massive love bank withdrawals for me. We are going to continue to try and plan, but if that doesn't work, she agreed to use our tax return for counseling with the Harley's.
I agree that once all of your questions have been answered then the affair questions should end, but you still have been given a lame story about how it was only oral sex. I don't know how you can see yourself 10 years from now with doubt remaining.
I only wish I had found this place 20+ years ago, I would have gotten the full truth or left, now with all these years passed it is so much more difficult.
We usually do things during SF that is pleasing to her ninety percent of the time. I've read Dr. H's article on lack of desire in wives, so I'm willing to do the positions and foreplay that she enjoys most.
Okay, that's good. For whomever the need is less, the fulfilling of that need should be all about person desiring it less.
Originally Posted by INTERNAL_PAIN
I think the real issue is the lack of planning, which we did two weeks ago and it worked well, but last week we only had two days for the opportunity due to Christmas and she made statements both times that made me feel she just had no interest in it, which does not make it fulfilling at all and makes massive love bank withdrawals for me. We are going to continue to try and plan, but if that doesn't work, she agreed to use our tax return for counseling with the Harley's.
Scheduling time during the holidays is a challenge for many married couples; however, the undivided attention is needed as badly as ever. The time needs to scheduled, put on the calendar and the date kept.
Why is it your wife is not interested? Is she tired? It sounds like the willingness for SF is still a problem for your wife.
It is often difficult for a woman to go from work mode in the office to work mode at home to switching gears to SF.
It's tough that the way humans are built (in general) is that men have a constant building up of the need for SF--a drive for it. But women don't, not in the same way. Many include it in their top 10, but not necessarily in their top 5, because of that lack of drive/craving for it.
Would your wife consider cutting back on her hours so she's not as tired? She could see a doctor and find out if she's tired due to a medical reason, such as anemia. Some doctors will prescribe small doses of testosterone to women to help build up the sex drive a bit. It works well for some, not so well for others, but it's worth asking about.
Would she considering posting here? The board is forthright but kind to FWWs. If she is still foggy, she will be called out, but folks here really want to help.
Up in the Marriage Builders 101 board, there was a recent thread about a woman with several children and a fulltime job who never wanted SF, and she's being helped.
My final question is: would you say that your wife is in love with you?
Do you know that we say recovery takes 2 to 5 years and you are not even 1 year post day?
I'm going to offer my usual caveat to this kind of statistic. The typical number Dr. Harley uses is "two years" for recovery. The main reason is because after two years of time spent working MarriageBuilders together, your relationship should be better than it has ever been. If it is not better than it has ever been, then it's probably time to identify the issues that keep you from making the marriage better than it has ever been, and separate with the intent of divorce if they cannot be remedied.
After two years, are you still going to have triggers? Sure, from time to time. It should be rare, but it may happen. Are you occasionally going to have down days as a result of your spouse's infidelity? Yep, that's going to happen, too.
But it's a matter of degree. I still have down days from time to time when I think of the death of various loved ones who've been gone for years. Feeling a little blue is different from the intense pain of discovering your spouse's infidelity in scale, not type.
So although "five years" is bandied about a lot, realize that in practice it means "two years": within two years from getting on board with recovery together, you'll either be in love with your spouse again and your marriage will be better than it ever has been, or you'll know it's time to hang up the cleats and file for divorce.
At this point it doesn't really matter anymore. Is there doubt.....yeah, but I think about it less and less the harder she tries to meet my needs. I suspect she did have sex, she swears to God that she didn't. If she told me she did would it change my desire to to make the marriage work? Proly not. It would hurt that she lied for so long, but thats between her and God come judgement day. She wants my forgiveness and i have given it when its not deserved. My daughter needs a full time father to help develop her moral compass, I seriously doubt my wife could do it alone and work. Am I just staying for my daughter, hell yes, but I dont want a loveless marriage.
LWFH,
I'll have to ask if she will post here. She's not very open to talking about the affair, even with her counselor. I personally think her low energy levels are due to a lack of exercise. She has always been a naturally low body fat petite build until she had a baby and she recently had elevated cholesterol levels, but she has lacked motivation to start working out. I've been trying to do as much of the household chores to get rid of any feelings of not enough time.
Do I think she's in love with me? I would say resoundingly yes, but my occasional lapses when I start thinking about the affair is a LB for her. She says she can see it on my face every time I think about it, but she asks so I tell her. I'm just being honest. This week has started off good. Had some good IC yesterday and SF today before daughter got home. Both planned. We'll see how the rest of the week goes.
Do you know that we say recovery takes 2 to 5 years and you are not even 1 year post day?
I'm going to offer my usual caveat to this kind of statistic. The typical number Dr. Harley uses is "two years" for recovery. The main reason is because after two years of time spent working MarriageBuilders together, your relationship should be better than it has ever been. If it is not better than it has ever been, then it's probably time to identify the issues that keep you from making the marriage better than it has ever been, and separate with the intent of divorce if they cannot be remedied.
After two years, are you still going to have triggers? Sure, from time to time. It should be rare, but it may happen. Are you occasionally going to have down days as a result of your spouse's infidelity? Yep, that's going to happen, too.
But it's a matter of degree. I still have down days from time to time when I think of the death of various loved ones who've been gone for years. Feeling a little blue is different from the intense pain of discovering your spouse's infidelity in scale, not type.
So although "five years" is bandied about a lot, realize that in practice it means "two years": within two years from getting on board with recovery together, you'll either be in love with your spouse again and your marriage will be better than it ever has been, or you'll know it's time to hang up the cleats and file for divorce.
Over the years, and I read here for many years before I joined. In that time I have seen poster's say that they knew they were on the road to recovery at the two year mark but recovery took more time to complete.
Everyone is different. Sometimes anger phase, sometimes no, HB, no HB, SF never stopped, it took over a year to get SF worked out.
I just read your thread. I know what you are feeling. I am at 6 months since my D-Day and my WW still refuses SF. She says she loves me, does nice things for me, we talk, text, shop and a lot more.....just no SF. My WW has some aversion, some self confidence issues and uses the tired excuse so much I'm tired of hearing it.
Hang in there. My anger and resentment are increasing with every day. I Coe here for encouragement. Know that you are not alone. Keep posting, keep working.
HB is Hysterical Bonding, the phenomenon in which the couple, after discovering the adultery, attempt to make a strong emotional/sexual bond through SF, often daily for months, even a couple of times a day.
Originally Posted by INTERNAL_PAIN
She wants my forgiveness and i have given it when its not deserved.
A gentle reminder that in MB forgiveness is earned. The spouse who committed adultery earns forgiveness by helping to build a marriage that is better than it was before.
There is an element of forgiveness, because there is really no way to ever compensate for the pain caused by infidelity. But the emphasis of MB is on Just Compensation, as well as Extraordinary Precautions so an affair never occurs again.
Originally Posted by INTERNAL_PAIN
I'll have to ask if she will post here. She's not very open to talking about the affair, even with her counselor.
My FWH doesn't post to any forums, and he would only do so on MB if I had insisted. But then it would be reluctant agreement. He hates thinking about what he did, because, as he says, it was so foolish and caused so much pain that he wants to do all he can to put it behind him. Your wife may feel the same way. I would have strongly requested him to post only if I suspected some BS on his part. The folks on this forum can see the fog from a mile away.
Originally Posted by INTERNAL_PAIN
...my occasional lapses when I start thinking about the affair is a LB for her. She says she can see it on my face every time I think about it, but she asks so I tell her. I'm just being honest.
There was a recent radio clip in which Dr. H. discussed this. He said we should NOT be bringing up the affair at all, even the triggers. If we have bad memories rising up that cause us to feel down, it is okay to say "I feel a little down," and to ask for a hug. But even if the spouse asks if it's about the affair, we should repeat, "I'm just feeling a little down."
Dr. H. said he understands this goes against the Policy of Radical Honesty, but he stands by this when it comes to talking about the A, because its effect on the married couple is most often extremely negative.
Believe me, I KNOW this is hard to do. The problem is that the A will never go away, no matter how hard the couple works at it. Talking about the triggers brings the past into the present, much like reminiscing about wonderful things from the past causes happiness when we talk about them.
