Thank you for sharing this.
Very enlightening.

I definitely saw the sense of entitlement in my WXH just before the last Dday. He had climbed the corporate ladder and thought he was all that and resented the heck out of me for being a SAHM even though I was a good wife and took care of everything at home so he could focus on his career.

i agree with this! that entitlement issue has bothered me alot.

I understand this is about people in my situation, not for people in my situation. I just thought I could toss in my perspective of how things happened for me. I think it is a great thread.

I want to clearify, my WW had her first A's 15 years ago. The discovery day from those A's occured 10 years ago. We found this sight a short time after that DDay.
Back then we did do a lot of chat, and used the board as many did in those days as more of a support group, more for making us feel better rather than encourage and instruct on MB principals. It did help alot to get over the pain of the A's but it didn't help alot in the recovery from the A's.

We did get nearly all the books that applied at the time, read SAA, His Needs, Love Busters, and even bought the HNHN Workbook (never did the workbook). We followed what we read in those books to the best of our understanding. We ended up with a great marriage as most who recover describe. Perhaps we didn't go to extremes with some of those thing like EPs. We did pick up, sell the house and move across the country to remove ourselves from the environment that helped cause the A's.

Looking back, I believe we did what we thought was necessary to recover and felt we did quite a bit to recover and were successful. The number 1 thing that I believe we didn't do that would have prevented a relapse is we lost sight and didn't continue to implement the principals into our lives every day since. 10 years ago, we promised each other we would read the books every 2 years. When we felt things were going great, we either forgot or just had the attitude of why should we when its going so well.

As for my thoughts on encouraging someone like myself on to either work on it or give up an move on, I have to say if you haven't been down that road it would be easy to say you should give up. I know 11 years ago, I would have told a person who had been cheated on to toss in the give up. One year ago if a person in my situation came to me I would have said give up it's not worth it. Now here I am, never know how you'll react until you've experienced it.

I can't say enough about the good folks who have helped and encouraged me. Thank you all!

Senn, do you know that Dr Harley tells people to give up every week on his radio show? And on the weekend forum? It has nothing to do with a reaction, but with the possibility of recovery. A reaction will not ensure your success when you have a spouse who is on her 6-7th affair and is no closer to establishing extraordinary precautions than she was when she had the affair.

And see, you still don't understand why you keep getting hit by the bus. It has nothing to do with reading the books every 2 years. Reading the books will have no value if you don't affair proof your marriage. Reading HNHN can never compensate for a complete lack of EPs.

In your case, it is obvious why your wife is on affair #6-8. You don't have integrated lifestyles that would prevent it. Not only does she work an opposite shift which makes it easy for her to chase men [she chased your best friend and the car repair man] but she has a night job where she works with all men! How crazy is that to have a serial cheater work with all men?

So see, its not reading books again that will help you. It is changing your lives in a way that makes it impossible for her to have affairs. And she has not lifted a finger to do that. EVER.

It wouldn't be responsible to encourage a person to stay in a marriage that is doomed to failure. Harley sure doesn't do that. It has nothing to do with how the BS "feels," but everything to do with the possibility of recovery. When there is no possibility of recovery, when the WS does nothing to protect the marriage, then Plan B and then Plan D is warranted. Marriage Builders is NOT marriage at all cost.

p.s. you brought the environment with you. The environment is your wife when she is ALONE with men.

Senn,


Well, as you see now, those EPs are far from extreme, they are necessary, an absolute must, because you don't know better.

After being married for 17 years and 2,5+ years into recovery, I know and it feels like that the age of my true marriage is this, the age of our recovery. MB marriage is very different from the marriage where "I knew better". First of all, I truly don't know better, because I have to read them books constantly, read and post here as much as I have time, discuss MB with my H and practise it with him every day and do it properly --- this last one is actually the key, living the programme in its entirety. Only then there is hope for someone like me and someone like your WW.

Exactly.

Recon and Mel picked up on something I overlooked.


EP's are extreme?
Really?
In poker, this would be a "tell".

(I was going to link Wikipedia's explanation of Poker Tell .... but they are currently shut down in protest. Look it up tomorrow)

Sennipa gives his position away with this one remark he made.

I can't think of anything more "extreme" than a spouse who has 6-8 affairs.

I believe this to be VERY true. Thanks!

Your situation is a case-in-point here. But clearly, not the only one. That is why I wanted to do this thread. To study what the dynamics here on the BS and WS side.

Now THIS is VERY true!!

Mel,
As you know, I am getting to a stage where I'm not sure if this marriage is what I want. WW is stepping up, but I don't know if that can save our marriage. A little part of me has hope, and I will give it a chance for now.

My point to re-reading the books is to remind us of what we need to do to keep a healthy and safe marriage. We used to recomend the books to freinds, as they have a lot of tools to make a better marriage - even if you haven't experienced an A.

Despite some advice not to, I have been re-reading the books and believe me, there is a lot a person can forget in 10 years that can/could help prevent another A. Not only did we not implement and maintain EPs we also lost sight of some of the basic concepts that we practiced 7-8-9 years ago (and despite what your assesment is, we did practice them). We lost alot of that with time. Dr Harley does say that implementing all of these things will help prevent another A, not just one thing. We maintained some of the principals but not all, and we failed- that is my assesment of how this happened again.

Had we revisited the books and discussed these things throughout our recovery over the past 10 years, I believe this would have prevented our current situation.

Your wife failed.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:p2-c7LMP1uoJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_%28poker%29+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Senningpa, I am new to your situation, so pardon me if I am off anywhere in my analysis. And not to take away from this thread...let me say that your last statement is 100% false. Reading the books, becoming an expert on all of this stuff (both you and your wife) while good, would not have prevented this. I mean, you both understood these concepts all along.

If you had to narrow it down to ONE thing, what is it that would have kept this from happening? Or let me say it this way:

What is it about you and/or your wife that allows this to keep happening?

Answer: Your wife's lack of boundaries.

Plain and simple. And she knows this. You know this.

All of the concepts, all of the UA, and meeting needs, etc are POINTLESS if she is never going to put up boundaries around your relationship in order to protect it.

It is that simple.

You are picking my extreme statement apart. I did not call EPs extreme. WE followed the EPs at first, and with many of the tools and concepts, we lost sight, bent the rules and even discarded the rules. As time heals all wounds, we forgot what we learned and felt secure in our marriage. I am guilty, WW is definetely guilty.

You are right, it is not just "one thing" as you suggest, but you have to FIRST implement ONE THING in order to have a marriage: EP's. So none of those other things are relevant if you don't do the first step becuase you won't have a marriage to save.

That ONE THING is implementing a LIFESTYLE that complements and protects the marriage. That has never been done. And you have been back here for 6 weeks <?> and EPs are STILL not in place.

In a recovered marriage, you don't have to read a book to remember your LIFESTYLE. And let me explain. My H and I have an integrated lifestyle and make career choices/changes that COMPLEMENT our marriage. That is because we have a recovered marriage. When my H is offered promotions, etc, he first asks if this will complement our marriage. If there is travel involved, weird working hours, excessive epxosure to females, he doesn't take it.

My point is that reading the book will not help you one bit if you have not implemented EP's. Reading the books will not protect your marriage from harm.

Your wife failed.