Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
I am a corner cutter by nature so it is my natural inclination to find an easier, softer way to do most things. I figure that with most programs, if you cut out the fluff, you will find a much more efficient way to do something. With many things I am successful.

Not so with this program. I have tried and failed. So have many others. To their peril.

A big reason cutting corners does not work with this program is because Dr Harley has already done that. Since the corners have already been cut, further corner cutting only results in a watered down, impotent program. If you read his writings, you will quickly see that there is no fluff there. There is a straight line from start to finish. He is an engineer who is only interested in results. Measurable, quantifiable results. No psychobabble or wasted efforts.

Dr Harley left out the fluff and focused only on those activities that produced results. And he didnt hope there were good results, he tested his efficacy all the way to the end result, which was a test that actually MEASURES the romantic love each spouse feels for each other.

So when you see members here who are so adamant that a step not be skipped, it is not because we are hard-asses or zealots, but because we know what works and doesnt work. The longer a member is here, and the more familiar they are with the program, the more strict they will be. It is because they know cutting corners does not work.

The program simply does not work when corners are cut. It is not cafeteria plan where one picks and chooses. It has to be worked in its entirety to produce results. For example, it doesnt make much sense to spend 20 hours a week together if you are going to ruin it with lovebusters. It makes no sense to use the POJA when you arent practicing radical honesty. See, everything works TOGETHER. One concept affects the other to produce a complete result.

When a couple in a crippled marriage puts forth a half baked effort that reaps no results, they quickly become discouraged and stop trying altogether. That is a disaster for the marriage. This is why it is so important to do it right or dont do it at all. Doing it halfway often causes more problems than if the couple did nothing. Most marriages that show up here contain one reluctant spouse, so the hopeful spouse has ONE SHOT to make it work. When those half baked efforts produce nothing, there is often no second chance and all those efforts are wasted. The reluctant spouse now has grounds to the claim that marriage programs are a waste of time" and wont' try again.

And I will give you a couple of examples of corners that when cut, make all the difference between success and failure.

NO CONTACT WITH AFFAIR PARTNER AFTER AN AFFAIR

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.


How many times have we seen well meaning betrayed spouses ignore the no contact rule after an affair? Usually it is a situation where the affairees still work together and the BS does not want to rock the career boat. The BS learns the hard way eventually that the affair never ended and/or the WS stays so fogged out from occasional contact that recovery is rendered impossible.

THE CRITICAL IMPORTANCE OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION TIME TO RESTORE ROMANTIC LOVE
from Effective Marriage Counseling:
Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
"When I see a couple for the first time, I let them know that my program will require a minimum of fifteen hours a week of their time. If they can't dedicate that much time while I'm counseling them, I suggest they find another counselor because my plan won't work without it."


This is one of the biggest misses that couples make here. This program does not work without this step. No, 8 hours does not work, 10 hours does not work. It takes 15 hours of UA time per week to maintain romantic love and 20+ hours to create. It does not mean time you spend with your kids or watching TV. The time is most effective spent away from home in an environment that does not invite distractions in 2-4 hour blocks, meeting the top 4 INTIMATE EMOTIONAL NEEDS of affection, conversation, rec companionship, sexual fulfillment.

Once again, I found out the hard way that you cannot cut your hours and stay in love. A couple of years ago, my H and I slacked on this and were down to 6-8ish hours per week. We noticed the romantic love in our marriage going down fast.

Those are some of the top ways where corner cutting causes disaster. Please take it from a graduate of the School of Hard Knocks, and don't cut corners if you want to have what this program offers. It is not easy at first to implement new behaviors, but once learned, they become second nature.

And it is much, much easier to have a great marriage than a bad one!



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1

Another huge miss is recovery of the marriage after an affair. Ending the affair is FIRST STEP, not the LAST STEP. Ending the affair is the first step of a SEVERAL STEPS.

When a couple just ends the affair and then STOPS, they end up with a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage. They are more vulnerable to an affair after than before. And many of these people end up back on this forum battling 2nd and 3rd affairs.

It is tempting to many betrayed spouses to be so relieved the affair is over that they are deluded into thinking they are out of danger. OH NO. They are not. They are not out of danger until the marriage experiences a radical 180 degree change that will create an affair proof environment.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Drives me nuts when people refuse to expose. Particularly when there is another BS in the dark, being gaslighted. Exposure is an essential step, clearly outlined by Dr H, but so many BSs treat it though it is not applicable to their situation....


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686
Yes, that's something I can't figure out.

Most people I think are afraid of how angry the WS will get...which is inevitable anyway...


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
It gets irritating, because while you know this stuff is all very new to people, the reasons not to follow the plan tend to be about them, not about their marriage.

I dont want her to get angry at ME

I dont want him to lose his job through exposure because the money loss would affect ME

I dont want my family to give ME a hard time about forgiving a cheater = no exposure.

etc...

I am guilty of this myself too btw. When I first showed up here, I needed to snoop and people told me to buy gadgets to help

I said - Gadgets would cost ME too much!!!