This has been for me a moment by moment habit to build. I was really lousy at this for much of the first year. To not even mention that I was having a down moment due to HIS adultery seemed cruel to me. How is a person supposed to swallow it? But talking about it ends up serving no purpose except to make us all feel terrible.
As we begin to believe our FWS in their effort to earn Just Compensation, it does become easier to push away the bad thoughts.
Originally Posted by INTERNAL_PAIN
This week has started off good. Had some good IC yesterday and SF today before daughter got home. Both planned. We'll see how the rest of the week goes.
That's great, IP. Someone here quotes that recovery is a marathon, not a sprint. It's little successes built up every day.
And lastly, you might be right about the lack of exercise making your W feel tired. Maybe there's a way you two can get out for a bike ride or a good walk most days. We had a child seat for our bike and used to take our daughter out. We all loved the time outdoors.
You make some good points. I'm going to show her my thread tonight and see if she'll post. I do waiver back and forth all the time about staying or leaving, I just keep telling myself to give it time. I'm going to try my best not to bring it up anymore after today. I left her a note this morning that I wanted her to pick a time to talk about the first affair, that I still feel in the dark about that and that I would close the door on it. This whole thing is hard. I'm young, and its hard to fight the desire to start over.
Two years IP - TWO YEARS. Keep your EYE on the Prize.
In April you will be on ONE Year -- so much will be different by then.
Keep up the great work. Your DD is watching every move you make, and will select a husband identical to you. Show her that fighting for what is right and her family is your #1 priority.
If you marriage goes down, then you will know your DD knows a "Good Man" is a fighter, and does everything he can for his family.
I do waiver back and forth all the time about staying or leaving, I just keep telling myself to give it time.
I think many of us waiver quite a bit back and forth the first couple of years into recovery. Tough said it, though, "Keep your eye on the prize."
Leaving is a lot less complicated when no children are involved. Since you have a little child, you probably don't want her subjected to boyfriends and not seeing you every day. People often like to say that kids are resilient and get over divorce, but it's traumatic for them to have their families torn apart.
Over time, as your W makes progress in meeting your needs and in earning your forgiveness by helping to make your marriage better than ever, this wavering will stop.
Originally Posted by INTERNAL_PAIN
I left her a note this morning that I wanted her to pick a time to talk about the first affair, that I still feel in the dark about that and that I would close the door on it.
Yes, you need to have all your questions answered on the affairs and then never bring it up again.(A minute by minute, hour by hour discipline....)
Have you two yet discussed and eliminated the conditions that led to the affairs? There are no excuses for an affair, but there are reasons.
Was it marital neglect, love busters, separation, the ability to maintain a secret second life? Does she have male friends? Does she have/keep Extraordinary Precautions? My H had to create a whole new way of relating to women; he always had a lot of women friends, but now he has NONE.
You mentioned earlier that you are scheduled for deployment in Sept 2012. Is this still on the books to happen? Will you be moving before then? Did both of the affairs happen while you were away?
If you deploy again, will you come up with solutions on how to handle the separation in a way as to avoid an affair?
We have discussed the conditions that led to it. Primarily neglect due her not meeting my needs, she had also used a lot of AO's on me, no O&H, and had poor boundaries with guy friends. Separation led to a secret second life that went unchecked while I was gone. After first affair went undiscovered the second just seemed like another step up. We have implemented all boundaries to prevent another affair...for either of us. I haven't had one, but feel really vulnerable to female attention. I due have to deploy, not as long now, but the date has moved up to the end of April. We're going to use skype to try and meet her needs. We are unsure about what to do about mine other than try to create as many good strong memories as possible to push the bad ones out of the way. I continue to monitor her phone. I don't check it as frequently, but I watch it and I'll have that same ability while I'm deployed. We won't be moving though, I'm going unaccompanied.
IP - I just went through a deployed husband committing adultery with his colleague and now leaving me for her.
My thought is to get your commander involved and to have his wife involved for your wife. She needs to surround herself with people who will support her during deployment.
I would make your commander and/or other trusted colleagues who will stick with you and support you.
Also, after reading so much on the forums I'm starting to get worried about my wife breaking contact while I'm gone. I don't know how to keep her accountable. How long are GPS batteries good for?
Just FYI, I use mobistealth on my FWW's phone. It has a lot of features including logging texts, calls, contact lists, emails, spy calls, web browsing, as well as a gps tracker. It has helped me a TON. Luckily nothing "juicy" has come of it, but it gives me lots of peace of mine. You just buy a subscription online and then go online on her phone and activate the software. That's the tough part but if you can get to her phone for 5-10 minutes without her around you can do it. I know it seems really shady, but you have to do what you have to do. At least that way you know if she's being honest with you. I only wish I had it installed while I was away.
This week has gone exceptionally well after planning. We fell short of the fifteen hours, but we were close. I originally told her I would stay for a year and make my decision then. Last night I told her I would give it another year to see how the deployment went and if she stayed consistent with her behavior. She is starting to see how well the program works when both of us try.
Being on the roller coaster is often exhausting and unpredictable. Occasionally, a bit more than a year following D-Day for us, I still have to use my mind to logically remind myself where we are today. It's especially hard the first year.
Ok, I went and worked out this morning. Finally I pulled myself back together. Had to come home early though to watch my daughter. She couldn't go to preschool today because she had a fever and the wife had to work last nite. Going to try and give DD some UA time to keep my mind occupied.
I wanted to pop back in and recommend another enjoyable activity that also counts in some ways for conversation...if it's something you both enjoy doing.
Playing table-type games! We play several games that are simple enough to take less than an hour to play yet employ enough strategy to keep it interesting. I'm the one who likes short and sweet, and H likes the strategy and complexity.
The way it works in our household is we discuss a new game H is interested in. We order the game and he learns the rules. When the game arrives, he then teaches me the rules. It's kind of nice, because as he teaches me, he might have to come just behind me and lean over to look at my cards, which is nice. It feels like something close to affection when he does that. We play across from each other and look at each other frequently.
Playing these games together gives us an environment in which we can enjoy conversation AND fun at the same time.
Good for you for getting to the gym to work out and to take care of your little one.
Cribbage Rummy Tile Quidler Scrabble Two-player card games like rummy, canasta Eurogames: Settlers of Cataan Ticket to Ride Dominion Carcassonne
Now, my H really really likes games, especially some very complicated ones that I was not interested in playing. The above games are simple enough to learn but strategic enough for him.
So, the week went pretty well. We celebrated my wife's thirtieth birthday. Had a discussion finally about affair no.1 which answered a lot of questions for me, as i was in the dark about( didn't discover this one on my own). WW finally agreed to no contact letter to both OM which is big for me since one lives within 20 min from us. Definitely onboard with moving as soon as we can afford it. It seems like we are really moving forward fast now.
Ok, I've got a big question that I think I know the answer to, but I just don't know if I want to do it. My wife says that she wants me to finish my contract then get out of the service, but at that point I would only have 3 years left until reaching my 20year retirement age. She said it was up to me, but she would like me to never leave again. What is the right answer in today's world of financial instability?
Well, the Policy of Joint Agreement would be critical here. IMO, your marriage is more important than your career. It is difficult to sustain romantic love from afar, especially more so after infidelity.
Yeah, things are going really well. Sometimes I feel really happy and then I catch myself and think "don't set yourself up again for another let down" or when is she planning on leaving me. I hope these are just part of the roller coaster.
Yes, all part of the roller coaster. The ride does smooth out after a while as the marriage becomes better.
I asked my former military H about your question regarding getting out three years before retirement. Yeesh. He said that was a tough one.
Of course, the PoJA is always front and center. But I would also consider the questions:
1.) Is your wife wishing you would end the military life, or is it more about the separations?
2.) If it's about the separations, could you speak with someone higher up about changing your job so that you get into one that doesn't have you deploying?
3.) With your next deployment imminent, have you and your W brainstormed about ways you can keep in touch and keep each other accountable?
You could email Dr. H. and see if you can get on his radio show. He and Joyce are really good at helping people brainstorm career ideas. He's been working with the military regarding the devastating effects of deployment and adultery on marriages.
1. Its more about the long separations. this one coming up is short and we'll have the ability to skype. Don't think it will be an issue for her, but more so for me. We are both concerned that I may come back feeling unattached.
2. Changing jobs for my position is an impossibility. They're already pushed back my deployment and shortened it.
3. Accountability I don't think is going to be that hard for me. I've got spyware on her phone that she is unaware of and I'm going to put a remote keylogger on before I leave.
I think I will email Dr. H and see about getting on the show. It comes and goes in waves.
I guess this is to the vets... Is it always necessary to have the WS take a lie detector test? Things seem to be going well for our marriage now and I don't want to set things back, especially since her counselor and mine encouraged her not to.
I guess this is to the vets... Is it always necessary to have the WS take a lie detector test?
That's not part of the published books, but it's a recommendation Dr. Harley and his fellow MarriageBuilders coaching team have made from time to time in some circumstances. The real question is: do you feel your spouse is still lying to you? Are they being anything less than forthcoming when you have difficult questions about the affair that have not yet been answered?
If so, you may want the lie detector test to force their hand. The goal is typically to get them to admit what they are hiding BEFORE the detector test. It's often a good cure for trickle-truth.
On the other hand, there is another approach that works well: help your spouse fall back in love with you, and start living the policy of Radical Honesty with each other. If you help each other be completely honest, focusing particularly on those things that either one of you are ashamed about, you can also overcome those lingering feelings of wondering if there's more to tell.
Based on the stories I've read here over the years, I'm going to offer an opinion that this kind of recommendation differs between men and women.
From a wayward husband, you are looking for full remorse prior to recovery. Betrayed wives typically must insist on a pretty high bar before allowing such a husband back in their lives. The basic reason Dr. Harley gives for this is that women's immune systems suffer more under the stress of infidelity than those of males. Women tend to get ill from immune system weakness due to the strain of infidelity on the part of their spouses if they deal with it very long. It's primary the reason he advocates a very short Plan A for most women. So a polygraph as a prerequisite for recovery tends to be more effective with men.
But a wayward wife, on the other hand, is a different person entirely. Typically near the start of recovery she doesn't love her spouse, doesn't feel attached to him, and blames him for her affair. Her brain is wired differently from a man's. Jumping through hoops to win her betrayed spouse back isn't something that comes naturally. From her perspective, why should she have to prove herself to the man who's fault it was that she had the affair in the first place?
I'm not stating this is the way it should be, or the way it is for everybody, but the way it commonly is in most cases. Including mine.
So your real question is -- or should be -- "How do I prevent a false recovery with my wayward spouse?"
That doesn't require a polygraph. What it requires is exceptional Extraordinary Precautions. What would it take to reassure you she isn't straying again?
At least for my wife & me, what it takes is accountability. I'm aware of what she should be doing each day, as she is of my schedule. We text & talk throughout the day. We meet our 15+ hours of undivided attention together every week in addition to this. We also meet our goal of 15+ hours of family time every week.
With that kind of accountability and unified lifestyle, it's extremely difficult to hide a resurgence of the affair.
Considering that your WW was in an affair for 3 out of 10 years of your marriage, and the fact that you are even asking, is a strong yes. Unless you want to live with doubts for 10-20 years, or have a sex life diminished by your WWs guilt about not coming clean.
I let my doubts go on for years to the point that my W feels she no longer want to reveal anything, except for reluctant or accidental trickle truth.
Ok Gamma, you've convinced me. How do I go about this without making it seem like a selfish demand and bringing up the affair again? Things are going well, but you're right, I do end up thinking about it on a frequent basis on whether or not she has been completely honest. It just feels like my soul is being pulled in two different directions. A need for the truth or a need to continue moving forward at a rapid pace that we are on.
I think it is a matter of being honest with your WW, how can anyone believe it was only oral sex or that she had a 2.5 year EA only???. She has to make amends to you somehow you don't want to be in this position having wasted 10 or 20 years with a sexless recovery. In some ways too your WW cannot recover if she is holding significant details from you.
I told her what I wanted this afternoon. She agreed, but I've seriously LB'd her. She is so upset. Now she feels that no matter how hard she tries that I can never get past this and will keep bringing the affairs up. What now?
Tell her this is a necessary step, and if she has been truthful then it will put the matter to rest, if she has not been truthful then there will never be a real recovery. Be resolute, chances are you will hear more confessions on the way to the polygraph, she may have only agreed because you backed out before or is very concerned about what will be revealed.
It's scheduled for Monday morning at 9. She seems really nervous and I dont know if it's just fear of the unknown or something else. She also said she wants to get it done as soon as possible. Then she tells me she may not remember some details. I'm really nervous and starting to wonder how much more I'm going to learn.
Then she tells me she may not remember some details. I'm really nervous and starting to wonder how much more I'm going to learn.
Whatever those secrets are they are now shared between WW and OM, or perhaps other OMs or OWs, she cannot have intimacies with others not shared with you if you are in a marriage. If she has secrets this will unburden your WW.
Lets see if the two of you make it to the appt on Monday; If she wants to cancel or manipulate you into canceling...then you will know you have a SERIOUS problem
She read my entire thread. She is really upset, but she wants to go through with this now and get it over with. She feels like I'm trying to punish her.
Your wife needs to try and understand that a truly repentant former wayward will undergo a poly to PROVE that s/he is telling the truth. Going through recovery is a very difficult process and requires, first of all, the full truth.
Lying about the extent of an affair is a great offense to betrayed spouses who need to know exactly what it is they are dealing with. It's not punishment.
I know and I tried to explain this and she just states "that's how I feel and there's no convincing me otherwise and this is going to hurt for a while.". I don't think I can get her to see my perspective, but she now wants vindication and she is sticking to what she's told me. She does understand how her story seems not believable, but she said I intervened the day before she was planning on going to his house for sex.
I lookefdd at your signature and your wife is a serial cheater. You should NOT show her your thread; why would you do that? Does she have you login name and password?
She read my entire thread. She is really upset, but she wants to go through with this now and get it over with. She feels like I'm trying to punish her.
She fully admitted that she hid specific details to try and control my decision to stay and work things out. She didn't think I would stay if I knew all the details of both affairs, but she also knew that I wouldn't trust/believe her if she didn't take the test or pass it. I know every little detail of everything. Traumatic and devastating day. Hurt and sadness, very little anger.
HDW, I can't lie, sneak, or hide emotion. My facial expressions give me away to everyone. I am an open book. If she cheats again, it just wasn't meant to be.
While it is true that you are back to zero hour, it is also true that you were in negative figures after dday so you have moved forward. I hope that your WW revealing the truth to you helps her to overcome her sexual distance.
I would also say that compared to where I am, you are 20 years ahead, so the recovery time you lost is a small percentage of the years of good marriage you can now have.
Had I polygraphed my W about OM2 when she was 30 I wouldn't be were I am now with a W who didn't passionately kiss me for almost the duration of my marriage.
Yeah, we've had to renegotiate some thing's, but the polygraph has definitely helped her and she does seem really focused on helping me which gives me some hope. I'm just back to square one with the sleepless nights and mistrust and resentment. It feels like it just happened yesterday.
Again be glad you got this NOW and not some number of years from now. This period of suffering is a small percentage of the years of married life you can now have with your W. It was painful resetting the bone, but eventually you will be walking again.
It's not fun considering divorce at 50 from a wife who is basically a good person, even more so after MB, but who feels nothing for you sexually, and had had not had those feelings for years.
Yes, I hope this is the turning point. She seems more determined than ever to make this work, which in of itself is making a lot of deposits in my bank. Last night didn't turn out so good with both of us dishing out some LB's, but we made up and today has been better. For some reason, working out has been therapeutic for me and my saving grace. Seems like I have to do it twice a day to just be able to sleep at night. I know it will get better with time, I just wish the clock would roll faster.
Wow, I don't even know where to begin. I feel really good. She has now seen how things go when we meet that 15 hour a week threshold and she loves it. We've actually come up with a workable plan for UA time and she is a changed person. It reminds me of when we were dating, but better in every way. No more selfish behavior and disagreements are quickly resolved without raised voices. We have a lunch date Monday afternoon that we are both looking forward to. I feel hopeful about the future again.