Amazing - I actually put the value of a gadget as worth more than my marriage.

The translation of what I really meant was:

'Hi, I'm still deep in betrayed spouse fog and really just want to believe the best in order to get through this traumatic time. Buying gadgets might give me a nasty reality shock that I am not ready to contemplate yet. If I just put my head in the sand, won't all this go away by its self?'

Which is what I suspect most people mean when they say they dont want exposure, a poly, radical honesty or some other vital and really quite easy step.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 289
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 289
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Drives me nuts when people refuse to expose. Particularly when there is another BS in the dark, being gaslighted. Exposure is an essential step, clearly outlined by Dr H, but so many BSs treat it though it is not applicable to their situation....


I EXPOSED the WW and POSOM!!!!!!!!
To MY family!.....to HIS family!......to HER family!.....to OUR friends!!

My WW is now so MAD about the exposure that she won't communicate with me IN ANY WAY!!!!
AND I WOULD EXPOSE HER AND POSUM IN THE SAME WAY AGAIN!!!
You had no problem doing it!!!......Let's let EVERYONE KNOW!!!
TURN ON THE LIGHTS THROUGH EXPOSURE!!!
If the WW can't accept responsibility......well, enjoy your life!
EXPOSE!!!!!!!!.........just DO IT!!!!

Last edited by BillCarolina; 09/17/11 07:36 PM.

BH(Me)= 55
WW(Her)=43
DD=24 (My step-daughter, been raising her since the age of 8, SHE'S MY DAUGHTER!!)
Married=13 yrs
Together=16.5 yrs
THIS IS MY STORY
WW moved out of the home = May 1,2011
D-Day=July 4, 2011
Dear Wife: I'm COMPLETELY CRAZY about you!.....as of Aug-2012 forget that last part....Good Luck to you and GOODBYE!!
"Mourn the woman she was. Know the woman she is."
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,240
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,240
ML, very well put.

And when I see people cutting corners, another excuse is usually, "But we are different. It's not all cookie cutter." BUT IT IS. That is another beauty about this program. It doesn't matter which spouse had the A. It doesn't matter how long. If it was an EA or a PA. None of that matters to MB or the program. What matters is someone working the program.

And most importantly, any BS that uses this program, fully and completely, will be better in the end, even if their marriage ends. That is simply amazing.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
It is very frustrating. While exposure is no guarantee, it does provide the BEST CHANCE possible. And the sooner, the better. We have seen affairs killed the day they were exposed.

The longer one waits to expose, the less chance it has of killing the affair dead.

BillCarolina, your wife's affair went on for so long [she had already moved out] that I had my doubts. Hopefully, it sent the affair into its death throes. Your wife is angry at you for interfering in her affair, and that is a good thing! Hopefully she will come around some day. smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Ways to recover your marriage using the MB resources, ranking from the fastest, most effective horse down:

1. Marriage Builders online programs. They range from home study programs to guided courses that assign you a coach and walk you through the weekly lessons. In some of them you have daily access to Dr Harley. Courses range from $195 to $995. My H and I went through the online version and had remarkable results. here

2. Phone coaching with Dr. Harley's children, Steve Harley or Dr. Jennifer Chalmers. The last I checked, these sessions were about $200 a session. They assess your situation and give you an action PLAN. They are often successful in motivating reluctant spouses. They don't waste your time talking about your childhood or your feelings. They get right down to the business of transforming your marriage.

3. Do It Yourself. I have known many couples here who transformed their marriages using the books and listening to the radio show. This is a great way to do it if you are self disciplined and committed. Depending on your situation, you could use the books Surviving an Affair [for affairs obviously], Lovebusters, and get the workbook that has all the questionaires in it, Five Steps to Romantic Love. If there is no affair, substitute the book, HNHN for SAA.

The Harleys sell these books cheap on this website. OR you can buy used books from Amazon OR you can get free books by emailing Dr Harley a question for his radio show. I got most of my initial books free over the years from calling his radio show.

The book Effective Marriage Counseling will give you a complete step by step process that might help too. We have had members who brought that book to their own marriage counselors and asked him to walk them through the program so that is another way it can be done. That book has a survey in it that measures your progress. Your MC can use it to measure his progress.

Transforming your marriage does not take long if you are diligent and committed.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Additionally, the radio show is a GREAT FREE resource that will help you understand the program. here If you get stuck, you can always email the Harleys and speak to them. They love to help others and love giving away books.

There is a also a free MB iphone/ipad app.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,254
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,254
Yes it is. A very good help!

Here is a media example of what can happen if you do not have NO CONTACT FOR LIFE WITH AN AFFAIR PARTNER.

Ya'll followed recently the exposure of the affair of ww Michaele Salahi and her bh Tareq? Very very sad situation (although they both are not by far people I admire).

Apparently she rekindled an old romance with Neil Schon of Journey and Schon befriended her husband too. They all became good friends. So good that Neil was allowed to spend the night at their home, and they all were frequently around each other.

Schon conveniently divorced his wife in 2009, and then this week, Salahi left her husband for her affair partner after she claimed to be going to get "her hair done".