Glad to hear it, you really did the right thing getting that polygraph, you can now look forward to a long and happy married life.
Melody often points out that most infidelity does not end marriages, but maims them and they limp along unhappily for years undermined by horrible secrets.
Funny thing is I was out shopping with the W yesterday and she was absent mindedly relating a story about OM, one that she could only have known if she was in his bedroom. I asked her about a further detail and she changed her story from I saw it, to OM told me about it.
Funny thing is I was out shopping with the W yesterday and she was absent mindedly relating a story about OM, one that she could only have known if she was in his bedroom. I asked her about a further detail and she changed her story from I saw it, to OM told me about it.
After 20+ years my W still is trickle truthing.
God Bless Gamma
Did you tell WW that she just changed her story? Or did you let it go by?
What was thatimportant that your WW felt the need to share something about the OM 20 years later without being asked.
A trickle truth queen that all of a sudden had to volunteer OM info. That puzzles me why when a WW won't talk about the PA did what she did.
Funny thing is I was out shopping with the W yesterday and she was absent mindedly relating a story about OM, one that she could only have known if she was in his bedroom. I asked her about a further detail and she changed her story from I saw it, to OM told me about it.
After 20+ years my W still is trickle truthing.
God Bless Gamma
I don't know if I could handle that. You're able to endure more than I ever could. May God be with you and your struggles.
My W is one who had a very difficult time handling fault with close family. She likes to act as if her A with OM2 was nothing. The closest W ever came to an apology or admission was to ask me which OM 1,2,3 or 4 bothered me the most, but asking even that was torture for her.
It's almost like her making that comment in the store was an attempt at validation of her innocence in the affair. It is consistent with how she acted during the affair.
It is also in line with how my W family handles guilt. My FIL was a frequent serial cheater almost his entire married life, but always had complicated justifications and denials and never saw himself in the wrong.
I didn't respond because I need to visit OM and I don't want my W tipping him off or getting their stories in line, although I think it unlikely W knows where he is. I now do, or at least I know where his W/ExW? lives.
I don't know if I could handle that. You're able to endure more than I ever could. May God be with you and your struggles.
Thank you, it was less of a struggle for all of those years and more like a wound that you just get used to, but that could have healed a long time ago.
You are lucky to have dealt with the problem, rather then dealing with it later in life. Your W's hiding that her affair with OM1 was physical would have been a long term damper on your marriage.
You are welcome Gamma. Veterans day is a tough one for me now. I feel like I was taken advantage of while I was away from home serving my country and then working so much while I was home. Some people are just total scumbags.
You are welcome Gamma. Veterans day is a tough one for me now. I feel like I was taken advantage of while I was away from home serving my country and then working so much while I was home. Some people are just total scumbags.
Thank you very much for your service INTERNAL_PAIN.
Yes, I still have trouble sleeping. During the week I take sleep aids when I have to work the next day, but I the weekends I just stay up til I crash.
Yes, she is totally onboard with the program. She wants to save the marriage at all costs.
I told her that I still had questions that she had answered that I didn't believe and they were eating away at me and I could no longer move forward. At first she said no, but she realized on her own that not taking it implied guilt and I would ask her to leave. I was also meeting her needs and the thought of breaking up our family was too much.
No, she does not post here.
Ummm, I don't experience PTSD from the wars, maybe from the infidelity and revelations from the polygraph.
Yeah, we did. We both agreed I had just to much time in and am too close to retirement. We just want to get out of this area so there is never a chance of a run in with the wrong person.
Yeah, we did. We both agreed I had just to much time in and am too close to retirement. We just want to get out of this area so there is never a chance of a run in with the wrong person.
That's a fantastic idea.
So you have how long until you get to move?
Sounds like she is doing everything she needs to make you feel safe in your marriage?
You think your marriage is better than it ever has been?
We have about five years until we can move. Our house is so far under water we are stuck and if I default on our mortgage I would lose my security clearance. SO, she does everything she can to make me feel safe. We are still working on the sex part, but that's the only thing that really bothers me. And she knows it's a problem and continues to try and make me heal inside.
Yes, our marriage is better than it's ever been, plus my DD is so adorable, cute, lovable and funny....she keeps me motivated
We have about five years until we can move. Our house is so far under water we are stuck and if I default on our mortgage I would lose my security clearance. SO, she does everything she can to make me feel safe. We are still working on the sex part, but that's the only thing that really bothers me. And she knows it's a problem and continues to try and make me heal inside.
Yes, our marriage is better than it's ever been, plus my DD is so adorable, cute, lovable and funny....she keeps me motivated
Well I'm glad you both came to an enthusiastic decision.
I can relate to the 12 hours night shift because I work that also plus we rotate every 4 months between nights and days and so I'm so exhausted after the week is up. Is she excercising? I know this helps me so much.
How is she doing on her AO?
She is O&H with you about the SF?
It sounds like conversation is a high need of hers? How are you doing on meeting that for her?
I've been doing a very good job of meeting her need for IC. I could improve a little on the affection and I also need to work more on being positive. We had a big talk last nite on SF and it turned ugly cause she AO'd me and I retaliated with a bunch of DJ's. We came to a mutual agreement though, and she's going to open up a little more and not have to have everything so scripted for SF.
She is not exercising and is sick again which is really LBing me, cause she doesn't feel like SF and I think she isn't as resistant to illness because of her lack of exercise. She has been eating better though.
I've been doing a very good job of meeting her need for IC. I could improve a little on the affection and I also need to work more on being positive. We had a big talk last nite on SF and it turned ugly cause she AO'd me and I retaliated with a bunch of DJ's. We came to a mutual agreement though, and she's going to open up a little more and not have to have everything so scripted for SF.
She is not exercising and is sick again which is really LBing me, cause she doesn't feel like SF and I think she isn't as resistant to illness because of her lack of exercise. She has been eating better though.
I know one thing that helped me tremendously with my AO (besides Dr. Harely telling me that no one makes me have an AO but myself) was how WH responded to me about the issue.
If he responded positive and didn't DJ me I started to get a handle on this. Also Dr. H told me when my WH was having his AO and wanted to argue that it takes two to argue and so I would walk away.
If affection is a top need for her as is conversation that will depend alot on how you are to her.
She is very lucky that you are working so hard on your marriage and you're lucky that she isn't a reluctant wayward. I know it is difficult when you're in the trenches and your taker starts showing it's head, but you are staying with it and seem to be making progress.
What do you think you can do to be more positive to her? I find when my WH does something that I know I want to DJ I find a reason to exit the room or conversation and take a deep breath. Dr. Harely has a radio segment about anger management 101 and he talks about this techinique.
So what would you do differently with your fight from last night? What did you do today or last night to compensate for your part in the fight?
Usually the affair comes up when she lacks/seemingly lacks desire. I just feel like I can't compete with the excitement of the affair and really feel undesired. We are working on trying different stuff, cause she's always been very conservative with me in the bedroom. I'm actually in the best shape of my life and I've seen the two OM, so it's not looks I'm lacking, I guess just LB deposits. I just try to keep my head up, I am feeling a lot better since the polygraph.
Usually the affair comes up when she lacks/seemingly lacks desire. I just feel like I can't compete with the excitement of the affair and really feel undesired. We are working on trying different stuff, cause she's always been very conservative with me in the bedroom. I'm actually in the best shape of my life and I've seen the two OM, so it's not looks I'm lacking, I guess just LB deposits. I just try to keep my head up, I am feeling a lot better since the polygraph.
You do know that once you get everything out about the affair you should never talk about it again? Dr. Harley talks about this on the radio show today.
Are you still obsessed about the affair? That will do a number on your self esteem. You're hitting the gym. What else can you do for yourself?
Usually the affair comes up when she lacks/seemingly lacks desire. I just feel like I can't compete with the excitement of the affair and really feel undesired. We are working on trying different stuff, cause she's always been very conservative with me in the bedroom. I'm actually in the best shape of my life and I've seen the two OM, so it's not looks I'm lacking, I guess just LB deposits. I just try to keep my head up, I am feeling a lot better since the polygraph.
You do know that once you get everything out about the affair you should never talk about it again? Dr. Harley talks about this on the radio show today.
Are you still obsessed about the affair? That will do a number on your self esteem. You're hitting the gym. What else can you do for yourself?
One thought that helped me understand my Ws lack of desire, is that she sees me as a husband and a father and not as a lover. Getting back to that role will be easier for you than me, I hope, since you caught it early and while you are young.
She is not exercising and is sick again which is really LBing me, cause she doesn't feel like SF.
Yea, I hate to say it, but my W seemed almost happy to get gyncological problems, and it seems more like denial and avoidance than an aversion, almost like a form of sexual suicide that helps her cope with the guilt.
Yeah, I know talking about the affair is an LB and I try not to,... but during her affair, she was initiating and participating every weekend, but does not initiate EVER with me.
It's a bit like telling someone not to think about something.
The initiating I just don't know, but again it's almost like my W puts me in a different category of humanity, and since that form of humanity gives unconditional love she does not have to work for it.
Slightly confused here was she initiating with you as a result of being stimulated by OM, or initiating with OM?
Are you struggling with triggers or managing memories?
When you discuss with your wife that you need SF met, what does she say?
You say she is all in on recovering your marriage but won't meet your need for SF. Is she really being O&H to you? If you truly are in a state of intimacy then she should want to meet your needs. Have you thought about emailing the radio show?
You say she's tired a lot. Has she had a check up? Blood work?
I can tell you are down(depressed). Have you been to the doctor?
No, I haven't been to the Dr.. If I take any type of psychotropic drugs I would lose my clearance and potentially be separated from the service due to manning draw downs. So, I just have to suck it up and find other ways to deal with it. I wouldn't say my wife isn't willing, but she lacks desire. Requires a lot of oral stimulation from me prior to actual intercourse. Like I said, she never initiates with me and that part hurts.
No, I haven't been to the Dr.. If I take any type of psychotropic drugs I would lose my clearance and potentially be separated from the service due to manning draw downs. So, I just have to suck it up and find other ways to deal with it. I wouldn't say my wife isn't willing, but she lacks desire. Requires a lot of oral stimulation from me prior to actual intercourse. Like I said, she never initiates with me and that part hurts.
Ok I see about the meds and that is a tough one.
So what else can you do for yourself? Did you read the chapter from HN/HN about what a women sometimes needs for "stimulation"?
Listen to this radio clip about 4:52 in. It's from a guy who needs more desire from his wife.
I listened to the clip. Sounds just like our case, but I found the answer very disappointing. We've read HNHN's and LB's and SAA. Maybe I just need to get her a testosterone patch. Just kidding.
She knows about my need for her to initiate sometimes, but she has not up to this point. Shes tired of talking about it to the point that it is a LB now. So I quietly suffer hoping and waiting.
I'm going to email the show. The coaching is currently financially out of the question. I just need to give her some time maybe.... I don't know.
I know it's natural to focus on the BS recovery, but really it may just take two years from the last DDay for your W to come back to 100% with you. This isn't fair that you have to pay for her crime for that time, but I'm not sure there is any magic pill to speed it up.
You might take some comfort that most BS are not as lucky as you were to find out, and find MB, they end up with a wounded marriage that goes on that way for years.
You may feel that you are losing years of your sex life or at the very least suffering with a lower quality, I feel that too and it's one of my most persistent regrets. You might want to think that the years you will be able to spend with your DD, that would never have happened if you got divorced,will compensate for that.
I listened to the clip. Sounds just like our case, but I found the answer very disappointing. We've read HNHN's and LB's and SAA. Maybe I just need to get her a testosterone patch. Just kidding.
She knows about my need for her to initiate sometimes, but she has not up to this point. Shes tired of talking about it to the point that it is a LB now. So I quietly suffer hoping and waiting.
I'm going to email the show. The coaching is currently financially out of the question. I just need to give her some time maybe.... I don't know.
Good keep us updated on when you hear back from the Harleys. Will your wife talk to them also? They love it when they can talk to the couple.
So what else are you doing for you? Anyone in RL to talk to?
How are you doing on conversation with your wife? You know better than me that you have to stay focused and keep up with the hard work. Also be kind to yourself, recovery can be more diificult than the affair.
Just wanted to point out that there are some natural remedies/herbs that might help your mood without having to use meds. St. John's Wort is one and 5-HTP is another. Do some research and maybe try something like that.
Ummm....I don't feel comfortable talking to anyone about my sexual insecurities due to my wife's affair. We have a counselor, but I just don't feel right talking to her about it. Number one, she's a she....number two she's never been married. I just vent on here to deal with it. My wife is really done talking about it. As far as she's concerned there is not a problem and that it's all in my head. She said it's a LB, so I'm not going to bring it up anymore. I read the above article awhile back, I'm just going to continue trying to meet her needs and see if she improves meeting mine.
BH, I'll let you in on a secret if you promise not to tell anyone, MEN HAVE NO ONE TO TALK TO.
Had I not found MB I would have wandered through life without expressing any of the thoughts that I did here.
There are no support groups for men who have been cheated on and it's somewhat assumed that a man is lacking as a sexual creature when his W or GF went elsewhere. I guess why that's why there are so many jokes about cuckolded men.
And just as with Internal_Pain, my W doesn't want to talk about it, oh well scratch that therapist off the list.
I have come to realize that I can never match the excitement of the affair, but my wife and I did order "101 nights of amazing sex" to try and change things up which is a huge step for her since she has always been so conservative with me.
I have come to realize that I can never match the excitement of the affair, but my wife and I did order "101 nights of amazing sex" to try and change things up which is a huge step for her since she has always been so conservative with me.
Well that's a good sign. I hope it's fantastic for the two of you.
I kind of want to break up and break down this response here, IP.
Originally Posted by INTERNAL_PAIN
I have come to realize that I can never match the excitement of the affair
There are two forces at work that make an affair "exciting."
The first is quite simple; novelty. Our brains are wired to dump massive reward chemicals with sexual novelty. No, you can't "compete" with that any more than your wife could compete with you having a new partner, or "experiencing" a "new partner" via something like pornography.
The second is risk; no matter the excuses or justifications of the fog, an affair is "exciting" like stealing a candy bar is "exciting." Our brains, for all intents and purposes, are DUMB. The excitement of infidelity is caused by the dopamine rush of doing something the perpetrator knows is fundamentally wrong - the AP doesn't matter at all, the brain stupidly attributes that heightened state to the AP rather than to the fact that the WS is doing something completely wrong.
You CAN actually compete with this component, though!
How?
I'm completely serious here; take your wife skydiving, or rock climbing, or bungee jumping. Put together some activities which are EXHILERATING. Those "rush" feelings will be atrributed to each of the other rather than the activity. You can also gain some of this by tackling some projects together, as you will each attribute the sense of accomplishment to each other unknowingly.
Originally Posted by INTERNAL_PAIN
she has always been so conservative with me.
Funny thing here, IP. But, one of the reasons that a WS seems more "adventerous" with an AP is due to the nature of the adulterous relationship. Adultery is a freeloader's relationship. What is borne is not intimacy, but a lack of mutual respect. A WS will be more adventerous because it doesn't really matter if the AP rejects them; the AP is disposable.
If you want your wife to be more open with you, on the other hand, you have to foster something else. She actually cares what you might think about her due to experimentation (despite what past actions may have shown).
What you have to do, is to foster a real sense of intimacy.
The best working definition of intimacy I have seen worked something like this;
A state of closeness and openness absent the fear of judgement or rejection.
Some food for thought.
Now, beyond that - how has your UA time been? What are your W's top 3 needs?
All excellent points HHH. We have been meeting the 15 hours a week threshold for the past two weeks. Top 3 are IC, A, and FS.
I've followed you, IP - but I'm not sure how well I "know" you.
As for me, I'm a nurse, a rationalist, and trust in science and logic.
I know the feeling you speak of, the idea of "competing" with that "high."
Yet, once you figure out the causes of excitement, it's not much of a threat.
Make sure your UA time is good, quality UA time, and see what you can do to bump that UA time up to 20-25 a week for a while. Write some little love letters and place them some place she will find them.