The betrayed husband should have NEVER allowed his wife to be around her xboyfriend ever. NC for life with an x, no INAPPROPRIATE FRIENDSHIPS OF OPPOSITE SEX.

He had been an old boyfriend, and they started right up again. With a two year underground affair apparently.

How many people we hear from claim that their xow or xom or xboyfriend or xgirlfriend is harmless? That they KNOW that the relationship is over, but do not have extraordinary precautions in place? TONS.

This is something that must stick. Whether om or ow or with an old boyfriend or girlfriend, that tie must be severed for life or it will encroach on the marriage.


Change happens by listening and then starting a dialogue with the people who are doing something you don't believe is right. ~Jane Goodall
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
bump


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
We have several repeat affairs on the board right now. People who came here years ago and cut corners on this program. Their marriages have suffered REPEAT AFFAIRS. So, if you think you can cut corners just do some reading here and see your future!

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley in Requirements for Recovery
"The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works."


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,344
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,344
And for those of us who get an OC out of the deal, AND STILL CUT CORNERS, it's a sure fire way to get an OC#2.

The moment I followed the plan to the hilt, is the moment our lives changed for the better.


I never had to take the Kobayashi Maru test until now. What do you think of my solution?

O'hana means family, and family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten.

My Story

Recovered!
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,311
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,311
Question regarding cutting corners:

I am in plan B, but I text and e-mail my STBWX. We do not have casual conversations, only business regarding arrangements for the children and divorce business. Early on, yes, I did volley some DJ's at her that I shouldn't have. Conversely, I have sent her several e-mails and letters asking her to reconsider her decision to be with her AP and leave the family. Sending these letters are important because I had a short Plan A.

Keeping in contact has helped keep things running smoothly and has helped me maintain a good relationship with my in-laws who live close by and who are close with my daughters. They have been a great source of support.

In my judgment these modifications do not apply to what MelodyLane is writing about, but I'd like her input and yours too.

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,428
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,428
Originally Posted By: Justthe3ofus
In my judgment these modifications do not apply to what MelodyLane is writing about, but I'd like her input and yours too.

Hi, I am no vet and still learning but I thought I would chime in until a vet arrives (and they will correct me if I am wrong!)

Originally Posted By: Justthe3ofus
Question regarding cutting corners:
I am in plan B, but I text and e-mail my STBWX.

If contact is taking place directly and not going through an IM, then you are not in Plan B.

Originally Posted By: Justthe30fus
We do not have casual conversations, only business regarding arrangements for the children and divorce business.

IMO you should not be discussing divorce unless you do not want to recover your marriage. It is sending the wrong message to your WW. YOU will only have contact if she meets your Plan B Letter conditions to recover your marriage. Divorce discussions should be directed through your solicitors.

Originally Posted By: Justthe3ofus
Early on, yes, I did volley some DJ's at her that I shouldn't have. Conversely, I have sent her several e-mails and letters asking her to reconsider her decision to be with her AP and leave the family. Sending these letters are important because I had a short Plan A.

So early on you were lovebusting, a sure way to reinforce WW's decision to be wayward. Plan B is partly about letting the OM try to meet all of her needs, and likely not. Then let him lovebust. As for sending her letters... this is likely meeting some of her EN's. That is NOT what Plan B is about. Your PBL should have already outlined your desire to recover the marriage if your conditions are met.

Have you spoken with Dr H about this contact? I have read that he sometimes advises people to do olive branches... but I am concerned your letters are more likely to be seen as lovebusting.

And I also worry that your own recovery will be delayed by this contact with WW.


Me (BW): 35
Married 1999 with no kids, DDay July 2011, OC born September 2012, Divorce final November 2012.

WXH (Gollum) is corrupted by his A, and now forever bound to it.

Plan B has set me free.

"Mourn the man he was. Know the man he is."
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Great thread Mel.

Does it make sense that you would not cut corners on the most important relationship you have with another human being?

Yeah, I think it does, as it is a labor of love anyway

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,311
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,311
I hope I'm not hijacking Melody's thread. Is so, please respond on my thread in the "Divorcing/Divorced" forum. What say you, Melody?

Oh, and thank you Caracal. A lot to think about.

Last edited by Justthe3ofus; 01/15/12 01:44 AM.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Justthe3ofus


In my judgment these modifications do not apply to what MelodyLane is writing about, but I'd like her input and yours too.


Hi Justthe3ofus, your situation is EXACTLY what I mean when I warn against cutting corners. By cutting corners, you have negated the entire purpose of Plan B. In fact, you are not even in Plan B, you are in what Dr Harley calls "Plan C," for "compromise," which is the most likely to lead to divorce.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,311
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,311
Well, now I feel like need some additional advice with my situation. I'll take this over to my thread in the Divorced/Divorcing form to avoid sidetracking this thread.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 44 guests, and 46 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Olivia 80, Brad344, Bobbyboy341, Steve123, kenmw
71,696 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,537
Posts2,322,679
Members71,697
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5