It's funny, but I was reading an article today about marital satisfaction.
Do you know what a good degree of men report brings them marital satisfaction?
I'll try to bump that up some. It will be difficult since she and I both work so much, but see what I can do. Yeah, I try to think about it logically, I'm an engineer myself, but sometimes it's hard not to think that I'm competing with that high.
I'm a woman and during the first awful year post-D-Day often suffered that concern about not having that same kind of excitement you are talking about in our own SF life. I know logically that what HHH states is true--that much of that "high" is from the novelty of a new person as well as from the thrill of the "forbidden fruit." H told me himself that it was the idea of getting away with something that made it so exciting.
But after his withdrawal period was over, and he began to see the adultery for what it really was..and the OW for who she really was, he says our own SF life is more deeply satisfying. Sure, the excitement part is rather toned down; after all, like you and your W, we are sort of "used" to each other. But that very thought of being used to each other is actually a wonderful familiarity.
To this day, almost a year and four months from D-Day, I still occasionally have niggling doubts if I am having a little trouble with my own side on a particular occasion of SF. It (O) doesn't always happen each time for many women, and once I broke down and wept in the middle of the whole thing, saying I felt so inadequate, although before the A, I never felt that way if it didn't work out for me the way we had expected. It was the idea of thinking that the OW probably had fireworks going each and every time and that nothing I could ever do would ever compare.
As you and your W fall in love with each other again, you will eventually logically come to the conclusion that your W finds you exciting and attractive and that you outshine any OM in every way.
From my long-ago single days during which time I was sowing a great many wild oats, (for which I since have great regret) I can say that one reason a woman will often initiate sex is from a desire to get something from the man; most often the desire is to get love.
Ummm....pretty good. Had a fairly decent weekend at the beach. Communicating well, but WW had kind of an emotional outpouring of sorts today when I got home. Stems from me leaving next month for deployment. She is scared I'll come home with an empty love bank and not want to have anything to do with her. I just let her vent, asked a few questions and we talked about building some healthy female friendships to help fill the void when I leave. All in all, I feel better this week. I hurt myself working out last week and had to take some days off, ate really bad food over weekend, so it felt good to get back into routine today.
Ummm....pretty good. Had a fairly decent weekend at the beach. Communicating well, but WW had kind of an emotional outpouring of sorts today when I got home. Stems from me leaving next month for deployment. She is scared I'll come home with an empty love bank and not want to have anything to do with her. I just let her vent, asked a few questions and we talked about building some healthy female friendships to help fill the void when I leave. All in all, I feel better this week. I hurt myself working out last week and had to take some days off, ate really bad food over weekend, so it felt good to get back into routine today.
So did you discuss with her and give her hints on how to fill your lovebank, during your deployment?
I got some good ideas when my WH was deployed.
How long will you be gone? So sorry for the seperation.
No, I don't really know how she can meet my needs while I'm deployed. I have told her she could make an effort to work out and to continue to be very transparent for OH. But, it's going to be hard due to physical separation to meet my top two. I told her that she'll just have to keep trying when I get back to fill my love bank back up Gonna be gone for about three and a half months..
No, I don't really know how she can meet my needs while I'm deployed. I have told her she could make an effort to work out and to continue to be very transparent for OH. But, it's going to be hard due to physical separation to meet my top two. I told her that she'll just have to keep trying when I get back to fill my love bank back up Gonna be gone for about three and a half months..
So Triple H gave me some creative ideas that maybe you can share with hour wife.
Phone calls become "fun" time. Send care packages with an article of clothing that we each wore so it had our scents. As many of pleasant and "love" letters/emails. Definitely have her get some good female support. How are YOU going to be prepared for the seperation? What are YOU going to do while you're going tork
We are going to use Skype, which is a relatively new and good thing for her. She really seemed to enjoy that on my last overseas trip. I'm also going to send her love letters and that kind of stuff.
I honestly don't know what I'm going to do. There is a church there that I plan to get involved with and I'll be working 12-16 hour days so I don't think I'll be tempted into anything bad. I'm just hoping that I can handle it emotionally and not let the past eat away at my soul.
We talked about it some last night. I think if she responds to some of my letters and sends me pictures and continues to make me feel safe I will feel much better.
She keeps talking about having another child, so today I told her that if she continues to treat our marriage and family like gold that we could talk seriously about it after I got back, but not until then.
She did say her no. 1 goal for her concerning our marriage was to restore my trust...actually made me feel good.
I emailed the radio show tonight. I can't take the lack of initiation anymore. It's eating me up inside and making it even harder to meet her needs. This has just been a really bad day.
The lack of initiation is a difficult one, as I can't get a straight answer on why from my W. I think if I caught my W masterbating I would divorce her. Sometimes it feels like I am the only one in the marriage sexually speaking.
Not being flip, but when was the last time your W initiated, in my case it was something like 17 years ago when I came back from a 1 month work trip.
I seriously think my W was always waiting for life to become perfect, and when I didn't deliver, she didn't deliver either. OM on the other hand had to do much less to be perfect, he didn't have to make money, or do housework, or take care of kids, and she didn't have to live with him.
Did she stop initiating before OM1 began? It might help you to draw out a timeline for yourself. It really is almost like you've never had a marriage and you are creating one from zero which will take time.
Did she initiate before marriage, I ask that because with my W the initial phase of OM2 affair was before, but close to our marriage date. From the dates you have written it sounds like non-initiation began slightly before your wedding. Was your W involved with someone pre-marriage?
OM2 affair continued as an EA during my early marriage, likely sporatic, until she wanted to divorce me about a year into it, but I suspect she settled/committed to me when OM got married.
She initiated while we were dating, but not after we got married. All the affairs started after my daughter was born according to the polygraph administrator. She says that is something she needs to work on.
Well you've got at least 2 things going for you then, she is working on her engine, and awhile back you wrote that you can start her with oral. Good God how I wished the oral trick worked with my W LOL, some women just seem to lack a self-starter!
Yeah, things seem a lot better since the poly. I don't know if it was the fear of me finding out, hence not fully investing or the guilt, but she seems to have turned over a new leaf believing in Dr. H's principles. She even said herself the other day after working 3 days in a row that she was in bad need of having her EN's met. I told her "now you know how I feel.". Then I met her needs and she met mine. It was great.
I'm gonna give up on that aspect. It's better now. She finally gets it. She wants me to heal. I may never understand why, but if she really wants to save the marriage and meet my needs and she does I guess it doesn't matter why.
I'm finally here at the point where I have to leave and I have to say I am scared to death of what's going to happen over the next few months. I don't think I've ever been so emotional in my life. The worst part is, I have to tend to all the guys/gals problems that are going with me and I just keep thinking to myself " I sure would like to be able to fix my problems too.". It's hard to stay positive. My WW is actually really stepping up. Saying and doing all the right things. I'm just so scared of her feeling lonely while I'm gone and falling off the wagon. But there is really nothing I can do now but just hang on for the ride and hope she stays strong. Sometimes life just really sucks.
I'm finally here at the point where I have to leave and I have to say I am scared to death of what's going to happen over the next few months. I don't think I've ever been so emotional in my life. The worst part is, I have to tend to all the guys/gals problems that are going with me and I just keep thinking to myself " I sure would like to be able to fix my problems too.". It's hard to stay positive. My WW is actually really stepping up. Saying and doing all the right things. I'm just so scared of her feeling lonely while I'm gone and falling off the wagon. But there is really nothing I can do now but just hang on for the ride and hope she stays strong. Sometimes life just really sucks.
Good luck. Do lots of skype time as possible and lots of email to stay in her mind. How long are you gone for? Three months?
I think your FWW will be ok on her own, previously she was in a state of dishonesty which made telling another lie just that much easier. I think your making her take the lie detector forced her to understand that there are costs to her choices.
If she can't pass this test she is not the wife you want to be with when you are 50. It's better if she falls off the wagon now than when she is 45.
I just had a realization that I never exposed OM1. There hasn't been any contact in at least 1.5years, but I'm worried that if I do a massive Facebook exposure to his friends that he'll try and initiate contact after I leave. A no contact letter was sent to him a few months back. It's kind of a small town and I don't want to shame my wife any further by bringing up the affair publicly again right before I leave. I just know that when I confronted OM2 that he called her new job where she was at to see if she knew I showed up at his house. Which she called me right after he called.
Just wait until you return, you have too much to worry about for the time being with deployment, put OM1 on ice. You will expose him when you get back. Think of it as next years deer season.
Gather the data you need now while you have access however.
No he is not married and I really didn't know a whole lot until polygraph. That's the reason I didn't do a massive facebook exposure. I think you're right though.
This really sucks being away. I can feel the resentment building back up and I feel empty inside again. The thing is, she isn't doing anything wrong, we are just physically separated. I hate to make her worry, but this does not feel good.
This really sucks being away. I can feel the resentment building back up and I feel empty inside again. The thing is, she isn't doing anything wrong, we are just physically separated. I hate to make her worry, but this does not feel good.
So sorry my friend. I understand how difficult the deployments are. I don't wish them on anyone.
Have you told your W how you're feeling? What does she say?
So, I don't know if she has been reading up, but she has said all the right things. Like.....I only did it cause I did nt want the attention to stop. I wasnt interested in the sex, it was all om pushing, i just didnt want attention to stop. Can I believe this? WW's out there, is this true?
As a FWW, I always say it does not matter what I felt then. What matters is what I feel and who I choose to be now. I think that is difficult for a BS to accept.
I read your post a long time ago. I thought I would but in my 2 cents.
It makes me sad when a W does not seem to get the benefits of SF. For me SF creates energy. In my experience it requires a lot more energy on the guys side. I read somewhere that some believe SF takes energy from the H and gives it to the W.
I think it can be difficult to get a W engaged so that SF is interactive. Even if the H is doing everything right in taking care of his W, if she is not actively responding and playing in the event, she will not get the energy rush. I think an A forces the WW to be engaged or the OM would not be willing to risk taking it physical. You will not find many FWW admitting to wanting to have the sex but I would bet most of them were playing their part in the event.
IMHO, if SF is a top EN for H, he needs to find ways to pull the W into the game of SF. Your W does not seem to have a natural comfort with SF; you will have to help her find the energy boost.
You must have a lot of time to think while you are deployed. There must be some aspects of SF that your wife really enjoyed in the past. Bring those memories up to her and hope that she too will anticipate them when you return. Bring back the memories of the good SF moments you had together and make new ones (every day) when you get home. Get that kid to bed early.
If she is tired let her lay there and talk while you explore your woman, the one who has chosen you over the OM. I think you can meet her needs for intimate conversation and affection while slowly slipping into full SF. Let her do most of the talking and you just give gentle positive responses. Eventually you will figure out what you do that gets her to stop talking and get involved. It is all just a matter of time. Take time to enjoy her every day. Over time she will appreciate and crave the attention from you.
When do you get to go home? Spend some time creating anticipation.
So, I don't know if she has been reading up, but she has said all the right things. Like.....I only did it cause I did nt want the attention to stop. I wasnt interested in the sex, it was all om pushing, i just didnt want attention to stop. Can I believe this? WW's out there, is this true?
This suggests she has an extremely high need for admiration.
As a BW of a WH soldier the time away from home never stopped. It seemed each time he was gone something tragic happened to our kids, our home, or to me ... it was lonely ... truly lonely when WH deployed (or had to be away for training). I can completely understand how she just wanted attention ... a soldier can and often compartmentalizes their family (especially in a war zone). We feel your distance ... we feel you pulling away ... we feel your emotionless system working.
It is difficult for a wife to remain strong and dedicated when our soldier husbands disconnect in order to survive on the battlefields.
When WH would get home I was angry because I wanted him to notice me ... to be thankful for the job I did as mother while he was away. I wanted him to be thankful for keeping the house in tact and keeping the family running.
I wanted WH to throw all his love and affection onto me because he missed me that much ... that never happened. The more he was gone with the military the more he checked himself out of the marriage. Even when he was CONUS ... the time away for military training was huge.
Each moment away destroyed my marriage one layer at a time.
I was extremely vulnerable to any man's attention. I can remember some colleagues flattering me once with how well I do as a single mom ... man my lovebank tank was a fillin' right up.
Your wife and family are extremely vulnerable to all attention given while you are away from home. There are so many dynamics to be a military wife and it gets lost on our soldiers while gone.
She needs extra admiration and extra affection ... your UA time has to be increased when you are home ... 25+ hours should be a minimum to compensate for the times you are away.
I can only thank you for the words do encouragement. She seems more repentful now more than ever. I can't even imagine leaving now, it would just seem so hurtful to her and my daughter that I couldnt choose myself over them. Is it wrong to stay and put them over yourself? I don't know, but I just couldn't take seeing my daughter respecting another man as her step father.
I think it is wrong to say you are staying for them. Make staying good for you too, do not be a martyr. Stay for yourself (and them) and make the most amazing life with your W. Want it and believe that you can have it. You have another 50+ years with your wife, make them good. Do not make the last two years the one's that define your M for the rest of your life.
"As a FWW, I always say it does not matter what I felt then. What matters is what I feel and who I choose to be now. I think that is difficult for a BS to accept."
You choose to ignore that at one time you preferred your OM to your BH. Because a WW decides to now be with the BH that makes amends for what she did with the OM. I don't think so.
"I think an A forces the WW to be engaged or the OM would not be willing to risk taking it physical."
OM are on the hunt for SF. The WW may or may not want the SF all that much. The WW may or may have better SF with the OM. Though the WW will gladly trade SF to continue getting her missing needs met.
"You will not find many FWW admitting to wanting to have the sex but I would bet most of them were playing their part in the event."
What's to admit they did it with the OM. The WW rewrite history painting the BH as bad and the OM all that is good during the affair. It is hard to separate the truth from the justification.
Just because the PA is over the BH is suppose to take the WW's word that WW didn't want SF with the OM, that SF was better with BH just because the WW say's so?
That a WW did everything with the OM, things she would never do with the BH before and still wants to deny the BH and the BH is suppose to be ok?
I think it is wrong to say you are staying for them. Make staying good for you too, do not be a martyr. Stay for yourself (and them) and make the most amazing life with your W. Want it and believe that you can have it. You have another 50+ years with your wife, make them good. Do not make the last two years the one's that define your M for the rest of your life.
WhoAreWE,
Do you understand Dr. Harley's basic concepts? Have you read any of Dr. Harley's books or articles on here?
As a FWW, I always say it does not matter what I felt then. What matters is what I feel and who I choose to be now. I think that is difficult for a BS to accept.
I read your post a long time ago. I thought I would but in my 2 cents.
It makes me sad when a W does not seem to get the benefits of SF. For me SF creates energy. In my experience it requires a lot more energy on the guys side. I read somewhere that some believe SF takes energy from the H and gives it to the W.
I think it can be difficult to get a W engaged so that SF is interactive. Even if the H is doing everything right in taking care of his W, if she is not actively responding and playing in the event, she will not get the energy rush. I think an A forces the WW to be engaged or the OM would not be willing to risk taking it physical. You will not find many FWW admitting to wanting to have the sex but I would bet most of them were playing their part in the event.
IMHO, if SF is a top EN for H, he needs to find ways to pull the W into the game of SF. Your W does not seem to have a natural comfort with SF; you will have to help her find the energy boost.
You must have a lot of time to think while you are deployed. There must be some aspects of SF that your wife really enjoyed in the past. Bring those memories up to her and hope that she too will anticipate them when you return. Bring back the memories of the good SF moments you had together and make new ones (every day) when you get home. Get that kid to bed early.
If she is tired let her lay there and talk while you explore your woman, the one who has chosen you over the OM. I think you can meet her needs for intimate conversation and affection while slowly slipping into full SF. Let her do most of the talking and you just give gentle positive responses. Eventually you will figure out what you do that gets her to stop talking and get involved. It is all just a matter of time. Take time to enjoy her every day. Over time she will appreciate and crave the attention from you.
When do you get to go home? Spend some time creating anticipation.
Originally Posted by WhoAreWE
I think it is wrong to say you are staying for them. Make staying good for you too, do not be a martyr. Stay for yourself (and them) and make the most amazing life with your W. Want it and believe that you can have it. You have another 50+ years with your wife, make them good. Do not make the last two years the one's that define your M for the rest of your life.
WhoAreWE,
Do you understand Dr. Harley's basic concepts? Have you read any of Dr. Harley's books or articles on here?
Brain hurts, Yes I am WW of IP. I am here because he still hurts in the SF dept. The problem seems not the frequency but his feelings of inadequacy in bedroom. I have been as open and honest with him as I can be regarding this issue. He fears I don't enjoy SF anymore, that I find him boring and he is not good enough....all of which are completely false....I did tell him that sex was becoming boring at one point but he internalized that and now it has turned into him thinking he is boring. I know that I need to be the one who initiates more and I am going to try as hard as I can to do that for him as part of his healing but can't right now bc he is deployed. It is the only area we having issues with recovery. I just need some advice from someone, anyone who has been through this. I need to know what else I need to do in order to restore his feelings of sexual inadequacy. It is hard for me to initiate since it is not a strong need of mine for SF..it is his number one. Help! I love him and I want more than anything to help him heal....my heart is heavy today bc I feel like I am failing him.
You need to continue meeting his need for SF. Initiating sex is not that hard or awkward when you just keep practising it. Have you discussed with your H what would you need from him to make SF more fulfilling for you?
Dr Harley says that SF is one of the top 4 emotional needs which create romantic love. Even if you say right now that SF is not a strong need of yours, it will grow to be such when you are living your life under MB rules: 15 hrs of UA time, POJA, meeting emotional needs, avoiding lovebusters. I used to think the same way, but what it really takes is some time to live MB marriage and I actually feel strong desire to have sex with my H.
Brain hurts, Yes I am WW of IP. I am here because he still hurts in the SF dept. The problem seems not the frequency but his feelings of inadequacy in bedroom. I have been as open and honest with him as I can be regarding this issue. He fears I don't enjoy SF anymore, that I find him boring and he is not good enough....all of which are completely false....I did tell him that sex was becoming boring at one point but he internalized that and now it has turned into him thinking he is boring. I know that I need to be the one who initiates more and I am going to try as hard as I can to do that for him as part of his healing but can't right now bc he is deployed. It is the only area we having issues with recovery. I just need some advice from someone, anyone who has been through this. I need to know what else I need to do in order to restore his feelings of sexual inadequacy. It is hard for me to initiate since it is not a strong need of mine for SF..it is his number one. Help! I love him and I want more than anything to help him heal....my heart is heavy today bc I feel like I am failing him.
Welcome WWofIP.
I was hoping that was you. I would start your own thread and you will get more continued great advice like Mrs.Recon shared with you.
There are lots of good knowledgeable posters on here that will chime in.
I'm glad you're trying to become a FWW. Are you ready to put the work in? If you are, then you will reap the benefits of having a very loving marriage.
All good advice! Thanks for the welcome...trying very hard to be the wife he deserves. I will strongly consider a new thread as the need for guidance surfaces. I feel us getting stronger everyday. god is good!
I would start a new thread very soon, not just when trouble arises, don't wait for that, try to prevent this. Having trouble with meeting SF is not an isolated case, it boils down how much and how you spend your UA time, exercise POJA, meet the rest of the most intimate needs and avoiding lovebusters. This is all intertwined together.
I finally got back home, but I feel like we've slid backwards somewhat due to the separation. I just don't have that in love feeling. I know it's from not having my EN's met, but it's been very hard dealing with the resentment building back up. I still feel this tearing inside my soul....one side that wants to start over and the other that wants to keep my wife and daughter happy. I know what I'm gonna do, but the emotions feel really strong again.
I'm glad to hear you're back home again, IP. Life is hard enough after D-Day without having that difficult separation due to deployment thrown in there as well.
Give yourself and your wife lots of UA hours. I encourage you to sign up for the Online Seminar. We have found the private forum invaluable - direct access to Dr. H. is great. Also, our coach was very helpful.
Can you and your W get away, just the two of you, for a few days?
The resentment will fade if you can both fall back in love again. Falling in love will take plenty of UA time and meeting each others ENs, avoiding love busters.
How is your wife doing? Were you able to stay in communication of sorts while you were deployed?
We were able to Skype a lot and she seems to still have that "in love" feeling but I don't. We're going to the beach and my grandmother will be there so we should be able to get some alone time. She has started working out though which is a really big change. She doesn't feel in shape enough yet to work out with me, but she is getting there.
We also have a date planned for Friday night. So I guess we'll just have to plan better for more UA time. She is going to drop to part time which should help out significantly.
You might read, and have your WW read, the postings by TheFlowerMom on the below thread. The thread itself is not necessarily helpful with your situation but TheFlowerMom's analogies are thoughtful.
I read all these links. I'm starting to lose faith. I'm starting to think its because we havent moved. I'm not sure. I used to believe in MB advice, but i just keep having flashbacks now to the things she did and said. I'm not sure what to do anymore.
I read all these links. I'm starting to lose faith. I'm starting to think its because we havent moved. I'm not sure. I used to believe in MB advice, but i just keep having flashbacks now to the things she did and said. I'm not sure what to do anymore.
Are you meeting the 4 intimate ENs during UA time?
Since you have a child together, try giving your marriage about six months. Once you spend those six months together, sharing a minimum of 20 hours of UA time (15 is the minimum to stay in love in a marriage that's already good) and meeting each others intimate ENs, you will have a better feel for how things are going.
Does your W practice the Extraordinary Precautions as a habit now?
Even without the A, it takes time to reconnect after a long separation.
The flashbacks and resentment take time to fade - about 2 - 5 years. MB is all about actions. Follow the plan and the actions required, and it will work.
The Online Seminar is worth the cost. The accountability is very helpful and having the online access to Dr. Harley has been invaluable. The assigned coach is also available.
You're absolutely right. I do have a daughter and I couldn't stand for her to have a stepdad. We both practice EP's and she does make me feel safe now and is very accountable for her time. We just need more UA time so I can feel close again.
You're absolutely right. I do have a daughter and I couldn't stand for her to have a stepdad. We both practice EP's and she does make me feel safe now and is very accountable for her time. We just need more UA time so I can feel close again.
So here I am. Almost two years later. Still with one foot out the door. It seems like its a daily talk with myself on why I should stay or why I should go. I feel like my WW has put me in my own personal hell. If I stay I have to be haunted by her affairs, if I go I'm putting my own interests over my DD's and get drug through a divorce. I don't know how any man recovers his self esteem from this. At what point do I cut my losses?
So here I am. Almost two years later. Still with one foot out the door. It seems like its a daily talk with myself on why I should stay or why I should go. I feel like my WW has put me in my own personal hell. If I stay I have to be haunted by her affairs, if I go I'm putting my own interests over my DD's and get drug through a divorce. I don't know how any man recovers his self esteem from this. At what point do I cut my losses?
I have one major question;
How is your UA time going?
If you are not keeping up UA time, and don't plan to take the most critical part of this program seriously, after two years you might be better off to pack it in. And don't ever remarry until you are ready to maintain UA time as the most critical part of your marriage.
My UA time is s#!t. I'm active duty military. I try, she tries. I'm starting to think recovery isn't possible in this line of work.
Not what you want to hear, right?
But, you are correct. With constant overnight separations recovery is nearly impossible.
The stress and anguish that you are going to go through during those separations will constantly empty your Love Bank, and each stretch of home time will be back to square one.
Your marriage may very well be recoverable, if you make the CHOICE to choose your marriage over your carreer.
I'd look into a family hardship discharge, and think about a line of work that will compliment, rather than harm, your marriage.
Sorry for your pain, brother. But, if you can rectify the gaping holes in the plan, I promise it gets better.
IP, have you posted over in the Military Marriages section of the forums at all?
I think you might find some guidance there from people who have faced similar situations, and how they were able to apply MB to their situations.
I'm sure a good deal of posters could conceptualize it, but those who have dredged through it may provide some better insight on applying the program while you still have 4 years of duty left...
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